Stanhope shafts Barr, will sell the schools to property developers

One alternative is to make a decision that, as a community, we are more interested in educating our kids to a high standard than we are in some other services, such as roads, parks, arboretums, dragways, rebranding government stationary, etc.
If Govco had any idea at all amount financial management it would understand the concepts of competing priorities, effective use of assets and delivering useful services. At the moment we get bullshit rhetoric and happy-clappy ideas, and no real support for what actually matters. The worst part is that this mess is going to take years to clean up once the current bunch of apes gets kicked out.

Why don’t you all collaborate together and produce a newer improved version of 2020 that takes into account:
1. Current students volumes
2. Projected demographics by suburb from the ABS and subsequent projected student volumes.
3. Current and future required public transport to/from schools.
4. Current and projected costs to run schools.
5. Current physical size and utilization of schools vs projected requirements.
6. Detail time schedules for each ‘area’ of canberra for theose changes.

and stop whinging about everything. There is nothing worse than a bunch of whiners who don’t actually come up with some sort of alternative.

Then you can you all email it to the CT and hopefully get some publicity about your new proposal and stick it to the govt.

or better yet, make an annoucement that you are running for public office and “show them hacks” how to administer the ACT public education system.

Nyssa,

The Tuggeranong figures quoted in the plan are all screwed up, take a look here:

http://towards2020.wordpress.com/2006/07/07/tuggeranong-figures-a-shambles/

Wanniassa Hills Primary will have an enrolment of 290 in 2010. It is Wanniassa Primary that will be at 185 by 2010. But by then it will be rolled into a P-10 school.

Richardson only has 180 pupils because they are assuming that 40 will go from Isabella Plains. Otherwise it’s enrolment would be 140.

The story beind the story for Tuggeranong is that these closures will only be the beginning. There will be pressure for more closures in the future.

This is why this “plan” stinks. There is nothing long term or strategic, it is just picking some winners and some losers based on current enrolments.

They need to step back and look at education provision 20 years from now. Why close Gilmore instead of Richardson? Why close Isabella Plains when in 5-10 years time it would probably make more sense to close Bonython.

Weston Creek is a mess. Previous school closures have meant that when Weston Primary shuts they are a LONG way away from any primary school. In retrospect it might have been better to keep one of the more central primary schools open.

Up north-west where I am they are closing schools in Melba and Flynn (adjacent suburbs) but Evatt will have two schools (and a Catholic Primary). Similarly Giralang will lose it’s school but Kaleen will have two, and a Catholic Primary.

The word I have (good source) is that the area directors were asked to finger schools in their area that could be axed. This is worrying, as the Department is a notoriously political place, so the relationship an area directory has with a principal and school could have had an impact on the decisions made. This is bad.

Can today be our “let’s be positive about stuff” day?

So in this story – he’s encouraging free enterprise and a vibrant non-government school sector?

Dear GuruJ,[link is just one doc that explains the dis-economies of scale in larger schools that are never factored in when there is an agenda to close the smaller ones. This whole amalgamation/middle-school crapola is a US educational fad that the US is now regretting and moving away from. We could well do without it as we already have a really well-laid-out system buily into the geography. The worst thing they could do is sell off the land so the schools can never be reclaimed. What the govt should be doing is investing bigtime in high schools, where some people tend to panic (all those raging hormones!) and move their kids to private (though god knows they are worse-behaved – ask any bus driver who does school runs. I have a family member who is one). nyssa76, hear hear about the P-10 at Chisholm – we don’t want it. And it is very galling that smaller schools than ours are remaining open! There is no consistency in the reasoning at all.

Add Mawson (160) and Farrer is close with 220 in 2010.

Idiots.

I’d love to know why, if the Govt had projected enrolments for 2010 – Tuggeranong is my area.

That Gowrie (160), Wanniassa Hills (185) and Richardson (180) PS will be under 200 two years after the 39 school closures is ridiculous.

If projected enrolments at other schools are also going to be lower than 200, then the argument that “lower numbers” is the reason that schools are closing is moot.

WTF is going on in this place? I’d be better off staying in the Non-Govt system and moving my children into it too.

The Chisholm P-10 school is a load of shite. Who comes up with such crap?

I want to know whether they got a promotion out of it too…which I know does happen in ACTDET ALOT.

I find it interesting that they depreciate schools over a 50 year period. What a load of ^%$^@#.

Holder high was built in the 70’s, and closed in the 90’s. Looks more like 20 years to me…

Cityboy,

Anytime you unitise costs by definition smaller schools will appear to be more expensive, as you are spreading fixed costs over a small number of pupils.

The question then, is, what are these fixed costs? And will they be saved if they close schools? One of the largest fixed costs is depreciation. The Government got the Australian Valuation Office to value all the schools in 2002 and this is how they figured out depreciation (straight line, 50 year time period).

Apart from the fact that noone “pays” depreciation, the numbers are wildly different for different schools. For example, Gold Creek is a new school so it has the highest annual depreciation bill of 398162, but Amaroo (another brand new school) has an annual depreciation of 25504!? This equates to a value of $1.275M. Clearly incorrect. When we rang the Dept they came up with some nonsense about it only being open 6 months at the time. i.e. it is a stuff up.

In any case, the Government budget papers have only projected savings from the closures based on some salary savings and Schools Based Management (SBM) costs. I have compiled a ranking of schools based on Salary and Schools Based Management. You can see it here:

http://towards2020.wordpress.com/2006/07/17/ranking-schools-by-salary-and-management-costs/

The case for school closures may or may not be compelling, but the Government has failed to make any case at all.

GuruJ: i would not wish the mess that is the health system funding on the education system.

It seems that for most posters on the forum the view is that the ACT schools system could be more efficient. It is just the Govt did a poor job of annoucing it.

Well if you’re going to change the consensus due to changed circumstances you’re supposed to make it clear in an election.

Elections too far apart? well that was the decision they made.

Pandy: Exactly. The government can achieve a 20-30% saving by running bigger public schools. That’s not small by anyone’s standards.

johnboy: Not sure how long “some time ago” is, but as far as I can see ACT citizens were “willing” to pay more while the Commonwealth government was picking up the tab and stamp duty revenue was through the roof. It’s easy to demand better schools when there’s heaps of cash, but when money dries up … well, let’s just say I haven’t seen a lot of people clamouring to give more money to the government.

Hey, how about a surcharge for people sending their kids to public schools who earn over $50,000 (like the Medicare levy surcharge)? Oh wait, that would ruin the idea of “free” public education.

On the subject of Cook school, Aranda already has a demountable at the junior end of the school. It suggests that they are already over capacity for the building. Macquarie is not a large school either.

Is this another case of Dickson College where the proposed plan leaves a whole bunch of students that have no school to go to and therefore must go into the private system?

It’s a moot point already because the policy will cause more parents to enrol their students in private education and thus negate the need to “boost” Govt school numbers.

If the Govt was transparent, maybe I’d see the logic in closing down so many school, however they haven’t and never will be.

And no, I didn’t vote for Labour.

Mate these pinkos voted ’em in – they bought the whole package, box and dice, including Labors (bogus) economic management credentials – it’s more than a tad hypocritical to squeal like a pig when the Government actually do more than funding feel-good projects and pandering to lame-arse minorities. If the Governments opponents really believe in the nirvana-promise of a respectable public education for our young it’s about time that the watermelons in the ‘burbs opposing these much needed changes realise that the solutions might actually mean that their kids get the education they crave in a sustainable school system as opposed to continuing down the road of half empty schools serving up an ordinary education. In a couple of year’s time when public enrolments drop below private it will be a mute point.

Big Al, the Govt isn’t trying to stem the tide – it’s started the tsunami!

Also, I forgot to add earlier that all the little “darlings” from individual schools that will now come together at one school will cause no end of problems for students, teachers and support staff.

So where’s the money going to come from to put into expanding the Northside and Southside support centres to assist with these students?

Oh that’s right, there isn’t any. Can we leave them at the Legislative Assembly for Barr and Sonic to watch?

Guru the average weighted cost for schools less than 200 is around $11,500. A far cry from the figures that they were pushing of $19,000.

So what you say? It is still more than the $8,000 per student that the Govco wants achieve.

Not really much of a problem for the tide of families heading to a private education for their kids. It’s just a shame that the Governments efforts to stem that tide are being stymied by those who would oppose desperately needed change simply because they lack the vision to see the cure and would rather fight the treatment – it’s like trying to get a pill into a cat!

I also have reservations re: consultation period. Check today’s article in the CT about it.

Schools that do close will be made known by the 21 December, the last day of the school year. Schools aren’t “operational” for 4 weeks after that date so the parents who are forced to change schools will be unable to do so until January.

Book packs orders are due in November, there’s a fee attached for “late” orders – will ACTDET pay it?; the uniform shop isn’t open until the week before school – late January; bus timetables will be out god knows when; there is the possibility that schools close to those being closed will not have the room and will need demountables, which in summer usually don’t come with airconditioning and are VERY hot; student file transfers and updating of students with special needs etc can and will get lost amongst the “rush” to sort out the students entering a new school because of the closures and finally, the teacher transfer round is out in about 3 weeks. Teachers won’t know where they will be placed until the week before school ends. For those who are in a “closing” school, there will also be a headache for staffing in trying to organise placements before January – the busiest time for staffing in the entire year.

See school closures aren’t just cut and dry, there are far more things under the surface that Barr and Sonic aren’t address, nor will they any time before 21 December.

The other point is that the ACT reached a consensus some time ago that we were willing to pay for more than the cheapest possible education system.

GuruJ, I’ll let you in on a little secret….I’ve seen the policy manual. I’ve used it in ACTDET to verify policies. There are steps which MUST be followed before a policy can be accepted by the CEO of ACTDET and the Minister.

Previous statistics offered up by the Govt have already been refuted as over 9yrs old.

I have said earlier (not in this thread) that the % of classes in a Govt high school have been abused – my own classroom was tabled as being 80% full on any given day. However, with 7 lines and thus 7 classes in that room throughout the timetable the classroom was being used at 100%. I was not alone in this and almost 90% if classrooms were not represented correctly by ACTDET.

The figures have been “written” to suit the argument of ACTDET. DECS no longer exists.

If the figures are right, then why is Barr dodging a public enquiry?

Why are parents and teachers bring true classroom usage to light? Why are schools demonstrating a different % of enrolments as ACTDET?

As for the aging population, I was thinking along the lines of “Logan’s Run” to be honest.

on nyssa76’s earlier post: Yeah, yeah, I know. There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies and statistics. Right?

Well, I’m sorry, but you don’t get off that lightly. The ACT government has presented facts and figures which strongly point to the conclusion that larger schools deliver public education at a lower price. Unless you are accusing the ACT government of plucking figures out of thin air, that graph shows (School Budget / No. of enrolments). There’s not much wriggle room there.

If you want to refute these figures, either explain why these figures are wrong, or present alternate statistics which come to a different conclusion. Otherwise, I’d say the ACT Government has a valid argument.

I’m not sure what DECS steps you are referring to — the six month consultation? That’s what is happening now. I’ll say it again: it is NOT feasible to consult the community on a fuzzy idea. If the government made an announcement after the consultation period, people would just say, “oh, well that’s what they were going to do all along.” The government can’t win!

By announcing the government’s plan up front, at least people can debate the detail rather than a vague policy idea — “oh, we need to close some schools”. I know which way around I prefer it.

Your last paragraph about the government’s ultimate aim is just plain wrongheaded. For all the ALP’s flaws, it takes social issues very seriously and even the most right-wing ALP person wants a vibrant, high-quality public education system. When Andrew Barr and others say they are aiming for “quality, not quantity”, I believe them.

on nyssa’s second post: What were you planning to do with the ageing population — leave them to clog up our hospital system??

Converting schools to retirement villas (where people normally buy their place, I might add) seems like a prudent move as the number of elderly in our society increases.

Schools will most likely become old age homes. God knows there will be enough of them in 5 yrs.

Typical though, the baby boomers once again get something for nothing and the youth are shafted again.

Leave the schools alone and take a better look at why the budget was in the red to begin with. Could it be all the “new” stationery needed for the constant changing of names of Govt Depts?

Why not offer it for development of homes for the elderly/aged?

Sonic shafts Barr!!!! RMOTFLOL

If only you knew the truth of it.

GuruJ, I would seriously doubt those figures. Statistics can be bastardised to suit anyone’s thinking.

However, under ACTDET (thus the ACT Govt) there are actually steps to take before pushing a policy out the door.

These steps weren’t taken.

Given that it does rip ACT Education to shreds, one would have thought that a thorough consultation process take place. Community consultation is undertaken to ensure that everyone is educated on the process and that everyone has a say – apparently that’s what happens in a democracy.

And I don’t mean the “we’re closing schools but now we’ll have consultation” dictatorship crap spouted from the Minster and Sonic.

My favourite paragraph from the Budget document is this: Compounding the loss to the private system has been a distinct demographic
shift,

It should continue on with “which will further increase with the closure of local schools. By 2020 we shall see no need for Govt education as most parents will have placed their children into Non-Govt schools to maintain their child’s learning is not interrupted by school closures.”

There’s been lots of talk about how the government has failed to deliver on community consultation, but really, what was it supposed to do??

The Budget paper titled “For the Future” shows the cost of running ACT schools, and this graph is pretty unambiguous: Schools smaller than 300 pupils are more expensive to run.

Any responsible government looking to save money would have to close these down.

Government is about having the guts to make unpopular (but necessary) changes and stick with them unless the community can demonstrate unintended outcomes from the proposal — exactly what we are going through now.

It’s not feasible to run community consultation by saying, “Oh, we’re closing some schools but the community has to select which schools will close.” Can you imagine the pain and tears with sections of the community fighting each other to save “their” school? It would take literally years to come to any sort of consensus…

Gated Communities. Very likely. Glen Eagles Esatate: Keeps the riff-raff from upper Kambah out.

A gated community on the hill at Bruce with battlements from which Emperor Sonic can play his fiddle. mmm now that is a thought

Class warfare seige-town? Oh man – I haven’t heard talk like that since being hassled by the Anarchists back in my Uni days…

Cityboy – Leasing the land is dubious public policy, IMO. I think some schools could be sold without any detriment to the areas. For example, Cook is well serviced (by nearby Macquarie and Aranda primaries) but some will be a serious problem in the future. Dickson College is a prime example, given that the population of the inner north is bloated with Gen-Xers with young families. It’s going to be a shock for them in 7-10 years time when there’s no highschool/college in the area. If the land is all sold off, it’s not like they can just “build another one”.

I really hope Barr et al think VERY carefully before they flog any of the land off. Once again, I’m not hopeful.

seepi: Do we really need more community space in Canberra? There seems to be enough decaying community halls scatter around town already. Also the idea of business incubators would need to considered on a case by case basis many school locations would be in locations unsuitable for businesses.

Selling / leasing the land for redevelopment appears to be the sensible policy outcome. Rather than maintaining un-needed infrastructure.

Big Al: gated communities (disgusting class-warfare siege towns that they are) are quite possible in the ACT, it’s just that the fact that the community has to organise their own garbage collection etc tends to make it so expensive that no-one’s willing to pay for the privilege.

I’m too enraged to say anything sensible about this. I’ll be back later when I’ve had a valium.

Oh, dear. Nero’s fallen off the deep end. Anybody want to remind the rest of his party that they can get the knives out any time they like?

Lets see Andrew wriggle out of this: “I was misquoted”; “The real question is” Yada, yada, yada.

Lets hope Sonic (may he rot in hell) sells the Stanhope Memorial Arboretum for ‘afforadable housing’.

Just wait until they sell the land….the lies are there, we just have to pressure the Govt to actually tell the truth. Not that they will.

But what message are we sending to the students of the ACT? “Your small school doesn’t meet “our” needs, bugger your needs, we’ll sell it anyway”.

Personally, I would have loved to have been on the “non-existant” policy committee before the policy was made public. You know the one, where they consult stakeholders BEFORE the policy is out and BEFORE a full community consultation takes place.

I wonder what Hugh Mackay would say, given his input into the Social Plan, about the whole school closures issue. Johnboy could you rustle up an interview?

Good on ’em – now if they could only cross the hurdle of gated communities – now there’s real estste that would bring a nice premium.

So Corbell, Berry, MacDonald, and Gallagher dont support the proposal for schools, and Andrew Barr has not managed the message correctly. So does that mean its Stanhope and Hargreaves versus the rest of his party???

Previous closed schools have become office space for community groups, start-up businesses etc, without changing the building too much. This means the grounds are retained for recreational use, and the school could be reopened when the population changes.
High density units will increase the population of an area, but there will bo nowhere to put a school.
Or we will end up with the kind of cramped inner city school I went to in melbourne – no outdoor space, not a blade of grass, and no assembly hall.

It’s interesting because he spent the first five years coming up with intricate and voluminous public “plans” for the future.

Now everything’s being driven by a secret review document.

They are now changing their story. There was a clear message after the Budget that there was no sell off of assets planned. But the truth of the matter is we did not expect them to leave empty schools sites permanently vacant. Stanhope and his team need to come clean on what they plan to do. They keep getting themselves into more and more trouble by not being upfront about their plans. Theirs in very much a case study now in how not to handle a public policy issue effectively.