Teacher protest 2011 style

Jim Jones said :

[I never stated that my anecdotal evidence was indicative of general public opinion – in fact, I stated baldly that “that probably says as much about the people I mix with as it does about public perception of the strike”. (Which was answered by the usual right-wingers with howls of derision for anyone who would dare support pay parity for ACT teachers).

[huge amounts of sarcasm]It’s really bad when people put words into your mouth isn’t it Jim? [/huge amounts of sarcasm]

Oh please please pleeeease say something about the education sector being run by evil, lefty, feminazi, PC, gay agenda blah blah blah whatever.

It would just make everything so perfect.

Mysteryman said :

Jim Jones said :

Mysteryman said :

Jim Jones said :

Mysteryman said :

Jim Jones said :

Mysteryman said :

I don’t know who you hang around with, Jim, but I’d wager they aren’t totally informed on the issue – especially if you’re asking the questions.

Parents and teachers who think that ACT teachers should be paid in parity with their colleagues in other states are ill-informed, are they?

Teachers are hardly going to have a fair an impartial perspective on the matter.

As for parents, I doubt very much that many of them even know what a teacher in NSW or the ACT earns or how many hours a week they work. So yes, I’m betting that most of them are ill-informed.

So teachers and parents are ill-informed then. Parents know too little about teachers, and teachers apparently know too much. Presumably we should be looking to disinterested teenagers or something for advice on education policy.

I’m suggesting that people should be presented with the whole picture (a concept I know you struggle to understand) before we place any importance on their conclusions. I doubt you gave them any information regarding current rates of pay before you conducted your iron-clad and apparently statistically sound research.

I’m also suggesting that if the people you associate with are anything like yourself, we probably shouldn’t listen to them at all.

Let me get this straight – when discussing levels of public support for a strike by teachers in the ACT, we should disregard the actual levels of public support by the actual people of the ACT … because they’re all misinformed?

Did I get that right?

Not really even close. Pay attention, now, and maybe you’ll get it…

You made a comment about asking your friends if teachers should be paid at the NSW rate, and them all agreeing with you. You also implied foolishly that your anecdotal evidence must be indicative of the general opinion of the entire ACT public.

I suggested that your friends probably don’t even know the details of the situation (and that you would most certainly neglect to get them enough information to make an INFORMED decision), and as such should not be considered:

a) an accurate representation of the ACT public, or
b) an accurate representation of an informed group of people.

I also implied that the teachers (which I don’t believe you even spoke to, despite what you say) that you referred to will say whatever they think will result in more money, and as such shouldn’t be considered a fair representation of the ACT public’s stance on the issue.

Did I dumb that down enough for you? Would you like me to draw you a picture? I can link to some dictionary definitions of the word “informed”, if you’d like.

Epic fail dude.

I never stated that my anecdotal evidence was indicative of general public opinion – in fact, I stated baldly that “that probably says as much about the people I mix with as it does about public perception of the strike”. (Which was answered by the usual right-wingers with howls of derision for anyone who would dare support pay parity for ACT teachers).

If you want info on the public opinion towards the action why not look at Tom Greenwell’s post in a related thread:

“In a Canberra Times online poll (http://www.canberratimes.com.au/polls/) over 52.6% of respondents agree that “Yes they should strike. ACT teachers deserve pay parity with NSW.
(52.6%)”. A further 22.6% think that “ACT teachers deserve equal pay, but they shouldn’t take strike action that might disadvantage students.”.

A poll of 400 Canberrans commissioned by the AEU and conducted by indpendent research company, Kudos Research, found 88% of Canberrans support pay parity with NSW (http://www.canberratimes.com.au/news/local/news/general/teachers-set-to-flood-citys-heart-in-protest/2304821.aspx).

The ACT P&C has repeatedly expressed support for the teachers’ campaign, including at yesterday’s rally.”

But don’t let that influence your opinion. Obviously you know best.

Jim Jones said :

Mysteryman said :

Jim Jones said :

Mysteryman said :

Jim Jones said :

Mysteryman said :

I don’t know who you hang around with, Jim, but I’d wager they aren’t totally informed on the issue – especially if you’re asking the questions.

Parents and teachers who think that ACT teachers should be paid in parity with their colleagues in other states are ill-informed, are they?

Teachers are hardly going to have a fair an impartial perspective on the matter.

As for parents, I doubt very much that many of them even know what a teacher in NSW or the ACT earns or how many hours a week they work. So yes, I’m betting that most of them are ill-informed.

So teachers and parents are ill-informed then. Parents know too little about teachers, and teachers apparently know too much. Presumably we should be looking to disinterested teenagers or something for advice on education policy.

I’m suggesting that people should be presented with the whole picture (a concept I know you struggle to understand) before we place any importance on their conclusions. I doubt you gave them any information regarding current rates of pay before you conducted your iron-clad and apparently statistically sound research.

I’m also suggesting that if the people you associate with are anything like yourself, we probably shouldn’t listen to them at all.

Let me get this straight – when discussing levels of public support for a strike by teachers in the ACT, we should disregard the actual levels of public support by the actual people of the ACT … because they’re all misinformed?

Did I get that right?

Not really even close. Pay attention, now, and maybe you’ll get it…

You made a comment about asking your friends if teachers should be paid at the NSW rate, and them all agreeing with you. You also implied foolishly that your anecdotal evidence must be indicative of the general opinion of the entire ACT public.

I suggested that your friends probably don’t even know the details of the situation (and that you would most certainly neglect to get them enough information to make an INFORMED decision), and as such should not be considered:

a) an accurate representation of the ACT public, or
b) an accurate representation of an informed group of people.

I also implied that the teachers (which I don’t believe you even spoke to, despite what you say) that you referred to will say whatever they think will result in more money, and as such shouldn’t be considered a fair representation of the ACT public’s stance on the issue.

Did I dumb that down enough for you? Would you like me to draw you a picture? I can link to some dictionary definitions of the word “informed”, if you’d like.

Mysteryman said :

I’m also suggesting that if the people you associate with are anything like yourself, we probably shouldn’t listen to them at all.

+1

Mysteryman said :

Jim Jones said :

Mysteryman said :

Jim Jones said :

Mysteryman said :

I don’t know who you hang around with, Jim, but I’d wager they aren’t totally informed on the issue – especially if you’re asking the questions.

Parents and teachers who think that ACT teachers should be paid in parity with their colleagues in other states are ill-informed, are they?

Teachers are hardly going to have a fair an impartial perspective on the matter.

As for parents, I doubt very much that many of them even know what a teacher in NSW or the ACT earns or how many hours a week they work. So yes, I’m betting that most of them are ill-informed.

So teachers and parents are ill-informed then. Parents know too little about teachers, and teachers apparently know too much. Presumably we should be looking to disinterested teenagers or something for advice on education policy.

I’m suggesting that people should be presented with the whole picture (a concept I know you struggle to understand) before we place any importance on their conclusions. I doubt you gave them any information regarding current rates of pay before you conducted your iron-clad and apparently statistically sound research.

I’m also suggesting that if the people you associate with are anything like yourself, we probably shouldn’t listen to them at all.

Let me get this straight – when discussing levels of public support for a strike by teachers in the ACT, we should disregard the actual levels of public support by the actual people of the ACT … because they’re all misinformed?

Did I get that right?

johnboy said :

I can’t help but think pay parity has not been an issue in the last 11 years we’ve been watching this space.

Was there a push for parity at times NSW was earning less?

Of course there wasn’t. There isn’t a push for parity with the states that currently pay less, either.

Jim Jones said :

Mysteryman said :

Jim Jones said :

Mysteryman said :

I don’t know who you hang around with, Jim, but I’d wager they aren’t totally informed on the issue – especially if you’re asking the questions.

Parents and teachers who think that ACT teachers should be paid in parity with their colleagues in other states are ill-informed, are they?

Teachers are hardly going to have a fair an impartial perspective on the matter.

As for parents, I doubt very much that many of them even know what a teacher in NSW or the ACT earns or how many hours a week they work. So yes, I’m betting that most of them are ill-informed.

So teachers and parents are ill-informed then. Parents know too little about teachers, and teachers apparently know too much. Presumably we should be looking to disinterested teenagers or something for advice on education policy.

I’m suggesting that people should be presented with the whole picture (a concept I know you struggle to understand) before we place any importance on their conclusions. I doubt you gave them any information regarding current rates of pay before you conducted your iron-clad and apparently statistically sound research.

I’m also suggesting that if the people you associate with are anything like yourself, we probably shouldn’t listen to them at all.

Mysteryman said :

Jim Jones said :

Mysteryman said :

I don’t know who you hang around with, Jim, but I’d wager they aren’t totally informed on the issue – especially if you’re asking the questions.

Parents and teachers who think that ACT teachers should be paid in parity with their colleagues in other states are ill-informed, are they?

Teachers are hardly going to have a fair an impartial perspective on the matter.

As for parents, I doubt very much that many of them even know what a teacher in NSW or the ACT earns or how many hours a week they work. So yes, I’m betting that most of them are ill-informed.

So teachers and parents are ill-informed then. Parents know too little about teachers, and teachers apparently know too much. Presumably we should be looking to disinterested teenagers or something for advice on education policy.

Jim Jones said :

Mysteryman said :

I don’t know who you hang around with, Jim, but I’d wager they aren’t totally informed on the issue – especially if you’re asking the questions.

Parents and teachers who think that ACT teachers should be paid in parity with their colleagues in other states are ill-informed, are they?

Teachers are hardly going to have a fair an impartial perspective on the matter.

As for parents, I doubt very much that many of them even know what a teacher in NSW or the ACT earns or how many hours a week they work. So yes, I’m betting that most of them are ill-informed.

Mysteryman said :

I don’t know who you hang around with, Jim, but I’d wager they aren’t totally informed on the issue – especially if you’re asking the questions.

Parents and teachers who think that ACT teachers should be paid in parity with their colleagues in other states are ill-informed, are they?

I can’t help but think pay parity has not been an issue in the last 11 years we’ve been watching this space.

Was there a push for parity at times NSW was earning less?

I’m seeing a number of comments along the lines of “people won’t support teachers if they are inconvenienced by their actions”

To what extent exactly are these people going out of their way to support teachers – by contacting local MLAs in support of the pay claims etc – in between these actions?

Ben_Dover said :

People will not support teachers if they are put out by a strike. If teachers are seen to be making their protest in a way which does not interfere with the school day, or with the parents work, then people are more likely to support them.

That theory has a massive hole in it, and is pretty conclusively disproven by the levels of community support for the action being taken. Stats have been provided earlier.

And in what world does a strike that doesn’t affect anyone have any efficacy?

You’ve been provided with both anecdotal evidence *and* some cited stats on community support for the action, yet your response to a poster was “why not STFU and listen”?

So, could these stats and anecdotal “evidence” not be improved on?

Yes, no doubt more community support could be garnered – but the group is attempting to achieve an objective (pay parity), which needs to target the government, as well as the public at large. Having public support alone isn’t enough to change anything.

Jim Jones said :

Ben_Dover said :

Why not join in the debate Jim?

A debate that consists of you telling people to STFU and listen?

It was a question Jim. Not a statement. If people are making mistakes, then it is in their interest to learn.
People will not support teachers if they are put out by a strike. If teachers are seen to be making their protest in a way which does not interfere with the school day, or with the parents work, then people are more likely to support them.

You’ve been provided with both anecdotal evidence *and* some cited stats on community support for the action, yet your response to a poster was “why not STFU and listen”?

So, could these stats and anecdotal “evidence” not be improved on?

Jim Jones said :

Ben_Dover said :

Gerry-Built said :

Mysteryman said :

Usually when industrial action inconveniences me, though, I tend to get more annoying with the strikers and I’m less likely to side with them.

wow. It must be truly inconvenient for parents to have to look after their own children. You know, whilst a profession fights to keep standards high for the future for the profession and education system.

When people point out to you that your strike is counter productive as it is alienating the group whose support you need most, why not STFU and listen?

A quick ask-around about attitudes towards the teacher’s strike at a few workplaces and friends/family saw a unanimous reply of ‘just give them more money’.

Don’t know how you interpret that as ‘counter productive and alienating the group whose support you need most’.

I’d suggest that you need to STFU and listen instead of making assumptions that don’t appear to be even slightly on the money.

I don’t know who you hang around with, Jim, but I’d wager they aren’t totally informed on the issue – especially if you’re asking the questions.

Ben_Dover said :

Why not join in the debate Jim?

A debate that consists of you telling people to STFU and listen?

You’ve been provided with both anecdotal evidence *and* some cited stats on community support for the action, yet your response to a poster was “why not STFU and listen”?

Jim Jones said :

A quick ask-around about attitudes towards the teacher’s strike at a few workplaces and friends/family saw a unanimous reply of ‘just give them more money’.

It’s funny how people are so quick to take this position when they (incorrectly) think that it’s not going to cost them any money. Contrast this to the inevitable bleating whenever childcare workers ask for an increase in their meagre wage.

Bluey said :

Until education is nationalised across all states and territories this circus will continue forever.

National curriculum, national pay scales. Moving to NSW wont be lucrative anymore, they pay the exact same as anywhere else.

Chances of this happening. Snowflakes chance in hell. It makes far too much sense to be implemented.

I agree with your points. We are a small enough (population wise) nation to have a national wage standard for most public employees.

Jim Jones said :

[
A quick ask-around about attitudes towards the teacher’s strike at a few workplaces and friends/family saw a unanimous reply of ‘just give them more money’.

Oh boy! Jim asked his mate what he thought!

I’d suggest that you need to STFU and listen instead of making assumptions that don’t appear to be even slightly on the money.

Why not join in the debate Jim?

Jim Jones said :

Ben_Dover said :

Gerry-Built said :

Mysteryman said :

Usually when industrial action inconveniences me, though, I tend to get more annoying with the strikers and I’m less likely to side with them.

wow. It must be truly inconvenient for parents to have to look after their own children. You know, whilst a profession fights to keep standards high for the future for the profession and education system.

When people point out to you that your strike is counter productive as it is alienating the group whose support you need most, why not STFU and listen?

A quick ask-around about attitudes towards the teacher’s strike at a few workplaces and friends/family saw a unanimous reply of ‘just give them more money’.

Don’t know how you interpret that as ‘counter productive and alienating the group whose support you need most’.

I’d suggest that you need to STFU and listen instead of making assumptions that don’t appear to be even slightly on the money.

Sure. Give them more money.

Then WA can have a whinge about being the least paid, we’ll give them more money too. Oh no now QLD is the least paid, better give them more money and on it goes.

Until education is nationalised across all states and territories this circus will continue forever.

National curriculum, national pay scales. Moving to NSW wont be lucrative anymore, they pay the exact same as anywhere else.\

Chances of this happening. Snowflakes chance in hell. It makes far too much sense to be implemented.

Ben_Dover said :

Gerry-Built said :

Mysteryman said :

Usually when industrial action inconveniences me, though, I tend to get more annoying with the strikers and I’m less likely to side with them.

wow. It must be truly inconvenient for parents to have to look after their own children. You know, whilst a profession fights to keep standards high for the future for the profession and education system.

When people point out to you that your strike is counter productive as it is alienating the group whose support you need most, why not STFU and listen?

A quick ask-around about attitudes towards the teacher’s strike at a few workplaces and friends/family saw a unanimous reply of ‘just give them more money’.

Don’t know how you interpret that as ‘counter productive and alienating the group whose support you need most’.

I’d suggest that you need to STFU and listen instead of making assumptions that don’t appear to be even slightly on the money.

Gerry-Built said :

Mysteryman said :

Usually when industrial action inconveniences me, though, I tend to get more annoying with the strikers and I’m less likely to side with them.

wow. It must be truly inconvenient for parents to have to look after their own children. You know, whilst a profession fights to keep standards high for the future for the profession and education system.

When people point out to you that your strike is counter productive as it is alienating the group whose support you need most, why not STFU and listen?

Mysteryman said :

Usually when industrial action inconveniences me, though, I tend to get more annoying with the strikers and I’m less likely to side with them.

wow. It must be truly inconvenient for parents to have to look after their own children. You know, whilst a profession fights to keep standards high for the future for the profession and education system.

The importance of being able to attract and retain teachers to the ACT system cannot be underestimated. We have a very successful education system, if not the most successful education system in Australia… perhaps the workers that ensure this system performs at a high level are due wages that reflect this. Teachers are asking for parity with teachers in NSW (which still won’t make us the highest paid teachers in Australia). Competitive wages are one way of ensuring Canberra attracts a continued stream of quality teachers, which will continue to help the ACT system to remain one of the best performers in Australia. Instead, the ACT Government has made two or three offers that will see Canberra Teachers be the lowest paid teachers in Australia by the end of the three year agreement.

Whilst much has been made of the differences between the NSW and ACT systems, the fact remains that we do essentially the same job, with essentially the same conditions as our counterparts in any other state or territory, and we should be entitled to a wage that is more competitive, essentially so that teaching in the ACT is at least as attractive as our neighbouring state. Teachers shouldn’t have to threaten, nor engage, in Industrial Action simply to ensure conditions that are more equitable with those of other jurisdictions; particularly when we deliver a better result for the children of the ACT.

No matter how DET and the ACT Government want to dress and massage the figures, there has been a drop in the number of applications to teach in the ACT in the 5 years since wages became less competitive. That decrease is not likely to improve with an ever-widening gap.

Mysteryman said :

Of course they couldn’t. The idea is to inconvenience people in order to make their voice heard.

Usually when industrial action inconveniences me, though, I tend to get more annoying with the strikers and I’m less likely to side with them.

..as opposed to when it doesn’t inconvenience you, and you don’t even notice it happened.

Where is that art work? I have a sudden urge to take a skate board to it. Speaking of which, the little man from the 3 men on a stairway in Civic seems to have gone missing again.

Jim Jones said :

Ben_Dover said :

Jim Jones said :

Most parents I’ve spoken to, even if they were significantly inconvenienced, were very sympathetic to the strike.

Mind you, that probably says as much about the people I mix with as it does about public perception of the strike.

The unemployed?

I was thinking more along the lines of: “people who are intelligent enough to realise that action taken to increase the quality of education their children receives is important, rather than treating school like some glorified form of daycare”.

zing!

“Having been a teacher in a former life I sympathise on the issue of lousy pay but could they not have had the meeting at say 3:30 pm? They’re hurting the kids by not showing up to work and doing their jobs.”

+1

Jim Jones said :

I was thinking more along the lines of: “people who are intelligent enough to realise that action taken to increase the quality of education their children receives is important, rather than treating school like some glorified form of daycare”.

Ah, a sound rebuttal of an argument which no one has made. Well done. Any more windmills around here?

A bit late, but this:

“They came to Civic Square, they waved their red flags, they lurched slowly left to right in time to John Lennon covers, they congratulated each other for being there, and they were very sure that giving themselves more money is in the best interests of the future of civilisation.”

was bloody good!

What a pointless event, more like a parody of an industrial meeting, like something people would do who’ve read about stop-work meetings but never actually experienced a proper one.

Ben_Dover said :

Jim Jones said :

Most parents I’ve spoken to, even if they were significantly inconvenienced, were very sympathetic to the strike.

Mind you, that probably says as much about the people I mix with as it does about public perception of the strike.

The unemployed?

I was thinking more along the lines of: “people who are intelligent enough to realise that action taken to increase the quality of education their children receives is important, rather than treating school like some glorified form of daycare”.

Jim Jones said :

Most parents I’ve spoken to, even if they were significantly inconvenienced, were very sympathetic to the strike.

Mind you, that probably says as much about the people I mix with as it does about public perception of the strike.

The unemployed?

Not all of us had the whole morning to devote to flag waving and singing songs about Andrew Barr.

More’s the pity.

johnboy said: “They really don’t like funding for football teams, which is fair enough, but in the 5 mintues I was there while football was brought up many times there was less explanation of the benefit to education of spending more money on teachers.”

It’s a pity you only joined us for 5 minutes – and missed the substance of what was said – before reporting the event. AEU Acting Secretary Glenn Fowler explained how uncompetitive salaries have led to a chronic shortage of school counsellors (20 schools without one altogether) and relief teachers. The ACT P&C expressed their support for the action that teachers are taking. Former public education student, Nick Preston, described the enormous contribution teachers had made to his life and why he, like the majority of Canberrans, feels teachers are underpaid.

johnboy said: “A strain of luddism was in the air, referring (IIRC) to computers as “infernal machines”. (It’s only been an education trend for 30+years, surely coming to grips with computers should have been part of their own professional development?)”

Watch out for jokes from old-timers… They’re often very subtle! If you’re interested, this is what I do with technology to assist my student’s learning: http://www.cliojournal.com .

johnboy said: “The protest markers were not entirely filled by bodies, which makes one wonder if turnout was below expectations.”

The Canberra Times reports attendance of 1500 (http://www.canberratimes.com.au/news/local/news/education/teachers-rally-for-better-pay/2305016.aspx) – an overwhelming expression of dissatisfaction with the Government’s offer.

Interesting speculation about the protest markers but I’m just not sure that the person who put out the witches hats would have been able to predict that precisely the exact area the anticipated turnout would consume. More likely, they were concerned that there was sufficient space for people to access the theatre, library and assembly, don’t you think?

Ben_Dover said :

what_the said :

Ben_Dover said :

Don’t you think a protest which didn’t affect kids schooling may be looked on with more good will by the people who they are trying to influence?

They’re not trying to win over the public, they’re trying to get more pay. If the public is inconvenienced, they complain ot the people who pay the teachers, ie the government. That’s the point.

I think with the reputation that teachers have, and unions have, then geting the public onside would be more productive than pissing them off.

Most parents I’ve spoken to, even if they were significantly inconvenienced, were very sympathetic to the strike.

Mind you, that probably says as much about the people I mix with as it does about public perception of the strike.

what_the said :

Ben_Dover said :

Don’t you think a protest which didn’t affect kids schooling may be looked on with more good will by the people who they are trying to influence?

They’re not trying to win over the public, they’re trying to get more pay. If the public is inconvenienced, they complain ot the people who pay the teachers, ie the government. That’s the point.

I think with the reputation that teachers have, and unions have, then geting the public onside would be more productive than pissing them off.

Judging by the photo’s, we don’t have a lot of Teachers in the ACT Public school system, or, where were the rest of the teachers that are either not at the strike or not at school, but which have inconvenienced parents again?

Ben_Dover said :

Jim Jones said :

[
You don’t think that a strike that doesn’t effect the community in any way might be a bit … pointless?

Don’t you think a protest which didn’t affect kids schooling may be looked on with more good will by the people who they are trying to influence?

They’re not trying to win over the public, they’re trying to get more pay. If the public is inconvenienced, they complain ot the people who pay the teachers, ie the government. That’s the point.

“A strain of luddism was in the air, referring (IIRC) to computers as “infernal machines”. (It’s only been an education trend for 30+years, surely coming to grips with computers should have been part of their own professional development?)”

Considering virtually all the lecturers in my uni’s Information Technology department are loathe to even check their emails, I’d say there’s not much hope for computing proficiency amongst teaching staff until “gen Y” are old enough for the jobs…

peterepete said :

Surprised to see Johnboy’s surname next to his image on the photos

Having a surname makes hiding his reptoid identity that much easier, naturally.

Ben_Dover said :

BenDover’s very good and useful explanation of effect vs affect snipped for brevity

Well said. Affect/Effect seems to be going the way of its/it’s. People not only misuse them, but they usually always use them in exactly the wrong way.

My daughter couldn’t wait to get to school this morning to hang with her friends in the hall, chat and eat chocolate. The year 7’s had it all planned, they’re beginning to love teacher strikes.

PatMan said :

[Hey BD – you available to do some private tutoring for my kids? Better still, would you like a teaching job. Appears to be a few around who are disatisfied and they should just quit! Bring back some good old fashioned teachers like yourself!

I quit teaching after two attempts to survive it (1986-1991 & 1994-97) Every good teacher with whom I trained, and most I worked with, have now quit. The job isn’t worth the candle these days.

johnboy said :

My surname’s never been a secret.

But very few people know John’s middle name is Susan.

My thoughts on the strike and the union’s wage claims:

1. As a former full-time teacher who left the profession to become a part-time worker in another field, and as someone who knows scores of teachers who have also left the profession – teacher workload is one of the most significant complaints of teachers. Over the past few years it has increased substantially, as the increased focus on accountability has increased teacher paperwork and outside of classroom duties. The union should be focussing on the issue of out of classroom work, not just contact hours or wages. Similarly, increased workloads should be put forward as a reason for increased salaries. John Howard always argued that wage increased should be met by increases in productivity. Over the past 5 or so years teacher workloads have increased so it is not unreasonable that their wages increase to reflect this.

2. Teacher wages aren’t terrible. They are pretty good, but not great. The education department is in competition with the Federal public service for quality employees. The public service pays better than teaching and offers better conditions and more clearly defined working hours. An APS 6 earns about the same as a teacher at the top of the pay scale. Similarly, their push for parity with NSW makes complete sense. The ACT does compete with regional NSW for teachers. I know of a number of good teachers who have left the system to teach in Queabeyan, Yass or to work in the public service. In this regard the union’s wage claim isn’t at all preposterous. Indeed, their demand that the 2nd and 3rd year of the EBA include pay rises in line with inflation is more than reasonable.

3. The current wage structure does nothing to reward good teachers. The union stands firmly against performance based pay, but there are a substantial number of teachers out there who would be more than happy to see this introduced. Likewise, the union’s stance against NAPLAN is not supported by all teachers. In many ways the union is a very conservative organisation, and it shouldn’t be confused with individual teachers, who all hold their own ideas and opinions.

4. The issue of putting forward competitive pay to encourage top tier employees to the teaching profession makes complete sense. In countries such as Finland teachers are paid far better than they are here, but the standard required for entry into the profession is also much higher. For example, you need to hold at least a Masters Degree. When I graduated from high school I scored in about the top 5% of my state and was strongly discouraged from studying education at university, as people believed I would be wasting my high school grades on an education degree. Increased salaries are one way of increasing the standing of teaching as a profession and would help ensure the best people consider teaching as an option.

5. Strikes such as today serve to put the public offside and, IMHO, do little to advance the teachers’ cause. Arguing against the implementation of things like IT in schools is ludicrous; however, arguing that the roll-out of new IT systems and the subsequent push for teachers to have online classrooms running in conjunction with real-world classrooms has seen an increase in workload that should be reflected in an increase in pay, does make sense.

johnboy said :

My surname’s never been a secret.

Thats good. Didn’t think you’d make such a newbie mistake but just in case.
What I want to know is whether they started off with a roll-call?

My surname’s never been a secret.

Ben_Dover said :

Jim Jones said :

You don’t think that a strike that doesn’t effect the community in any way might be a bit … pointless?

There are five distinct words here. When “affect” is accented on the final syllable (a-FECT), it is usually a verb meaning “have an influence on”: “The million-dollar donation from the industrialist did not affect my vote against the Clean Air Act.”

Occasionally a pretentious person is said to affect an artificial air of sophistication. Speaking with a borrowed French accent or ostentatiously wearing a large diamond ear stud might be an affectation. In this sort of context, “affect” means “to make a display of or deliberately cultivate.”

Another unusual meaning is indicated when the word is accented on the first syllable (AFF-ect), meaning “emotion.” In this case the word is used mostly by psychiatrists and social scientists—people who normally know how to spell it.

The real problem arises when people confuse the first spelling with the second: “effect.” This too can be two different words. The more common one is a noun: “When I left the stove on, the effect was that the house filled with smoke.” When you affect a situation, you have an effect on it.

Less common is a verb meaning “to create”: “I’m trying to effect a change in the way we purchase widgets.” No wonder people are confused. Note especially that the proper expression is not “take affect” but “take effect”—become effective. Hey, nobody ever said English was logical: just memorize it and get on with your life.

The stuff in your purse? Your personal effects.

The stuff in movies? Sound effects and special effects.

“Affective” is a technical term having to do with emotions; the vast majority of the time the spelling you want is “effective.”

Hey BD – you available to do some private tutoring for my kids? Better still, would you like a teaching job. Appears to be a few around who are disatisfied and they should just quit! Bring back some good old fashioned teachers like yourself!

Surprised to see Johnboy’s surname next to his image on the photos

Jim Jones said :

You don’t think that a strike that doesn’t effect the community in any way might be a bit … pointless?

There are five distinct words here. When “affect” is accented on the final syllable (a-FECT), it is usually a verb meaning “have an influence on”: “The million-dollar donation from the industrialist did not affect my vote against the Clean Air Act.”

Occasionally a pretentious person is said to affect an artificial air of sophistication. Speaking with a borrowed French accent or ostentatiously wearing a large diamond ear stud might be an affectation. In this sort of context, “affect” means “to make a display of or deliberately cultivate.”

Another unusual meaning is indicated when the word is accented on the first syllable (AFF-ect), meaning “emotion.” In this case the word is used mostly by psychiatrists and social scientists—people who normally know how to spell it.

The real problem arises when people confuse the first spelling with the second: “effect.” This too can be two different words. The more common one is a noun: “When I left the stove on, the effect was that the house filled with smoke.” When you affect a situation, you have an effect on it.

Less common is a verb meaning “to create”: “I’m trying to effect a change in the way we purchase widgets.” No wonder people are confused. Note especially that the proper expression is not “take affect” but “take effect”—become effective. Hey, nobody ever said English was logical: just memorize it and get on with your life.

The stuff in your purse? Your personal effects.

The stuff in movies? Sound effects and special effects.

“Affective” is a technical term having to do with emotions; the vast majority of the time the spelling you want is “effective.”

JazzyJess said :

Having been a teacher in a former life I sympathise on the issue of lousy pay but could they not have had the meeting at say 3:30 pm? They’re hurting the kids by not showing up to work and doing their jobs.

Of course they couldn’t. The idea is to inconvenience people in order to make their voice heard.

Usually when industrial action inconveniences me, though, I tend to get more annoying with the strikers and I’m less likely to side with them.

Jim Jones said :

[
You don’t think that a strike that doesn’t effect the community in any way might be a bit … pointless?

Don’t you think a protest which didn’t affect kids schooling may be looked on with more good will by the people who they are trying to influence?

s-s-a said :

My child insisted on going to school, having been convinced by reports from kids who attended the morning of the previous strike and got to do fun things. Plus there was going to be a relief teacher!! ZOMG how exciting!

I wonder if “fun things” included taunting the Scabs?

JazzyJess said :

Having been a teacher in a former life I sympathise on the issue of lousy pay but could they not have had the meeting at say 3:30 pm? They’re hurting the kids by not showing up to work and doing their jobs.

You don’t think that a strike that doesn’t effect the community in any way might be a bit … pointless?

Pedantry: that’d be professional development, with one ‘f’. Write it out 100 times. When was the last time a teacher said that? (And that’s probably a good thing.)

Nothing like a good consensual hallucination to start your day.

Having been a teacher in a former life I sympathise on the issue of lousy pay but could they not have had the meeting at say 3:30 pm? They’re hurting the kids by not showing up to work and doing their jobs.

They did, however, appear to be having a wonderful spring morning. No doubt their students felt the same way

My child insisted on going to school, having been convinced by reports from kids who attended the morning of the previous strike and got to do fun things. Plus there was going to be a relief teacher!! ZOMG how exciting!