Googong pipeline protest

ceam said :

MOST IMPORTANT FACTOR REMAINS THIS 150 MILLION DOLLAR PROJECT WILL RUN THROUGH THE NAMADGI NATIONAL PARK WHICH CONTRAVENES THE POLICY OF THE ACT NATIONAL PARKS ASSOC
“A key element of Namadgi National Park is its unique natural landforms and panoramic scenery. NPA ACT strongly supports the protection? of these essential environmental elements from any incursions or disturbances, such as communication towers, power lines, pipelines or road works.”

This is actually an ACT national park not NSW.

Also I would like to say thanks to the person who sent an apology for an email they sent and I’d like to apologize to all those out there who feel I hate Canberra people. I do not, I consider myself a Canberra person having gone to school there. I was having a gut level reaction to what was happening but it is about the river and park- not about williamsdale road and I do think people in cities everywhere waste too much water. My facetious comment in the video about showers was my way of expressing my anger at water waste. Really this is a CANBERRA concern because it is in a Canberra national park so calling me a nimby is incorrect as it is more in YOUR backyard- being an historical large area held in trust by the capital. I really hope some of you can see beyond your personal dislike of what type of person you perceive me to be and just look at the real issue at hand.

I’m still trying to figure out the real issue but I’ve gained more understanding about the pipeline from some of the other posts than from the video rant. Honestly, if someone is passionate about protecting the environment then they’ve half won me over already but you’ve done a great job of losing that advantage.

That mully is in danger, what with the tax payers rallying against houso’s in the puss thread and the endless whining of road users in the speed limit thread. I think the use of cap locks is just a cynical ploy by you to get the numbers up.

Dunno what you are complaining about – you’re getting free coffee

Christmas coffee service
ACTEW will be offering the free coffee service again for the month of December to thank the residents of Burra and Williamsdale for their patience during the construction of the Murrumbidgee to Googong Water Transfer. Free coffee, biscuits and newspapers will be available from the van parked near Burra Hall from 8:30am-10:30am on the following weekends:

Saturday and Sunday 3/4 December
Saturday and Sunday 10/11 December
Saturday and Sunday 17/18 December

Also an update on the works is here http://www.actew.com.au/Our%20Projects/Murrumbidgee%20to%20Googong%20Water%20Transfer/Construction%20Update.aspx

Looks like the horse has well and truly bolted.

ceam said :

MOST IMPORTANT FACTOR REMAINS THIS 150 MILLION DOLLAR PROJECT WILL RUN THROUGH THE NAMADGI NATIONAL PARK WHICH CONTRAVENES THE POLICY OF THE ACT NATIONAL PARKS ASSOC

Shouting won’t make us listen to your selfish and opportunistic views. Stop digging an even bigger hole for yourself.

I’m a Canberran and am all for whatever. National park, meh we have enough kangaroos and boringness as is.

MOST IMPORTANT FACTOR REMAINS THIS 150 MILLION DOLLAR PROJECT WILL RUN THROUGH THE NAMADGI NATIONAL PARK WHICH CONTRAVENES THE POLICY OF THE ACT NATIONAL PARKS ASSOC
“A key element of Namadgi National Park is its unique natural landforms and panoramic scenery. NPA ACT strongly supports the protection? of these essential environmental elements from any incursions or disturbances, such as communication towers, power lines, pipelines or road works.”

This is actually an ACT national park not NSW.

Also I would like to say thanks to the person who sent an apology for an email they sent and I’d like to apologize to all those out there who feel I hate Canberra people. I do not, I consider myself a Canberra person having gone to school there. I was having a gut level reaction to what was happening but it is about the river and park- not about williamsdale road and I do think people in cities everywhere waste too much water. My facetious comment in the video about showers was my way of expressing my anger at water waste. Really this is a CANBERRA concern because it is in a Canberra national park so calling me a nimby is incorrect as it is more in YOUR backyard- being an historical large area held in trust by the capital. I really hope some of you can see beyond your personal dislike of what type of person you perceive me to be and just look at the real issue at hand.

I’m really interested by perpetuation of the city/country thing evident here and the lionisation of rural dwellers as somehow being ‘real Australians’ (certain 666 presenters drive me wild with this).

I’ve lived in both country and city and as far as I can tell people as just as; smart, stupid, lazy, creative, greedy, wonderful. I can understand some of the traffic coming from country folk who feel they dont get a fair share but there seems to be a reverse current here as well, is that limited to nimby lifestylers seen here?

bump – this is totally mully worthy.

Late comer to this thread due to my 4, 6 hour daily showers but wow, just wow….

johnboy said :

Charlotte believes one of you lot sent her a nasty email.

Apparently she thinks the police are going to be interested in this.

Is that in the same way she thinks the Government are going to be interested in her “protest”.

creative_canberran said :

fgzk said :

Please stop ceam. Its a pointless exercise.

CC I think I see a pattern with you. You have quiet a passion for attacking women on RA.

au contraire

http://the-riotact.com/local-cafe-owner-can’t-handle-the-heat/59999

Women and cyclist-haters?? 😉

Mysteryman said :

ceam said :

The egg business discontinued a year ago for your information. But the abusive email I received this afternoon to my email has been informally reported and I suggest the perpetrator send an apology before I report them formally which would lead to charges.

As for accusations of “hating” Canberrans- I went to school there and it is has been my home on and off for many years- the difference is I don’t waste water like many do in nearly every major city.

But as soon as I start receiving “hate mail” for exercising my democratic right I know I am putting my family and myself at risk so because the message and violations stemmed from this forum I can no longer debate in here.

Your “democratic right” is what, exactly? Which one were you exercising?

I presume a reference to the “implied freedom of political communication” found by the HC in Australia.
That’s the closest we’ve come in this country to freedom of speech and democratic discourse along the lines of the American constitution which guarantees free speech more broadly.

Some times I find myself actually chortling while I read these threads… How exciting, everything from carp to Nazi’s.

Humans have been “screwing up” the environment literally from the moment our single celled ancestors started producing copious amounts oxygen over 4 billion years ago…. Can you imagine how the greens would have reacted to that climate change?

I must say I do also despair sometimes at the venom and vitriol that permeate these sort of interweb arguments… It does not portray us in a good light. It makes us all look more akin to neanderthals.

Emotion charged, exaggerated outbursts just lead to even more of the same thing… No one looks good and the argument is lost in the noise… Especially on RA with so many trolls just waiting for the next naive person to bait..

I do have a strong opinion on the pipeline mainly because I worked on the Snowy’s for 19 years. I am so over “environmentalists” arguing over pipelines and rivers..

“Life wasn’t meant to be easy”. Time to just let it slide. You need to pick the fights you can win… This one is already over. Time to move on.

p1 said :

…BOLD…

Sorry, didn’t mean to shout.

broudie17 said :

Correct: Holocaust originally meant burnt offering in Hebrew. After WW2 however, it has taken on a different meaning, which I would argue that 99% of people people think of when they hear the word.

So although I think you’re indulging in semantics p1, please go ahead and justify how ceam’s use of the holocaust as a simile is so different and is not worthy of contempt. Does the waterpipe construction work look like a concentration camp? Do the pipes viscerally remind one of crematoria? Are millions of humans being killed in its wake? If not, then it is offensive hyperbole, which offends many and trivialises a very serious issue.

Well, actually I would have instantly thought nazis if she said “THE holocaust”, but since she said “A holocaust” it made me think of the total decimation, destruction and corruption of the subject in question, which I would think was exactly what she was trying to portray. If in fact it was her intention to make you all picture jackbooted browncoats herding the poor defenceless eco system into the gas chambers, then she is worse then Hitler.

But to my mind, she used a common word, you made it into a thing.

p1 said :

Carp is something I hadn’t thought of. Is Googong really carp free? If so that is great, and I hope they keep it that way.

I have no studies to go off, just personal experience. I have never caught one there & never seen any sign such as degradation of the banks, dead fish & such. There may be a small population if there is but its definately nowhere near the populations they are in the Murrumbidgee & other local lakes.

Heaps of redfin though which I will be working on reducing that population once I get my leccy motor for Xmas……..

p1 said :

KB1971 said :

The biggest environmental contamination scare I can see are two things, farming chemicals that come from upstream & the introduction of European Carp to Googong but I hope they have taken that into consideration.

Currently the biggest source of contamination in the Burra Creek catchment (and thus Googong Dam) in from septic tanks and inputs to gardens and lawns on all the hobby farms in the area, and run off from dirt roads (sediment load). I doubt the water they are pumping across will be worse.

Carp is something I hadn’t thought of. Is Googong really carp free? If so that is great, and I hope they keep it that way.

Apparently there will be a filtering system.
But I’m sure that Charlotte will think all the environmental protection measures won’t work and are just there to help those evil corporations make more money anyway.
http://www.actew.com.au/Our%20Projects/Murrumbidgee%20to%20Googong%20Water%20Transfer/Protecting%20the%20environment.aspx

p1 said :

broudie17 said :

@ceam:

“…THEn not one single person can enjoy that part of river that is actually a well known spot for Canberra people and on top of that the river system will suffer. The entire road going down to the river now looks like a holocaust hit it where once in was scenic beauty for ALL to enjoy.”

As a longtime reader, your comment above incensed me so much that I just had to register to respond. Comparing something so minor as a water pipeline to the holocaust (i.e. the calculated genocide of over 6 million people) is unbelievably offensive, crass and insulting. Trivialising one of the worst crimes in human history shows an incredible lack of awareness, and of perspective, which I hope you realise once you re-read your post.

To be fair to ceam, she said “now looks like a holocaust hit it“. While the historical event most associated with that word occurred during world war two, the word actually has a meaning of its own.

Correct: Holocaust originally meant burnt offering in Hebrew. After WW2 however, it has taken on a different meaning, which I would argue that 99% of people people think of when they hear the word.

So although I think you’re indulging in semantics p1, please go ahead and justify how ceam’s use of the holocaust as a simile is so different and is not worthy of contempt. Does the waterpipe construction work look like a concentration camp? Do the pipes viscerally remind one of crematoria? Are millions of humans being killed in its wake? If not, then it is offensive hyperbole, which offends many and trivialises a very serious issue.

Lets not forget the Kangaroos. The ACT maintained that they were a major threat to the catchments water quality and promptly shot 800. Rumor persists that it was actual well connected local residents tired of fixing fences that lobbied for the reduction.

KB1971 said :

The biggest environmental contamination scare I can see are two things, farming chemicals that come from upstream & the introduction of European Carp to Googong but I hope they have taken that into consideration.

Currently the biggest source of contamination in the Burra Creek catchment (and thus Googong Dam) in from septic tanks and inputs to gardens and lawns on all the hobby farms in the area, and run off from dirt roads (sediment load). I doubt the water they are pumping across will be worse.

Carp is something I hadn’t thought of. Is Googong really carp free? If so that is great, and I hope they keep it that way.

The old “post it trap” will just add more public ridicule that no doubt will be immortalised in a mully. Leave it be. A lot of proudaustralian here.

ceam said :

chewy14 said :

Every drop of water in Googong dam has to be pumped through a pipeline for use in Canberra.

By ceams logic, it doesn’t work and must be a failure right?

This is a NATIONAL PARK and as it says in the NATIONAL PARKS ASSOCIATION OF THE ACT
http://www.npaact.org.au/category.php?id=6 under Nature and Purpose:

” A key element of Namadgi National Park is its unique natural landforms and panoramic scenery. NPA ACT strongly supports the protection of these essential environmental elements from any incursions or disturbances, such as communication towers, power lines, pipelines or road works.”

PLEASE READ THE ABOVE BEFORE MAKING ANY FURTHER COMMENTS omg

Quick geography lesson, Namadgi NP does not include Angle Crossing:

http://www.tams.act.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0005/13685/Namadgi_BriefGuide_Web2011.pdf

It is a “Canberra Nature Park” in the Murrumbidgee Corridor for what it is worth. The Googong foreshores are set aside for keeping the water catchment and lake foreshores as clean as possible from contamination and is not a national park.

One of the reasons for you copping so much flack are for your assumptions that everybody in Canberra is a water thief & the vastly incorrect statements like the one above.

I understand some of your concerns but really, once the works are done you will be able to go swimming again at Angle Crossing & there will be a mosquito laden set of mud pools near Burra that will benifit from some constant water flow.

The biggest environmental contamination scare I can see are two things, farming chemicals that come from upstream & the introduction of European Carp to Googong but I hope they have taken that into consideration.

As for the hate mail, that is crap & there is definately no reason for that.

johnboy said :

Charlotte believes one of you lot sent her a nasty email.

Apparently she thinks the police are going to be interested in this.

give the girl a box of tissues to go with her Mully.

Hey Meany, post the email …….. I have no idea from whom or whats written but fair chance it could win flame of the week.!!!

broudie17 said :

@ceam:

“…THEn not one single person can enjoy that part of river that is actually a well known spot for Canberra people and on top of that the river system will suffer. The entire road going down to the river now looks like a holocaust hit it where once in was scenic beauty for ALL to enjoy.”

As a longtime reader, your comment above incensed me so much that I just had to register to respond. Comparing something so minor as a water pipeline to the holocaust (i.e. the calculated genocide of over 6 million people) is unbelievably offensive, crass and insulting. Trivialising one of the worst crimes in human history shows an incredible lack of awareness, and of perspective, which I hope you realise once you re-read your post.

To be fair to ceam, she said “now looks like a holocaust hit it“. While the historical event most associated with that word occurred during world war two, the word actually has a meaning of its own.

Charlotte believes one of you lot sent her a nasty email.

Apparently she thinks the police are going to be interested in this.

Hairy arm pits…. pew pew.

Give this girl a mully

ceam said :

The egg business discontinued a year ago for your information. But the abusive email I received this afternoon to my email has been informally reported and I suggest the perpetrator send an apology before I report them formally which would lead to charges.

As for accusations of “hating” Canberrans- I went to school there and it is has been my home on and off for many years- the difference is I don’t waste water like many do in nearly every major city.

But as soon as I start receiving “hate mail” for exercising my democratic right I know I am putting my family and myself at risk so because the message and violations stemmed from this forum I can no longer debate in here.

Your “democratic right” is what, exactly? Which one were you exercising?

broudie17 said :

@ceam:

“…THEn not one single person can enjoy that part of river that is actually a well known spot for Canberra people and on top of that the river system will suffer. The entire road going down to the river now looks like a holocaust hit it where once in was scenic beauty for ALL to enjoy.”

As a longtime reader, your comment above incensed me so much that I just had to register to respond. Comparing something so minor as a water pipeline to the holocaust (i.e. the calculated genocide of over 6 million people) is unbelievably offensive, crass and insulting. Trivialising one of the worst crimes in human history shows an incredible lack of awareness, and of perspective, which I hope you realise once you re-read your post.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

@ceam:

“…THEn not one single person can enjoy that part of river that is actually a well known spot for Canberra people and on top of that the river system will suffer. The entire road going down to the river now looks like a holocaust hit it where once in was scenic beauty for ALL to enjoy.”

As a longtime reader, your comment above incensed me so much that I just had to register to respond. Comparing something so minor as a water pipeline to the holocaust (i.e. the calculated genocide of over 6 million people) is unbelievably offensive, crass and insulting. Trivialising one of the worst crimes in human history shows an incredible lack of awareness, and of perspective, which I hope you realise once you re-read your post.

I’m a little disappointed that the OP has chosen to back out of the debate, but I’ll share my thoughts anyway. My apologies in advance if this becomes another tl;dr comment.

Firstly, the author of the YouTube video about the Victorian North-South pipeline project is (AFIAK) an astroturfer – a hired gun who produces “grass roots” videos on behalf of interest groups. Take what is claimed in his productions with a grain of salt.

Secondly, the text being cited from “Water for the Future” is discussing the use of pipelines to transport water from one catchment valley to another, not water shared/distributed within a catchment. The Murrumbidgee-Googong pipeline is shifting water that will (if unused) be returned to the same river system, and the amount of water transfer being proposed is insignificant compared to large scale irrigation networks elsewhere in the Murray-Darling system, or the Snowy Hydro scheme.

Lastly, if the pipeline is simply an unpalatable solution, what is the better alternative? ACTEW conducted a study into future water options in the early/mid 2000’s and came up with a whole bunch of options. Basically it boiled down to a number of minor works vs building Tennent Dam. I might be wrong, but a pipeline seems far less damaging to the environment than submerging the entire Naas Valley.

It is also worth mentioning that works focused on maximising Googong Dam’s storage capacity aren’t just about drought-proofing Canberra. The 2003 fires showed that our reliance on the Cotter catchment has major implications in an emergency, and that we need to diversify our water harvesting practices.

Don’t get me wrong, there are genuine issues with the Googong pipeline (cold shock, introduction of alien species, erosion, etc), but there are risks and trade-offs with everything we build to provide for human needs.

fgzk said :

Please stop ceam. Its a pointless exercise.

CC I think I see a pattern with you. You have quiet a passion for attacking women on RA.

au contraire

http://the-riotact.com/local-cafe-owner-can’t-handle-the-heat/59999

creative_canberran said :

As a matter of interest, which Canberra cafes by the way use your eggs?

Silo Bakery???????

Oh and a song for the moment during these talks of pipes and times of excess water when Climate guru Flannery said it would never flood again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=eD-58aVlPYk

One of the nice aspects of this pipe line is the ability of the ACT government to buy extra water licences when required during time of drought. The water purchased can then be dumped out of Tantangra high in the snowy mountains providing higher river flows down river passed the Namagie national park then sucked up into the pipe into Burra creek where it will assist the creek during drought. Once QBN/ACT flush it, shower in it, wash with it, it then gets treated and enters the Murrumbidgee again and continues onto the water original customers being the Murrumbidgee/Murray river irrigators.

I’ve evidently come across this thread rather late in the day, but I thought I should add my $0.02 worth of derision towards Ms Meany.

Insulting the people you are trying to persuade is generally considered to be poor form in debating land, so the sarcastic “yucky Canberra people” vibe of the video, complete with the crack about 3-4 showers per day left me feeling hostile at best. I’ve lived here on and off for over 30 years, and like most Canberrans I’ve always been a responsible user of water.

This, when combined with a lack of facts and the whiny self-pitying tone of the video makes me feel inclined to put this into the category of bogus nonsense.

Chewy…… well apart from the below link. It has some interesting parallels.

ceam said :

el said :

Would that be the ‘delicate ecosystem’ of large hobby farms and four wheel drives?

I spent from age 17 on an 800 acre working farm so you know nothing- never had a 4 wheel drive in my life.
So no that would be someone who has the same opinion as this guy while watching the environment go to hell:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2zECTIKsFs

ceam said :

chewy14 said :

Every drop of water in Googong dam has to be pumped through a pipeline for use in Canberra.

By ceams logic, it doesn’t work and must be a failure right?

This is a NATIONAL PARK and as it says in the NATIONAL PARKS ASSOCIATION OF THE ACT
http://www.npaact.org.au/category.php?id=6 under Nature and Purpose:

” A key element of Namadgi National Park is its unique natural landforms and panoramic scenery. NPA ACT strongly supports the protection of these essential environmental elements from any incursions or disturbances, such as communication towers, power lines, pipelines or road works.”

PLEASE READ THE ABOVE BEFORE MAKING ANY FURTHER COMMENTS omg

No, you said that water tranfers failed economically and socially everywhere they’d been tried.
Do you want to now admit that you’re wrong?
As for your environmental argument, you’ve yet to provide anything that shows that the water transfer will have a significant negative impact that outweighs the benefit.
OMG.

Please stop ceam. Its a pointless exercise.

CC I think I see a pattern with you. You have quiet a passion for attacking women on RA.

The egg business discontinued a year ago for your information. But the abusive email I received this afternoon to my email has been informally reported and I suggest the perpetrator send an apology before I report them formally which would lead to charges.

As for accusations of “hating” Canberrans- I went to school there and it is has been my home on and off for many years- the difference is I don’t waste water like many do in nearly every major city.

But as soon as I start receiving “hate mail” for exercising my democratic right I know I am putting my family and myself at risk so because the message and violations stemmed from this forum I can no longer debate in here.

This was only ever going to end in tears. Seeing as people are so keen to identify others, maybe you could put your own name up. Just so we know who is who. Eliminate any conflict of interest. Stand up for what you believe in and all that.

ceam said :

tl;dr, another typical NIMBY rant.

Well, I’m convinced. I’m off to have my last 3 showers of the day – once I’ve finished watering the driveway.

ceam said :

You see unless you’ve really lived on the land and seen how desperate it can be you wouldn’t know that leaving water taps on while brushing your teeth and the other myriad of ways people waste water regardless of population growth is not a good idea and people should have water tanks and treat water like the precious resource it is. Not plunder our way through natural parks and reserves in some panic attack for more votes or jobs which will just slap us all back HARD in the face.

Stop trying to hide your true intent behind environmentalism. Your clear intent is a backwards us vs them mentality. Red necks vs yuppies, city vs country. You have it tougher on the land so your immediate logic is to attack those who have it better. Typical tall poppy syndrome.

As a matter of interest, which Canberra cafes by the way use your eggs?

ceam said :

And I am not hiding behind fake names to spurt hate comments just because someone is against a public work.

Curiously the Ingebra Eggs website does not feature your name anywhere.

Postalgeek said :

ceam said :

You see unless you’ve really lived on the land and seen how desperate it can be you wouldn’t know that leaving water taps on while brushing your teeth and the other myriad of ways people waste water regardless of population growth is not a good idea and people should have water tanks and treat water like the precious resource it is.

Where does one buy membership to this Real Australians™ Club? And do they have a dress code? Sounds delighfully exclusive.

It’s worth noting that the first point in the “what else we can do?” section of the document she refers to is “Improving rural water use efficiency”. Turns out the Real Australians have been to blame all along!

ceam said :

” A pipeline from Burra to Canberra is hardly on the scale of the other proposals discussed, so what makes you so certain that the conclusion of the document applies more than the above quote?”

The length of the pipeline has no bearing on the damage down at the source ie., the pumping station at the river and the output pumped through creek beds at the reserve. It wouldn’t matter if the pipe were 600kms or the current 20km – the damage remains the same either end.

I’d contend that it doesn’t, as the volume of water being moved and the size/impact of the equipment will be substantially different. That’s beside the point, though, because what I’m illustrating is that your contention that no water pipeline will ever work is unsupported by the document you cite. If you want to complain about the impact on the nature reserve at the end of the road then go ahead, but all your talk about water management is just a post hoc justification for the fact that you don’t like someone digging up your town.

chewy14 said :

Every drop of water in Googong dam has to be pumped through a pipeline for use in Canberra.

By ceams logic, it doesn’t work and must be a failure right?

This is a NATIONAL PARK and as it says in the NATIONAL PARKS ASSOCIATION OF THE ACT
http://www.npaact.org.au/category.php?id=6 under Nature and Purpose:

” A key element of Namadgi National Park is its unique natural landforms and panoramic scenery. NPA ACT strongly supports the protection of these essential environmental elements from any incursions or disturbances, such as communication towers, power lines, pipelines or road works.”

PLEASE READ THE ABOVE BEFORE MAKING ANY FURTHER COMMENTS omg

Indeed the way she talks, it sounds more like her issue is a hatred of city dwellers, and perhaps a perception that rural residents aren’t looked after rather than any real problem with the pipe. She spends so much of the time just going on and on about the water being for Canberra. Swimming and the eco system sound like attempts to hide her true intent.

The intent being to say “Ingebra Eggs hates Canberra”.

ceam said :

I allow all comments that do not make personal attacks or violate privacy. I am a mother and this is our home and when people make comments which threaten our security that is illegal and rightfully so.

Illegal… great, another backyard legal expert who’s got it wrong.

Nice job Charlotte. Hopefully the customers of Canberra will hear this vitriol and vote with their wallets.

And a public service announcement for Canberra egg consumers, this from the Ingebra website:

“We do not refrigerate or clean the eggs to avoid possible contamination and sweating.”

US authorities warn that EITHER not cleaning or not refrigerating eggs at the production end greatly increases the hazard to consumers an they are introducing strict guidelines to require producers to do both. The fact that you do neither is extremely poor and puts your customers at far greater risk.

” A pipeline from Burra to Canberra is hardly on the scale of the other proposals discussed, so what makes you so certain that the conclusion of the document applies more than the above quote?”

The length of the pipeline has no bearing on the damage down at the source ie., the pumping station at the river and the output pumped through creek beds at the reserve. It wouldn’t matter if the pipe were 600kms or the current 20km – the damage remains the same either end.

Every drop of water in Googong dam has to be pumped through a pipeline for use in Canberra.

By ceams logic, it doesn’t work and must be a failure right?

ceam said :

You see unless you’ve really lived on the land and seen how desperate it can be you wouldn’t know that leaving water taps on while brushing your teeth and the other myriad of ways people waste water regardless of population growth is not a good idea and people should have water tanks and treat water like the precious resource it is.

Where does one buy membership to this Real Australians™ Club? And do they have a dress code? Sounds delighfully exclusive.

Hey CHARLOTTE – really long POSTS with random words in capitals are NOT going to help you WIN any debates. Instead of getting all WORKED UP, why don’t you simply ADDRESS the concerns people have about the LACK OF SUBSTANCE to your arguments?

Hint: you could start off by acknowledging that you don’t actually know a single person living in Canberra who has 3 or more showers a day, and that your attempt to portray all Canberra residents as being water-wasting eco-hating BADDIES was misguided and just plain WRONG!

ceam said :

If you read that document from page to page it talks about every pipeline around Australia except this current one because it is not in existence yet. It is debating OTHER and BETTER methods to combat water shortages.. but what is the point in explaining? You are acting like pigheaded pollies not people who really want to learn something. You’ve all completely ignored the points brought up in the document I gave link to and the young man’s video recently in protest of brumby’s pipeline. You have made up your minds and there is no amount of education that will change that because you don’t actually read or listen.

I’m sorry, but the document just isn’t what you say/think it is. It is almost entirely about various long pipelines that have been proposed to move large amounts of water from the north of the country to the south. In discussion of currently existing pipelines, it says: “In particular circumstances and places, pipelines can be a useful way to improve the availability and reliability of our water supply.” A pipeline from Burra to Canberra is hardly on the scale of the other proposals discussed, so what makes you so certain that the conclusion of the document applies more than the above quote?

“So your counter-proposal is to wait a while until somebody smarter comes along to solve the problem for us, and hope we don’t have any water shortages in the interim?”

If you read that document from page to page it talks about every pipeline around Australia except this current one because it is not in existence yet. It is debating OTHER and BETTER methods to combat water shortages.. but what is the point in explaining? You are acting like pigheaded pollies not people who really want to learn something. You’ve all completely ignored the points brought up in the document I gave link to and the young man’s video recently in protest of brumby’s pipeline. You have made up your minds and there is no amount of education that will change that because you don’t actually read or listen.

It is not JUST ME- many many canberra people and interstate visitors go to the river and the reserve. I took my sons down to the river yesterday at angle cross and it is in a critical state of excavation and will never be anything else but a pumping station from now on. It will pum deep from the river bed which is precisely where the food source is for living organisms that keep the river clean along the food chain. So besides the place being inhabitable now to anything but workers during some drought in the future when much better methods could be used- actually a combination of methods(AGAIN GO AND READ AND LEARN FOR YOURSELVES- I WILL NOT SPOON FEED IT TO YOU_ IT HAS BEEN PLACED IN A CONVENIENT BOWL BEFORE YOU) THEn not one single person can enjoy that part of river that is actually a well known spot for Canberra people and on top of that the river system will suffer. The entire road going down to the river now looks like a holocaust hit it where once in was scenic beauty for ALL to enjoy.

Down the other end the water will be pumped out of the pipes into the creeks of the RESERVE and this water will not improve creeks but wash away the inhabitants just as a natural disaster does but not at a constant level until there is no hope for nature fighting back and you end up with man made eroded gullies. Again not to mention the UGLINESS it introduces to the Reserve. Not like putting an army station in a national reserve to protect our nation – but a stupid pipeline that will never be needed because by the time another severe drought strikes scientists and politicians will come to their senses and use better methods like tanks and desalination and improvements to dams and actually getting people to STOP wasting so much water.

You see unless you’ve really lived on the land and seen how desperate it can be you wouldn’t know that leaving water taps on while brushing your teeth and the other myriad of ways people waste water regardless of population growth is not a good idea and people should have water tanks and treat water like the precious resource it is. Not plunder our way through natural parks and reserves in some panic attack for more votes or jobs which will just slap us all back HARD in the face.

So there you go- I am one voice on here but I’m very HAPPY to see young people like the young man in the video about Brumby’s pipeline who see through the bullshit and are not afraid to call it as it is. The rest of you can sleep well at night knowing you are part of the problem not solution and I would not be surprised if some of you have political aspirations because that is how thick headed you come across.

One final thing and I bet you all ignore this one…tell me why it is every single ACTEW video on youtube has comments disabled if EVERYONE so loves the idea? And why do all my friends here in Burra hate the idea and my friends further afield? And the environmental lawyer I spoke to today and people who work to preserve land care here that have now been silenced because they are being paid by ACTEW to try and minimize damage done? ..two words …MONEY and VOTES but I’m starting to realize now when humans do stupid selfish things it eventually comes back to them.

I’m glad I am not a sheep like the rest of you and can speak up for what is right. It is very easy to yell in a crowd when you are in the wrong.

I was getting quite upset at all the negative comments directed towards this lady. Call me old fashioned, I dislike people giving women a hard time.

Then I made the mistake of watching her youtube protest.

All the comments towards her are completely justified. What a twit. Any infrastructure, especially to do with water is good. This will benefit the environment.

No benefits to ‘her’ community? We are ALL Australians, we are the one community Australia wide. Anything that benefits one benefits the whole. What a nimby. No wonder she lives secluded in the bush.

I’d suggest waiting until the work has begun and the project has gone through all the approval and consultation phases is probably leaving it a bit late.

Oh, and how passive aggressive is an open letter and home video? Maybe if you write to the Minister directly you might get a reply.

ceam said :

FEEL is the operative word. This is a big fat white elephant and is not the solution to any future drought problems in Canberra whenever that be in 20 years or 100 years from now. By then we will have a more intelligent generation to solve sustainability issues who would have learnt from the mistakes of past hungry politicians seeking more votes. Mark my words- this pipeline will be egg in their faces and yours who support it.

So your counter-proposal is to wait a while until somebody smarter comes along to solve the problem for us, and hope we don’t have any water shortages in the interim?

I’m by no means a die-hard supporter of the project, I’m just not a fan of semi-informed contrarians. So you read a couple of reports which you think support your pre-conceived views, and you spoke to a couple of scientists who disagree with the project but are, I dunno, afraid to speak out? And this qualifies you to tell us with authority that the pipeline won’t work?

You do realise that the paper you linked to is talking about moving water from northern Australia to southern Australia, and thus has no applicability to the current debate, right? The closest proposed pipeline in that document is west of Coffs Harbour, for crying out loud.

Shower is an anagram for whores. Just saying.

ceam said :

By then we will have a more intelligent generation.

Please god, when does this start? I’m guessing not with your offspring, if after being challenged on your lack of logic as well as specific, definable issues you still come up with “FEEL is the operative word.”

What a rant!

There are thousands of people who came to Canberrra for work. Do they automatically change their behaviour on entering? I don’t think so. There is a melting pot of Australians living here.
Since I came here, all I’ve heard is pathetic whinging from people who live “across the border” Gee, some of them won’t even say they live in Quangers , they live in “Jerra” some other world city. Yep, they hate those bloody Canberrans. They hate us so much, they come and work here, they send their kids to private education here, damn it, they even buy their petrol here. but, it’s all our fault.

If Canberra woudl just piss off, those “across the border” could get on with living … in a small country town, where everyone knows each other and cares for each other. Pleaseee.

The water pipline projects are about trading water, selling water to other dams. It’s like a big web of pipes.

To listen to the argument put forward on the video … I heard …
“What are those noisy trucks doing?”
“This is my quiet place”.
“A local town for local people”.
“What? Those people in Canberra want water?”
“Well , stuff them”.
“Teh ecology … oh, the humanity” I’ve never affected the ecology”.

Less than 20 km’s of pipeline, the ecology temporarily disturbed to make way and then remediated. The Burra Creek becoming a drain. I’d rather have that than have no water.

It’s true, this debate does need rational discussion – and people misunderstand consultation. Sometimes, It doesn’t mean you get your result.

Erg0 said :

ceam said :

And like the young man speaking in his unpopular view video I’d agree with him by saying this pipeline monstrosity is politically motivated to create jobs and make Canberra feel their water problems are solved in future in the best possible way.

Wait, they’re creating jobs and solving problems? The MONSTERS!!!!

FEEL is the operative word. This is a big fat white elephant and is not the solution to any future drought problems in Canberra whenever that be in 20 years or 100 years from now. By then we will have a more intelligent generation to solve sustainability issues who would have learnt from the mistakes of past hungry politicians seeking more votes. Mark my words- this pipeline will be egg in their faces and yours who support it.

ahhh, ceam … have you even watched/listened to your own video? Give it a crack – it’ll become clear why you’re copping it here.

Mysteryman said :

I’m supposed to be enjoying 4 showers a day?! Why wasn’t I told sooner?

Excuse me… It’s 1pm and I need to get number 2 in for the day, or I’ll be behind schedule.

See, if you only have 3 today, you’ve got to have 5 tomorrow. Maybe best to just set aside one day a month for not leaving the bathroom at all.

poetix said :

The commentary on the video is actually quite worrying, revealing a total lack of understanding that we are all part of the same country, and that a little inconvenience in one area is justified in order to ensure safe water access for a large number of people. The lack of any notion of all our lives being linked is disturbing, and the wish for the pipes to be damaged and the tax money lost is amazingly infantile, like a naughty toddler breaking something he can’t have all for himself.

It reminds me of the attitude of the convoy organisers, wishing to blockade Canberra because of policy disagreements, even though their particular point of view was quite different. Petulance, anyone?

+lots. It’s also worth noting that Canberra is among Australia’s most undeservedly dumped-on cities, which makes it very difficult to win any sympathy with the “I don’t want to suffer for somebody else’s benefit” argument.

ceam said :

And like the young man speaking in his unpopular view video I’d agree with him by saying this pipeline monstrosity is politically motivated to create jobs and make Canberra feel their water problems are solved in future in the best possible way.

Wait, they’re creating jobs and solving problems? The MONSTERS!!!!

OK Ceam,
– There will be a pump station in the river. It’s mostly underground. How does this ruin an ecosystem?
– There will be a pipeline underground mostly following an already existing road. How does this ruin an ecosystem?
-The water will discharge into Burra creek. As pointed out by ClearWaters this will actually improve the health of the creek. The regular floods in this creek are higher than the amount of water that will be discharged so how does this ruin an ecosystem?
– Once construction is finished, the site will be cleaned up. How does this ruin an ecosystem?

Maybe people are resorting to calling you names because you started it with your assumptions about Canberrans and haven’t provided any supporting evidence for your claims.
How about you put up or shut up?

The commentary on the video is actually quite worrying, revealing a total lack of understanding that we are all part of the same country, and that a little inconvenience in one area is justified in order to ensure safe water access for a large number of people. The lack of any notion of all our lives being linked is disturbing, and the wish for the pipes to be damaged and the tax money lost is amazingly infantile, like a naughty toddler breaking something he can’t have all for himself.

It reminds me of the attitude of the convoy organisers, wishing to blockade Canberra because of policy disagreements, even though their particular point of view was quite different. Petulance, anyone?

Some of you actually present arguments worth considering, maybe one or two. The rest of you are like overgrown children resorting to name calling or trying to discredit me through anything other than the real subject at hand which is the validity of these pipelines. And like the young man speaking in his unpopular view video I’d agree with him by saying this pipeline monstrosity is politically motivated to create jobs and make Canberra feel their water problems are solved in future in the best possible way.

To ask me if I own a 4 wheel drive suggesting I’m like many Canberra public servants driving around unnecessarily in those vehicles I happen to have never had any reason to own and that I am just some hobby farmer- who cares what you personally think of me? This has absolutely nothing to do with the pipeline- not one little bit. It has ruined the river down the road and it will ruin the reserve down the other way and these are the only two things in my backyard I really care about! But guess what? so actually do Canberra people themselves who frequent both on a regular basis as well as interstate travellers- that’s why they are called NATIONAL PARKS.

But for you information my logic makes plenty of sense – unless you live on a property with inaccessible roads you don’t normally need 4 wheel drives- what we only ever need was a couple of trucks- one for materials and one for hay. Then we needed a tractor and an auger to blow feed into the silo. So please will you haters remain quiet and stop ganging up on one person in such a cowardly way. State your point of view about the subject in a civilized and respectful manner- is that possible?

Mysteryman said :

I’m supposed to be enjoying 4 showers a day?! Why wasn’t I told sooner?

Excuse me… It’s 1pm and I need to get number 2 in for the day, or I’ll be behind schedule.

That’s just before cedrick the dog has his!

I’m supposed to be enjoying 4 showers a day?! Why wasn’t I told sooner?

Excuse me… It’s 1pm and I need to get number 2 in for the day, or I’ll be behind schedule.

longshanks said :

Why don’t you try retreating slightly on the emotion and hyperbole, and present something of substance? (Facts, figures, research, etc.)

I thought it was pretty obvious that she doesn’t do this because the evidence doesn’t exist.

ceam said :

Well I had weet bix for breakfast this morning, so you know nothing. Also, all sheep have four legs, and my dog has four legs, therefore my dog is a sheep.

Seriously though Charlotte, if you’re going to engage in this debate I would suggest that you attempt to present a more reasoned and well-thought out argument. You seem to draw a clear line between “us” (you and maybe a few other rural dwellers who might or might not know what they’re talking about, but who are all unanimous in that they don’t want a pipeline in their backyard, whatever the benefits) and “them” (nasty urban types, probably public servants, who don’t give a stuff about the environment – i.e. your quality of life – and have multiple showers each day.)

Why don’t you try retreating slightly on the emotion and hyperbole, and present something of substance? (Facts, figures, research, etc.)

ceam said :

I spent from age 17 on an 800 acre working farm so you know nothing- never had a 4 wheel drive in my life.

Your writing and logic skills make me physically wince.

Who knew it was possible to become such an expert on water pipelines in just a week? All of those so-called “experts” who spent years at uni getting degrees in the field must be kicking themselves now that they realise they could have taught themselves everything they needed to know with a few Google searches.

el said :

Would that be the ‘delicate ecosystem’ of large hobby farms and four wheel drives?

I spent from age 17 on an 800 acre working farm so you know nothing- never had a 4 wheel drive in my life.
So no that would be someone who has the same opinion as this guy while watching the environment go to hell:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2zECTIKsFs

Would that be the ‘delicate ecosystem’ of large hobby farms and four wheel drives?

The new Cotter Dam is a major improvement to our water storage capacity and flexibility – and IMHO this pipeline is a luxury that I believe time will prove to be a bit of a white elephant.
I think that in planning all this capacity – ACTEW are a bit too much in the thrall of doomster climate predictions.
On our present path to building both facilities – and taking account of Govt statements re permanent water restrictions – I predict accelerating higher than necessary water prices and considerable increases in environmental flows to get rid of the water we are paying to collect.

Well I’m certainly willing to cut back to just two showers a day if Charlotte can assure me that her lifestyle doesn’t require any inconvenience to others (roads, power lines etc.)

And I would argue that lifestyle blocks cause even more environmental damage than closely settled urban populations (there are some good exceptions). Imagine the ‘ecosystem’ if everyone lived on 25 acres.

I cant see ceams problem and i had a good laugh at the video. The under ground pipe that will dump water into the upper burra creek will provide a healthy flow in times of low rain fall. The creek will be one of the healthiest in the region providing another refugee for animals and fish and the ACT and QBN tax payers pay for it. Now talking about the environment, why did ceam buy in burra and spoil the natural environment with a house if she was so worried?.
Im not worried, the environment is a hell of a lot better since the major sheep farming days. No more clear felling paddocks, no more sheep dips over flowing during rain and washing into the rivers.

patrick_keogh said :

Your case would be strengthened if you didn’t resort to hyperbole. Representing Canberrans as having four showers a day only make people think that you are loose with the truth about everything else. I can see from your video that you are upset but you won’t get too many others onside to your cause with hysteria. You say there are “many other good options”. What are they? You say that piping water in is never a success. Tell that to Kalgourlie. Tell that to the beneficiaries of the SWRP in Queensland. Tell it to the people of Adelaide. They will laugh in your face.

So learn to put your case in a more reasoned way and you may get a better hearing. Until then you just seem like a NIMBY.

1 What he said. Eco systems have enough problems without half-baked NIMBYs going in to bat for them.

ceam said :

Everyone has a right to their say and debating such issues should not entertain personal attacks..

What did you conceivably expect would happen when you posted an absolutely stupid comment on the Internet about people an intelligent activist would seek to get onside (3-4 showers a day? Really?).

Charlotte does not represent the majority of locals, most of whom either have no objection to the pipeline, or couldn’t care less one way or the other. As for not knowing about the pipeline, where has Charlotte been for the last 5 or 6 years during which ACTEW has been conducting community consultation? The drought wreaked havoc on the Burra Creek and the flora and fauna that depend on it. Many people are glad to know that reliable water will return to the creek despite any future droughts. Perhaps Charlotte did not see the flood last year, after the last drought broke. It ripped through the creek, taking bridges, trees, fences, creek banks and huge boulders in its wake. Compared to the amount of water nature can (and usually does after each drought) dump into the creekk, the pipeline flow will be a mere trickle.

Your case would be strengthened if you didn’t resort to hyperbole. Representing Canberrans as having four showers a day only make people think that you are loose with the truth about everything else. I can see from your video that you are upset but you won’t get too many others onside to your cause with hysteria. You say there are “many other good options”. What are they? You say that piping water in is never a success. Tell that to Kalgourlie. Tell that to the beneficiaries of the SWRP in Queensland. Tell it to the people of Adelaide. They will laugh in your face.

So learn to put your case in a more reasoned way and you may get a better hearing. Until then you just seem like a NIMBY.

Ceam,
I don’t think you could give a better NIMBY post than your last.
Congratulations, textbook stuff.

You do realise that the pipeline is underground right?

Compensation for some dust? LOL.

I will go down to london bridge and the nature reserve and film the creek beds where the water will be transfered through to the dam. All this was explained to us by scientists when the proposal was first put up for public knowledge. Scientists against the project took a whole group of us down to the reserve to show us how the damage would occur in layman terms. Since then I’ve read this document sold through the Environment dept of Australian Government and anyone can read for themselves. It discusses all pipelines that have been built around Australia and weighs up pros and cons. The final conclusion of that paper says this and I quote:

“Although water transport projects may be technically possible, every study so far has found that such projects would have high energy, economic, social and environmental costs.”

http://www.environment.gov.au/water/publications/action/pubs/moving-water.rtf.

The millions go to the company who engineers these pipelines and the companies who implement them and then is filtered on down to the workers themselves and even scientists personally against the scheme but having no choice to work with them to try and monitor and minimize damage.

I didn’t really have any real understanding of what was going on until last week when it hit me right in the face from 7am-6pm every day out the front of our place and dust starting coming into our home and then I realized just how big a project it was and my first thought was to complain about the superficial annoyances and even our phone line kept dropping out and wasn’t sure if that was their work interference. It started to make me think for the first time about finding out about it all first hand. My first thought was they need to compensate us by improving the road and my next thought was how will this impact value of property around here. Then when I found out in NSW compensation is out of the question for public works regardless of no betterment beyond the greater good. I started to question the greater good and that is when I realized after reading many differing reports and looking closer into this scheme that it wasn’t for the greater good either. It was no longer about my backyard but about the reserve down the way which is such a special place and no amount of community compensation could fix. So I decided to protest because this has really managed to get to me to the point where I’m willing to be ridiculed so maybe one voice of disapproval will tip the overwhelming BIG SELL they’ve been throwing at us for months. Basically I finally saw through all the BS and no longer became about my personal inconvenience because the dust and noise have since settled down as they move down the road and my phone is working fine. What I’m trying to achieve is letting out the truth about these transfer scheme as not being a good idea for anyone involved except in the short term creating jobs.

None of the people working on the project look locals in the eye, it is well known and felt many locals are against this scheme. When I went for a walk last week I met with a woman who has lived here 25 years and just felt sadness and upset by the whole thing. You get attached to the incredible beauty of the Reserve and to think it will be plundered by unnecessary water transfers is heartbreaking.

If I thought there was no other way to solve Canberra’s water shortage during a drought then I could understand completely and support using measures to minimize damage like any public work which goes ahead in the name of progress and sustainability. But when the public work has proven a failure in the past and the bad far outweighs the good and there are many other options available why should I stand by when I know in my heart and mind what they are doing is wrong?

ceam said The difficulty is not in laying pipes on Williamsdale road- it is the running of water through the creek beds of the reserve and the method of transfers having failed every where else economically, socially and environmentally as stated by Australian Gov reports.

What does this mean ? are they flooding the creeks before it goes into the pipes ?

You really should video the actual part you are concerned about, not some random road, We can then see if it is a delicate eco system or overgrazed willows and poplars

I am also curious how the millions ACTEW is spending on this is going to make them money. It seems to me it would reduce their profits and they wouldn’t be doing it unless they had to.

Jethro said :

Apparently she allows comments if they agree with her.

All other comments have been removed.

I allow all comments that do not make personal attacks or violate privacy. I am a mother and this is our home and when people make comments which threaten our security that is illegal and rightfully so.

As for our property having eroded areas and pest species that is because previous owners over grazed the land and planted non natives. It takes time to reverse the effects and certainly the satellite pictures of our place shows it when it wasn’t even our own. But this is an argument which has nothing to do with the destruction of the national reserve down the road. The difficulty is not in laying pipes on Williamsdale road- it is the running of water through the creek beds of the reserve and the method of transfers having failed every where else economically, socially and environmentally as stated by Australian Gov reports.

Everyone has a right to their say and debating such issues should not entertain personal attacks so I can’t respond to the bulk of posters on here that have resorted to this method of debate especially the one who says they work with one of my relatives. Certainly I would not want one of my work colleagues posting that in a general forum as a means of attack- but I will leave that one between the two of you, whoever that relative might be.

I am proud so many people have viewed my shaky video of protest and I can only hope others away from my backyard will take note should this happen to their neighbouring reserve. I’m not an activist – I am a normal mum and I choose my fights according to how close to home- that is I believe normal human behaviour. I am not a politician or masked crusader who can fight all the injustices of the world. I am concentrating on my small corner. And I am not hiding behind fake names to spurt hate comments just because someone is against a public work.

Apparently she allows comments if they agree with her.

All other comments have been removed.

But the sound of all that rushing water going through the pipe might put her free-range hens off their feed, man!

http://www.ingebra.com/index.htm

I particularly like the comment at the end about hoping that we get torrential rain for the next few years that damages the pipes, etc, and wastes millions of dollars of taxpayers money – bitter much????

So it’s a pipe running along the side of the road?

Not exactly a nuclear power plant or a coal-fired power station.

I happen to work with a relative of Charlotte. Their response after watching the video:

“oh dear” 🙁

What delicate ecosystem? The one all the offended NIMBYS have built houses, drive ways and septic tanks in (at no benefit to anyone but themselves I might add).

Oh my gawd!!!!!! Answer me this, you live out of town on the Williamsdale Road, where do you get all your supplies (food, clothing ect) from? & dont say Queanbeyan because Quangers benifits from this pipeline too. If you hate Canberra so much I hope its Cooma!

Another question, are you opposed to the quarry (where a lot of trucks drive up & down that road & have done for 10 years or more)? It will leave a blight on the landscape when they are finished with it. At least the pipeline will be buried……….

A bit…..sorry……a lot hypocrytical if you ask me.

Oh dear, “destroying the delicate eco-system”. Build 50 pipelines!

What a painful pile of nonsensical hippie NIMBY dribble.

I need another of my 4-shower quota now … feeling so unclean …

I’ll trade all the crap that’s been dumped near our property for a pipeline anyday.

Ha ha what a dribbler.
A pump station and an underground pipeline.
Yeah, its really going to ruin the delicate ecosystems of Williamsdale road.

Pure NIMBY.

Chop71 said :

lol, 3 or 4 showers a day Canberra people. YOW Meany – You stink!!!

Classic NIMBYism – it’s ugly; it’s going to damage the environment; nobody consulted me; it might help others but who cares, there’s no benefit to me; I didn’t know this was going to happen when I bought this house; etc. There’s even the standard misinformed hyperbole – I mean, who actually has time to have 3 or 4 showers a day? Does anyone know anyone who does this?

I also love the line about there being lots of cars and trucks driving past – it’s a road designed for vehicles, vehicles are using the road. Get over it.

The eco system, looks like introduced poplars and willows to me.

lol, 3 or 4 showers a day Canberra people.