The Klan come to Canberra. Gungahlin mosque stirs up the racist nuts

Deref said :

colourful sydney racing identity said :

p1 said :

HenryBG said :

Call your stupid ideas a “Religion”, and suddenly you’ve got a sacred cow that nobody is allowed to criticise. According to the dim lefties in our midst, anyway.

It seems to me that is argument it dominated on on side (lets call that side “lefties”) who think religion is harmless fun (for people with imaginary friends), and that there are some nutters out there who use religion as an excuse. And on the other side it is dominated by people who think that all muslims are violent women repressing militant jihadists – religion isn’t the bad thing, other peoples religions is the bad thing.

Is this accurate?

I am a leftie and abhor most religions, but islam more than others. The biggest problem with islam is that it has not gone through any process of reformation.

I’m a “leftie” and so are most of my friends, most of whom think that religion is the biggest scam ever invented. I’d say that more of us decry religion than do the righties.

I find Islam particularly noxious, but only at the moment and only marginally more than others, most of which have been equally noxious at one time or another, and many of which continue to be so in more out-of-the-way places.

That’s a pretty vicious outpouring for a leftie. You will be lucky get away with that without a Fatwa being issued.

Deref said :

colourful sydney racing identity said :

p1 said :

HenryBG said :

Call your stupid ideas a “Religion”, and suddenly you’ve got a sacred cow that nobody is allowed to criticise. According to the dim lefties in our midst, anyway.

It seems to me that is argument it dominated on on side (lets call that side “lefties”) who think religion is harmless fun (for people with imaginary friends), and that there are some nutters out there who use religion as an excuse. And on the other side it is dominated by people who think that all muslims are violent women repressing militant jihadists – religion isn’t the bad thing, other peoples religions is the bad thing.

Is this accurate?

I am a leftie and abhor most religions, but islam more than others. The biggest problem with islam is that it has not gone through any process of reformation.

I’m a “leftie” and so are most of my friends, most of whom think that religion is the biggest scam ever invented. I’d say that more of us decry religion than do the righties.

I find Islam particularly noxious, but only at the moment and only marginally more than others, most of which have been equally noxious at one time or another, and many of which continue to be so in more out-of-the-way places.

I wouldn’t say I’m a ‘leftie’ or a ‘rightie’ as it’s just a label – I tend to have views on either side depending on the topic. I also think all religion is a bit weird but who am I to tell people how to live.

Of the muslims I’ve met in Canberra all but one I would say are normal people like you and I. Hold down a public service job, some are women and they work, those with kids have both sexes going to normal schools, some play cricket, one plays golf, some even drink alcohol. None of them ever tried to push their beliefs on to anyone else.

The extremists, or anyone that doesn’t respect others can all go to hell. In fact the extremists and bully boys on all sides should get themselves an island and battle each other out while the rest of us live in peace.

But comparing the 1 billion plus muslims in the world with people like the Taliban, is like comparing western culture with the nazi’s (godwins).

colourful sydney racing identity said :

p1 said :

HenryBG said :

Call your stupid ideas a “Religion”, and suddenly you’ve got a sacred cow that nobody is allowed to criticise. According to the dim lefties in our midst, anyway.

It seems to me that is argument it dominated on on side (lets call that side “lefties”) who think religion is harmless fun (for people with imaginary friends), and that there are some nutters out there who use religion as an excuse. And on the other side it is dominated by people who think that all muslims are violent women repressing militant jihadists – religion isn’t the bad thing, other peoples religions is the bad thing.

Is this accurate?

I am a leftie and abhor most religions, but islam more than others. The biggest problem with islam is that it has not gone through any process of reformation.

I’m a “leftie” and so are most of my friends, most of whom think that religion is the biggest scam ever invented. I’d say that more of us decry religion than do the righties.

I find Islam particularly noxious, but only at the moment and only marginally more than others, most of which have been equally noxious at one time or another, and many of which continue to be so in more out-of-the-way places.

p1 said :

HenryBG said :

Call your stupid ideas a “Religion”, and suddenly you’ve got a sacred cow that nobody is allowed to criticise. According to the dim lefties in our midst, anyway.

It seems to me that is argument it dominated on on side (lets call that side “lefties”) who think religion is harmless fun (for people with imaginary friends), and that there are some nutters out there who use religion as an excuse. And on the other side it is dominated by people who think that all muslims are violent women repressing militant jihadists – religion isn’t the bad thing, other peoples religions is the bad thing.

Is this accurate?

I am a leftie and abhor most religions, but islam more than others. The biggest problem with islam is that it has not gone through any process of reformation.

I watched the video on page 7 and am appalled by what that woman said. How about she learn what Islamic culture is, not use her hearsay sample size of one murder that occured somewhere someplace in time as a cultural norm.

I don’t live in Gunghalin, but if there was a mosque going up in my suburb i couldn’t care two hoots.

Eyeball In A Quart Jar Of Snot said :

Naive?

I’ve sat in Morocco with women and artists and drunk Moroccan produced beer and wine.

I’ve known people of all those persuasions who’ve lived in both of those countries.

I think you need to travel there and experience what they’re really like, and erase those silly misconceptions once and for all.

I’ve some fantastic evenings with Moroccan wine (and people) in Marrakesh, Tangier, Fes and Essaouira to name a few. Never really liked their beer but that was a personal taste.

If you are looking for hospitality and welcome I can highly recommend Jordan and Iran as travel destinations as well. Great countyside, history, cities and without a doubt the friendliest people you will ever meet. My wife agrees and cant wait to go back, especially to Iran.

In fact, we both agree, we have never felt safer or more welcome anywhere in the world than in any of the Middle East countries we have been to.

Keep away from the locally produced green label “Stella” in Egypt though. The gold label is fine, but the green is a real hit and miss beer.

2%…..reminder the percentage of the population at the 2011 census that professed to an Islamic faith was 2%….

I am happier as the “no religion” crowd has jumped into 2nd place, when you divide Christianity into it’s component parts….divide and conquer!

HenryBG said :

Eyeball In A Quart Jar Of Snot said :

And personally, I would love to live in beautiful countries such as Morocco and Egypt.

Yes, absolutely wonderful.

Unless you’re a woman.
Or a homosexual.
Or a Christian.
Or an atheist.
Or an artist.

Any idea how Christians are treated in Egypt, since the muslims took over? Why not look into it before making us laugh with your naive fantasies about distant Utopiae.

Naive?

I’ve sat in Morocco with women and artists and drunk Moroccan produced beer and wine.

I’ve known people of all those persuasions who’ve lived in both of those countries.

I think you need to travel there and experience what they’re really like, and erase those silly misconceptions once and for all.

p1 said :

dungfungus said :

There are lots of references to this proposed mosque having “500 seats”
I have never seen a mosque with 1 seat let alone 500.
I am missing something here?

This is all a scam to slip a large chair shop into the town centre without the obvious public outcry which would occur if they did it openly.

Just how large will these chairs be?

dungfungus said :

There are lots of references to this proposed mosque having “500 seats”
I have never seen a mosque with 1 seat let alone 500.
I am missing something here?

you are right. 500 person capacity would be more accurate

dungfungus said :

There are lots of references to this proposed mosque having “500 seats”
I have never seen a mosque with 1 seat let alone 500.
I am missing something here?

This is all a scam to slip a large chair shop into the town centre without the obvious public outcry which would occur if they did it openly.

There are lots of references to this proposed mosque having “500 seats”
I have never seen a mosque with 1 seat let alone 500.
I am missing something here?

HenryBG said :

Call your stupid ideas a “Religion”, and suddenly you’ve got a sacred cow that nobody is allowed to criticise. According to the dim lefties in our midst, anyway.

It seems to me that is argument it dominated on on side (lets call that side “lefties”) who think religion is harmless fun (for people with imaginary friends), and that there are some nutters out there who use religion as an excuse. And on the other side it is dominated by people who think that all muslims are violent women repressing militant jihadists – religion isn’t the bad thing, other peoples religions is the bad thing.

Is this accurate?

Eyeball In A Quart Jar Of Snot said :

And personally, I would love to live in beautiful countries such as Morocco and Egypt.

Yes, absolutely wonderful.

Unless you’re a woman.
Or a homosexual.
Or a Christian.
Or an atheist.
Or an artist.

Any idea how Christians are treated in Egypt, since the muslims took over? Why not look into it before making us laugh with your naive fantasies about distant Utopiae.

Deckard said :

Uneducated drivel… You embarrass our country.

Yes! Re-open the Gulags! Re-education for all!

knuckles said :

miz said :

For all that various Christian denominations have differing practices, all hold the basis tenets of Christianity and still have a similar cultural outlook. Therefore, another Christian place of worship is not going to be a problem.

Pretty sure I wouldn’t want a branch of the Westboro Baptists building a church in my neighbourhood

I wouldn’t mind. Think of how it would bring all the community together. Everyone would hate them and the community would become a lot closer as a result…

On the actual topic, All schools (including independent/religious ones) have to follow a curriculum which includes Australain values (i.e. gender equality, non discrimination etc).

I don’t think this applies to religious institutions though. But I look after children from all cultures at work and I have noticed that muslim families where both parents work are just as common as anglo famiilies where both parents work. So I hardly doubt this mosque will teach against Australian values.

The only issue I have with it is that it is 500 seats but only a small carpark. I am aware people will carpool/use ACTION or walk to the mosque if they live nearby but I would prefer to see a carpark that’d hold 300 or so cars. If they can fix this then BRING ON THE MOSQUE 😀

miz said :

I agree with Henry on this issue. Please read on. In previous posts in this thread I have provided evidence – in the form of a documentary, a book written by an insider, and information indicating that the ACT Govt gives preferential treatment to Muslims (why, who knows but it certainly looks very bad).

I think the facts speak for themselves. Providing land to the Islamic community for schools or mosques (particularly gratis or for a pittance) just encourages their primitive ideas that govt should be a theocracy and that women are possessions of their male relatives. In Islamic countries, young girls are maimed so male family members can be sure they will remain virgins (genital mutilation); killed (honour killings) and prevented from even leaving their house without a male, to preserve the male dominated ‘culture’ they wish to preserve. These things are not simply the actions/ideas of extremists, they are endemic views held by Australian Muslims and are practised in Western countries – see http://www.abc.net.au/news/2010-02-06/female-circumcision-happening-in-australia/2594496
The very word ‘Islam’ actually MEANS ‘submission’ (ie, if you don’t like it, you must submit in order t receive your alleged reward in heaven).

If Muslim children are prevented from integrating into Australian life, they will grow up thinking this is the norm. This treatment of any women, who live in this country should be anathema to us. It is up to us, as Australians, to stand up to this, and we should stop hiding behind the fallacy that it is somehow a ‘good thing’ to allow Muslims to be separate and continue with these practices.

For all that various Christian denominations have differing practices, all hold the basis tenets of Christianity and still have a similar cultural outlook. Therefore, another Christian place of worship is not going to be a problem. Conversely, Islamic countries are horrible places no Australian would want to live in. We should not be ‘sentencing’ powerless Muslims in Australia (mainly female) to a similar fate. This is why it is far more complex than just saying, ‘let them build a church, it won’t hurt anyone’. Actually, it will. I don’t think it is bigoted at all to draw a line in the sand. Some may argue that legislation does this. I would argue that it has not prevented women in Western nations (UK, Canada) from being so culturally isolated that they are prevented from getting the very information that would have helped them.

Uneducated drivel… You embarrass our country.

Eyeball you obviously have not looked at the evidence I provided. That clearly indicates this is not a minority problem – they are not rare or a result of extremism. They are here, in Australia, now, in a mainstream kinda way.

dungfungus said :

Actually, HenryBG is spot on regarding most issues on this blog but he needs to do more research on whether climate change, as seen by the alarmists, actually exists at all.

You’re wrong Dungfingers – I can spot bad analysis when I see it, and climate denialism rests on the most transparently stupid misinterpretations of facts and bucketloads of outright made-up bulldust.

If you’re not happy about a few thousand fraudulent foreigners invading Australia every year via Christmas Island, you just wait until climate-related economic issues cause that trickle to turn into a flood. The fact the RAN at the moment is facilitating the invasion doesn’t bode well for them being of any use when stern measures are called for to keep them out.

knuckles said :

miz said :

For all that various Christian denominations have differing practices, all hold the basis tenets of Christianity and still have a similar cultural outlook. Therefore, another Christian place of worship is not going to be a problem.

Pretty sure I wouldn’t want a branch of the Westboro Baptists building a church in my neighbourhood

Yeah – that lot should be hunted down.
The Exclusive Brethren, for another, should be rounded-up and prevented from abusing any more children. One way or another. They are pretty evil people. Like most evangelicals and charsmatics, really – no apparent familiarity with the message of Jesus.
Then there’s the 7th-day adventists, who prevent children from having birthdays. Freaks.

Call your stupid ideas a “Religion”, and suddenly you’ve got a sacred cow that nobody is allowed to criticise. According to the dim lefties in our midst, anyway.

Personally, I like to call stupid ideas when I see them, and I’m happy to call Islam the way I see it. I’m suspicious of people who want to “call the Human Rights Commission” when their stupid ideas are criticised.
What is this? Communist Russia? Political Correctness and compulsory Groupthink? These are the signs of a society on its way down the toilet.

miz said :

For all that various Christian denominations have differing practices, all hold the basis tenets of Christianity and still have a similar cultural outlook. Therefore, another Christian place of worship is not going to be a problem.

Pretty sure I wouldn’t want a branch of the Westboro Baptists building a church in my neighbourhood

nazasaurus said :

I have no problem with the islamic community building a mosque in Gungahlin however it’s when concessions start to be made to pander to extremists ideologies that I get frightened and dismayed. Worship in peace, but dont isolate yourselves and your children. In turn, dont make me feel like I dont belong in certain public areas because it’s been deemed ‘yours’ and I might be dressed inappropriately. To those saying we need proof look at this concession made in Melbourne to the Jewish orthodox community. As someone who has visited Mea Shearim in Jerusalem, and been frightened and uncomfortable the whole time (being chased by a group of crazies cos youre using a phone anyone) I really object to this sort of thing creeping into Australia. You want orthodox Judaism go to Jerusalem, you want Sharia go live in Saudi Arabia.http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/cable-loop-lets-melbournes-orthodox-jews-feel-at-home-20111120-1npdn.html

I don’t see how implementing a “metaphorical” fence around an orthodox Jewish neighbourhood that only applies to orthodox Jews and their faith is in any way a bad thing?

You know what would really be a big problem?

If everything and everybody was the same. That would really suck.

I have no problem with the islamic community building a mosque in Gungahlin however it’s when concessions start to be made to pander to extremists ideologies that I get frightened and dismayed. Worship in peace, but dont isolate yourselves and your children. In turn, dont make me feel like I dont belong in certain public areas because it’s been deemed ‘yours’ and I might be dressed inappropriately. To those saying we need proof look at this concession made in Melbourne to the Jewish orthodox community. As someone who has visited Mea Shearim in Jerusalem, and been frightened and uncomfortable the whole time (being chased by a group of crazies cos youre using a phone anyone) I really object to this sort of thing creeping into Australia. You want orthodox Judaism go to Jerusalem, you want Sharia go live in Saudi Arabia.http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/cable-loop-lets-melbournes-orthodox-jews-feel-at-home-20111120-1npdn.html

miz said :

I agree with Henry on this issue. Please read on. In previous posts in this thread I have provided evidence – in the form of a documentary, a book written by an insider, and information indicating that the ACT Govt gives preferential treatment to Muslims (why, who knows but it certainly looks very bad).

I think the facts speak for themselves. Providing land to the Islamic community for schools or mosques (particularly gratis or for a pittance) just encourages their primitive ideas that govt should be a theocracy and that women are possessions of their male relatives. In Islamic countries, young girls are maimed so male family members can be sure they will remain virgins (genital mutilation); killed (honour killings) and prevented from even leaving their house without a male, to preserve the male dominated ‘culture’ they wish to preserve. These things are not simply the actions/ideas of extremists, they are endemic views held by Australian Muslims and are practised in Western countries – see http://www.abc.net.au/news/2010-02-06/female-circumcision-happening-in-australia/2594496
The very word ‘Islam’ actually MEANS ‘submission’ (ie, if you don’t like it, you must submit in order t receive your alleged reward in heaven).

If Muslim children are prevented from integrating into Australian life, they will grow up thinking this is the norm. This treatment of any women, who live in this country should be anathema to us. It is up to us, as Australians, to stand up to this, and we should stop hiding behind the fallacy that it is somehow a ‘good thing’ to allow Muslims to be separate and continue with these practices.

For all that various Christian denominations have differing practices, all hold the basis tenets of Christianity and still have a similar cultural outlook. Therefore, another Christian place of worship is not going to be a problem. Conversely, Islamic countries are horrible places no Australian would want to live in. We should not be ‘sentencing’ powerless Muslims in Australia (mainly female) to a similar fate. This is why it is far more complex than just saying, ‘let them build a church, it won’t hurt anyone’. Actually, it will. I don’t think it is bigoted at all to draw a line in the sand. Some may argue that legislation does this. I would argue that it has not prevented women in Western nations (UK, Canada) from being so culturally isolated that they are prevented from getting the very information that would have helped them.

You really need to stop trying to present your misguided views as fact, and using rare extremist cases of abuse in Islam as some sort of norm.

And personally, I would love to live in beautiful countries such as Morocco and Egypt.

In fact, I really think you should travel to some of these countries so you can at least catch a glimpse of what these people and their cultures are REALLY like.

Because it pains me to inform you that it’s nothing like those rare stories you read about on yahoo, ninemsn, or fed through the AAP news wires.

Because it’s truly unfortunate that when you’re living in white suburban Canberra, surrounded by like minded white suburban Canberrans, and you construct your view of the outside world from stereotypes and fiction.

miz said :

I agree with Henry on this issue. Please read on. In previous posts in this thread I have provided evidence – in the form of a documentary, a book written by an insider, and information indicating that the ACT Govt gives preferential treatment to Muslims (why, who knows but it certainly looks very bad).

I think the facts speak for themselves. Providing land to the Islamic community for schools or mosques (particularly gratis or for a pittance) just encourages their primitive ideas that govt should be a theocracy and that women are possessions of their male relatives.

The charging policy for schools and places of worship in the ACT is that they receive the land for virtually nothing. This policy is a planning/charging policy not a morals or religious preference policy (you know that whole pesky church versus state thing) and does not have any provisos for whether worldwide, certain members of the religion or school for that matter do things which are illegal or immoral.

If that was the case there would be very few schools or places of worship in the ACT.

The facts are that all the churches/temples/mosques/schools built in the past 20 years or so have the land granted to them under this policy. No discrimination, bias or conspiracy here.

Interesting theory though if I have it right, that the state should charge religions they dont agree with and give discounts for land to those that they do?

I agree with Henry on this issue. Please read on. In previous posts in this thread I have provided evidence – in the form of a documentary, a book written by an insider, and information indicating that the ACT Govt gives preferential treatment to Muslims (why, who knows but it certainly looks very bad).

I think the facts speak for themselves. Providing land to the Islamic community for schools or mosques (particularly gratis or for a pittance) just encourages their primitive ideas that govt should be a theocracy and that women are possessions of their male relatives. In Islamic countries, young girls are maimed so male family members can be sure they will remain virgins (genital mutilation); killed (honour killings) and prevented from even leaving their house without a male, to preserve the male dominated ‘culture’ they wish to preserve. These things are not simply the actions/ideas of extremists, they are endemic views held by Australian Muslims and are practised in Western countries – see http://www.abc.net.au/news/2010-02-06/female-circumcision-happening-in-australia/2594496
The very word ‘Islam’ actually MEANS ‘submission’ (ie, if you don’t like it, you must submit in order t receive your alleged reward in heaven).

If Muslim children are prevented from integrating into Australian life, they will grow up thinking this is the norm. This treatment of any women, who live in this country should be anathema to us. It is up to us, as Australians, to stand up to this, and we should stop hiding behind the fallacy that it is somehow a ‘good thing’ to allow Muslims to be separate and continue with these practices.

For all that various Christian denominations have differing practices, all hold the basis tenets of Christianity and still have a similar cultural outlook. Therefore, another Christian place of worship is not going to be a problem. Conversely, Islamic countries are horrible places no Australian would want to live in. We should not be ‘sentencing’ powerless Muslims in Australia (mainly female) to a similar fate. This is why it is far more complex than just saying, ‘let them build a church, it won’t hurt anyone’. Actually, it will. I don’t think it is bigoted at all to draw a line in the sand. Some may argue that legislation does this. I would argue that it has not prevented women in Western nations (UK, Canada) from being so culturally isolated that they are prevented from getting the very information that would have helped them.

Cantoangel said :

Wow I was going to lol at HenryBG’s initial comment as sarcasm but then I realized they were serious. What a shame that the most educated can be so buried in so much s*** that they lose rationality and choose to only see what they want to see.

Actually, HenryBG is spot on regarding most issues on this blog but he needs to do more research on whether climate change, as seen by the alarmists, actually exists at all.

HenryBG said :

Jim Jones said :

Blaming the actions of fundamentalist nutjobs on the ‘culture’ of an entire religion, nice work.

That’s right – when the Taliban blew up the Buddhas, there were demonstrations and riots all over the world by muslims concerned and disgusted by this example of fundamentalism.

Oops, my mistake. Not a peep from the so-called “non-fundamentalist” muslims.
They did riot against free speech by Danish cartoonists, however.

Considering the dearth of art to survive the muslim occupation of Spain, some might surely be forgiven for believing that muslims actually enjoy destroying cultures in order to drag the inhabitants of occupied countries back to the dark ages.

Imagine lefties falling over themselves to defend a political ideology dedicated to actively colonising, deliberate destroying of culture, violent persecution of women, and hatred of free speech.
Simply amazing.
And lefties tell us they consider themselves “progressive”.

Are they being dishonest about their agenda? Or just completely and utterly stupid?

Jim Jones said :

Using this logic we can confidently state that all Christians are kiddy fiddlers, all Buddhists are terrorists, and all Hindus are corrupt sportsmen.

And yet…..Christianity is associated with civilisation as we know it, whereas Islam still hasn’t left the dark ages.

Of course, if you want to talk about kiddie-fiddling, it’s a little hard for an honest intellect to go past the institutionalised paedophilia rampant in islamic culture.
We know Jesus wasn’t a paedophile.

Moderate Muslims will argue that among their faith, only about 1% are extreme fundamentalists.
Given that there are estimated to be 1 billion Muslims in the world, that means 1 million are extremists which considering the dastardly acts they carry out is 1 million too many.
Also, one never hears the other 99% condeming the acts of the extreme 1%. I am very apprehensive about further Muslim migration to the Western world.

HenryBG said :

Jim Jones said :

Blaming the actions of fundamentalist nutjobs on the ‘culture’ of an entire religion, nice work.

That’s right – when the Taliban blew up the Buddhas, there were demonstrations and riots all over the world by muslims concerned and disgusted by this example of fundamentalism.

Oops, my mistake. Not a peep from the so-called “non-fundamentalist” muslims.
They did riot against free speech by Danish cartoonists, however.

Considering the dearth of art to survive the muslim occupation of Spain, some might surely be forgiven for believing that muslims actually enjoy destroying cultures in order to drag the inhabitants of occupied countries back to the dark ages.

Imagine lefties falling over themselves to defend a political ideology dedicated to actively colonising, deliberate destroying of culture, violent persecution of women, and hatred of free speech.
Simply amazing.
And lefties tell us they consider themselves “progressive”.

Are they being dishonest about their agenda? Or just completely and utterly stupid?

Jim Jones said :

Using this logic we can confidently state that all Christians are kiddy fiddlers, all Buddhists are terrorists, and all Hindus are corrupt sportsmen.

And yet…..Christianity is associated with civilisation as we know it, whereas Islam still hasn’t left the dark ages.

Of course, if you want to talk about kiddie-fiddling, it’s a little hard for an honest intellect to go past the institutionalised paedophilia rampant in islamic culture.
We know Jesus wasn’t a paedophile.

Does a lack of hatred and bile for people make me a lefty? I guess it does if this is the example.

HenryBG said :

And yet…..Christianity is associated with civilisation as we know it, whereas Islam still hasn’t left the dark ages.

Really? one of the tiresome atheist arguments these days is about how much Christianity had done to ruin civilization, especially in the “dark ages”. Which were actually named for the lack of historical record at the time which Christians did not bring about, if anything they preserved and copied a lot of history that we read today. On the other hand Islam has also made significant contributions to civilization as well. While there were incidences in which people under the influence of religion have detracted from knowledge and civilization I think one the whole both Islam and Christianity have made more of a contribution.

Jim Jones said :

Blaming the actions of fundamentalist nutjobs on the ‘culture’ of an entire religion, nice work.

That’s right – when the Taliban blew up the Buddhas, there were demonstrations and riots all over the world by muslims concerned and disgusted by this example of fundamentalism.

Oops, my mistake. Not a peep from the so-called “non-fundamentalist” muslims.
They did riot against free speech by Danish cartoonists, however.

Considering the dearth of art to survive the muslim occupation of Spain, some might surely be forgiven for believing that muslims actually enjoy destroying cultures in order to drag the inhabitants of occupied countries back to the dark ages.

Imagine lefties falling over themselves to defend a political ideology dedicated to actively colonising, deliberate destroying of culture, violent persecution of women, and hatred of free speech.
Simply amazing.
And lefties tell us they consider themselves “progressive”.

Are they being dishonest about their agenda? Or just completely and utterly stupid?

Jim Jones said :

Using this logic we can confidently state that all Christians are kiddy fiddlers, all Buddhists are terrorists, and all Hindus are corrupt sportsmen.

And yet…..Christianity is associated with civilisation as we know it, whereas Islam still hasn’t left the dark ages.

Of course, if you want to talk about kiddie-fiddling, it’s a little hard for an honest intellect to go past the institutionalised paedophilia rampant in islamic culture.
We know Jesus wasn’t a paedophile.

HenryBG said :

Deref said :

JimCharles said :

…[M]uslims were building exquisite palaces and writing classical literature when Anglo Saxons hadn’t yet discovered how to make a chimney for their mud huts…

Indeed they were, though I’d argue that that was despite, rather than because of, their religion, whereas our descent into the European dark ages was, in large part, a direct result of ours.

It’s supremely ironic that it’s been the “western” rejection of religious mumbo jumbo that’s allowed us to progress, whereas it’s been Islam’s increasingly literal adherence to theirs has sent them in the opposite direction.

Precisely, and the people who still WoW! and goggle about the handful of cultural achievements they ascribe to Islamic culture seem to have missed what islamic culture did to the Buddhas of Bamiyan.

I’d really rather that my observations weren’t used to support that; they, and I, don’t.

The fundamentalist bastards who did that are no more representative of Islam than paedophile priests are representative of Christians. Not all Muslims are idiots and not all Christians are paedophiles. The achievements of some Islamic people during our “dark ages” were far from insignificant, but that had absolutely nothing to do with their religion.

In Cat’s Cradle, Kurt Vonnegut Jr. described the concept of “granfalloonsM“, groupings, some members of which imagine connects them with other members. His character Bokonon said of granfalloons:

“If you wish to study a granfalloon, just remove the skin of a toy balloon.”

Religions, like nationalities, are granfalloons – meaningless.

The only true thing you can say about religions is that their adherents believe in fairy tales. After that, it’s all up to individuals, and some are dickheads regardless of their religion (or lack of it), nationality, etc.

10 page document on how to lodge an objection?

It’s about three sentences on the ACTPLA website.

Incidently, you can lodge a comment of support as well as an objection

According to the Crimes:
A group opposed to the construction of a mosque in Gungahlin allegedly gave residents a detailed document instructing them how to successfully lodge objections to the proposed plans…
the 10-page document, published on an online news site yesterday…

So, has anyone found a copy they’re willing to share yet?
The Crimes have done well enough to get that far, but the next step would be to make it public.
Metadata is a wonderful thing.

Deref said :

Thanks for that most informative post, JimCharles. Another case of RA at its best.

JimCharles said :

There’s nothing wrong or frightening about an Australian muslim population, as long as it is Australian, understood and controlled properly, and it isn’t allowed to isolate or radicalise.

And therein lies the lesson. We’ve been moderately successful at that so far, with some few notable failures. Let’s hope we continue to be successful.

The kind of knee-jerk prejudice evinced by these self-styled “Concerned Citizens” is a significant factor working against that success. There’s nothing like feeling under siege to push people together into cultural and religious enclaves; and there’s nothing like genuine acceptance and inclusion to help people integrate into the broader community.

JimCharles said :

The “stone age” religion argument can’t be sustained,

Of course it can. The “Abrahamic” (and most other) religions are firmly grounded in the stone, bronze and iron ages, with a patina of modernity laid on top when it suits them. All three have used, and continue to use, their ancient fairy tales as excuses for what is simply good, old-fashioned barbarity. By comparison, the latecomers like Scientology appear relatively benign. I emphasise “relatively”.

JimCharles said :

…[M]uslims were building exquisite palaces and writing classical literature when Anglo Saxons hadn’t yet discovered how to make a chimney for their mud huts…

Indeed they were, though I’d argue that that was despite, rather than because of, their religion, whereas our descent into the European dark ages was, in large part, a direct result of ours.

It’s supremely ironic that it’s been the “western” rejection of religious mumbo jumbo that’s allowed us to progress, whereas it’s been Islam’s increasingly literal adherence to theirs has sent them in the opposite direction.

Nice work Deref. +1

Comic_and_Gamer_Nerd said :

wonder if these evil muslims of henrysbg’s would do jury duty or not?

I think Henry BG just became an internet meme.

Comic_and_Gamer_Nerd said :

wonder if these evil muslims of henrysbg’s would do jury duty or not?

BWAAA HAHA AHAHAHAHAHAAHA

wonder if these evil muslims of henrysbg’s would do jury duty or not?

HenryBG said :

Deref said :

JimCharles said :

…[M]uslims were building exquisite palaces and writing classical literature when Anglo Saxons hadn’t yet discovered how to make a chimney for their mud huts…

Indeed they were, though I’d argue that that was despite, rather than because of, their religion, whereas our descent into the European dark ages was, in large part, a direct result of ours.

It’s supremely ironic that it’s been the “western” rejection of religious mumbo jumbo that’s allowed us to progress, whereas it’s been Islam’s increasingly literal adherence to theirs has sent them in the opposite direction.

Precisely, and the people who still WoW! and goggle about the handful of cultural achievements they ascribe to Islamic culture seem to have missed what islamic culture did to the Buddhas of Bamiyan.

Blaming the actions of fundamentalist nutjobs on the ‘culture’ of an entire religion, nice work.

Using this logic we can confidently state that all Christians are kiddy fiddlers, all Buddhists are terrorists, and all Hindus are corrupt sportsmen.

HenryBG said :

Deref said :

JimCharles said :

…[M]uslims were building exquisite palaces and writing classical literature when Anglo Saxons hadn’t yet discovered how to make a chimney for their mud huts…

Indeed they were, though I’d argue that that was despite, rather than because of, their religion, whereas our descent into the European dark ages was, in large part, a direct result of ours.

It’s supremely ironic that it’s been the “western” rejection of religious mumbo jumbo that’s allowed us to progress, whereas it’s been Islam’s increasingly literal adherence to theirs has sent them in the opposite direction.

Precisely, and the people who still WoW! and goggle about the handful of cultural achievements they ascribe to Islamic culture seem to have missed what islamic culture did to the Buddhas of Bamiyan.

Are you personally responsible for the Fourth Crusade you blithering idiot?

If not then maybe accusing Canberra’s muslim community of complicity in the atrocities of the Taliban (not mainstream muslim teaching) is just the teensiest bit stupid?

Actually it’s extremely stupid.

HenryBG said :

Cantoangel said :

Wow I was going to lol at HenryBG’s initial comment as sarcasm but then I realized they were serious. What a shame that the most educated can be so buried in so much s*** that they lose rationality and choose to only see what they want to see.

Sounds like you’re identifying Appeasers, not Racists.

Basically, it’s the 1930s all over again – a small but extremely vocal minority is demanding we ignore the essential nature of a very nasty ideology, thus creating a worse problem.

Is this pseudo Godwin’s?

Or Foolsgodwin’s?

Name a single example of a successful islamic nation? Why do islamic societies fail to deliver prosperity and peace? Ask yourself questions instead of parroting politically-correct fantasies.

Deref said :

JimCharles said :

…[M]uslims were building exquisite palaces and writing classical literature when Anglo Saxons hadn’t yet discovered how to make a chimney for their mud huts…

Indeed they were, though I’d argue that that was despite, rather than because of, their religion, whereas our descent into the European dark ages was, in large part, a direct result of ours.

It’s supremely ironic that it’s been the “western” rejection of religious mumbo jumbo that’s allowed us to progress, whereas it’s been Islam’s increasingly literal adherence to theirs has sent them in the opposite direction.

Precisely, and the people who still WoW! and goggle about the handful of cultural achievements they ascribe to Islamic culture seem to have missed what islamic culture did to the Buddhas of Bamiyan.

HenryBG said :

Cantoangel said :

Wow I was going to lol at HenryBG’s initial comment as sarcasm but then I realized they were serious. What a shame that the most educated can be so buried in so much s*** that they lose rationality and choose to only see what they want to see.

Sounds like you’re identifying Appeasers, not Racists.

Basically, it’s the 1930s all over again – a small but extremely vocal minority is demanding we ignore the essential nature of a very nasty ideology, thus creating a worse problem.

Is this pseudo Godwin’s?

Or Foolsgodwin’s?

terk er godswins?

Cantoangel said :

Wow I was going to lol at HenryBG’s initial comment as sarcasm but then I realized they were serious. What a shame that the most educated can be so buried in so much s*** that they lose rationality and choose to only see what they want to see.

Sounds like you’re identifying Appeasers, not Racists.

Basically, it’s the 1930s all over again – a small but extremely vocal minority is demanding we ignore the essential nature of a very nasty ideology, thus creating a worse problem.

Postalgeek said :

Baldy said :

Holden Caulfield said :

Gungahlin Al said :

I see that the letter has been referred to Human Rights Commission. If they wish to get a taste of the kinds of spurious and unsubstantiated arguments likely to be put forward at this meeting, I suggest they look here (at 48:00 minutes): http://www.gcc.asn.au/Meetings-notices/Meeting-videos/dec-2011-meeting.html

Wow. That was really quite sad to watch.

1

I think we may have a lead to the author of the letter above.

I have to admit that I laughed when she compared the traffic in Gungahlin with the traffic in South Sydney.

OMG She really shows what she is about at 54:00 into the video. Incredible display of baseing your views on very little and narrow information.

She pretty much shows what she is about when she opens with an expression of concern about the effect of the mosque on the ‘Caucasian community’ at 48.36. From that point her issue with traffic lacked a certain sincerity.

I completely missed that the first time. She really showed her colours from the begining.

I don’t understand racists. From what I read of their comments on teh net and what I hear during discussions they seem to take very little information and focus on that and ignore the rest, then try and justify there xenophobia with silly and obvious reasons.

Case in point this woman on the video. She picked on one occasion that happens overseas in another culture with different laws and pastes them on anyone even remotely connected (i.e. they honor kill their daughters overseas so they must do it here as well). She then tried justifying her opposition against an Islamic Mosque by saying it will disrupt traffic. And she expected people to believe that was her real motivations.

Unbelievable ignorance that and definatly shows a lack of understanding about her fellow humans.

Gungahlin Al said :

I see that the letter has been referred to Human Rights Commission. If they wish to get a taste of the kinds of spurious and unsubstantiated arguments likely to be put forward at this meeting, I suggest they look here (at 48:00 minutes): http://www.gcc.asn.au/Meetings-notices/Meeting-videos/dec-2011-meeting.html

Hahaha she refers to “us Caucasian people”…lady I’ve been to Georgia and Azerbaijan and you look nothing like the people of the Caucasusesus (how do you spell the plural! :P)

But seriously, you feel for the GCC people and just want to reach in there and say “lady, stop being a bigot”

Wow I was going to lol at HenryBG’s initial comment as sarcasm but then I realized they were serious. What a shame that the most educated can be so buried in so much s*** that they lose rationality and choose to only see what they want to see.

Jono said :

Gungahlin Al said :

If they wish to get a taste of the kinds of spurious and unsubstantiated arguments likely to be put forward at this meeting, I suggest they look here (at 48:00 minutes): http://www.gcc.asn.au/Meetings-notices/Meeting-videos/dec-2011-meeting.html

Unbelievable. Ignorant bigotry at its very worst. Thank you for posting that, it’s not often you get to put a face to people like that.

I see stupid people. They’re everywhere and they don’t even know they’re stupid

Gungahlin Al said :

If they wish to get a taste of the kinds of spurious and unsubstantiated arguments likely to be put forward at this meeting, I suggest they look here (at 48:00 minutes): http://www.gcc.asn.au/Meetings-notices/Meeting-videos/dec-2011-meeting.html

Unbelievable. Ignorant bigotry at its very worst. Thank you for posting that, it’s not often you get to put a face to people like that.

Barron said :

CCC equivalent to KKK was also my first thought when a heard this story.
Muslims are being demonised by many in the wider world and this is just too similar to what happened about 80 years ago to the jewish people.
People have a right to believe what ever they like, at least in this country, as long as they don’t interfere with other to believe.
I don’t like organised religion of any sort but fanatics are really scary.

I have a shirt with the CCC brand but I don’t think it stands for Clu Clux Clan (that’s the way John Hargreaves spells it isn’t it?)

Baldy said :

Holden Caulfield said :

Gungahlin Al said :

I see that the letter has been referred to Human Rights Commission. If they wish to get a taste of the kinds of spurious and unsubstantiated arguments likely to be put forward at this meeting, I suggest they look here (at 48:00 minutes): http://www.gcc.asn.au/Meetings-notices/Meeting-videos/dec-2011-meeting.html

Wow. That was really quite sad to watch.

1

I think we may have a lead to the author of the letter above.

I have to admit that I laughed when she compared the traffic in Gungahlin with the traffic in South Sydney.

OMG She really shows what she is about at 54:00 into the video. Incredible display of baseing your views on very little and narrow information.

She pretty much shows what she is about when she opens with an expression of concern about the effect of the mosque on the ‘Caucasian community’ at 48.36. From that point her issue with traffic lacked a certain sincerity.

jasmine said :

Would we be having this conversation if it was a Catholic Church.

I should certainly hope so.

Holden Caulfield said :

Gungahlin Al said :

I see that the letter has been referred to Human Rights Commission. If they wish to get a taste of the kinds of spurious and unsubstantiated arguments likely to be put forward at this meeting, I suggest they look here (at 48:00 minutes): http://www.gcc.asn.au/Meetings-notices/Meeting-videos/dec-2011-meeting.html

Wow. That was really quite sad to watch.

+1

I think we may have a lead to the author of the letter above.

I have to admit that I laughed when she compared the traffic in Gungahlin with the traffic in South Sydney.

OMG She really shows what she is about at 54:00 into the video. Incredible display of baseing your views on very little and narrow information.

CCC equivalent to KKK was also my first thought when a heard this story.
Muslims are being demonised by many in the wider world and this is just too similar to what happened about 80 years ago to the jewish people.
People have a right to believe what ever they like, at least in this country, as long as they don’t interfere with other to believe.
I don’t like organised religion of any sort but fanatics are really scary.

Would we be having this conversation if it was a Catholic Church.

Gungahlin Al said :

I see that the letter has been referred to Human Rights Commission. If they wish to get a taste of the kinds of spurious and unsubstantiated arguments likely to be put forward at this meeting, I suggest they look here (at 48:00 minutes): http://www.gcc.asn.au/Meetings-notices/Meeting-videos/dec-2011-meeting.html

Wow. That was really quite sad to watch.

TheDancingDjinn said :

100% true – Personally when i hear “f*** off we’re full” i like to remind them if we gathered up all the racists and bigots and bogans and got them to “f*** off” then our country would have heaps of room spare.

Racism, bigotry and bogans are not inextricably linked. There are as many racists and bigots elsewhere in society. Leave bogans alone.

I’m kind of glad this thread hasn’t yet disappeared, because the people who put out these “dog whistle” letters and held this secret meeting need to be exposed for what they really are – bigots and hypocrites.

I think there’s more to come out of this story, and I’m sure a lot of people are keen to know who the key organisers were behind it. Media people have been asking me if I know who they are, but I don’t.

If they are anything like the woman who turned up at the GCC meeting accusing “these people” of “murdering their own daughters”, then they really are worrying, and Gungahlin (Canberra) would be better off without such woeful discrimination. (See the link I posted in comment #82.)

Personally, in almost 6 years of GCC meetings, that there was the worst moment I saw, and I was both disgusted and embarrassed for our community.

Aryan_Wolf said :

As a Mormon, I would love to hear about these so called bad things.

Are you talking LDS or FLDS?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_Meadows_massacre

Also read about the reason Joseph Smith was locked up when he was killed. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Smith#Death

And to get the idea of what the early LDS were like, it is always interesting to read the “lovely” speach by Brigham Young. It is unbelievable that the named a University after that creep. Here is the speech: http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/sermons_talks_interviews/brigham1852feb5_priesthoodandblacks.htm

johnboy said :

You can’t tell me they’d care if all muslims were blonde haired and blue eyed. I don’t see mormon temples being opposed and it wasn’t that long ago they were doing some awful things.

i am 100% for any religion practicing anything they want if they want to in a church of their choice. i just wanted to point out, that if by “awful things” you are going to refer to “Warren Jeffs” and his band of dirty old codgers then i should quickly say – the real Mormon church got rid of people who believed that way a long time ago. Yes some practice polygamy, but it is with women over the age of 21 and who know what life they are going into, which if the woman wants that then all good for her. The real Mormon church has no desire to be linked with those weirdos, they disagree as much as the rest of us do.

rosscoact said :

Surely we’re not debating the right of people to religious freedom? As it is guaranteed under s116 of the Constitution to say that people are not free to practice whatever religion they like is literally un-Australian.

One could even be forgiven for insisting as do certain media commentators and our own drunken bogans that if you don’t like it then bugger off to somewhere that is intolerant of other religions, such as Saudi Arabia.

100% true – Personally when i hear “f*** off we’re full” i like to remind them if we gathered up all the racists and bigots and bogans and got them to “f*** off” then our country would have heaps of room spare.

Thanks for that most informative post, JimCharles. Another case of RA at its best.

JimCharles said :

There’s nothing wrong or frightening about an Australian muslim population, as long as it is Australian, understood and controlled properly, and it isn’t allowed to isolate or radicalise.

And therein lies the lesson. We’ve been moderately successful at that so far, with some few notable failures. Let’s hope we continue to be successful.

The kind of knee-jerk prejudice evinced by these self-styled “Concerned Citizens” is a significant factor working against that success. There’s nothing like feeling under siege to push people together into cultural and religious enclaves; and there’s nothing like genuine acceptance and inclusion to help people integrate into the broader community.

JimCharles said :

The “stone age” religion argument can’t be sustained,

Of course it can. The “Abrahamic” (and most other) religions are firmly grounded in the stone, bronze and iron ages, with a patina of modernity laid on top when it suits them. All three have used, and continue to use, their ancient fairy tales as excuses for what is simply good, old-fashioned barbarity. By comparison, the latecomers like Scientology appear relatively benign. I emphasise “relatively”.

JimCharles said :

…[M]uslims were building exquisite palaces and writing classical literature when Anglo Saxons hadn’t yet discovered how to make a chimney for their mud huts…

Indeed they were, though I’d argue that that was despite, rather than because of, their religion, whereas our descent into the European dark ages was, in large part, a direct result of ours.

It’s supremely ironic that it’s been the “western” rejection of religious mumbo jumbo that’s allowed us to progress, whereas it’s been Islam’s increasingly literal adherence to theirs has sent them in the opposite direction.

I don’t see other religions other than Islam getting govt funded councils, either

http://www.dhcs.act.gov.au/multicultural/act_muslim_advisory_council

I don’t see mormons, anglicans, buddhists or any other religion getting such special treatment/lobbying opportunities funded by US. THIS kind of thing is what makes me angry,

Aryan_Wolf said :

johnboy said :

I don’t see mormon temples being opposed and it wasn’t that long ago they were doing some awful things.

As a Mormon, I would love to hear about these so called bad things.

Are you talking LDS or FLDS?

As a Mormon you would not know of anything bad Mormons have done due to the systematic brain washing that only Mormons can do only good.

Aryan_Wolf said :

johnboy said :

I don’t see mormon temples being opposed and it wasn’t that long ago they were doing some awful things.

As a Mormon, I would love to hear about these so called bad things.

I’d say it’s not so much doing bad things as believing silly things. I mean, the Christians and Muslims believe a lot of nonsense, no arguments there, but the Mormon belief system, as I understand it, involves some serious, really nonsensical nonsense. You know, the Angel Moroni, the Jewish tribes of America, Jesus visiting America etc etc.

johnboy said :

I don’t see mormon temples being opposed and it wasn’t that long ago they were doing some awful things.

As a Mormon, I would love to hear about these so called bad things.

Are you talking LDS or FLDS?

whitelaughter said :

“Gungahlin mosque stirs up the racist nuts”

uh-huh. What race, exactly, are Muslims?

The meaning of words is determined by how they are used. Casually throwing the term ‘racist’ at anyone you don’t like – changes the meaning of racist to ‘someone you don’t like’. Pauline Hanson was able to get so much traction because misuse of the word racist (esp against Geoffrey Blainey) had turned it into a compliment – the accusations of racism made her look good, and it wasn’t until people heard her talk that they realised that she was an idiot. If you keep misusing the word racist, it’ll blow up in your face *again*.

Fair, but a peripheral point is that I’m finding a lot of people who are racist are also Islamophobes.

rosscoact said :

Walker said :

On the face of it the letter seems ordinary enough. It’s the third paragraph that gives it away, as well as that patronising tone seeping through.

At any rate let them have their meeting fair enough, but I’m uncomfortable with a public issue being aired behind closed doors. I’m sure we’ll hear about it if it comes to anything much.

By the way how about putting it on the old Dickson observatory site? It’s perfect. And the area is chockas with churches. Try counting how many churches or almost-churches (a religious meeting place perhaps) there are in Dickson alone, then add the edges of the roundabout near Blackfriars.

How about putting it in the Gungahlin town centre, its perfect. Two churches in the same street, great access, no neighbours, entirely appropriate.

Sure why not, if it’s for the taking. If that’s what folks reckon of it. I guess my point was, here a church there a church everywhere a church church. Oh blast it I don’t even know anymore.

“Gungahlin mosque stirs up the racist nuts”

uh-huh. What race, exactly, are Muslims?

The meaning of words is determined by how they are used. Casually throwing the term ‘racist’ at anyone you don’t like – changes the meaning of racist to ‘someone you don’t like’. Pauline Hanson was able to get so much traction because misuse of the word racist (esp against Geoffrey Blainey) had turned it into a compliment – the accusations of racism made her look good, and it wasn’t until people heard her talk that they realised that she was an idiot. If you keep misusing the word racist, it’ll blow up in your face *again*.

@JimCharles #165
Thanks for that, really interesting reading.

I have family in Yorkshire and from what I understand the experience there has been slightly different to that in the midlands and south etc. While there has certainly been a fair amount of problems, from what I understand there has been less radicalisation up there, perhaps as a result of the fact that the asian population has been there for quite a long time now and become attached to that place and its people/culture?

Thinking about it again it seems worth noting that the behaviour of those who seek to reject and exclude ‘the other’, as appears to be the case re the mosque, are contributing to a climate where people may feel marginalised, creating the potential for radicalisation. horrible.

[insert Kamal quote]

C1

Disinformation said :

I used to think that HenryBG was rational until this topic came up.

You’re obviously new here.

I used to think that HenryBG was rational until this topic came up.
How did the meeting go on Sunday, Henry?
Hope the Napisan got those robes white and your pointy hat was all starched.

Maybe you can get the planning appoval to decree that a predefined hole be required out the front of the Mosque to adequately secure the crosses prior to them being lit.

dungfungus said :

Eyeball In A Quart Jar Of Snot said :

HenryBG said :

Eyeball In A Quart Jar Of Snot said :

“OK, so how do those swimming pools being built for people who are not you, in communities you don’t live in, equate to sharia law being imposed upon you?”
.

They start with swimming pools, next thing you know they’ll have morality police patrolling the streets and arresting women for not wearing the veil properly. As they most definitely do in countries where they have gained enough power to be able to impose this on their fellow-citizens.

I understand some people think it is appropriate to treat women as 2nd-class citizens.
I also understand other people are too cowardly to stand up for what is right.
As I am neither of the above, I am not ashamed to have a conversation about the negatives of allowing foreign people to bring a repulsive culture here with them.

Right.

And could you please inform me of which western countries with an extremely minority Muslim populations this has occurred in?

In some cities in Belgium and some councils in Great Britain for a start. Also, what do you call a “minority”?
.

That’s not true…no Council in the UK will ever replace English law with Sharia law, it’s simply impossible.
Sharia is used in some cases (where both sides agree) to solve domestic, financial and commercial disputes between Muslims. It’s actually a good idea…keeps matters away from the expensive legal system, but it’s not “legally” enforceable in the UK so both sides have to agree to accept the outcome, before the case is heard. It’s more like arbitration.
Some British legal firms are now employing Sharia lawyers to deal with muslim/muslim disputes and getting in on the act…..they still take their fee but the court costs are reduced to zero.

What you’re referring to are the more cultural aspects of a majority muslim suburb in the UK (of which there are quite a few), imposing Islamic custom on the way people live their lives and restricting people’s nationally accepted human rights by employing Islamic principles to override them. This is true, it does happen in isolated cases but is usually stamped on quickly.
It’s what’s under the surface that is more troubling, and you have a valid concern though perhaps not for Australia where you’re/we’re a lot more careful on immigration criteria than the UK has been for the last 20 years. They didn’t have a clue who was here, where they’d come from or what was happening at a local level in communities, though this has been quickly addressed by security services in the last few years and they’re now catching up with what they’re supposed to be governing.

Pakistani tribal politics is practiced in some UK majority Muslim suburbs where the elected member is then put under policy instruction from a tribal elder in Pakistan. The main purpose of this is to build closer links between the UK and Pakistan “villages” and all that entails, but the emphasis is on the wishes of the Pakistan village and what they would like to impose on the UK through local authority representation and subsequently, parliamentary politics.
I think this is what worries people, moreso than just “Islam”
There is a dual system in place, which I’ve witnessed frequently through my profession.
This is normally to do with immigration issues, education, business, wealth sharing, influencing planning policy suited to providing larger housing for extended Pakistani families, as opposed to the standard 2/3 bedroom property more normally planned.
There’s absolutely nothing wrong with this principle…..ex-pat communities have been influencing politics in the USA and Australia since the birth of the nations.
The difference here is that there is a current and direct link to groups in one country that is trying to influence another. That isn’t democratic, and that isn’t allowing immigrants into a country and expecting them to follow your rules, when a lot are pressured and can’t, and some have no intention of doing so in the first place..
What you end up with is a sub-country within another country, running under a different cultural understanding but notionally following the laws of the habitant country.
Rather than living your life respecting those laws, it’s sort of like a guideline which you must keep within to avoid drawing attention. They’re not the police, they can’t revolt or rule, they can’t openly patrol the streets waving a stick ….but they can highly influence and bend rules as much as possible….and when it gets big enough it branches out into crime and large scale lawbreaking.
We’ve had meetings where females are not allowed to be present, educated UK-born females being allowed into public meetings to only as interpreter for a non-English speaking, non-educated Pakistani husband who is denying his wife her own opinion, but instructing her verbatim to communicate opinions directly received from Pakistan.
Vote rigging scandals, postal vote fraud where votes are forcibly collected from householders and then completed on their behalf to elect the preferred candidate, who’s the voice for the Pakistan village elder.
Election candidates stopping cars and hijacking ballot boxes on their way to the count.
Post Office franchises deliberately being purchased and used to perpetuate large scale fraud of insurance, tax, rego, passport validations, identity verifications.
Large underground community businesses being created which will provide people to pass driving tests, or even worse, medical profession examinations in the names of other people who then become “Doctors” or “Dentists”.
Madrassah schools to teach cultural values to boys which have been used as a front for recruitment centres for the Mujahideen to go to Afghanistan and try and kill UK soldiers they may have been to school with. You may have seen the USA intercepts of Birmingham UK accents being picked up on Taliban radio, or the Jihadi warrior who was shot dead and found covered in Aston Villa football tattoos….it was an eye-opener.
However shocking, I don’t think you can argue against Muslims on these principles because they have a very good reason behind them….the communities were uncontrolled, infiltrated and ruled by radicals who never thought of themselves as British, never wanted to be British except for a badge of convenience and a passport, never had to swear allegiance, and were allowed to get away with everything due to naive government and poor political and security intelligence.
There is a difference between practicing “tolerance” and just being bloody unrealistic….the world is sometimes not a nice place and some people within it need to be watched all the time.

There’s nothing wrong or frightening about an Australian muslim population, as long as it is Australian, understood and controlled properly, and it isn’t allowed to isolate or radicalise.
The “stone age” religion argument can’t be sustained, muslims were building exquisite palaces and writing classical literature when Anglo Saxons hadn’t yet discovered how to make a chimney for their mud huts….they have a lot to offer.
.

HenryBG said :

poetix said :

Anyone who does object to the mosque who identifies as Christian has a rather distorted view of Christianity that should have been left behind a few centuries ago. I can’t imagine Jesus at secret meetings to plot against the mosque.

Considering the cult of Mohammed (Islam) had not yet been invented in Jesus’ time, you’d have to do some study to really answer your question.

Broadly, Jesus was quite clearly a socialist, a communalist even. This means anybody who votes Republican in the USA is very unlikely to be a Christian: what these “christians” in the USA really are are a kind of neo-Judaic cult that ignores the Christian message in favour of reversion to the backward nonsense in the Old Testament.

This highlights the fact that “christianity” is something that has evolved over the last 1600 years in tandem with our culture, and doesn’t necessarily reflect the teachings of Jesus anyway. Western civilisation is only loosely captive to the christian religion, thanks to the religious wars of the 16th/17th Centuries and the scientific revolution that followed it. Despite the revival of nutty fundamentalism, christianity was largely tamed by our secular democratic society long before our time. In some places better than others. Australia’s roughly even division along sectarian lines has actually given us quite a good result compared with some other places.

I’m not a religious scholar, but I’d say Jesus would have a thing or two to say about Islam.
For example:
And when you make your prayers, be not like the false-hearted men, who take pleasure in getting up and saying their prayers in the Synagogues and at the street turnings so that they may be seen by men. Truly I say to you, They have their reward.
But when you make your prayer, go into your private room, and, shutting the door, say a prayer to your Father in secret, and your Father, who sees in secret, will give you your reward.
Matthew 6:5-6

IOW, it’s *what* you do that counts. Jesus clearly advocated egalitarianism, charity, and freedom for women. He preached a break from religious fundamentalism (I think he directly challenged literalism, although he had to be careful. Not careful enough to avoid execution though). He was basically a progressive. This would have put him in direct conflict with any group that advocated the contrary, and Islam is one such group.

In the famous parable of the good Samaritan (Luke 10) Jesus makes clear that there are good people of all nationalities and religions; that they can be your neighbour too. Which seems apposite.

Also, Christianity has been around for about 2000 years, not 1600. Hence our dates. 1400 years is about right for Islam.

Jesus, called Isa or Issa, is a revered figure in Islam (though not seen as the son of God). Islamic women’s status varies greatly from country to country, and it is unfair to write off all Muslims as unprogressive. Calling Islam a cult is needlessly offensive.

HenryBG said :

Eyeball In A Quart Jar Of Snot said :

HenryBG said :

Eyeball In A Quart Jar Of Snot said :

“OK, so how do those swimming pools being built for people who are not you, in communities you don’t live in, equate to sharia law being imposed upon you?”
.

They start with swimming pools, next thing you know they’ll have morality police patrolling the streets and arresting women for not wearing the veil properly. As they most definitely do in countries where they have gained enough power to be able to impose this on their fellow-citizens.

I understand some people think it is appropriate to treat women as 2nd-class citizens.
I also understand other people are too cowardly to stand up for what is right.
As I am neither of the above, I am not ashamed to have a conversation about the negatives of allowing foreign people to bring a repulsive culture here with them.

Right.

And could you please inform me of which western countries with an extremely minority Muslim populations this has occurred in?

Get a map of the world and draw a circuit around Arabia. That’s where Islam started. Now identify each country abutting Arabia and then each country abutting that country, in turn, and tell me what has happened to the civil rights and the human rights of non-muslims in each of these countries as they were colonised by Islam since the 8th Century. Check out Nigeria and Kenya to see colonisation in action.

Since you avoided answering the question, and instead posted another crazy xenophobic rambling, I’ll assume you know that the answer is zero and therefore your paranoia is unfounded.

poetix said :

Anyone who does object to the mosque who identifies as Christian has a rather distorted view of Christianity that should have been left behind a few centuries ago. I can’t imagine Jesus at secret meetings to plot against the mosque.

Considering the cult of Mohammed (Islam) had not yet been invented in Jesus’ time, you’d have to do some study to really answer your question.

Broadly, Jesus was quite clearly a socialist, a communalist even. This means anybody who votes Republican in the USA is very unlikely to be a Christian: what these “christians” in the USA really are are a kind of neo-Judaic cult that ignores the Christian message in favour of reversion to the backward nonsense in the Old Testament.

This highlights the fact that “christianity” is something that has evolved over the last 1600 years in tandem with our culture, and doesn’t necessarily reflect the teachings of Jesus anyway. Western civilisation is only loosely captive to the christian religion, thanks to the religious wars of the 16th/17th Centuries and the scientific revolution that followed it. Despite the revival of nutty fundamentalism, christianity was largely tamed by our secular democratic society long before our time. In some places better than others. Australia’s roughly even division along sectarian lines has actually given us quite a good result compared with some other places.

I’m not a religious scholar, but I’d say Jesus would have a thing or two to say about Islam.
For example:
And when you make your prayers, be not like the false-hearted men, who take pleasure in getting up and saying their prayers in the Synagogues and at the street turnings so that they may be seen by men. Truly I say to you, They have their reward.
But when you make your prayer, go into your private room, and, shutting the door, say a prayer to your Father in secret, and your Father, who sees in secret, will give you your reward.
Matthew 6:5-6

IOW, it’s *what* you do that counts. Jesus clearly advocated egalitarianism, charity, and freedom for women. He preached a break from religious fundamentalism (I think he directly challenged literalism, although he had to be careful. Not careful enough to avoid execution though). He was basically a progressive. This would have put him in direct conflict with any group that advocated the contrary, and Islam is one such group.

Eyeball In A Quart Jar Of Snot said :

HenryBG said :

Eyeball In A Quart Jar Of Snot said :

“OK, so how do those swimming pools being built for people who are not you, in communities you don’t live in, equate to sharia law being imposed upon you?”
.

They start with swimming pools, next thing you know they’ll have morality police patrolling the streets and arresting women for not wearing the veil properly. As they most definitely do in countries where they have gained enough power to be able to impose this on their fellow-citizens.

I understand some people think it is appropriate to treat women as 2nd-class citizens.
I also understand other people are too cowardly to stand up for what is right.
As I am neither of the above, I am not ashamed to have a conversation about the negatives of allowing foreign people to bring a repulsive culture here with them.

Right.

And could you please inform me of which western countries with an extremely minority Muslim populations this has occurred in?

Get a map of the world and draw a circuit around Arabia. That’s where Islam started. Now identify each country abutting Arabia and then each country abutting that country, in turn, and tell me what has happened to the civil rights and the human rights of non-muslims in each of these countries as they were colonised by Islam since the 8th Century. Check out Nigeria and Kenya to see colonisation in action.

rosscoact said :

Surely we’re not debating the right of people to religious freedom? As it is guaranteed under s116 of the Constitution to say that people are not free to practice whatever religion they like is literally un-Australian.

One could even be forgiven for insisting as do certain media commentators and our own drunken bogans that if you don’t like it then bugger off to somewhere that is intolerant of other religions, such as Saudi Arabia.

The funny thing is, some people live in a country that’s full of mosques and they don’t feel safe, so they flee. They arrive in Malaysia, a country full of mosques, but they aren’t safe, so they flee. They arrive in Indonesia, a country full of mosques, but they don’t feel safe so they flee.
They arrive in Australia, a country with no mosques, and they feel safe.
So they decide to build mosques.

You’d think people would be able to add 2 + 2 …

So-called “religious freedom” shouldn’t mean “anything goes”. If the concept allows the Scientologists to operate, then the concept is clearly flawed.

dungfungus said :

Remember, we live in a country where a couple of Green extremists are running the country and the Greens as a party only received about 12% of the national vote.

Oh, but you know it’s the freemasons that are really in control of everything, right?

Surely we’re not debating the right of people to religious freedom? As it is guaranteed under s116 of the Constitution to say that people are not free to practice whatever religion they like is literally un-Australian.

One could even be forgiven for insisting as do certain media commentators and our own drunken bogans that if you don’t like it then bugger off to somewhere that is intolerant of other religions, such as Saudi Arabia.

poetix said :

I have to say that there is no evidence whatsoever that Catholics or Anglicans (or the other Christian denominations mentioned) are behind the anti-mosque push, if that is what you are suggesting. The idea of an Anglican fundamentalist, for example, strikes me as both strange and funny.

Anyone who does object to the mosque who identifies as Christian has a rather distorted view of Christianity that should have been left behind a few centuries ago. I can’t imagine Jesus at secret meetings to plot against the mosque. Mind you, he wasn’t a selfish, intolerant bogan.

Apologies, it’s not what I was suggesting, but my typing got away from me and re-reading I do note I said that!

What I was objecting to was some on this forum claiming that it’s a short step from a Gungahlin mosque to the imposition of sharia law. I wanted to show that nationwide the Muslim population is around 2% and that even if they all voted together to bring in ‘islamist’ changes with a mighty Australian Islamist Party or whatever, they wouldn’t get very far. I couldn’t see 100% of the muslim voting population supporting such a thing as I can’t see 100% of the bogan population supporting any particular view point of a right-wing party.

IrishPete said :

dungfungus said :

Remember, we live in a country where a couple of Green extremists are running the country and the Greens as a party only received about 12% of the national vote.

Excuse my poor arithmetic but, last time I checked, 12% of the Australia voting population calculates to a little more than “a couple”. It’s easy but inaccurate to blame The Greens because the Liberals, Nationals and Labor won’t cooperate to make us (The Greens) powerless. After all, the difference between Labor and Coalition refugee policies is miniscule, compared to the difference between either of them and The Greens.

Back to the issue at hand – I don’t want any religious buildings near me, but if this Mosque is next to a Church I call that BALANCE. Those of you complaining about immigrants imposing their views on the natives have clearly forgotten 1788.

IP

+12%

dungfungus said :

In some cities in Belgium and some councils in Great Britain for a start

Where’d you get this info? Your neo-nazi propaganda?

Give us the names of these councils where sharia law is becoming actual law?

gazket said :

Why do you come to a Christian country and then wish to keep your prehistoric beliefs and degradation of your failed countries beliefs. All I hear from Muslims is we want, we want, we want. How about going back to your own countries and push your own leaders for reform and bring you into the 21st century instead of sponging of us in Australia . Maybe in 200 years if you work hard you to can have a country like Australia.

Prehistoric beliefs?? Haha. Get over yourself. WTF is Christianity? If you want to get into the 21st century atheism and reality is where it’s at…

The Traineediplomat said :

As per the 2011 Census Results for the ACT

Total Christians – 197,020 or 55.2% of the ACT Respondents.
Total Muslims – 7,432 or 2.1% of the ACT Respondents

Arrrrgh head for the hills…

If I were the Catholics (93,302 or 26.1% of all respondents) I would be more alarmed at the biggest single group – No religion at 103,250 (28.9%)… that’s 103,000 people who wrote NO RELIGION …not leaving it blank (7.6% with 27,027)….

And if we remove those respondents at 14 or less, to leave “adult/own decision” style of answers then

No Religion 28.4%
Catholics 25.5%
Anglicans 15.3%
Blank answers 7.6%
Uniting 3.5%
Buddhism 2.8%
Presbyterian/Reformed 2.6%
Christian (no further definition) 2.0%
Islam 1.9%
Hinduism 1.
(rest under 1.5% each)

So those Catholic (or even Anglican) fundies should be more upset with the non-secular buildings going up…you know, shops, movie theatres, etc

I have to say that there is no evidence whatsoever that Catholics or Anglicans (or the other Christian denominations mentioned) are behind the anti-mosque push, if that is what you are suggesting. The idea of an Anglican fundamentalist, for example, strikes me as both strange and funny.

Anyone who does object to the mosque who identifies as Christian has a rather distorted view of Christianity that should have been left behind a few centuries ago. I can’t imagine Jesus at secret meetings to plot against the mosque. Mind you, he wasn’t a selfish, intolerant bogan.

dungfungus said :

Remember, we live in a country where a couple of Green extremists are running the country and the Greens as a party only received about 12% of the national vote.

Excuse my poor arithmetic but, last time I checked, 12% of the Australia voting population calculates to a little more than “a couple”. It’s easy but inaccurate to blame The Greens because the Liberals, Nationals and Labor won’t cooperate to make us (The Greens) powerless. After all, the difference between Labor and Coalition refugee policies is miniscule, compared to the difference between either of them and The Greens.

Back to the issue at hand – I don’t want any religious buildings near me, but if this Mosque is next to a Church I call that BALANCE. Those of you complaining about immigrants imposing their views on the natives have clearly forgotten 1788.

IP

CrocodileGandhi said :

Hello concerned people,

I am writing to say that I am also terribly concerned. I am concerned about the proposed John Paul College, to be built in Nicholls. The community has not been adequately consulted and our concerns have not been answered, regardless of the number of times that I approach relevant MLA’s with my concerned face prominently displayed.

If this school is to go ahead, I am concerned about the following:

1) Social impact
2) Traffic and Noise
3) Bulk scale and height

I shall now elaborate on these concerns.

The social impacts of this school could be wide ranging and irreversibly damaging to the Gungahlin community. Catholic schools all over the world are currently under investigation for numerous accusations of heinous abuse of children. With the school to be named after Pope John Paul II – soon to be beatified as the Patron Saint of Ignoring a Problem Unitl You Die – I fear that these problems will persist.

The traffic and noise that this school will create could also be extremely hazardous. Unlike other institutions that are only visited on certain specific days (like, for example, a mosque), schools are bombarded by hundreds of cars and buses, twice a day, five times a week. This 420 student capacity school will see a vast increase to the traffic of the surrounding area. And this is before mentioning the incessant ringing of the school bell which will have to be suffered by the local residents, even though they are adults and are allowed to have as long a recess as they please.

The bulk scale and height of the facility is also of concern to us very concerned citizens. Schools are large buildings. As evidence for this, I would ask you to look at any other school and then compare it to the size of any other prominent public building (like, for example, a mosque). I believe that you will find that the size of the school you are looking at is significantly larger than the size of the other building you have chosen, which for argument’s sake we will assume is a mosque.

It is our very concerned wish that the ACT Government act in a manner that is at least as transparent as your true motives.

There will be a closed-door meeting this Sunday to discuss the travesty that is the John Paul School. Once you have responded to this email, I will place a clue to the whereabouts of the meeting at a pre-determined drop-off point.

Regards,

Concerny McConcern

Why do you come to a Christian country and then wish to keep your prehistoric beliefs and degradation of your failed countries beliefs. All I hear from Muslims is we want, we want, we want. How about going back to your own countries and push your own leaders for reform and bring you into the 21st century instead of sponging of us in Australia . Maybe in 200 years if you work hard you to can have a country like Australia.

Deckard said :

HenryBG said :

They start with swimming pools, next thing you know they’ll have morality police patrolling the streets and arresting women for not wearing the veil properly. As they most definitely do in countries where they have gained enough power to be able to impose this on their fellow-citizens.

How can someone with such rational views on something like climate change have such a crackpot view like this?

That’s just what I’ve come to regard as The Joy Of Henry. He’s an enigma wrapped in a contradiction.

Eyeball In A Quart Jar Of Snot said :

HenryBG said :

Eyeball In A Quart Jar Of Snot said :

“OK, so how do those swimming pools being built for people who are not you, in communities you don’t live in, equate to sharia law being imposed upon you?”
.

They start with swimming pools, next thing you know they’ll have morality police patrolling the streets and arresting women for not wearing the veil properly. As they most definitely do in countries where they have gained enough power to be able to impose this on their fellow-citizens.

I understand some people think it is appropriate to treat women as 2nd-class citizens.
I also understand other people are too cowardly to stand up for what is right.
As I am neither of the above, I am not ashamed to have a conversation about the negatives of allowing foreign people to bring a repulsive culture here with them.

Right.

And could you please inform me of which western countries with an extremely minority Muslim populations this has occurred in?

In some cities in Belgium and some councils in Great Britain for a start. Also, what do you call a “minority”?
Remember, we live in a country where a couple of Green extremists are running the country and the Greens as a party only received about 12% of the national vote.

As per the 2011 Census Results for the ACT

Total Christians – 197,020 or 55.2% of the ACT Respondents.
Total Muslims – 7,432 or 2.1% of the ACT Respondents

Arrrrgh head for the hills…

If I were the Catholics (93,302 or 26.1% of all respondents) I would be more alarmed at the biggest single group – No religion at 103,250 (28.9%)… that’s 103,000 people who wrote NO RELIGION …not leaving it blank (7.6% with 27,027)….

And if we remove those respondents at 14 or less, to leave “adult/own decision” style of answers then

No Religion 28.4%
Catholics 25.5%
Anglicans 15.3%
Blank answers 7.6%
Uniting 3.5%
Buddhism 2.8%
Presbyterian/Reformed 2.6%
Christian (no further definition) 2.0%
Islam 1.9%
Hinduism 1.7%

(rest under 1.5% each)

So those Catholic (or even Anglican) fundies should be more upset with the non-secular buildings going up…you know, shops, movie theatres, etc

HenryBG said :

They start with swimming pools, next thing you know they’ll have morality police patrolling the streets and arresting women for not wearing the veil properly. As they most definitely do in countries where they have gained enough power to be able to impose this on their fellow-citizens.

How can someone with such rational views on something like climate change have such a crackpot view like this?

HenryBG said :

Eyeball In A Quart Jar Of Snot said :

“OK, so how do those swimming pools being built for people who are not you, in communities you don’t live in, equate to sharia law being imposed upon you?”
.

They start with swimming pools, next thing you know they’ll have morality police patrolling the streets and arresting women for not wearing the veil properly. As they most definitely do in countries where they have gained enough power to be able to impose this on their fellow-citizens.

I understand some people think it is appropriate to treat women as 2nd-class citizens.
I also understand other people are too cowardly to stand up for what is right.
As I am neither of the above, I am not ashamed to have a conversation about the negatives of allowing foreign people to bring a repulsive culture here with them.

Right.

And could you please inform me of which western countries with an extremely minority Muslim populations this has occurred in?

HenryBG said :

I also understand other people are too cowardly to stand up for what is right.
As I am neither of the above, I am not ashamed to have a conversation about the negatives of allowing foreign people to bring a repulsive culture here with them.

And THAT’S why I won’t do jury duty!

HenryBG said :

They start with swimming pools, next thing you know they’ll have morality police patrolling the streets and arresting women for not wearing the veil properly.

BWAAA AHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHA

FioBla said :

Because meanwhile, *colonisation* continues apace: in the news last month, muslims from Bangladesh razed 4000 homes in Burma. In news today, muslims in Kenya lobbed grenades into several churches during Sunday mass and tried to machine-gun the survivors. Not in the news is the continued genocide being implemented in West Papua, with no complaint from the lefties. Violence in the Philippines, Nigeria, and every country in-between. Australian graves in Libya are defaced every other day. Syria is being destroyed by people who intend it be cleansed of Kurds, Christians and all other non-Sunni minorities. All over the world, *colonisation* is continuing, while the lefties turn a blind eye, which is curious because it’s the lefties that complain the loudest about it normally.

And then there was that time when Iraq invaded America.

…I’m sorry, are the American end-of-times friends-of-Israel looney-tunes who started that war trying to build something in Gungahlin?
I must have missed that one and am therefore completely missing your point. You *do* have a point?

Eyeball In A Quart Jar Of Snot said :

“OK, so how do those swimming pools being built for people who are not you, in communities you don’t live in, equate to sharia law being imposed upon you?”
.

They start with swimming pools, next thing you know they’ll have morality police patrolling the streets and arresting women for not wearing the veil properly. As they most definitely do in countries where they have gained enough power to be able to impose this on their fellow-citizens.

I understand some people think it is appropriate to treat women as 2nd-class citizens.
I also understand other people are too cowardly to stand up for what is right.
As I am neither of the above, I am not ashamed to have a conversation about the negatives of allowing foreign people to bring a repulsive culture here with them.

Eyeball In A Quart Jar Of Snot said :

HenryBG said :

Eyeball In A Quart Jar Of Snot said :

Henry, please explain how sharia law is slowly being imposed upon you in Australia 2012?

You’re right. Completely stupid idea. Just imagine if they tried to introduce – say – segregated swimming pools. We wouldn’t even consider allowing it ould we.

OK, so how do those swimming pools being built for people who are not you, in communities you don’t live in, equate to you being imposed upon you?

Whoops, that should have read:

“OK, so how do those swimming pools being built for people who are not you, in communities you don’t live in, equate to sharia law being imposed upon you?”

But I certainly wouldn’t want you imposed upon me.

HenryBG said :

Eyeball In A Quart Jar Of Snot said :

Henry, please explain how sharia law is slowly being imposed upon you in Australia 2012?

You’re right. Completely stupid idea. Just imagine if they tried to introduce – say – segregated swimming pools. We wouldn’t even consider allowing it ould we.

OK, so how do those swimming pools being built for people who are not you, in communities you don’t live in, equate to you being imposed upon you?

dungfungus said :

HenryBG said :

bundah said :

Firstly i will say that as an agnostic atheist i have little time for religion nor their places of worship but having said that i don’t believe i have the right to tell others who they can and can’t worship and stop them from building their churches or mosques.Could you imagine the ramifications if we said you are welcome to live in Australia and call it home but no mosques especially given there are almost half a million muslims here? Tolerance is what sets us apart from the animals!

Every time I walk past that scientology place in Civic I wonder WTF our government is doing letting these people operate openly like that. Scientology has no part in our culture and no redeeming features. They prey on people suffering mental issues, steal their money, and pay no tax.

And in Egypt, Nigeria and Indonesia muslims are regularly burning down churches while the police look on. Very tolerant police in those countries eh?

Regularly?

Really?

But we’ll show those minorities by not letting “their” churches in “our” country.

Because we’re better than that.

HenryBG said :

Eyeball In A Quart Jar Of Snot said :

Henry, please explain how sharia law is slowly being imposed upon you in Australia 2012?

You’re right. Completely stupid idea. Just imagine if they tried to introduce – say – segregated swimming pools. We wouldn’t even consider allowing it ould we.

Segregated swimming pools do not equal sharia law. They might be kinda stupid, they might be a symptom of political correctness gone wrong, or some citizens fear of others, but it is not sharia law.

Eyeball In A Quart Jar Of Snot said :

Henry, please explain how sharia law is slowly being imposed upon you in Australia 2012?

You’re right. Completely stupid idea. Just imagine if they tried to introduce – say – segregated swimming pools. We wouldn’t even consider allowing it ould we.

HenryBG said :

Not sure what relevance your 30-year-old history is, however the answer is, False. Fewer protestants were killed by catholics than catholics were killed by protestant terrorists. You may have heard of the UVF? Far more vicious than the IRA.

Source please. My memory is clearly different to that, but I’m willing to be corrected. I can find plenty of numbers on the net, but none of them even come close to agreeing.

Malcolm Sutton’s book on the conflict gives the following numbers for the period 1969 – 2001:

IRA – Killed 1826 out of a total of 2060 killed by the republican side.
UVF – Killed 481 out of a total of 1016 killed by the loyalist side.

I note that you still avoid answering my question, but I’ll rephrase it to give you fewer reasons to avoid it. During the 1970s and 1980s when the two most vicious terrorist organisations in the world were Christian, would you have objected to a Christian church being built in your neighbourhood? Both were quite happy to kill civilians and their view of their faith was that that was acceptable.

So there were a whole 30 people went to this protest/meeting…out of how many people that live in Gungahlin? Sounds like a storm in a teacup to me.

mareva said :

Residents of Gungahlin, have you heard? There are a bunch of dumb asses living amongst you……….

Sort your s*** out Gungahlin you’re making us all look bad.

😀

HenryBG said :

The irony is that as Sharia law is gradually imposed on us,

No jury duty in Sharia law.

Because meanwhile, *colonisation* continues apace: in the news last month, muslims from Bangladesh razed 4000 homes in Burma. In news today, muslims in Kenya lobbed grenades into several churches during Sunday mass and tried to machine-gun the survivors. Not in the news is the continued genocide being implemented in West Papua, with no complaint from the lefties. Violence in the Philippines, Nigeria, and every country in-between. Australian graves in Libya are defaced every other day. Syria is being destroyed by people who intend it be cleansed of Kurds, Christians and all other non-Sunni minorities. All over the world, *colonisation* is continuing, while the lefties turn a blind eye, which is curious because it’s the lefties that complain the loudest about it normally.

And then there was that time when Iraq invaded America.

Henry, please explain how sharia law is slowly being imposed upon you in Australia 2012?

HenryBG said :

Every time I walk past that scientology place in Civic I wonder WTF our government is doing letting these people operate openly like that. Scientology has no part in our culture and no redeeming features. They prey on people suffering mental issues, steal their money, and pay no tax.

Thoroughly agree, though I’d replace “that scientology place in Civic” with “a religious edifice”. I worked with a woman whose daughter was sucked in by the Scientologists, and it was a terrible thing. We had long discussions about it and, no matter how hard we tried, the only difference we could find between Scientology and any other religion was that the others had been at it longer.

p1 said :

dungfungus said :

All three actually and Julia Gillard who is an aethist actually sent Christmas cards to her friends.
Can’t wait for your analysis on that one.

I still don’t get it. Are you offended that JG sent out a greeting specific to a religion she proports not to subscribe to? Or happy that she didn’t cave to pressure to not potentially offend someone?

For the record, I agree that the idea of someone being offended by being wish healh and happyness is extremely retarded, but then some people *are* extremely retarded. And I mean that literally – some part of their brain is limited in the way it can function – I do not mean to offend people with non-religious disabilities.

I want to apologise to all Rioters for foolishly challenging p1 to analyse why an aethist sends out Christmas cards. Clearly, I am extremely retarded.

Residents of Gungahlin, have you heard? There are a bunch of dumb asses living amongst you……….

Sort your s*** out Gungahlin you’re making us all look bad.

HenryBG said :

bundah said :

Firstly i will say that as an agnostic atheist i have little time for religion nor their places of worship but having said that i don’t believe i have the right to tell others who they can and can’t worship and stop them from building their churches or mosques.Could you imagine the ramifications if we said you are welcome to live in Australia and call it home but no mosques especially given there are almost half a million muslims here? Tolerance is what sets us apart from the animals!

Every time I walk past that scientology place in Civic I wonder WTF our government is doing letting these people operate openly like that. Scientology has no part in our culture and no redeeming features. They prey on people suffering mental issues, steal their money, and pay no tax.

And in Egypt, Nigeria and Indonesia muslims are regularly burning down churches while the police look on. Very tolerant police in those countries eh?

I hope Keysar Trad speaks on behalf of the Muslim community in Canberra to put the protestors minds at ease.

bundah said :

Firstly i will say that as an agnostic atheist i have little time for religion nor their places of worship but having said that i don’t believe i have the right to tell others who they can and can’t worship and stop them from building their churches or mosques.Could you imagine the ramifications if we said you are welcome to live in Australia and call it home but no mosques especially given there are almost half a million muslims here? Tolerance is what sets us apart from the animals!

Every time I walk past that scientology place in Civic I wonder WTF our government is doing letting these people operate openly like that. Scientology has no part in our culture and no redeeming features. They prey on people suffering mental issues, steal their money, and pay no tax.

Jono said :

In the 1970s and 1980s by far the most vicious terrorist organisation in the world was made up of Catholics.

Not sure what relevance your 30-year-old history is, however the answer is, False. Fewer protestants were killed by catholics than catholics were killed by protestant terrorists. You may have heard of the UVF? Far more vicious than the IRA.

In any case, the troubles in NI were an outcome of decolonisation (poorly implemented). It had nothing to do with a bunch of people trying to impose an alien ideology on their neighbours.

Because meanwhile, *colonisation* continues apace: in the news last month, muslims from Bangladesh razed 4000 homes in Burma. In news today, muslims in Kenya lobbed grenades into several churches during Sunday mass and tried to machine-gun the survivors. Not in the news is the continued genocide being implemented in West Papua, with no complaint from the lefties. Violence in the Philippines, Nigeria, and every country in-between. Australian graves in Libya are defaced every other day. Syria is being destroyed by people who intend it be cleansed of Kurds, Christians and all other non-Sunni minorities. All over the world, *colonisation* is continuing, while the lefties turn a blind eye, which is curious because it’s the lefties that complain the loudest about it normally.

You can deal with the criticisms that islam attracts, or you can admit you have no argument and try to shut it down by playing the “racism” card.

The irony is that as Sharia law is gradually imposed on us, it’s the lefties who’ll hate it the most: chopping the hands off thieves, executing prostitutes and homosexuals, discounting women’s entitlements in succession law, won’t upset everybody equally now, will it?

dungfungus said :

All three actually and Julia Gillard who is an aethist actually sent Christmas cards to her friends.
Can’t wait for your analysis on that one.

I still don’t get it. Are you offended that JG sent out a greeting specific to a religion she proports not to subscribe to? Or happy that she didn’t cave to pressure to not potentially offend someone?

For the record, I agree that the idea of someone being offended by being wish healh and happyness is extremely retarded, but then some people *are* extremely retarded. And I mean that literally – some part of their brain is limited in the way it can function – I do not mean to offend people with non-religious disabilities.

Eyeball In A Quart Jar Of Snot said :

It’s incredible that 20% of the world’s population, some 1.5 billion people of multiple races with differing religious interpretations/politics/morals/socio-economic background in both sexes and all age groups, can somehow come under the same umbrella as those rare extremist news headlines that occur in the rural areas of Pakistan, Saudi Arabia etc

HenryBG said :

I love it how those who freely denigrate catholics and deride their priests as paedophiles can be so shocked and oppositional to similar criticism being aimed at a different religion, which has a vastly worse record in that, as well as many other areas.

Why the hypocrisy, I wonder? Does political correctness immunise you against self-awareness and hypocrisy?

So much this.

It seems clear that “political correctness” (for lack of a less nauseating term) also immunises one against common sense and reason.

Walker said :

On the face of it the letter seems ordinary enough. It’s the third paragraph that gives it away, as well as that patronising tone seeping through.

At any rate let them have their meeting fair enough, but I’m uncomfortable with a public issue being aired behind closed doors. I’m sure we’ll hear about it if it comes to anything much.

By the way how about putting it on the old Dickson observatory site? It’s perfect. And the area is chockas with churches. Try counting how many churches or almost-churches (a religious meeting place perhaps) there are in Dickson alone, then add the edges of the roundabout near Blackfriars.

How about putting it in the Gungahlin town centre, its perfect. Two churches in the same street, great access, no neighbours, entirely appropriate.

On the face of it the letter seems ordinary enough. It’s the third paragraph that gives it away, as well as that patronising tone seeping through.

At any rate let them have their meeting fair enough, but I’m uncomfortable with a public issue being aired behind closed doors. I’m sure we’ll hear about it if it comes to anything much.

By the way how about putting it on the old Dickson observatory site? It’s perfect. And the area is chockas with churches. Try counting how many churches or almost-churches (a religious meeting place perhaps) there are in Dickson alone, then add the edges of the roundabout near Blackfriars.

p1 said :

dungfungus said :

At the other end of Canberra we have Gai Brodtmann MP sending out the end of year greeting cards/calendars with the statement “Wishing you and your family a safe and happy festive season”
It is noted that Brodtmann’s predecessor Annette Ellis used to send out a similar end of year thing but hers reflected “A Merry Christmas”
When Brodtmann’s electoral office was asked why there had been a change the answer was “we didn’t want to offend non-Christian people”
As someone with Christian values Ithis is offensive to me but I am not going to run crying to some nanny agency to complain.
Brodtmann will reap her harvest at the next election.

You were offended that a person you don’t know didn’t wish you a good season with greetings specific to your religion? Or were you offended that someone else might be offended to receive greetings specifically not from their religion (from someone they don’t know)? Or we’re you offended that an elected person cared enough about hypothetical people who might possibly be offended, that she didn’t send you a chrissy card?

All three actually and Julia Gillard who is an aethist actually sent Christmas cards to her friends.
Can’t wait for your analysis on that one.

Dear Concerned Citizen of Canberra,

It has come to our attention that there have been a number of issues raised in regards to the prospect of a Mosque being built in Gunghalin. Please allow me to allay some of your fears by addressing some of these concerns:

1- Social impact.
The Muslim community is intent on integrating itself seamlessly into the community, for theocratic dictatorships are the will of God and must arise from the heart of the community. So please understand it is not in our interests to draw attention to ourselves as we seek to overthrow the infidel Legislative Assembly and establish a caliphate within the borders of the ACT (incorporating Jervis Bay). In order to promote a harmonious facade the Muslim community wishes to reach out and share cultural experiences. For example, we hope to have small Muslim community groups demonstrating the stoning of adulterers and homosexuals at Hall markets on the weekends, and conduct burkha fashion parades accompanied by ululation at local shopping mall food courts during workday lunch hours. This will also allow our womenfolk to get the grocery shopping done during the hour we allow them to have outside.

2-Traffic and noise.
The Muslim community is well aware of this problem, and we would like to reassure local residents that it is common practice in the Muslim world to carpool Technical Vehicles (TV). Generally speaking we encourage no less than 3 fighters to each TV, not including driver and gunner. This also allows us to travel in T2 lanes. And be aware that all Muslim children are taught from the age of five that AK-47s are not to be fired into the air between the hours of 7 PM and 8 AM. I would also like to reassure you that Muslims are well-versed with the modern western devilry you call information technology, and in order to ensure minimum disruption to the local community our call to prayers will only be broadcast on 2CC.

3- Public interest.
Please be assured that our terrorist activities are sensitive to the needs and expectations of the local community. For example, our car of choice for VBIEDs will be white commodores, as local residents are already familiar with their destructive nature and tend to give them a wide berth. We will always try to source our materials such as ammonium nitrate locally in order to support local business, as well as reducing the carbon miles required to produce an IED. We are happy to offer our TVs with their mounted PK machineguns as a supplement to P2P cameras and we can confidently say Canberran drivers will see a marked reduction in anti-social behaviour such as tail-gating and lane blocking. And we will always be happy to participate in local Neighbourhood Watch patrols, blockades, and checkpoints. As we say, Be Aware of God, Not Alarmed.

4- Bulk Scale and Height.
While it is true that any mosque with a capacity for less than 100000 worshippers is considered modest in the Muslim world, understand that it is our desire to blend with the local architecture. To this end we will endeavour to devise a bland building with no architectural distinction whatsoever that will completely occupy the entire block to the exclusion of any and all greenery, with vast expanses of single glazing to minimize energy effeciency where practical (our faith in God keeps us warm).

Faithfully yours,

Your local Imam 🙂

It’s incredible that 20% of the world’s population, some 1.5 billion people of multiple races with differing religious interpretations/politics/morals/socio-economic background in both sexes and all age groups, can somehow come under the same umbrella as those rare extremist news headlines that occur in the rural areas of Pakistan, Saudi Arabia etc

But if I grew up in other parts of the world I might believe that all white Australians are dumb, drunk and racist. And some folks in this thread are trying real hard to prove that misconception right.

nazasaurus said :

People who purport to be a ‘moderate’ anything, christian jew muslim etc, are the cherry pickers who all seem to have a special understanding with god and their own unique interpretation of what their their religion is about.

Really? Or is it possible that the mainstream followers who want peace and goodwill are the normal ones, and the few nutballs who seem to think that they should kill others are the outliers?

HenryBG said :

Jono said :

HenryBG said :

Not many Australians killed by Catholic suicide bombers lately…

Two Australians were shot in cold blood by the IRA (a terrorist organisation made up entirely of Catholics) in Roermond in 1990,

22 years ago? Is that the best you can do? And do Catholic priests foam at the mouth at weekly prayers as they demand violence by meted out to infidels, as is the case in thousand upon thousands of mosques around the world each week?

I love it how those who freely denigrate catholics and deride their priests as paedophiles can be so shocked and oppositional to similar criticism being aimed at a different religion, which has a vastly worse record in that, as well as many other areas.

Why the hypocrisy, I wonder? Does political correctness immunise you against self-awareness and hypocrisy?

bundah said :

So much ugliness and intolerance in our society. One could understand peoples opposition to a mosque if it was being used by islamic extremists to preach hate and death to all infidels which is extremely unlikely to be the case here.

The violence at the Yarralumla mosque shows you are wrong.

The Grand Mufti of Australia’s sermon at Lakemba mosque wherein he compared Australian women to “cat meat” also proves you wrong.

The whole purpose of this mosque will be to provide a platform for some men who are living in the dark ages (and funded by Wahhabists in Saudi Arabia) to indoctrinate some of the less intelligent amongst us into espousing their uncivilised nonsense.

I don’t have to tolerate the intolerable and crying “racist” at people who tell a few home truths about Islam just shows how little rational argument you have in favour of Islam.

Firstly i will say that as an agnostic atheist i have little time for religion nor their places of worship but having said that i don’t believe i have the right to tell others who they can and can’t worship and stop them from building their churches or mosques.Could you imagine the ramifications if we said you are welcome to live in Australia and call it home but no mosques especially given there are almost half a million muslims here? Tolerance is what sets us apart from the animals!

johnboy said :

Great to see the bigots got their talking points together at their secret meeting

They picked an odd location for it though.

johnboy said :

Great to see the bigots got their talking points together at their secret meeting

That picked an odd location for it though.

HenryBG said :

22 years ago? Is that the best you can do?

Yep it is – the Catholic terrorists have been fairly quiet in recent years, not to say that they won’t ever be at it again however. I repeat my question. In the 1970s and 1980s by far the most vicious terrorist organisation in the world was made up of Catholics. At that time would you have opposed the building of a Catholic church in your area?

MartianMick said :

Idiots. Stupid, stupid idiots. It is not about race or religion, it is about fear of violence.

Are you really a Martian? Seems like you are living on another planet with a comment like that.

Islam and democracy are incompatible. Simple as that. It is particularly stupid and barbaric in the spectrum of all religions and frankly while I couldnt care less that the Canberra islamic community gets a mosque in my suburb, I have a real problem with apologists for islam that spring up in forums like this. You also CANNOT compare the abuse by catholic priests and the IRA bombings etc to the widespread wrong doings of Islam. People who purport to be a ‘moderate’ anything, christian jew muslim etc, are the cherry pickers who all seem to have a special understanding with god and their own unique interpretation of what their their religion is about. Oh, my my grandparents are muslim and I was born in a muslim country so have a pretty practical sense of how particulary backward and destructive islam can be.

Jono said :

HenryBG said :

Not many Australians killed by Catholic suicide bombers lately…

Two Australians were shot in cold blood by the IRA (a terrorist organisation made up entirely of Catholics) in Roermond in 1990,

22 years ago? Is that the best you can do? And do Catholic priests foam at the mouth at weekly prayers as they demand violence by meted out to infidels, as is the case in thousand upon thousands of mosques around the world each week?

I love it how those who freely denigrate catholics and deride their priests as paedophiles can be so shocked and oppositional to similar criticism being aimed at a different religion, which has a vastly worse record in that, as well as many other areas.

Why the hypocrisy, I wonder? Does political correctness immunise you against self-awareness and hypocrisy?

bundah said :

So much ugliness and intolerance in our society. One could understand peoples opposition to a mosque if it was being used by islamic extremists to preach hate and death to all infidels which is extremely unlikely to be the case here.

The violence at the Yarralumla mosque shows you are wrong.

The Grand Mufti of Australia’s sermon at Lakemba mosque wherein he compared Australian women to “cat meat” also proves you wrong.

The whole purpose of this mosque will be to provide a platform for some men who are living in the dark ages (and funded by Wahhabists in Saudi Arabia) to indoctrinate some of the less intelligent amongst us into espousing their uncivilised nonsense.

I don’t have to tolerate the intolerable and crying “racist” at people who tell a few home truths about Islam just shows how little rational argument you have in favour of Islam.

MartianMick said :

Idiots. Stupid, stupid idiots. It is not about race or religion, it is about fear of violence.

Ha. So where’s the Concerned Citizens of Canberra’s flyer calling for action against the denizens of Mooseheads?

Sigh. I was brought up in a Muslim household, mum was treated well by dad, women in the muslim community that were friends of the family and relatives all treated equally. Of course, there where stories of some spousal abuse, but not much different from what I hear from any other communities or in the news. Sick of these comments were people like to magnify mistreatment of Islam women and think that it applies to everyone practising the religion. It’s like saying that ALL men are horrible because a small number of them are offenders of rape. Ok, maybe an over simplistic view, but you get my drift.

MartianMick said :

Idiots. Stupid, stupid idiots. It is not about race or religion, it is about fear of violence.

Please explain?

dungfungus said :

At the other end of Canberra we have Gai Brodtmann MP sending out the end of year greeting cards/calendars with the statement “Wishing you and your family a safe and happy festive season”
It is noted that Brodtmann’s predecessor Annette Ellis used to send out a similar end of year thing but hers reflected “A Merry Christmas”
When Brodtmann’s electoral office was asked why there had been a change the answer was “we didn’t want to offend non-Christian people”
As someone with Christian values Ithis is offensive to me but I am not going to run crying to some nanny agency to complain.
Brodtmann will reap her harvest at the next election.

You were offended that a person you don’t know didn’t wish you a good season with greetings specific to your religion? Or were you offended that someone else might be offended to receive greetings specifically not from their religion (from someone they don’t know)? Or we’re you offended that an elected person cared enough about hypothetical people who might possibly be offended, that she didn’t send you a chrissy card?

bundah said :

MartianMick said :

Idiots. Stupid, stupid idiots. It is not about race or religion, it is about fear of violence.

johnboy said :

Violence? Like what goes on outside half the bars in town every single saturday night?

So much ugliness and intolerance in our society. One could understand peoples opposition to a mosque if it was being used by islamic extremists to preach hate and death to all infidels which is extremely unlikely to be the case here.

Why is it extremely (good pun) likely in Australia than say, England where it is rife?

MartianMick said :

Idiots. Stupid, stupid idiots. It is not about race or religion, it is about fear of violence.

johnboy said :

Violence? Like what goes on outside half the bars in town every single saturday night?

So much ugliness and intolerance in our society. One could understand peoples opposition to a mosque if it was being used by islamic extremists to preach hate and death to all infidels which is extremely unlikely to be the case here.

Jim Jones said :

miz said :

Johnboy said: “It’s a religion full of kind, generous and hard working people.”
So long as you are a man.
Women are basically men’s property under Islam. There was a doco on the ABC the other day about how women could not even divorce a man unless the man agrees. http://www.abc.net.au/tv/guide/abc1/201206/programs/DO0967H001D2012-06-21T213357.htm

Yeah, and Christians are well known for burning witches – I saw a documentary on it.

Which was over 400 years ago.

Idiots. Stupid, stupid idiots. It is not about race or religion, it is about fear of violence.

poetix said :

Elizabethany said :

TheDancingDjinn said :

Elizabethany said :

What I think about any particular religion should have no say on whether they should have access to a place of worship in the same area as they live. I don’t agree with the Scientologists (or the Catholics for that matter), but I am not going to stop them building a church.

Every religion has something that the general population dislikes, Catholics ban divorce, birth control and thinking for yourself, Jews, Hindus and Muslims ban eating pork, Scientology bans mental health care and Anglicans ban gay relationships and promote missionaries to convert the uneducated. This is also not a reason to prevent them building a church.

Maybe we need to work on “love thy neighbor” a bit better.

im of no particular religion and i agree somewhat but – the Anglicans are one of the only religious outfits that do support homosexuality – they have a gay bishop, and in the united states the first gay female reverend/priest or whatever they are called was ordained in 1977. They have openly gay priest/reverends with parishes across the country.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/political-news/churches-lay-down-law-on-gay-marriage-as-vote-nears-20120617-20iby.html

“Church heavyweights have been spurred into action by the bills, with the heads of the Catholic, Anglican and Greek Orthodox churches issuing strong statements to their congregations yesterday urging them to oppose any move towards same-sex marriage.

The Anglican Archbishop of Sydney, Peter Jensen, wrote a letter to parishioners that was then distributed to the rectors of every Anglican church within the diocese.

Dr Jensen said legislation for gay marriage was not inevitable but, if it happened, would have flow-on ill-effects for religious freedom, public speech and education in schools.

”My main job is to communicate the truth as I understand it for the wellbeing of the community in which we live,” he told the Herald. ”The Christian teaching is that sex only takes place within marriage.””

So you can only be an acceptable gay if you never act on it. And yes, I am a practising Anglican, I just don’t always agree with their discrimination.

This is still not a reason to prevent Muslims having a mosque.

I wasn’t going to comment as I don’t want Anglicans muscling in on a Muslim thread, but Jensen’s views on masses of things are so different from most Anglicans in Canberra. They don’t even have women clergy in Sydney. Peter Jensen absented himself from the consecration of the first woman bishop for Canberra and Goulburn, as well. But it still happened.

I think we’ll see gay marriage in the Anglican Church, here, eventually. Which will presumably then mean we can have gay and lesbian married clergy. But I don’t know when!

We have a way to go to catch up with the Americans (called the Episcopalians) it seems. They’re very much a minority church, due to a little thing called the Revolutionary War.

As you say, though, none of this relates to the need for a new mosque. Or the intolerance of those opposing it.

You won’t find a same sex “marriage” ceromony ever taking place in a Muslim Mosque either but you will find lots of intolerance about the concept.

Elizabethany said :

TheDancingDjinn said :

Elizabethany said :

What I think about any particular religion should have no say on whether they should have access to a place of worship in the same area as they live. I don’t agree with the Scientologists (or the Catholics for that matter), but I am not going to stop them building a church.

Every religion has something that the general population dislikes, Catholics ban divorce, birth control and thinking for yourself, Jews, Hindus and Muslims ban eating pork, Scientology bans mental health care and Anglicans ban gay relationships and promote missionaries to convert the uneducated. This is also not a reason to prevent them building a church.

Maybe we need to work on “love thy neighbor” a bit better.

im of no particular religion and i agree somewhat but – the Anglicans are one of the only religious outfits that do support homosexuality – they have a gay bishop, and in the united states the first gay female reverend/priest or whatever they are called was ordained in 1977. They have openly gay priest/reverends with parishes across the country.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/political-news/churches-lay-down-law-on-gay-marriage-as-vote-nears-20120617-20iby.html

“Church heavyweights have been spurred into action by the bills, with the heads of the Catholic, Anglican and Greek Orthodox churches issuing strong statements to their congregations yesterday urging them to oppose any move towards same-sex marriage.

The Anglican Archbishop of Sydney, Peter Jensen, wrote a letter to parishioners that was then distributed to the rectors of every Anglican church within the diocese.

Dr Jensen said legislation for gay marriage was not inevitable but, if it happened, would have flow-on ill-effects for religious freedom, public speech and education in schools.

”My main job is to communicate the truth as I understand it for the wellbeing of the community in which we live,” he told the Herald. ”The Christian teaching is that sex only takes place within marriage.””

So you can only be an acceptable gay if you never act on it. And yes, I am a practising Anglican, I just don’t always agree with their discrimination.

This is still not a reason to prevent Muslims having a mosque.

I wasn’t going to comment as I don’t want Anglicans muscling in on a Muslim thread, but Jensen’s views on masses of things are so different from most Anglicans in Canberra. They don’t even have women clergy in Sydney. Peter Jensen absented himself from the consecration of the first woman bishop for Canberra and Goulburn, as well. But it still happened.

I think we’ll see gay marriage in the Anglican Church, here, eventually. Which will presumably then mean we can have gay and lesbian married clergy. But I don’t know when! We have a way to go to catch up with the Americans (called the Episcopalians) it seems. They’re very much a minority church, due to a little thing called the Revolutionary War.

As you say, though, none of this relates to the need for a new mosque. Or the intolerance of those opposing it.

HenryBG said :

Not many Australians killed by Catholic suicide bombers lately…

Yep, not many killed by Catholic “suicide bombers” – however Catholic terrorists are another story. Two Australians were shot in cold blood by the IRA (a terrorist organisation made up entirely of Catholics) in Roermond in 1990, not that long ago. When the Catholic IRA were doing their worst in the 1970s and 1980s I don’t recall such opposition to Catholic churches being built.

TheDancingDjinn said :

Elizabethany said :

What I think about any particular religion should have no say on whether they should have access to a place of worship in the same area as they live. I don’t agree with the Scientologists (or the Catholics for that matter), but I am not going to stop them building a church.

Every religion has something that the general population dislikes, Catholics ban divorce, birth control and thinking for yourself, Jews, Hindus and Muslims ban eating pork, Scientology bans mental health care and Anglicans ban gay relationships and promote missionaries to convert the uneducated. This is also not a reason to prevent them building a church.

Maybe we need to work on “love thy neighbor” a bit better.

im of no particular religion and i agree somewhat but – the Anglicans are one of the only religious outfits that do support homosexuality – they have a gay bishop, and in the united states the first gay female reverend/priest or whatever they are called was ordained in 1977. They have openly gay priest/reverends with parishes across the country.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/political-news/churches-lay-down-law-on-gay-marriage-as-vote-nears-20120617-20iby.html

“Church heavyweights have been spurred into action by the bills, with the heads of the Catholic, Anglican and Greek Orthodox churches issuing strong statements to their congregations yesterday urging them to oppose any move towards same-sex marriage.

The Anglican Archbishop of Sydney, Peter Jensen, wrote a letter to parishioners that was then distributed to the rectors of every Anglican church within the diocese.

Dr Jensen said legislation for gay marriage was not inevitable but, if it happened, would have flow-on ill-effects for religious freedom, public speech and education in schools.

”My main job is to communicate the truth as I understand it for the wellbeing of the community in which we live,” he told the Herald. ”The Christian teaching is that sex only takes place within marriage.””

So you can only be an acceptable gay if you never act on it. And yes, I am a practising Anglican, I just don’t always agree with their discrimination.

This is still not a reason to prevent Muslims having a mosque.

Elizabethany said :

What I think about any particular religion should have no say on whether they should have access to a place of worship in the same area as they live. I don’t agree with the Scientologists (or the Catholics for that matter), but I am not going to stop them building a church.

Every religion has something that the general population dislikes, Catholics ban divorce, birth control and thinking for yourself, Jews, Hindus and Muslims ban eating pork, Scientology bans mental health care and Anglicans ban gay relationships and promote missionaries to convert the uneducated. This is also not a reason to prevent them building a church.

Maybe we need to work on “love thy neighbor” a bit better.

im of no particular religion and i agree somewhat but – the Anglicans are one of the only religious outfits that do support homosexuality – they have a gay bishop, and in the united states the first gay female reverend/priest or whatever they are called was ordained in 1977. They have openly gay priest/reverends with parishes across the country.

Gungahlin Al said :

I can’t believe we are here again. Except of course I can believe it. Nay I fully expected it once the DA went in. But that doesn’t make it any less disappointing.

Pseudo planning complaints put forward as a thin disguise for bigoted fear-mongering – if not to hide it from the reader then from the writer themselves. As borne out by the total absence of comment about the two other churches approved for the same street.

“Dominate the viewscape” “Bulk scale and height” – the site is in the town core, where the heights of surrounding buildings will be up to 8 storeys. The DA is for 2 storeys. If anything it’s an underutilisation of the site, as will be the pokies club the government wants to put next door.

“No social impact assessment” – it’s in the town core and under the zone regulations a church is merit assessable. A social impact assessment would only be required under an Impact Assessable use.

“Capacity for 500” – the Statement Against Criteria states 427 seats. Some rounding happening there then! But at least it’s down a bit on the 1000 seats some opponents were claiming a few months back.

“Social impact” – the peak use will occur at lunch times Fridays. Most Gungahlin people will not ever see this happen. One impact that will be noticed is the injection of people into the town centre at a traditionally quiet time, helping struggling businesses.

“Traffic and noise” – the site faces part of what will be the major ring road system around the town centre. There are 40+ car spaces on site and the ability to use several other car parks around the area that will be underutilised during their peaks. The town centre is at a major public transport node, thereby reducing traffic and demand for parking. No external public address system is proposed so noise will be negligible and thoroughly in keeping with a town core location.

“Public interest” – just what does this mean? Code for “do you want *those* people here?”

“Honesty and transparency” – the proponent has attended numerous public meetings and copped embarrassing bigotry. They hosted a well-publicised barby on the site on a busy Saturday morning a few months back. The issue has been discussed in articles in several issues of the GCC newsletter Australia Post delivered to every home and business in Gungahlin and has been discussed at several GCC meetings. It has been covered numerous times in every single news outlet in Canberra both electronic and print. I have had at last 20 interviews on the topic with various media over the last 4 years. I leave the irony of the transparency bleat to the rest or RA to shred.

“Doubtful they will be a good neighbour” – *they* being the Canberra Muslim Community have been clear that they wish their facilities to be used by the wider community irrespective of faith. Certainly a 400-seat hall will be very popular with many organisations.

I see that the letter has been referred to Human Rights Commission. If they wish to get a taste of the kinds of spurious and unsubstantiated arguments likely to be put forward at this meeting, I suggest they look here (at 48:00 minutes): http://www.gcc.asn.au/Meetings-notices/Meeting-videos/dec-2011-meeting.html

I cannot understand why anyone would be offended by that letter.
At the other end of Canberra we have Gai Brodtmann MP sending out the end of year greeting cards/calendars with the statement “Wishing you and your family a safe and happy festive season”
It is noted that Brodtmann’s predecessor Annette Ellis used to send out a similar end of year thing but hers reflected “A Merry Christmas”
When Brodtmann’s electoral office was asked why there had been a change the answer was “we didn’t want to offend non-Christian people”
As someone with Christian values Ithis is offensive to me but I am not going to run crying to some nanny agency to complain.
Brodtmann will reap her harvest at the next election.

jayskette said :

Gungalin is a desert waste of row upon row of 300m2 blocks of houses that don’t even look like proper houses. This area needs a magnificent structure such as a mosque/church/statue – preferably built like the Taj Mahal. Beauty with a purpose. (Nobody consulted us when the government erected a monster dedicated to Finding Nemo on Drakeford Drive either)

Get real. The Taj Mahal took years to build and slave labour was used. Do you think the CFMEU would allow that? While the CFMEU has given the Chinese fortress development in Yarralumla the Nelson’s Eye, I doubt that they would allow indentured slaves from the middle east to particpate in contsructing a mosque in Canberra.
BTW, it is easy to see why China is dominating the world economy at present; all you have to do is drive past the building site in Yarralumla and see them working 7 days a week around the clock. That’s productivity in action.

Mr Waffle said :

Is it coincidental timing that I got a little comic book in my letterbox (belco area) the other day which was essentially “Muslims are the tool of the devil, follow the bible OR ELSE” fearmongering propaganda? It was as offensive as anything I’ve ever seen come out of the American fundamentalists…

Aren’t those Chick tracts a hoot

Mr Waffle said :

Is it coincidental timing that I got a little comic book in my letterbox (belco area) the other day which was essentially “Muslims are the tool of the devil, follow the bible OR ELSE” fearmongering propaganda? It was as offensive as anything I’ve ever seen come out of the American fundamentalists…

Offensive, sure, but there’s still a considerable gap between vile propaganda delivered through letterboxes, and lynchings.

Is it coincidental timing that I got a little comic book in my letterbox (belco area) the other day which was essentially “Muslims are the tool of the devil, follow the bible OR ELSE” fearmongering propaganda? It was as offensive as anything I’ve ever seen come out of the American fundamentalists…

poetix said :

If any woman of whatever religion Is treated illegally, she (and the police) can, and should, take action. Denying women the right to follow the religion of their choice in adequate facilities is hardly empowering them. If all the Anglican churches in Canberra were suddenly closed (except for one overcrowded one, say, St John’s) I’d be mightily pissed off and feel under attack from outside. All the Islamic community wants is another place of worship, which is long overdue.

Well said Poetix.

Gungalin is a desert waste of row upon row of 300m2 blocks of houses that don’t even look like proper houses. This area needs a magnificent structure such as a mosque/church/statue – preferably built like the Taj Mahal. Beauty with a purpose. (Nobody consulted us when the government erected a monster dedicated to Finding Nemo on Drakeford Drive either)

I can’t believe we are here again. Except of course I can believe it. Nay I fully expected it once the DA went in. But that doesn’t make it any less disappointing.

Pseudo planning complaints put forward as a thin disguise for bigoted fear-mongering – if not to hide it from the reader then from the writer themselves. As borne out by the total absence of comment about the two other churches approved for the same street.

“Dominate the viewscape” “Bulk scale and height” – the site is in the town core, where the heights of surrounding buildings will be up to 8 storeys. The DA is for 2 storeys. If anything it’s an underutilisation of the site, as will be the pokies club the government wants to put next door.

“No social impact assessment” – it’s in the town core and under the zone regulations a church is merit assessable. A social impact assessment would only be required under an Impact Assessable use.

“Capacity for 500” – the Statement Against Criteria states 427 seats. Some rounding happening there then! But at least it’s down a bit on the 1000 seats some opponents were claiming a few months back.

“Social impact” – the peak use will occur at lunch times Fridays. Most Gungahlin people will not ever see this happen. One impact that will be noticed is the injection of people into the town centre at a traditionally quiet time, helping struggling businesses.

“Traffic and noise” – the site faces part of what will be the major ring road system around the town centre. There are 40+ car spaces on site and the ability to use several other car parks around the area that will be underutilised during their peaks. The town centre is at a major public transport node, thereby reducing traffic and demand for parking. No external public address system is proposed so noise will be negligible and thoroughly in keeping with a town core location.

“Public interest” – just what does this mean? Code for “do you want *those* people here?”

“Honesty and transparency” – the proponent has attended numerous public meetings and copped embarrassing bigotry. They hosted a well-publicised barby on the site on a busy Saturday morning a few months back. The issue has been discussed in articles in several issues of the GCC newsletter Australia Post delivered to every home and business in Gungahlin and has been discussed at several GCC meetings. It has been covered numerous times in every single news outlet in Canberra both electronic and print. I have had at last 20 interviews on the topic with various media over the last 4 years. I leave the irony of the transparency bleat to the rest or RA to shred.

“Doubtful they will be a good neighbour” – *they* being the Canberra Muslim Community have been clear that they wish their facilities to be used by the wider community irrespective of faith. Certainly a 400-seat hall will be very popular with many organisations.

I see that the letter has been referred to Human Rights Commission. If they wish to get a taste of the kinds of spurious and unsubstantiated arguments likely to be put forward at this meeting, I suggest they look here (at 48:00 minutes): http://www.gcc.asn.au/Meetings-notices/Meeting-videos/dec-2011-meeting.html

What I think about any particular religion should have no say on whether they should have access to a place of worship in the same area as they live. I don’t agree with the Scientologists (or the Catholics for that matter), but I am not going to stop them building a church.

Every religion has something that the general population dislikes, Catholics ban divorce, birth control and thinking for yourself, Jews, Hindus and Muslims ban eating pork, Scientology bans mental health care and Anglicans ban gay relationships and promote missionaries to convert the uneducated. This is also not a reason to prevent them building a church.

Maybe we need to work on “love thy neighbor” a bit better.

I’m not against the building of a mosque, indeed, it would be awesome with huge minarets, none of this new fangled modern stuff.

(So should churches be, that is, big, classical and made of stone with steeples, but that’s another story.)

However, having a Moroccan brother in law and having lived in Marrakesh with said Morrocan family I can say without doubt that women are most definitely treated as second class citizens.

If this is the case here, I am unsure.

I certainly hope not.

But by all means build the mosque, with awesome minarets, and classical Islamic arches, etc. The architecture is simply fantastic.

And one should really read the works of Kahlil Gibran. Quite wonderful literature.

I know eastern European people(won’t say more than there a lot of them in Canberra) who are incredibly strict Catholics, but treat their women like second class citizens. Also related to Greeks by marriage that do the same.

miz said :

Johnboy said: “It’s a religion full of kind, generous and hard working people.”
So long as you are a man.
Women are basically men’s property under Islam. There was a doco on the ABC the other day about how women could not even divorce a man unless the man agrees. http://www.abc.net.au/tv/guide/abc1/201206/programs/DO0967H001D2012-06-21T213357.htm

Islamic women are the ones who will ensure that their rights are respected. Their belief is as real as that of men, and they need a place to worship. There are some hideous regimes/movements that claim to be Islamic, but this is quite different from moderate Islam. I have met Islamic families that, if anything, push their girls a bit hard in terms of education.

If any woman of whatever religion Is treated illegally, she (and the police) can, and should, take action. Denying women the right to follow the religion of their choice in adequate facilities is hardly empowering them. If all the Anglican churches in Canberra were suddenly closed (except for one overcrowded one, say, St John’s) I’d be mightily pissed off and feel under attack from outside. All the Islamic community wants is another place of worship, which is long overdue.

rosscoact said :

I have Greek friends who treat their women as second class citizens but they are greek orthodox

I would say that treating Greek women as second class citizens in Australia is totally unorthodox.

rosscoact said :

I have Greek friends who treat their women as second class citizens but they are greek orthodox

And given so many describe AFL as a religion, footy players.

Oh and Summernats, place is just like down town Cairo.

The first link happened in Canada

A western democracy and a member of the Commonwealth, not under Sharia law, and with laws against killing people. You know, like Australia. Where apparently women have a choice about how they live, even if they are under the murderous rule of their religious fanatic parents. You just make laws, see, and it all goes away.

and is an incredibly extreme example

Fair point. They usually only do one daughter at a time.

The second was a husband killing his wife’s lover, which I’m pretty sure you’ll find is a common occurrence across all cultures.

Yeah, honour killings are just as frequent in secular Western democracies as they are in eastern religious societies. Why do you suppose they’re just as common here as, say, in Saudi Arabia? Do you think it’s because we have such similar cultural positions about women’s rights, patriarchal duty, the separation of church and state, and using deadly violence to resolve civil disputes? Do you think it’s because both sets of societies give extreme sentences for honour killings rather than token wrist-slaps, assuming the perpetrators are prosecuted at all? Do you suppose it’s because we both value women as people, not property or cattle?

I have Greek friends who treat their women as second class citizens but they are greek orthodox

DrKoresh said :

Woody Mann-Caruso said :

Given that we do not have islamic law in Australia muslim women are still making their own choices about how they live their lives.

Yeah, like these women made a choice, and this guy’s lover made a choice. Those religious misogynists totally trembled before our secular ‘laws’.

The first link happened in Canada and is an incredibly extreme example. The second was a husband killing his wife’s lover, which I’m pretty sure you’ll find is a common occurrence across all cultures.

Yep, it happens everywhere. There was a trial in Sydney just this week regarding the “husband killing his wife’s lover” This was a Malaysian man and he was found guilty of an “honour killing” (even though no such offence exists in Australia,yet). Seems his wife was having an affair with another Malaysian man at the workplace and his religious advisers said an “honour killing” was the only way to solve the problem. I am not sure what the religion involved was; I guess it is the one most people subscribe to in Malaysia. Definitely “honour killings” are a common occurence across all cultures but more prevalent in some.

Woody Mann-Caruso said :

Given that we do not have islamic law in Australia muslim women are still making their own choices about how they live their lives.

Yeah, like these women made a choice, and this guy’s lover made a choice. Those religious misogynists totally trembled before our secular ‘laws’.

The first link happened in Canada and is an incredibly extreme example. The second was a husband killing his wife’s lover, which I’m pretty sure you’ll find is a common occurrence across all cultures.

Jim Jones said :

miz said :

Johnboy said: “It’s a religion full of kind, generous and hard working people.”
So long as you are a man.
Women are basically men’s property under Islam. There was a doco on the ABC the other day about how women could not even divorce a man unless the man agrees. http://www.abc.net.au/tv/guide/abc1/201206/programs/DO0967H001D2012-06-21T213357.htm

Yeah, and Christians are well known for burning witches – I saw a documentary on it.

Hahaha, BAM!! JB I keep trying to make sure you come across discerning and with better quality sources!! I have to share in this funny call!!

MERC600 said :

To be officially opened by MLA Mr Barr by chance ..

He would be about as welcome at a mosque about as much as a pork chop would be in a synagogue.

johnboy said :

*Sigh*

Can the mouth breathers please get some perspective about islam?

This is the religion that gave the world Omar Khayyam:

And, as the Cock crew, those who stood before
The Tavern shouted – “Open then the Door!
You know how little time we have to stay,
And once departed, may return no more.”

Or

If chance supplied a loaf of white bread,
Two casks of wine and a leg of mutton,
In the corner of a garden with a tulip-cheeked girl,
There’d be enjoyment no Sultan could outdo.

It’s the religion which holds Alp Arslan as one of its great heroes:

Emperor Romanos IV was himself taken prisoner and conducted into the presence of Alp Arslan, who treated him with generosity, and, terms of peace having been agreed to, dismissed him, loaded with presents and respectfully attended by a military guard. The following conversation is said to have taken place after Romanos was brought as a prisoner before the Sultan:

Alp Arslan: “What would you do if I was brought before you as a prisoner?”
Romanos: “Perhaps I’d kill you, or exhibit you in the streets of Constantinople.”
Alp Arslan: “My punishment is far heavier. I forgive you, and set you free.”

[So basically he’s a role model for Doctor Who (Around 5:30)]

It gave the world the Alhambra and the Taj Mahal.

It’s a religion full of kind, generous and hard working people.

Yes there are some bad people who hold the faith. There are bad people holding all faiths, and bad people who hold no faith.

You didn’t mention the Mesquita at Cordoba johnboy but the Alhambra and the Taj Mahal are excellent examples of Islam abilities albeit a long time ago. Things seem to have stagnated since then. I agree that there are some bad people among all faiths and it could be argued that Australia’s first Muslim terrorists were the two Pakistanis at Broken Hill who murdered innocent people in the name of their faith. The event is known as The Battle of Broken Hill http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Broken_Hill

Given that we do not have islamic law in Australia muslim women are still making their own choices about how they live their lives.

Yeah, like these women made a choice, and this guy’s lover made a choice. Those religious misogynists totally trembled before our secular ‘laws’.

Johnboy, just watch the doco and you will understand. Muslim women, even in Australia, have little control over their own lives.

miz said :

Women are basically men’s property under Islam. There was a doco on the ABC the other day about how women could not even divorce a man unless the man agrees. http://www.abc.net.au/tv/guide/abc1/201206/programs/DO0967H001D2012-06-21T213357.htm

It was the same in Australia well into the 60s.

miz said :

Women are basically men’s property under Islam. There was a doco on the ABC the other day about how women could not even divorce a man unless the man agrees. http://www.abc.net.au/tv/guide/abc1/201206/programs/DO0967H001D2012-06-21T213357.htm

Some Islamic countries had female leaders before Australia did. Pakistan and Indonesia (Megawati) come to mind. Still waiting for the female POTUS.

On the other hand, in the West a meme exists that men are sooo oppressed. Damn feminazis.

miz said :

Johnboy said: “It’s a religion full of kind, generous and hard working people.”
So long as you are a man.
Women are basically men’s property under Islam. There was a doco on the ABC the other day about how women could not even divorce a man unless the man agrees. http://www.abc.net.au/tv/guide/abc1/201206/programs/DO0967H001D2012-06-21T213357.htm

Yeah, and Christians are well known for burning witches – I saw a documentary on it.

I’m really not 100% convinced that “Concerned Citizens of Canberra” are racists or bigots – from the look of it they’re just carrying on the Canberra NIMBY tradition.

Jivrashia said :

wrigbe said :

it would be good for my children to help broaden their world view

I was just about to write an essay on the benefit, or otherwise, of religious influence on adolescent minds.

But meh… That’s for another thread.
Just keep that damn bible away from my kids.

+1

miz said :

So long as you are a man.
Women are basically men’s property under Islam. There was a doco on the ABC the other day about how women could not even divorce a man unless the man agrees. http://www.abc.net.au/tv/guide/abc1/201206/programs/DO0967H001D2012-06-21T213357.htm

I’m sorry Miz, are you saying muslim women are unkind, ungenerous, and lazy? Or that no muslim men are kind and generous towards women?

Because both statements are, as generalisations, completely false (without reference to individual cases)

Given that we do not have islamic law in Australia muslim women are still making their own choices about how they live their lives.

HenryBG said :

How can you support the idea of building mosques?

As a supporter of secular civilisation, I personally am entirely opposed to the building of mosques. Our society has worked very hard to rid itself of religious domination, and now we bend over and ask an even worse religion to come and do its worst.

No mosques.

If people can set up shops entirely dedicated to ‘scrap-booking’ than who the hell are we to say that other people can’t have a mosque – both are equally pointless and an insult to secular civilisation.

Happy for people to worship whatever they want, I draw the line when they try to impose their beliefs on others.

Johnboy said: “It’s a religion full of kind, generous and hard working people.”
So long as you are a man.
Women are basically men’s property under Islam. There was a doco on the ABC the other day about how women could not even divorce a man unless the man agrees. http://www.abc.net.au/tv/guide/abc1/201206/programs/DO0967H001D2012-06-21T213357.htm

rosscoact said :

No call to prayer here. The call to prayer is for communities where the wristwatch is uncommon

Yeah sorry, I was being a bit mischievous to see the reaction.
Where i came from in the UK a similar slightly larger mosque was proposed which attracted the attention of the EDL, a bunch of bogan racists who travel the country rioting and smashing windows in defence of England. They climbed onto a factory roof with a HiFi system and blasted out a “call to prayer” at full volume in the middle of the night waking everybody up and warning them that this was what they could expect in future.
The new mosque of course, wasn’t going to have anything of the sort because people in the western world generally know what the time is anyway !

To be officially opened by MLA Mr Barr by chance ..

How long until some bright spark among the Liberal candidates gets on board this campaign?

No call to prayer here. The call to prayer is for communities where the wristwatch is uncommon

JimCharles said :

The only thing that complainants may have a valid point about is if the Mosque intends to employ a loudspeaker with a chanting call to prayer at dawn every day.
Sometimes though, this can sound quite mystical and add to the character of a place.

I would love to hear the call to prayer in the mornings again, it would remind me of Istanbul and I’m not even Muslim. Sure it might disturb some but I would rather be woken up by calls to prayer than the bogans next door blasting Miley Cyrus from their crapbox cars, or is that how Australian neighbors are supposed to treat each other?

miz said :

I know I wouldn’t want a mosque in my street if it was going to blare that incessant din.
I hope they have stopped that issue.
I have to say though I do agree with Henry – Islam (despite its appalling history-they are obviously in denial) aims to unite secular and religious govt. This goes against everything Aust (indeed, Western civilisation) stands for. Read the autobiog ‘Infidel’, by a Somali muslim. It makes clear that Islamic culture does not want to integrate at all, and gives real insight into the culture and why it should be anathema. Obviously, I am not anti individual Muslims nor their right to worship as they please, but unfortunately their own culture does not distinguish secular and religious elements and no one is ever allowed to leave. If Islam were Christian, it would be defined as a cult and we would be trying to rescue people from it!

Oh my goodness, no, no, no, no, no.

Lets start with this: the world population of people who identify as Muslim is estimated to be at around 1.57 billion people. Yes. Billion.

Do you think there’s ANY chance, any, that maybe within that 1.5 billion people (23% of the worlds population) there may be one or two (or maybe, I don’t know, hundreds) differing views, interpretations or legal or philosophical schools of Islam?

Because there is. This idea that “Islam” or “Muslims” want one thing is absurd. Islam as a religion is decentralised. Even beyond the Sunni/Shia divide, Muslims follow different legal schools, different modern and early religious leaders, put weight on different Hadith. The vast majority of this global population just want to live their lives. Just live them with peace and stability, following the fundamental tenants of their faith without any of this “aiming to unite secular and religious govt”. And even if a tiny group did dream of a utopian ideal of an Islamic state, it’s not here you crazy person, here where their population clocks in at about 2%. If you’re using a blog called “Infidel”, written by one person, in Somalia, to inform your views on Islam, you should probably try to mix it up.

I don’t know how people can totally accept and understand the difference between the Pope in the Vatican handing down edicts on contraception or abortion or anything else and your average Australian Catholic, who more often than not still believes they can be true to their faith while ignoring these is beyond me.

In conclusion. It’s a mosque! How in earths name do you even imagine it would contribute to aims to unite secular and religious govt? I just…. *shakes head*

wrigbe said :

it would be good for my children to help broaden their world view

I was just about to write an essay on the benefit, or otherwise, of religious influence on adolescent minds.

But meh… That’s for another thread.
Just keep that damn bible away from my kids.

*Sigh*

Can the mouth breathers please get some perspective about islam?

This is the religion that gave the world Omar Khayyam:

And, as the Cock crew, those who stood before
The Tavern shouted – “Open then the Door!
You know how little time we have to stay,
And once departed, may return no more.”

Or

If chance supplied a loaf of white bread,
Two casks of wine and a leg of mutton,
In the corner of a garden with a tulip-cheeked girl,
There’d be enjoyment no Sultan could outdo.

It’s the religion which holds Alp Arslan as one of its great heroes:

Emperor Romanos IV was himself taken prisoner and conducted into the presence of Alp Arslan, who treated him with generosity, and, terms of peace having been agreed to, dismissed him, loaded with presents and respectfully attended by a military guard. The following conversation is said to have taken place after Romanos was brought as a prisoner before the Sultan:

Alp Arslan: “What would you do if I was brought before you as a prisoner?”
Romanos: “Perhaps I’d kill you, or exhibit you in the streets of Constantinople.”
Alp Arslan: “My punishment is far heavier. I forgive you, and set you free.”

[So basically he’s a role model for Doctor Who (Around 5:30)]

It gave the world the Alhambra and the Taj Mahal.

It’s a religion full of kind, generous and hard working people.

Yes there are some bad people who hold the faith. There are bad people holding all faiths, and bad people who hold no faith.

Deref said :

No, that would be the Jews – the likes of the Stern Gang, generally accepted as the world’s first terrorists in the modern sense.

Worked like a charm, too.

*************************

Somebody else noticed.

UN won’t give you what you want? Blow people up, evict 800,000 people, and raze 400 villages so they have nowhere to return to and call it “Israel”.
And then the UN invites you to join them as a new member.
And anybody who rationally disagrees with the supposed “right” of Israel to exist is treated in the very same way as those who disagree with the idea of allowing islamic mosques to spring up around us.

Religion is for the stupids. Defend them and you’ve joined them. It’s nice being part of a majority, I guess.

poetix said :

I think you’ll agree that Yarralumla and the mosque are getting on just fine.

This is the same Yarralumla mosque where the police had to attend 4 years ago after Pakistani extremists backed by Saudi fundamentalists violently took over the mosque and violently beat up and ejected those who tried to stand up to them?

Because what we really need is yet another puddle of stupid spilled in Canberra.

The screaming irony in JB’s posts is that he brings up paedophilia in the catholic church as part of his defence of islam – clearly you need to spend some time in Pakistan to see why that is just so very funny.

Originally this was supposed to be in Nicholls near the school and I had a similar flyer sent to me by one of our politicans. I was less than impressed and sent him a reply telling him how happy I was that a mosque was going to be built near my children’s school as it would be good for my children to help broaden their world view (and hopefully the world view the politican!). Unfortunately it seems that polly won and the mosque got moved on. I hope it doesn’t get moved on again. The town centre near the Uniting Church seems like a good spot.

Hi All,

Can I suggest that people get informed via the CMC site http://www.cmc-au.org/project and elsewhere then if you like the look of the project send CMC a message of good will.

I have little doubt that the quiet majority of Canberra has no issue with the project at all but its important that we make that known, be it here, to CMC or in other settings. When the vocal minority of intolerance garners the most bandwidth we allow them to set the agenda and shape discussion.

Cheers,
C1

What we need to do is
Step 1. register for that meeting, and publish that location here.

Step 2. When they move the meeting location, see step 1.

I have no problem with them wanting to discuss the the issue of having a mosque in their backyard, but as they rightly point out honesty and transparency is important, and having a wide range of views represented at such meetings is also important. Or is that not the type of honesty and transparency these guys are looking for?

poetix said :

The mosque in Yarralumla has been operating for many years.

[bold]Geethanksforlettingeveryoneknownowtheyarralumlapropertypriceswillplummet[/bold]

They were doing such a god job of keeping the racism veiled*, right up until “the accepted way that Australian neighbours treat each other”. Better luck next time, guys.

*Heh.

Whats the issue? If it wasnt Muslims it would be Jews and if it wasnt jews it would be Hindu’s or Furrie’s etc

Religion, whether you believe it to be some skygod’s word sent down to guide man or man’s twisted invention to control the minds of other men,it is still just a way to control a society, its views and beliefs.

Personally, I think that if we just eliminated what was important to all 3 faiths then I think we can get along. Remove Temple Mount from Jerusalem and Jerusalem from the face of the Earth and then reduce the remaining area to the consistency of an Ikea sandbox under the permanent control of the Palestinians.

The mosque in Yarralumla has been operating for many years. Apparently it’s the second oldest continually operating mosque in Australia, which is quite amazing. So to all the bogans worried about some inevitable negative effect on real estate due to a mosque (which is probably what’s behind the racist distinction between the church up the road and the Islamic building) may I suggest you have a drive around Yarralumla?

I think you’ll agree that Yarralumla and the mosque are getting on just fine.

johnboy said :

HenryBG said :

fabforty said :

I am fairly confident that these “concerned citizens” would not be nearly as concerned if it was a Catholic Church of the same proportions being proposed.

Not many Australians killed by Catholic suicide bombers lately…

Thousands of Australian children sexually assaulted in the care of Catholic institutions though.

Sickening and vile….so many atrocities have been committed under the banner of religion.

.

Or here’s a good idea. You lead your life the way you think best (within the law), I’ll lead mine, and these guys can do their own thing too, which means having a gathering place just like peoples of lots of other faiths?

Entirely reasonable…all that’s required is a bit of tolerance.

Duffbowl said :

HenryBG said :

Not many Australians killed by Catholic suicide bombers lately…

Ahhhh, now we get to the crux of the situation for Poor Henry.

Best we deport all the Tamils, because it was an element in their society that first actively deployed suicide bombers on a large scale.

No, that would be the Jews – the likes of the Stern Gang, generally accepted as the world’s first terrorists in the modern sense.

Worked like a charm, too.

HenryBG said :

Not many Australians killed by Catholic suicide bombers lately…

Ahhhh, now we get to the crux of the situation for Poor Henry.

Best we deport all the Tamils, because it was an element in their society that first actively deployed suicide bombers on a large scale.
The Provos used suicide bombers to attack the Brits in the 1990s, even if the carrier was unwilling. So, we should paint all persons of Irish Catholic heritage with that brush as well.

HenryBG said :

fabforty said :

I am fairly confident that these “concerned citizens” would not be nearly as concerned if it was a Catholic Church of the same proportions being proposed.

Not many Australians killed by Catholic suicide bombers lately…

Thousands of Australian children sexually assaulted in the care of Catholic institutions though.

And while we’re at it far more muslims killed by islamic terrorism than non-muslims.

So I think you’ll find islamic terrorists are in bad odour with their congregationists.

Or here’s a good idea. You lead your life the way you think best (within the law), I’ll lead mine, and these guys can do their own thing too, which means having a gathering place just like peoples of lots of other faiths?

I know I wouldn’t want a mosque in my street if it was going to blare that incessant din.
I hope they have stopped that issue.
I have to say though I do agree with Henry – Islam (despite its appalling history-they are obviously in denial) aims to unite secular and religious govt. This goes against everything Aust (indeed, Western civilisation) stands for. Read the autobiog ‘Infidel’, by a Somali muslim. It makes clear that Islamic culture does not want to integrate at all, and gives real insight into the culture and why it should be anathema. Obviously, I am not anti individual Muslims nor their right to worship as they please, but unfortunately their own culture does not distinguish secular and religious elements and no one is ever allowed to leave. If Islam were Christian, it would be defined as a cult and we would be trying to rescue people from it!

fabforty said :

I am fairly confident that these “concerned citizens” would not be nearly as concerned if it was a Catholic Church of the same proportions being proposed.

Not many Australians killed by Catholic suicide bombers lately…

I think people have the right worship whatever deity they chose – it’s their right… however myself being a resident in the Gungahlin Marketplace area knowing that the current parking in Gungahlin is already horrendous. They decide to built a 500+ capacity Mosque in the area; It’s only going to create additional havoc unless the site has adequate parking to facilitate 100+ vehicles.

And if there is a loud speaker at the mosque and there is anything like they have in Jerusalem it’s not going to create character, far from it… It’s going to incite riots on a Sunday morning from the hungover masses in the area either it’ll be filled with expanding silicon foam or the wires will be cut. Regardless whether it is away from houses it’ll be close to several apartment complexes in the area.

I think it could be good for the Gungahlin community by having a mosque in the area but more than likely it will end badly. I think there is a stigma with Muslims in our community and fear mongering in the media with extremist attitudes hasn’t helped.

I say build the Mosque, but ensure that there is adequate parking and no bloody loud external speaker for morning/afternoon/evening prayers.

Could some kind person dig up a link to the fundies on Mt. Ainslie article for me, please? Or at least give a brief recap? Sorry, RA wasn’t really on my radar back then.

johnboy said :

Yes i-filed. I opposed the fundies intolerance then and I oppose this intolerance now.

+1

HenryBG said :

How can you support the idea of building mosques?

As a supporter of secular civilisation, I personally am entirely opposed to the building of mosques. Our society has worked very hard to rid itself of religious domination, and now we bend over and ask an even worse religion to come and do its worst.

No mosques.

eh .. take your uninformed crying to your next call for jury duty. We are not secular .. if the government can encourage chaplain based counselling programs, and fundies can stop gays from being married .. then, while I hate to rain on your fantasy, I feel you’re old enough to learn that we are not, in practice, a secular utopia.

JimCharles said :

http://www.cmc-au.org/project

The site is actually at the other end, near to Coles and away from houses…..and fairly close to the new Church.
The only thing that complainants may have a valid point about is if the Mosque intends to employ a loudspeaker with a chanting call to prayer at dawn every day.
Sometimes though, this can sound quite mystical and add to the character of a place.

The mosque would need a hella lotta mysticism to add character to the dustbowl. Each to their own, if the local churchies get to park all over my local street every Sunday and get away with it …

johnboy said :

Yes i-filed. I opposed the fundies intolerance then and I oppose this intolerance now.

He difference being those fundies were funny. These people are either genuinely concerned about a meeting place of medium size (which is very unlikely to be involved with drunken violence – the usual problem with “venues” these days), or they have a problem with the sort of people who want to run said venue. Other people. Different people. Scary people.

Religion is a toilet, racism is a urinal, the worst thing about this article is Gungahlin. (shudder)

Spectra said :

Honesty and transparency in communicating with others whom your actions may affect is the accepted way that Australian neighbors treat each other.”
…
There will be a private closed-door meeting…

Oh, won’t somebody please think of the irony!

That was my first thought too. Hypocrisy at its finest.

My second thought was maybe they aren’t racists and have some legitimate concerns. So what are they? According to the pamphlet:

1. Social impact – Besides being a different religious denomination and culture, the social impact will probably very similar to the Church that already exists a mere 200m from the proposed site, which went up without any community opposition.

2. Traffic and noise – The proposed site is in a town centre on a major road. It is also further away from existing residences than the 3 large shopping centres, hardware store, and senior college already in the area. Any noise and traffic impacts of a mosque are going to be completely insignificant relative to the noise and traffic generated by these other destinations.

3. Public interest – Providing an appropriate location for people to practice their religious traditions isn’t in the public interest?

4. Bulk scale and height – This one is a complete joke. The DA shows that the proposed mosque is a single story building. Oh, did I mention that there are 3+ story apartment buildings, a large school, and massive shopping centres already in the area? How exactly is a single story mosque going to dominate the “viewscape” in a way that these other buildings don’t already.

So as far as I can tell, the leaflet is almost entirely racially or religiously motivated.

Good day

I was born and raised Lutheran just in case my name confuses you, I am sad to think that Canberra is a place where there are still racists. I always thought it was a more intellectual environment. CCC/KKK I don’t see the difference. Education is the key to understanding might I suggest you give it a try.

Kaja
A very concerned citizen

I’m surprised it doesn’t have some line about luring students from the neighbouring college into their gingerbread house of jihad.

The flyer speaks of “honesty and transparency” yet is anonymous itself and its author, rather than holding a public meeting, will hold a private meeting

HenryBG said :

How can you support the idea of building mosques?

As a supporter of secular civilisation, I personally am entirely opposed to the building of mosques. Our society has worked very hard to rid itself of religious domination, and now we bend over and ask an even worse religion to come and do its worst.

No mosques.

I didn’t realise that we *had* gotten rid of our religious domination. I do believe our current Head of State is also the Defender of the Faith and Supreme Governor of the Anglican Church. We can’t hold debate on the topic of marriage for homosexuals without it being bogged down in dogma.

Are you equally opposed to churches, cathedrals, mashriqu’l-adhkar, viharas, wats, basilicas, minsters, chapels, capels, kirks, meeting houses, temples, kingdom halls, mandirs, synagogues, fanums, mithraeums, hofs, jinjas, gurdwaras, daoguans, ancestral places of worship, sacred groves/sites?

eq2 said :

I don’t have a problem with this mosque been built however the criticism of this letter is very aggressive. Although there may be racist motivations underlying this letter they are not overt. Try substituting the single term “mosque” for “hall” and then you can’t read any racism into the letter. Calling the author/s “ratbags”, “racists” and analogising them with the KKK is a little harsh. The KKK wrote letters that were much worse than this one.

The racism is about as covert as a pillow case over one’s head…

Whoever wrote the letter chose to emphasis the fact that it is a “mosque with a capacity of 500”.

I think describing this flyer as redolent of the Ku Klux Klan is drawing a very long bow, and probably serves to devalue the impact of objections to actual KKK behaviour.

Anyone remember the self-righteous tone on this board directed toward some unfortunate misguided fundamentalist Christians on Mt Ainslie a year or so back? The language used was far more aggressive and objectionable than this.

If you replaced “Mosque” in the letter with “McDonalds” or “petrol station” or “hardware store”, it really wouldn’t sound racist (or religious-ist?).

But when many other things have been proposed and built in Gungahlin the opposition (while some may have existed) hasn’t had the same air of negitivly. I can’t help but think the objection here is to something which will only be used by a smallish portion of the community, unlike KFC which obviously everyone uses. That is pretty füçkèd up.

Although I personally object to almost all religious activity on environmental grounds.

eq2 said :

I don’t have a problem with this mosque been built however the criticism of this letter is very aggressive. Although there may be racist motivations underlying this letter they are not overt. Try substituting the single term “mosque” for “hall” and then you can’t read any racism into the letter. Calling the author/s “ratbags”, “racists” and analogising them with the KKK is a little harsh. The KKK wrote letters that were much worse than this one.

Yes, but if you substituted the word church for mosque, would there even have been a letter?

johnboy said :

First someone needs to infiltrate and get the time and place of the secret meeting…

Is that a challenge coz i’m up to it even if i’m an agnostic athiest!

I am fairly confident that these “concerned citizens” would not be nearly as concerned if it was a Catholic Church of the same proportions being proposed.

I’m no racist but…

…I wish it was going to look more like a traditional mosque.

I don’t have a problem with this mosque been built however the criticism of this letter is very aggressive. Although there may be racist motivations underlying this letter they are not overt. Try substituting the single term “mosque” for “hall” and then you can’t read any racism into the letter. Calling the author/s “ratbags”, “racists” and analogising them with the KKK is a little harsh. The KKK wrote letters that were much worse than this one.

HenryBG said :

How can you support the idea of building mosques?

As a supporter of secular civilisation, I personally am entirely opposed to the building of mosques. Our society has worked very hard to rid itself of religious domination, and now we bend over and ask an even worse religion to come and do its worst.

No mosques.

-1
You are an idiot.

I can’t stand bigots with nothing better to do than be offended by, and interfere with, things that have 0 impact on their everyday lives. Can we get a counter-protest going maybe? We could get a bbq going, make sure we serve as much foreign cuisine as possible. Burn straw Klansmen in effigy, get some live ethnic music.

Hell if that doesn’t work, we can just start ourselves a good old fashioned lynch-mob and show ’em that progressive does not necessarily mean passive.

bigfeet said :

I’ve been wondering when the plans would be available to view. I just had a look at them on the ACTPLA website.

It seems to be a great looking building, the stylised minaret with ‘translucent feature panels” sounds interesting and certainly looks great on the elevation plans.

I’m thinking of spamming the klan’s email box, maybe signing them up to every mailing list I can find.

Would love to know what goes on in their ‘meeting’

God fearing christian porn only please

Maybe the CCC will give Mow-Down Jim a little bit of competition for the Mully. Putting the popcorn in the microwave as I type…

I’ve been wondering when the plans would be available to view. I just had a look at them on the ACTPLA website.

It seems to be a great looking building, the stylised minaret with ‘translucent feature panels” sounds interesting and certainly looks great on the elevation plans.

I’m thinking of spamming the klan’s email box, maybe signing them up to every mailing list I can find.

Would love to know what goes on in their ‘meeting’

Hello concerned people,

I am writing to say that I am also terribly concerned. I am concerned about the proposed John Paul College, to be built in Nicholls. The community has not been adequately consulted and our concerns have not been answered, regardless of the number of times that I approach relevant MLA’s with my concerned face prominently displayed.

If this school is to go ahead, I am concerned about the following:

1) Social impact
2) Traffic and Noise
3) Bulk scale and height

I shall now elaborate on these concerns.

The social impacts of this school could be wide ranging and irreversibly damaging to the Gungahlin community. Catholic schools all over the world are currently under investigation for numerous accusations of heinous abuse of children. With the school to be named after Pope John Paul II – soon to be beatified as the Patron Saint of Ignoring a Problem Unitl You Die – I fear that these problems will persist.

The traffic and noise that this school will create could also be extremely hazardous. Unlike other institutions that are only visited on certain specific days (like, for example, a mosque), schools are bombarded by hundreds of cars and buses, twice a day, five times a week. This 420 student capacity school will see a vast increase to the traffic of the surrounding area. And this is before mentioning the incessant ringing of the school bell which will have to be suffered by the local residents, even though they are adults and are allowed to have as long a recess as they please.

The bulk scale and height of the facility is also of concern to us very concerned citizens. Schools are large buildings. As evidence for this, I would ask you to look at any other school and then compare it to the size of any other prominent public building (like, for example, a mosque). I believe that you will find that the size of the school you are looking at is significantly larger than the size of the other building you have chosen, which for argument’s sake we will assume is a mosque.

It is our very concerned wish that the ACT Government act in a manner that is at least as transparent as your true motives.

There will be a closed-door meeting this Sunday to discuss the travesty that is the John Paul School. Once you have responded to this email, I will place a clue to the whereabouts of the meeting at a pre-determined drop-off point.

Regards,

Concerny McConcern

Koncerned Kittizen ask I can haz mosk?

by the way, if you look at the drawings on the ACTPLA website the building site is to the right of the aerial photo just under the “The Valle’ printing on the extreme right of the pic

How can you support the idea of building mosques?

As a supporter of secular civilisation, I personally am entirely opposed to the building of mosques. Our society has worked very hard to rid itself of religious domination, and now we bend over and ask an even worse religion to come and do its worst.

No mosques.

http://www.cmc-au.org/project

The site is actually at the other end, near to Coles and away from houses…..and fairly close to the new Church.
The only thing that complainants may have a valid point about is if the Mosque intends to employ a loudspeaker with a chanting call to prayer at dawn every day.
Sometimes though, this can sound quite mystical and add to the character of a place.

If this wasn’t so bad it would be funny in a ludicrous sort of a way. These slavering knuckleheads can kiss my…….

Honesty and transparency in communicating with others whom your actions may affect is the accepted way that Australian neighbors treat each other.”
…
There will be a private closed-door meeting…

Oh, won’t somebody please think of the irony!