Australian Standard 1742.4, why does the ACT ignore it?

dpm said :

The irony of the website is, as a bit of a crusade against speed cameras, if it is successful and they actually fix all the sinage to std i reckon two things will happen:
1) it won’t make a lick of difference to the speeding fine revenue in ACT
2) all the people who complain that ‘the sign was 5% crooked’, or ‘the sign was 40cm wide instead of 50cm’ won’t have anything to complain about after they are pinged.

I agree entirely.

That said, massive props to Sgt.Bungers for doing something about an issue he obviously feels strongly about (and doing it extremely well). It’s one thing to bitch and moan about something like street signage, it’s another thing entirely to have the gumption to actually tackle the issue intelligently.

no need to thank us.

Assuming the OP is the one on the front page of today’s CT – well done

Sgt. Bungers wrote: “I can understand that normal people will not find road infrastructure terribly interesting”

I find road infrastructure incredibly interesting, Sergeant — and i see myself as within one standard deviation of ‘normal’ 🙂

Judging by the number of posts so far, a lot of rioters find anything to do with traffic or road infrastructure or cyclists in their top 5 of interests.

I find that Canberra speed limits are generally designed to cater to local drivers — you’re meant to magically know what the speed limit is based on your extensive knowledge of Canberra. If you’re driving through a neighbourhood for the first time, you have to keep driving for up to 10km in some cases before you figure out what the speed limit is. And ‘going with the flow’ of traffic is not a good indicator because most cars drive 10-20kmh over the limit where the traffic conditions allow

I think that Andrew Barr and the rest of our democratically elected officials need to remember their place in society, they work for the people! I don’t remember voting for speed cameras or mobile speed cameras do any of you? This issue of how “speed signs should be properly put up” is typical of how our elected officials totally disregard the general public and what the majority of people want. Everyone knows that these cameras have nothing to do with increasing safety on our roads, if the government cared about the safety of our roads don’t you think they would have proper speed limit signage? The Governments of this country whether it be state or federal labour or liberal are experts at squeezing the general public, remember we are the people that put them their and our voice needs to be listened to and then acted upon rather than continuously being ignored and shut down IE ANDREW BARR!!!

some of the local associations are well enough organised (and grumpy enough) to be able to help you – the Hackett community association is often grumbling about roads so they’d probably be interested.

The obvious question is – is Australian Standard 1742.4 law? If so, when was it tabled? You can quote legislation, copyright doesn’t apply. If not, why would expect the govt to follow it?

Pandy said :

colourful sydney racing identity said :

Using ‘must’ instead of ‘should’ is a pretty big mistake and completely changes the validity of your argument.

In Australian law, “should” is the same as “must”.

These are guidelines, not law. And in plain English, should is very different to must. I nonetheless agree with Bungers’ argument though, regardless of whether it is based on guidelines or law.

I commend you for your efforts, Sgt Bungers. I understand these are merely guidelines, but I think your website makes a good argument for compliance nonetheless. I’m convinced. I have often driven along and found myself wondering what the go is with speed zone and other signage. I knew there had to have been some sort of rules/guidelines in place, but had never heard of this standard 1742.4.

Hope this gets off the ground mate.

colourful sydney racing identity said :

Using ‘must’ instead of ‘should’ is a pretty big mistake and completely changes the validity of your argument.

In Australian law, “should” is the same as “must”.

Since you’ve bothered to read the standard, is there anything in there about painting the changed speed limit on the actual roadway?

colourful sydney racing identity said :

So you’ve set up a website because you don’t like speed cameras?.

No. I don’t like speed cameras breeding like rabbits in a jurisdiction that follows no standard at all when it comes to putting up speed limit signs, or implementing speed limit zones.

If the ACT had the most overt speed limit signs in the country, along with a very stringent quality assurance policy of some sort when it came to maintaining signs, the argument about unfair levels of enforcement/revenue raising would be severely stifled.

Standards aren’t worth anything unless those parties who agreed to the standard enforce that standard.

I agree with OP… Good on you for starting your campaign…

Sgt.Bungers said :

KB1971 said :

Unless its mandated in the ACT Roads legislation then the ACT Gov is not bound to use it. As you know an AS is only a guidence document, not a law or mandatory standard, that is until someone calls it up.

But morally? 🙂 I realise that the ACT GovCo are not legally obliged to follow the standard, but given that an ACT Gov rep had input into the standard, and agreed to it, why does the ACT Gov not follow it?

KB1971 said :

I forgot to ask, Sgt, have you found it mandated in the ACT legislation anywhere?

If its not there & Andrew Barr said that they comply then I would say he was guessing or deflecting.

Nope I have not. I would be interested to know if the ACT has in fact legislated the standard into law, and Roads ACT or its contractors are simply obvious to it.

I found the NSW speed zone guidelines, they follow the standard very closely over the border.

http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/roadsafety/downloads/nsw_sza.pdf

Very good question. I would say that they helped as a matter of policy but the process has then stalled at the legislative stage somehow. It may still be on the table but it has not risen to the top of the list. Happens all the time in my department due to the process involved to introduce a piece of legislation.

The roads legislation is available on the web just google ACT road act & you should be able to find it easily enough (I am posting on my iPod otherwise I would post it for you).

The irony of the website is, as a bit of a crusade against speed cameras, if it is successful and they actually fix all the sinage to std i reckon two things will happen:
1) it won’t make a lick of difference to the speeding fine revenue in ACT
2) all the people who complain that ‘the sign was 5% crooked’, or ‘the sign was 40cm wide instead of 50cm’ won’t have anything to complain about after they are pinged.

KB1971 said :

Unless its mandated in the ACT Roads legislation then the ACT Gov is not bound to use it. As you know an AS is only a guidence document, not a law or mandatory standard, that is until someone calls it up.

But morally? 🙂 I realise that the ACT GovCo are not legally obliged to follow the standard, but given that an ACT Gov rep had input into the standard, and agreed to it, why does the ACT Gov not follow it?

KB1971 said :

I forgot to ask, Sgt, have you found it mandated in the ACT legislation anywhere?

If its not there & Andrew Barr said that they comply then I would say he was guessing or deflecting.

Nope I have not. I would be interested to know if the ACT has in fact legislated the standard into law, and Roads ACT or its contractors are simply obvious to it.

I found the NSW speed zone guidelines, they follow the standard very closely over the border.

http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/roadsafety/downloads/nsw_sza.pdf

nanzan said :

May I add to the mix the amazing prevalence of speed limit signage that surely does not comply with the standard because it is not printed properly. So much of the signage around Canberra has the speed limit number printed so that it is crooked or not centered on the sign. In no other jurisdiction have I seen speed limit signs that look so cheap and unprofessional.

Probably made by residents of select, secure establishments around town.

Australian Standards just a guide?? Not if you’re in the “trades”. The wording is usually to the point that if you don’t comply…you pretty much get dismissed from doing it ever again. For something like road safety I’d presume the penalties for non-compliance should be at least equivalent to those of other life-risking pursuits like safety equipment, electrical standards, gas appliances, etc. If road safety isn’t scrutinized to the letter of the law…well, I’ll just drive my un-roadworthy, non-ADR compliant car all I like, because if standards aren’t good enough for the A.C.T Government, they aren’t good enough for me.

This is a good point, and something that needs to be raised with our fearless leaders. If there’s an Australian Standard that contributes to both safety and usability, why aren’t we adopting it?

Good site, BTW.

mooo_cow said :

…
If they were serious about road safety…..

If they were serious about road safety you’d think they might do some sort of review and see what’s wrong with the road setup outside Calvary Hosiptal (on Hayden). Seriously, there’s a decent accident there at least once a month, if not more often! Hello, ‘black spot’!?!

So you’ve set up a website because you don’t like speed cameras?
‘However, one thing I cannot stand even more than complacent drivers, is government entrapment… Building roads to a standard that encourages the average motor vehicle driver to drive at a speed that is going to be higher than the planned posted speed limit… Erecting crooked little speed limit signs in a slap dash cost cutting manner (or indeed no signs at all on many ACT Roads), then enforcing that speed limit with the most speed cameras per capita in the country, is disgusting’
Government entrapment? Give me a break.

Sgt.Bungers, I heard your question on CM Talkback this morning, and thought the response to your question was a little light-on as well.

Congratulations on your web site as well…it looks fantastic.

May I add to the mix the amazing prevalence of speed limit signage that surely does not comply with the standard because it is not printed properly. So much of the signage around Canberra has the speed limit number printed so that it is crooked or not centered on the sign. In no other jurisdiction have I seen speed limit signs that look so cheap and unprofessional. (Not all the signs are like this – but a big proportion of them are.)

Do you have photos of any of these type of signs on your web site?

colourful sydney racing identity said :

housebound said :

Can’t quite see how one wrong word undermines an entire argument.

Even if standards are on ‘shoulds’ and not ‘musts’, neither Barr nor any other politician can claim the ACT complies when it doesn’t. As far as I understand it, that was part of the thrust of the argument.

Because if it said must, and don’t you are not compliant, if it says should and you don’t you can still be complying with the requirements under the code *sheesh*

I like this idea and it should be expanded into other standards.
Words like must and requirement should by replaced by ones like should and guideline.

Then no matter what the issue, we can claim adherence to the relevant Australian standard and no one will know any better.

Well until drivers start challenging their fines in court and judges start to accept that they may not have seen a speed sign that that does not meet he AS. Then the ACT government won’t do a thing about it unless it, until it starts affecting their hip pocket.

If they were serious about road safety, they would endeavour to ensure, road line markings ‘like the one in this link that has needed to be repainted for years near CIT Reid”
http://maps.google.com.au/maps?ll=-35.286679,149.133514&spn=0.000829,0.001203&t=k&z=20&vpsrc=6&lci=com.panoramio.all

I have also noticed (or dangerous not noticed) some give way signs around the Gungahlin suburbs are to high at 5m. Surely these “new” signs can’t be compliant with the AS.

housebound said :

Can’t quite see how one wrong word undermines an entire argument.

Even if standards are on ‘shoulds’ and not ‘musts’, neither Barr nor any other politician can claim the ACT complies when it doesn’t. As far as I understand it, that was part of the thrust of the argument.

Because if it said must, and don’t you are not compliant, if it says should and you don’t you can still be complying with the requirements under the code *sheesh*

So if the signs don’t comply with AS does that mean people could get off speeding fines using this technicality errr… information??

I forgot to ask, Sgt, have you found it mandated in the ACT legislation anywhere?

If its not there & Andrew Barr said that they comply then I would say he was guessing or deflecting.

Unless its mandated in the ACT Roads legislation then the ACT Gov is not bound to use it. As you know an AS is only a guidence document, not a law or mandatory standard, that is until someone calls it up.

An example of this is Motor Homes & Caravans, there are two standards for gas & electricity that are called up in the ADR’s (the mandatory product standard) so the manufacturers of these products have to comply with the relevant AS as referenced.

Its not the only document that has this issue, there is a document called Vehicle Standards Bulletin 14, it has been compiled by all of the states to help them with dealing with modified light vehicles. At this point in time while they have agreed with it in principle but not all the states have adopted it in legislation and some dont look to be for a while.

Politcs.

And then there are all the places where speed signs AREN’T. Like a few hundred metres after a merge when, having got the more important business of merging safely out of the way, you are now in a position to look around and wonder what the speed limit of said road is?

An interesting topic given that a few years ago a fwend of mine was ticketed on the parkway for exceed 60km/hr by more than 15km/hr, and double points to boot, it being the Friday of some long weekend or other.

The signage for the roadworks was abysmal to say the least. A single pair of signs in the 100km/hr zone said “Roadwork 60km/hr Ahead”, just before the Hindmarsh Drive overpass, and as the vehicles continued around the right hand sweep a cop was stationed with radar gun, getting all the motorists who assumed that first set of signs was advisory and to slow down and look for the start of the actual zone.

To cut a long story short, as I had SFA better to do at the time, I investigated the case with many trips to the library and the Roads section of the gubmnt, and discovered that the signs were so far removed from the Australian standard that there was a good case for contesting the ticket. (no 80km/hr buffer, no 60km/hr advisory before the zone proper etc, just a 100km/hr whammo into a 60km/hr zone with misleading sign placement)

My fwend had already paid the fine but after sending in a letter with my research to back it up the ticket was rescinded, the fine refunded and the points given back.

There’s no excuse for speeding through a properly signposted speed zone, however there’s also no excuse for misleading or substandard signage, and if you are ticketed in a non-complying zone then you certainly have grounds to contest a ticket.

colourful sydney racing identity said :

Sgt.Bungers said :

I need to clarify a bit of wording in my post. The standard is a set of best practice guidelines that outlines how speed limit zones “should” be implemented. I’ve used the word must which is wrong.

The standard has been developed by a national panel of road safety experts and government bodies, which state and territory governments may then legislate if they choose to. The ACT Government chooses to ignore the standard completely, whilst telling the public that they follow it.

Also anyone who visits the site, I am sorry about the png images. I’m switching them to jpg at present.

Using ‘must’ instead of ‘should’ is a pretty big mistake and completely changes the validity of your argument.

Rubbish it does.

Sgt.Bungers makes a very good point. The ACT government attempts to regulate speeding with a heavy hand and at the same time makes no attempt to comply with the suggested guidelines which are in the interest of road users. I think it’s a serious issue. Surely appropriate signage is important for road safety? If the government was actually serious about getting people to drive at appropriate speeds on our roads then they should make the effort to appropriately signpost those roads.

Are you Mr G in disguise??

But seriously, I agree. Surely they’d have a lot more credability (against accusations of revenue rasising) if they were shown to be allowing people every possible opportunity to follow the correct speed limits, as they have designated. Pointing towards compliance to an Aus std would certainly help do this for them…..

I think you’re going to find a lot of cases of non-standard compliance out there to document though! Hope you don’t have another day job! 🙂

This is great. How many times have you had to ask a passenger…”did you notice the speed limit here?” or gauge what other cars are doing. Then there’s all the changes of limit – surely there’s a rule on that?

My burning question would be around roadworks where individual and varying limits can be implemented and importantly, when they should be removed, (Tuggers parkway southbound just after Parkes way where THERE ARE NO ROADWORKS ANYMORE…) – although believe that’s a separate standard?

So a committee of peak bodies put together a standard. The idea of Australian standards is that if you meet one (a relevant standard) you can say you are of a certain quality. In this instance that would be roads, with speed limits and signage which is of a certain quality. Presumably in this case the “certain quality” would be speed limits and signs which are safe, and clearly understandable (since they are no good if people don’t follow them, and people can’t follow them if they can’t see the sign, or the limit changes so often they can not be followed).

Now I am not trying to suggest anyone could use the dodgy signage as an excuse for speeding, but if the standard is what a body including TAMS recommends as the minimum safe, understandable system, why are they non-compliant?

Why are they spending money on speed cameras to enforce speed limits, and not on money to make the signs advertising those limits clear to the population?

TL:DR – I’m with Bungers on this one.

Boring_Name said :

…Once again, good job compiling this list. I’ll be keeping an eye out for other potential breaches in my day-to-day.

Thanks for the support! I haven’t even started Tuggeranong yet.

Off to Woden and Gungahlin today to review the new 40 Areas.

colourful sydney racing identity said :

Using ‘must’ instead of ‘should’ is a pretty big mistake and completely changes the validity of your argument.

I used the word “should” once, and the word “must” once, when i should’ve used should twice. Say that 5 times fast 🙂

The point remains however, that the standard is a guideline put together by road authorities and road safety experts from all over country. What valid reason can there be for a road authority not to follow these guidelines?

The ACT Governments TAMS was one of the government bodies who contributed to, and voted on the standard.

The standard is ignored completely in the ACT, and yet Andrew Barr stated on 666 AM this morning that he had been “advised” that the australian standard is followed in the ACT. If this is the case, he has been falsely advised.

Given the ACT Government contributed to the standard, why do they not follow it? Why are our non Australian Standards compliant speed limit in the ACT enforced with more fixed speed cameras per capita than anywhere else in the country?

Is this fair?

Snap Sir! 🙂 Canberra Times I would think would bea starting point, as much as it pains me to suggest it.

I would prepare a brief summary of the instances where the standard is breached (similar to your website) and send an email to each of Canberra’s news outlets (Canberra times, ABC Canberra, etc.). Maybe cc the email to Andrew Barr’s office and TAMS while you’re at it. Mention that you contacted the relevant authorities first and are that you are unhappy with the response. Cold calling media outlets is probably not the easiest method, but it may be the only option unless another member works in a media outlet/has a contact.

Good job on the research you have done and the website you have set up, really good work. If it is true that the standards are being breached, it stands to reason that speeding fines are being issued unlawfully. It would be a really great if somebody in the legal realm could contribute a piece to your site outlining methods of appealing a speeding ticket in the case where a breach of the standards can be demonstrated. I just wish I had the qualifications to help.

Once again, good job compiling this list. I’ll be keeping an eye out for other potential breaches in my day-to-day.

Can’t quite see how one wrong word undermines an entire argument.

Even if standards are on ‘shoulds’ and not ‘musts’, neither Barr nor any other politician can claim the ACT complies when it doesn’t. As far as I understand it, that was part of the thrust of the argument.

Ross Solly?

Realistically there is no incentive for the gov’t to follow the standard. By having gray areas it’s a significant revenue raiser. Thus by fixing the gray area’s it would both cost money to fix, plus reduce the amount of revenue which the gov’t generates.

Before anyone jumps up and down stating “it’s simple – don’t speed” well that’s all well and good (and no, I haven’t received a speeding ticket to date), except I’m Canberra born and breed, and yet I ever so often find myself driving in an area which I don’t normally go to and completely unaware of the actual speed limit (for some reason making sure I don’t crash into other cars at form one lanes is a bit more important, and it’s usually here where signs are placed), and thus I’ll be driving along simply using the other cars as a guide for the limit.

Can’t use common sense to determine what the speed limit is as that is not followed when assigning limits.

Sgt.Bungers said :

I need to clarify a bit of wording in my post. The standard is a set of best practice guidelines that outlines how speed limit zones “should” be implemented. I’ve used the word must which is wrong.

The standard has been developed by a national panel of road safety experts and government bodies, which state and territory governments may then legislate if they choose to. The ACT Government chooses to ignore the standard completely, whilst telling the public that they follow it.

Also anyone who visits the site, I am sorry about the png images. I’m switching them to jpg at present.

Using ‘must’ instead of ‘should’ is a pretty big mistake and completely changes the validity of your argument.

I need to clarify a bit of wording in my post. The standard is a set of best practice guidelines that outlines how speed limit zones “should” be implemented. I’ve used the word must which is wrong.

The standard has been developed by a national panel of road safety experts and government bodies, which state and territory governments may then legislate if they choose to. The ACT Government chooses to ignore the standard completely, whilst telling the public that they follow it.

Also anyone who visits the site, I am sorry about the png images. I’m switching them to jpg at present.