Does anyone care what the Australian Christian Lobby thinks about prostitution in the ACT? [Now with poll]

johnboy 12 May 2011 65

The ACL is thrilled that gullible buffoons in Canberra’s major media (WIN, ABC, CT) are taking them seriously when it comes to changes to prostitution law in the ACT.

In a city of 300,000 it would be a shock if the ACL could sway more than 1,000 votes.

Is presenting good talent for interview and controversial views all that is necessary to get oxygen?

(For the record the ACL wants buying the services of prostitutes a crime.)

Do you care what the Australian Christian Lobby thinks about prostitution?

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65 Responses to Does anyone care what the Australian Christian Lobby thinks about prostitution in the ACT? [Now with poll]
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Mysteryman Mysteryman 10:47 am 14 Nov 11

devils_advocate said :

There are numerous detailed accounts in the New Testament of Jesus specifically making a point to look after the societally disadvantaged, including prostitutes and adulterers. In fact this was the basis of one of the more well-known accounts, culminating with ‘let he who is without sin cast the first stone” (involving a female adulterer about to be stoned to death by angy mob).

In my view, it seems pretty unambiguous that anyone purporting to be a christian would be more about harm minimisation (i.e. actually directly helping people) than sitting around judging people (which is all this is about – making a political point – because let’s face it it will have zero impact on the level of actual activity, and will give rise to all the problems noted above).

That’s a good point. If you actually speak to the ACL I think you’ll find that protecting the people involved is a huge part of their motives. The Eros foundation, and people who are in favour of prostitution, neglect to mention that there are an awful lot of girls involved who don’t want to be involved. They paint a picture that everyone working in the sex industry is there by choice and enjoying their job. I’m sure that is true for some/many, but for many others it’s not. Even in the ACT where it’s legalised and supposedly regulated, there are a large number of girls forced into it (including immigrants who have been trafficked – yes it happens in Canberra). Regulation has done little to help these people and ensure that only those who want to be, are working.

I suppose the issue is the difference of opinion in regards to what constitutes “helping” the disadvantaged.

devils_advocate devils_advocate 10:11 am 14 Nov 11

There are numerous detailed accounts in the New Testament of Jesus specifically making a point to look after the societally disadvantaged, including prostitutes and adulterers. In fact this was the basis of one of the more well-known accounts, culminating with ‘let he who is without sin cast the first stone” (involving a female adulterer about to be stoned to death by angy mob).

In my view, it seems pretty unambiguous that anyone purporting to be a christian would be more about harm minimisation (i.e. actually directly helping people) than sitting around judging people (which is all this is about – making a political point – because let’s face it it will have zero impact on the level of actual activity, and will give rise to all the problems noted above).

Mysteryman Mysteryman 10:10 am 14 Nov 11

The ACL is a lobby group. Fundamentally they are just like any other lobby group. They speak to politicians on behalf of constituents whose interests they represent (and despite assertions to the contrary, I sincerely doubt that most genuinely religious people are in favour of legalised prostitution) Those of you whinging about it are more than welcome to set up your own lobby group, rather than bitching about it like a group of cry babies and acting like you are the only ones with all the answers. I’m sure if your point of view is as insightful and enlightened as you think it is, then the politicians will listen to you.

Deref Deref 7:28 am 14 Nov 11

2604 said :

Deref said :

The sex industry isn’t forcing you to use its products and services, nor are they attempting to stop you and your religious friends from doing anything; you and your religion are attempting (and, so far, succeeding) to force us to consume your your products and services (i.e. your “morals”) and to prevent people from engaging in their chosen businesses and pursuits.

The ACL doesn’t exactly have a monopoly on forcing its morals onto people though. Ever heard of an entity called the Australian Greens?

You don’t have to like them, but at least the Greens were democratically elected and won a significant number of seats. The ACL’s candidates, where they stand, do as badly as you’d expect them to; I think Fred Nile’s about the only one. Of course there are plenty of ACL supporters among our pollies, but they’re not honest enough to admit their allegiance in their campaigns – they only show their colours once they’re elected.

2604 said :

Also, I should re-emphasise what has been said elsewhere – the ACL are not representative of mainstream religious people, most of whom have no issue with legalised prostitution (nor gay marriage, stem cell research, etc).

But you never hear the “mainstream” criticising the ACL or its influence, do you. When was the last time you saw “mainstream” Christians demonstrating for gay marriage or the handing over of paedophiles in their church to the police?

I’ll believe it when I see it.

2604 2604 10:08 pm 13 Nov 11

Deref said :

The sex industry isn’t forcing you to use its products and services, nor are they attempting to stop you and your religious friends from doing anything; you and your religion are attempting (and, so far, succeeding) to force us to consume your your products and services (i.e. your “morals”) and to prevent people from engaging in their chosen businesses and pursuits.

The ACL doesn’t exactly have a monopoly on forcing its morals onto people though. Ever heard of an entity called the Australian Greens?

Also, I should re-emphasise what has been said elsewhere – the ACL are not representative of mainstream religious people, most of whom have no issue with legalised prostitution (nor gay marriage, stem cell research, etc).

Deref Deref 7:41 pm 13 Nov 11

Mysteryman said :

Deref said :

Mysteryman said :

neanderthalsis said :

Mysteryman said :

johnboy said :

The right to speak should never be confused with the right to be heard

Why should the sex workers (it’s really the “sellers” as opposed to the “workers”) have the right to be heard if other groups don’t? Personally, I don’t care for their point of view, but I still tolerate it without treating them like people of lower intelligence.

The sex worker/sellers are not trying to impose their version of morality on the rest of society…

Actually, it’s exactly what they’re doing. Their moral standpoint just happens to be the opposite of the ACL’s.

Of all the distortions of logic put forward by the religious community, this has to be the most distorted.

I notice that you haven’t bothered to explain how it’s a distortion of logic. Should we assume it’s because you don’t actually have a sound argument?

I didn’t bother because others have done it more than adequately. But to save you the trouble of reading the thread…

The sex industry isn’t forcing you to use its products and services, nor are they attempting to stop you and your religious friends from doing anything; you and your religion are attempting (and, so far, succeeding) to force us to consume your your products and services (i.e. your “morals”) and to prevent people from engaging in their chosen businesses and pursuits.

What part of that is still escaping you?

Mysteryman Mysteryman 6:10 pm 13 Nov 11

Deref said :

Mysteryman said :

neanderthalsis said :

Mysteryman said :

johnboy said :

The right to speak should never be confused with the right to be heard

Why should the sex workers (it’s really the “sellers” as opposed to the “workers”) have the right to be heard if other groups don’t? Personally, I don’t care for their point of view, but I still tolerate it without treating them like people of lower intelligence.

The sex worker/sellers are not trying to impose their version of morality on the rest of society…

Actually, it’s exactly what they’re doing. Their moral standpoint just happens to be the opposite of the ACL’s.

Of all the distortions of logic put forward by the religious community, this has to be the most distorted.

I notice that you haven’t bothered to explain how it’s a distortion of logic. Should we assume it’s because you don’t actually have a sound argument?

fgzk fgzk 10:24 am 13 Nov 11

Lswchp “Prostitution, in my very limited experience, is not a happy caper.”

LSWCHP $250+ an hour for pleasing a client in a way that few can, who is unhappy. Mostly it just involves accepting that another person has a need, that they want to openly express, with another human being, in private, in their own time. A skilled whore will make sure everyone is happy.

$350 cash in a white envelope will guarantee that what ever it is that makes you happy ( No scat or blood or technically difficult stuff) happens for an hour. I am a good listener. You would be surprised how many people just want to be listened too or have a chat without fear of consequence. Its as much in the mind as in the flesh. Or you can just pound away as usual for a minute or two then scurry off. Up to you. I am always happy with envelope.

When you go to your “unhappy caper” each day, to earn the cash, to pay the bills, to feed the family, do you tolerate your clients fantasy of what work should be. We all have an inner whore.

Deref Deref 8:28 am 13 Nov 11

2604 said :

Deref said :

As I write this the voting is 92 to 8. I’d say that reflects the general Australian consensus, and yet the Christian lobby has influence in inverse proportion. Take the gay marriage issue as an example – a tiny tail is wagging a huge dog, and it’s the same with many issues.

What I want to know is how they achieve this disproportionate influence. Is it money?

The weakness of politicians, who pander to minority interest groups like this?

Yeah – but why? Common sense says that there’d be more votes in appealing to the majority rather than a tiny fringe group like the ACL.

2604 2604 11:35 pm 12 Nov 11

Deref said :

As I write this the voting is 92 to 8. I’d say that reflects the general Australian consensus, and yet the Christian lobby has influence in inverse proportion. Take the gay marriage issue as an example – a tiny tail is wagging a huge dog, and it’s the same with many issues.

What I want to know is how they achieve this disproportionate influence. Is it money?

The weakness of politicians, who pander to minority interest groups like this?

Surely holding those politicians accountable, rather than trying to censure or prohibit the activities of minority groups – including lobby groups like the ACL, National Farmers’ Federation, and Pharmacy Guild, etc – is the right answer. Democracies have to protect minority rights; the issue is that many such minorities hold disproportionate sway over government. Fix the government.

LSWCHP LSWCHP 9:29 pm 12 Nov 11

It’s threads like this one that keep me coming back to this forum. It’s very reassuring to know that the tiny, crazy vocal minorities like the ACL are far outnumberd by thoughtful people who can see through their evil polluted smoke and dark mirrors.

Prostitution, in my very limited experience, is not a happy caper. But it’s far better to have it legal, and regulated rather than driven underground into the realm of the scurrying vermin. If only The Powers That Be could see that the same thing applies to making drug use illegal.

Tooling around the web t’other night I came across Peter, Paul and Mary singing “Where have all the flowers gone?” with Peter Seeger. The chorus goes “When will we ever learn…”. I do wonder, when will we ever learn?

poetix poetix 5:52 pm 12 Nov 11

The emphasis should be on providing safe working conditions for the women (mostly women) who work in this industry, which does carry certain risks. A more thoughtful Christian perspective might put the emphasis on avoiding harm to these women, rather than driving them onto the streets where there are no safeguards at all, and the balance between worker and client inevitably changes. Prostitution has probably always been here and always will, and refusing to keep it legal would be condemning sex workers to a far worse situation.

People like this group certainly give Christianity a bad name.

Deref Deref 5:09 pm 12 Nov 11

As I write this the voting is 92 to 8. I’d say that reflects the general Australian consensus, and yet the Christian lobby has influence in inverse proportion. Take the gay marriage issue as an example – a tiny tail is wagging a huge dog, and it’s the same with many issues.

What I want to know is how they achieve this disproportionate influence. Is it money?

VicePope VicePope 1:40 pm 12 Nov 11

I am Christian (Catholic) and I do not give the patootie of a deceased rodent what the ACL thinks about anything; nor do I know anyone else who does. No-one elected them (so they have zero legitimacy or credibility), and the field is ripe for someone more rational and nuanced to take up a similar name and express the views that actual people may hold.
As to prostitution itself, it’s always struck me as a miserable trade from every perspective. But others may reasonably hold the view that it provides some kind of social benefit, when regulated as it is in the ACT. Dissociating it from criminality of one kind or another is always going to be difficult.

Deref Deref 12:29 pm 12 Nov 11

Mysteryman said :

neanderthalsis said :

Mysteryman said :

johnboy said :

The right to speak should never be confused with the right to be heard

Why should the sex workers (it’s really the “sellers” as opposed to the “workers”) have the right to be heard if other groups don’t? Personally, I don’t care for their point of view, but I still tolerate it without treating them like people of lower intelligence.

The sex worker/sellers are not trying to impose their version of morality on the rest of society…

Actually, it’s exactly what they’re doing. Their moral standpoint just happens to be the opposite of the ACL’s.

Of all the distortions of logic put forward by the religious community, this has to be the most distorted.

Deref Deref 12:23 pm 12 Nov 11

Jim Jones said :

The ACL can go f^&k themselves for free. No money needs to change hands.

Take that as my answer too.

averagejoeaussie averagejoeaussie 12:44 am 02 Jun 11

Ah, my favourite subject: religion (especially Christian/Catholic vs anything else!)
Firstly, who do these ACL idiots think they are? You believe and practice what you want and as long as it doesn’t interfere with me or anybody else, good luck to you; but don’t get on your high horse and try to impose your beliefs on me – i’ll mind my own business. This is how the name of religion has been responsible for more deaths than any other since the dawn of time: INTOLERANCE.
So, secondly, here we go again; another ill thought out solution that will only drive the oldest profession in the world underground (no taxes for the Gov’t or employment for those who chose it), increasing the rates of rapes and sexual assults in the streets because some alter-boy molesting mob (if proof is required, ask the Vatican for their denial) decides it doesn’t like other people enjoying sex. By the way, where in the bible or ten commandments does it explicitly say consentual sex between unmarried people is taboo, not to be enjoyed? And if it wasn’t to be enjoyed, how come (pun not intended) it feels so good? Surely it would hurt like a bitch unless you were married. I know, apparently, that I can’t commit adultery or covert my neighbour’s wife but that presumes I am married; what if I am not? And what if the woman I am with is not? I cannot be committing adultery or coveting my neighbour’s wife – nor can she – and what if the wife is not my neighbour? She might live in the next street or suburb………..

Mr Evil Mr Evil 10:53 am 15 May 11

Prostitution should be banned – after all, look at all those kids that prostitutes have molested over the years.

Watson Watson 9:38 am 15 May 11

ginger_sunshine said :

if the girl is smart enough to charge then go for it.

I found this comment quite offensive…

I agree that it is better that it is decriminalise it just because for lots of “girls” this is not a free choice. They need protection even more than other workers, which they wouldn’t get if it were illegal.

ginger_sunshine ginger_sunshine 1:26 am 15 May 11

Mysteryman said :

It’s currently illegal to have brothels operating in

LSWCHP said :

Mysteryman said :

neanderthalsis said :

Mysteryman said :

johnboy said :

The right to speak should never be confused with the right to be heard

Why should the sex workers (it’s really the “sellers” as opposed to the “workers”) have the right to be heard if other groups don’t? Personally, I don’t care for their point of view, but I still tolerate it without treating them like people of lower intelligence.

The sex worker/sellers are not trying to impose their version of morality on the rest of society…

Actually, it’s exactly what they’re doing. Their moral standpoint just happens to be the opposite of the ACL’s.

Wrong. Wrong, wrong, wrong.

The two parties have different points of view, but the key difference is that the folks from the sex industry are not out there lobbying government ministers up to and including the PM in an attempt to force the entire population of the country to engage in prostitution. They might like a larger customer base, but they are *not* attemptintg to impose their viewpoint on the entire population of Australia.

I’m going to stop you right there. Are the sex lobby trying to get the laws changed to allow brothels to be set up throughout the ACT, or are they not? It’s my understanding that they’re lobbying the government to change the current legislation to allow them to spread out into some 20 or so other suburbs around Canberra. Is that not correct? I’d be happy for you to correct me if that’s not the case.

If that’s true, then that is most certainly a move to impose their views on the rest of the ACT public.

Actually, being allowed access to more areas does not impose their views on anyone else, not unless they were lobbying to also force people to go inside and spend money.

If someone who is mortally allergic to chocolate is not allowed to have their need shut down all chocolatiers in their area, why should a small group of people force other adults to give up clean, consenting fun? Personally I doubt they’d make much money though – it’s not discreet enough in a town as small as Canberra.

I totally support the sex industry (when it’s done within the law) – if the girl is smart enough to charge then go for it. There’s plenty of guys who will pay for the service, and where there’s demand…

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