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Overstary your visa – fine. Come by leaky boat – not fine.

By John Hargreaves 29 December 2014 48

asylum-seekers-stock-291214

I’ve been in good company recently, joining others in banging on about the ill treatment of asylum seekers and trying to draw attention to the fact that the scale of the problem does not justify the degree of power and might being applied to repelling those seeking succour on our shores by coming here in leaky boats.

I have been bagged for drawing attention to the fact that perhaps the scale of the naval and customs attention (not to mention the enormous cost) to these people is disproportionate to the threat they pose to our nation.

Some time ago, I said how about having a better attempt to stop people from overstaying their visas and thus staying here illegally.

It is a fact that those who come here do not do so illegally. They are seeking asylum and until they are proven not to be genuine, they have the protection of international charters we have signed up to.

But… only recently do we now have published some thumbnail figures of those illegals who do overstay their visas. We now have a new minister dedicated to repelling at least some of them. Yeah right!

What did Labor do to stop the overstayers? Nothing. What did that sensitive new age guy, Scott Morrison do to stop the overstayers? Nothing. What will new Minister Peter Dutton do?

Well, rest easily in your beds. He’s se3nt a message to the illegal bikies! Go Pete! That’ll do the trick! Any overstaying international bikies will get short shrift!

But, hang on a minute! What about the rest of the 62,000 – yes 62,000 people overstayed their visas in 2013! How many boat bound asylum seekers were there in 213? Nowhere near 62,000, I’ll bet!

And who were these illegals? The biggest offenders were Chinese (7,600), Malaysia (6,400), the US(5,200) and the UK (3,700). And of the overstayers, visitors accounted for 44,800 of them with the rest being students.

So what have those guardians of our safety done about fixing a problem which has seen over 60,000 people come into Australia (largely by plane) and who have stayed here illegally?

Oh. Not much really. That has to be because they don’t pose a threat. Really? How can you tell? You can tell the boat people are terrorists because they come here after a perilous journey risking their lives and the lives of their children with next to nothing by way of possessions. Simple really! Visitors just make mistakes with their visas! I believe it

The illegals who come by plane are fine but the asylum seekers who come by boat are not!

I remind those who continue to bag my stance that the World Trade Centre in 2001 was attacked by passengers who took over control of aeroplanes, not leaky boats.


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48 Responses to
Overstary your visa – fine. Come by leaky boat – not fine.
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Blen_Carmichael 7:22 am 04 Jan 15

F. Scott Fitzgerald once observed, “An exclamation mark is like laughing at your own jokes.” Mr Hargreaves might reflect on this.

CraigT 7:22 pm 02 Jan 15

shauno said :

I cant believe we have this debate going one again here. Overstaying a visa and arriving illegally by boat are completely different issues. The people smuggling can be and has been stopped by successful policies by the Howard government and yet again by the current LNP. Where as people who come here by Visa we know exactly who they are and they choose to overstay nothing you can do about that and you cant just initiate a man hunt for every one that overstays so thats just one thing we have to live with. They usually get found eventually.

Just on that last point, around 1/3 of them are deported within the year, another 1/3 are deported in later years, and the last 1/3 never leave, for various reasons.

The Grand Mufti in Sydney was a visa overstayer who refused to leave – he just held out until Immigration went with the easy option of just giving in to him.

Overstayers arrive here legally. They certainly aren’t scoring free housing, lawyers, and oodles of undeserved welfare as the asylum-scammers are. When they are detected they are detained at places like Villawood after which they are usually deported.

Hargreaves said something about 62,000 people overstaying their visa last year. This is garbage, and fairly typical of the inability of the hand-wringers to get their facts correct.

He also repeats the boring hand-wringers’ slogan about asylum-seekers ‘not being illegal’. They have broken the law by entering this country without permission. The UN Convention on Refugees specifically refers to this act of illegality.

The Convention also defines the refugees’ responsibility to announce themselves to the authorities in the first country they come to. Paying people smugglers to get you to a different country was definitely not part of the spirit of the Convention and it certainly isn’t part of its letter – we need proper refugee laws that restrict the ability to apply for asylum only to genuine refugees, that is, people arriving directly from a country where they are in danger.

gazket 3:27 pm 02 Jan 15

John Hargreaves said :

If I was king of the world, I would open our hearts to those who run from death, who run from torture, who risk their lives and that of their kids. I would spend more on the checking of asylum claims and less on sending the Border Patrols after them.

Interesting ……

I only went to yr9 at school. Please explain how would you know who the boat people are and if they even put in a claim if boats can turn up at any port or part of the coastline and people can just mingle.

gazket 2:54 pm 02 Jan 15

We know who Visa overstayers are. Their real names, well mostly.

Visa over stayers are not exploiting our unemployment benefits, are not planning on bringing out there long lost relatives who will also exploit our benefits systems.

Cry a river Hargreaves . How do we pay for them with having to boost our own tax payments to support them and drop our own standards of living ????

Maybe we could cut senior government pensions to pay for them. I recon that would go down like a lead baloon.

rosscoact 2:42 pm 02 Jan 15

dungfungus said :

JC said :

chewy14 said :

Firstly, it’s not 400000 overstayers. Secondly, the illegal boat arrivals were growing enormously under the previous government’s policy, year on year.

You seem to have missed answering my last question, so I’ll ask again so we can all he sure of your exact position:
How many refugees should Australia accept and if you accept there needs to be limited, what should we do with the limit +1 boat arrival?

Some interesting information, from News Limited of all places:

http://www.news.com.au/world/ten-myths-around-asylum-seekers-arriving-on-boats-in-australian-waters/story-fndir2ev-1226676024840

Oh, whilst numbers may have grown under Labor do of course remember that was also the time that the wars were coming to an end in Sri Lanaka and Afganistan and the persecution that this resulted in.

The figures also started to drop under Labor too, when the PNG solution was put in place, this also coerlates to a general drop world wide too.

The war in Sri Lanka finished years ago and the (un)civil war in Afghanistan continues.
The article says Australia accepts more refugees per capita than most other countries and the the UN says elsewhere that “rich” countries only take 20% of all refugees.
I find it tiring that you still apologise for Labor’s border control policy mistakes by qualifying the fact that asylum seeker arrivals “may” have increased under Labor. They increased dramatically and it should be noted that since that article was published, asylum seekers coming to Australlia have virtually stopped thanks to the efforts of the current government who have also smashed the myth in the 12 month old article that claims boats cannot be stopped and turned back.
Finally, it never surprises me how lefties will cherrypick articles from Murdoch papers that may support their view. The rest of the time the Murdoch media is relentlessly attacked for its perceived reactionary views.

The content and date of that article shows that it was before the last election and designed neutralise any advantage that Labor might have over the LNP on this issue.
It never surprises me that some people don’t actually read the few paragraphs at the end of the links but react in outrage nevertheless.

watto23 2:21 pm 02 Jan 15

John, one issue I’ve tried to get some attention to in the past but seems to be ignored by politicians, is those that come and work here on a WHV. As a traveller who frequents travel forums and chats to many travellers overseas who have visited Australia, its a well known rort to tick the resident of Australia box on your tax return to get the lower tax rate here and the tax free threshold. This comes about partly because the definition of resident is vague as well. It would be great if the politicians fixed these rules up to remove the vagueness. Either state that those on a WHV are entitled to resident status for taxation purposes or state they are not. Off the back of this problem are companies that charge a fortune to do the taxes, just so they can lie about the resident status get some of the extra money.

Finally its also known that if you are a european for example, that overstaying here is perfectly OK and nothing will happen, except for being banned from reentry for 3 years. Some young people think this is perfectly OK.

It probably needs to be pointed out most people overstay because they are working illegally, not because they forgot when their visa expired.

watto23 2:14 pm 02 Jan 15

MERC600 said :

Geez John. Your off to a flying start. You suffering from a bad prawn from Xmas?

One thing that I wondered about is why a lot of the ‘boat’ people fly into Indonesia, then fork out big dough to climb into a leaky boat, destroy their documents, and hope the thing hits land before it sinks (and as we now know, for around 1200 people, ‘hoping’ didn’t cut it )

If they were able to fly into Indo, why not fly direct to Sydney, and then claim asylum? Am not up with our asylum laws, but is arriving by boat, better that arriving by plane. Is boat arrival some sort of ‘back door’ access.

They do it because they will never get a visa to come here by plane. Many do try though and do come that way. The conservative politicians in this country will have you believe these people are wealthy queue jumpers, when they are desperate people, who often sell everything and more (like loans that they need to fulfill when they get here) just for the chance of a better life. I bet none of the decision makers has ever been to any of these places except for the rare political staged visit where the worst is hidden.

If Australia did more to help with processing of refugees, then the boat wouldn’t look like a good proposition. We naturally cannot just open the flood gates for refugees, but there are far better ways of dealing with it all. People arriving on boats is a symptom of a problem. That problem is too many legitimate refugees with no where to go. In the mean time there is concocted idea equating boat people with terrorism, thus justifying the expense of spending millions on a program just to keep a few refugees out as we don’t want any more muslims (of course many are not muslim either!) here.

dungfungus 7:42 am 02 Jan 15

JC said :

chewy14 said :

Firstly, it’s not 400000 overstayers. Secondly, the illegal boat arrivals were growing enormously under the previous government’s policy, year on year.

You seem to have missed answering my last question, so I’ll ask again so we can all he sure of your exact position:
How many refugees should Australia accept and if you accept there needs to be limited, what should we do with the limit +1 boat arrival?

Some interesting information, from News Limited of all places:

http://www.news.com.au/world/ten-myths-around-asylum-seekers-arriving-on-boats-in-australian-waters/story-fndir2ev-1226676024840

Oh, whilst numbers may have grown under Labor do of course remember that was also the time that the wars were coming to an end in Sri Lanaka and Afganistan and the persecution that this resulted in.

The figures also started to drop under Labor too, when the PNG solution was put in place, this also coerlates to a general drop world wide too.

The war in Sri Lanka finished years ago and the (un)civil war in Afghanistan continues.
The article says Australia accepts more refugees per capita than most other countries and the the UN says elsewhere that “rich” countries only take 20% of all refugees.
I find it tiring that you still apologise for Labor’s border control policy mistakes by qualifying the fact that asylum seeker arrivals “may” have increased under Labor. They increased dramatically and it should be noted that since that article was published, asylum seekers coming to Australlia have virtually stopped thanks to the efforts of the current government who have also smashed the myth in the 12 month old article that claims boats cannot be stopped and turned back.
Finally, it never surprises me how lefties will cherrypick articles from Murdoch papers that may support their view. The rest of the time the Murdoch media is relentlessly attacked for its perceived reactionary views.

JC 8:05 pm 01 Jan 15

chewy14 said :

Firstly, it’s not 400000 overstayers. Secondly, the illegal boat arrivals were growing enormously under the previous government’s policy, year on year.

You seem to have missed answering my last question, so I’ll ask again so we can all he sure of your exact position:
How many refugees should Australia accept and if you accept there needs to be limited, what should we do with the limit +1 boat arrival?

Some interesting information, from News Limited of all places:

http://www.news.com.au/world/ten-myths-around-asylum-seekers-arriving-on-boats-in-australian-waters/story-fndir2ev-1226676024840

Oh, whilst numbers may have grown under Labor do of course remember that was also the time that the wars were coming to an end in Sri Lanaka and Afganistan and the persecution that this resulted in.

The figures also started to drop under Labor too, when the PNG solution was put in place, this also coerlates to a general drop world wide too.

dungfungus 5:55 pm 01 Jan 15

chewy14 said :

John Hargreaves said :

So let me get this right. You righties say that well, we can’t find them so OK . It costs too much to do a man hunt. Good one that. Compare that against the 14,000 arrivals of alum seekers at its height. And by you numbers we have 30,000 of these people seeking help in Australia at the moment.

So 30,000 people seeking assistance from persecution against 400,000 over stayers who are here because they can abscond and no-one is going to be serious about kicking them out. having a 3 year ban on visas once a holiday or business visa expires is some threat!

If I was king of the world, I would open our hearts to those who run from death, who run from torture, who risk their lives and that of their kids. I would spend more on the checking of asylum claims and less on sending the Border Patrols after them.

AND… I would legislate that if a visa is overstayed for other than humanitarian reasons, it would mean no future visas at all. and I would insist that this information be advised to travellers at the point of airline/ship bookings and on the carriers themselves. You get advised of the consequences of importing drugs and fruit, why not the consequences of overstaying a visa.

But I’m not the immigration guru. Dutton is and his priority is not the 400,000 over stayers, it is the miniscule number of “bikers” and criminals who come to our shores with malice aforethought! I feel so safe now!

This guy is just creating something else for us to be scared of. Where are the figures of thugs coming into Australia in such numbers as should warrant being on the top of the “hit list”?

Firstly, it’s not 400000 overstayers. Secondly, the illegal boat arrivals were growing enormously under the previous government’s policy, year on year.

You seem to have missed answering my last question, so I’ll ask again so we can all he sure of your exact position:
How many refugees should Australia accept and if you accept there needs to be limited, what should we do with the limit +1 boat arrival?

I believe the person who told me the figure was 400,000 was correct and John doesn’t have a problem with it either. We all know that John has inside information.
There are often annexures to media releases that are not published. The 57,000 odd 2010 figure quoted by the Department was in their own words “an estimate”.
Given the movement information that Department collects and manages the figure should have been an exact one.
The “success” rate in tracking down the over-stayers is very small so the end of year figures will compound. It’s all about resources; I guess every country has the same problem.

chewy14 2:52 pm 01 Jan 15

John Hargreaves said :

So let me get this right. You righties say that well, we can’t find them so OK . It costs too much to do a man hunt. Good one that. Compare that against the 14,000 arrivals of alum seekers at its height. And by you numbers we have 30,000 of these people seeking help in Australia at the moment.

So 30,000 people seeking assistance from persecution against 400,000 over stayers who are here because they can abscond and no-one is going to be serious about kicking them out. having a 3 year ban on visas once a holiday or business visa expires is some threat!

If I was king of the world, I would open our hearts to those who run from death, who run from torture, who risk their lives and that of their kids. I would spend more on the checking of asylum claims and less on sending the Border Patrols after them.

AND… I would legislate that if a visa is overstayed for other than humanitarian reasons, it would mean no future visas at all. and I would insist that this information be advised to travellers at the point of airline/ship bookings and on the carriers themselves. You get advised of the consequences of importing drugs and fruit, why not the consequences of overstaying a visa.

But I’m not the immigration guru. Dutton is and his priority is not the 400,000 over stayers, it is the miniscule number of “bikers” and criminals who come to our shores with malice aforethought! I feel so safe now!

This guy is just creating something else for us to be scared of. Where are the figures of thugs coming into Australia in such numbers as should warrant being on the top of the “hit list”?

Firstly, it’s not 400000 overstayers. Secondly, the illegal boat arrivals were growing enormously under the previous government’s policy, year on year.

You seem to have missed answering my last question, so I’ll ask again so we can all he sure of your exact position:
How many refugees should Australia accept and if you accept there needs to be limited, what should we do with the limit +1 boat arrival?

rosscoact 12:10 pm 01 Jan 15

rosscoact said :

Justin, certainly a vexed issue and no simple answers. It seems to be getting more complicated as policy shifts in other countries affect the actions of refugees and the people who profit off them.

It’s not the policy intention that bothers me. Well I should say, that it doesn’t bother me as much as it used to. It is the heartless cruelty that is applied to vulnerable people. Every person and organisation, who isn’t paid by the present government or who has a ulterior motive eg IPA and News Corp, and has first hand knowledge of the conditions in which people are detained offshore, decries the conditions in which they are detained.

Keeping children in detention for extended periods (and both sides of politics are guilty of this) is abhorrent and frankly disgusting. Handing over people who are seeking asylum to the very regime from which they are escaping is almost beyond comprehension.

The high moral ground is easy to take when you would, because it is morally right, protect a person you are responsible for while they are in your care. You and everyone else on this forum would I expect, give a person who had been assaulted medical care, attempt to protect a woman from rape and give succour to those who need it.

State supported/concealed physical and mental abuse of the weakest minorities is the stamp of the worst totalitarian regimes. I fear this is happening under the guise of ‘operational security’ right now. Concentrating on the higher policy issues is fine but we shouldn’t ever endorse calculated and systemic cruelty to people by our governments.

Fixed the garbled bits, shouldn’t be having breakfast and two conversations while writing

John Hargreaves 11:44 am 01 Jan 15

So let me get this right. You righties say that well, we can’t find them so OK . It costs too much to do a man hunt. Good one that. Compare that against the 14,000 arrivals of alum seekers at its height. And by you numbers we have 30,000 of these people seeking help in Australia at the moment.

So 30,000 people seeking assistance from persecution against 400,000 over stayers who are here because they can abscond and no-one is going to be serious about kicking them out. having a 3 year ban on visas once a holiday or business visa expires is some threat!

If I was king of the world, I would open our hearts to those who run from death, who run from torture, who risk their lives and that of their kids. I would spend more on the checking of asylum claims and less on sending the Border Patrols after them.

AND… I would legislate that if a visa is overstayed for other than humanitarian reasons, it would mean no future visas at all. and I would insist that this information be advised to travellers at the point of airline/ship bookings and on the carriers themselves. You get advised of the consequences of importing drugs and fruit, why not the consequences of overstaying a visa.

But I’m not the immigration guru. Dutton is and his priority is not the 400,000 over stayers, it is the miniscule number of “bikers” and criminals who come to our shores with malice aforethought! I feel so safe now!

This guy is just creating something else for us to be scared of. Where are the figures of thugs coming into Australia in such numbers as should warrant being on the top of the “hit list”?

rosscoact 10:39 am 01 Jan 15

justin heywood said :

rosscoact said :

It’s obvious you are in the minority here John.

Compassion and the capacity for independent considered thought are both in short supply, at least for the rusted on minority…..

Glad you joined in there roosso.

You see a lot of people make claims to the high moral ground without actually proposing a solution to illegal immigration. I just want to know what the solution is – me and the rest of the world actually.

Because a workable solution is so rarely proposed by critics of the current system, some might think that claiming the high moral ground is entirely the point, but I’m unsure.

Obviously on-shore processing and ‘release into the community’ just results in a flotilla of leaky boats and more misery and deaths, so that’s out. Obviously. If we are actually talking about being compassionate.

So lease give us simple people some guidance to the higher path. What would you do?

Justin, certainly a vexed issue and no simple answers. It seems to be getting more complicated as policy shifts in other countries affect the actions of refugees and the people who profit off them.

It’s not the policy intention that bothers me. Well I should say, that it doesn’t bother me as much as it used to. It is the heartless cruelty that is applied to vulnerable people. Every person and organisation, who isn’t paid by the present government or who has a ulterior motive eg IPA and News Corp, and has first hand knowledge of the conditions in which people are detained offshore, decries the abuse in which they arrive.

Keeping children in detention for extended periods (and both sides of politics are guilty of this) is abhorrent and frankly disgusting. Handing over people who are seeking asylum to the very regime from which they are escaping is almost beyond comprehension.

The high moral ground is easy to take when you would, because it is morally right, protect a person you are responsible for while you are in their care. You and everyone else on this forum would I expect, give a person who had been assaulted medical care, attempt to protect a woman from rape and give succour to those who need it.

State supported/concealed physical and mental abuse of the weakest minorities is the stamp of the worst totalitarian regimes. I fear this is happening under the guise of ‘operational security’ right now. Concentrating on the higher policy issues is fine but we shouldn’t ever endorse calculated and systemic cruelty to people by our governments.

Postalgeek 3:54 pm 31 Dec 14

dungfungus said :

Postalgeek said :

dungfungus said :

There are probably about 400,000 visa over-stayers in Australia at any one time. When they are detected and deported or decide to go home they are refused re-entry.

Where does the 400,000 figure come from?

And just to add detail on your behalf, people who overstay their visa for more than 28 days are subject to an exclusion period that prevents them from being granted a temporary visa for three years.

Actually, the figure was only 394,478 but respecting your need for the “exact” details I concede I exaggerated a bit just as I did with the statement that visa overstayers would not be allowed to return to Australia. Next time I will give you links to everything so you can examine it until the cows come home.
The information came from someone who used to track them down.

Links would be great. Many thanks.

justin heywood 12:42 pm 31 Dec 14

rosscoact said :

It’s obvious you are in the minority here John.

Compassion and the capacity for independent considered thought are both in short supply, at least for the rusted on minority…..

Glad you joined in there roosso.

You see a lot of people make claims to the high moral ground without actually proposing a solution to illegal immigration. I just want to know what the solution is – me and the rest of the world actually.

Because a workable solution is so rarely proposed by critics of the current system, some might think that claiming the high moral ground is entirely the point, but I’m unsure.

Obviously on-shore processing and ‘release into the community’ just results in a flotilla of leaky boats and more misery and deaths, so that’s out. Obviously. If we are actually talking about being compassionate.

So lease give us simple people some guidance to the higher path. What would you do?

chewy14 12:10 pm 31 Dec 14

dungfungus said :

Postalgeek said :

dungfungus said :

There are probably about 400,000 visa over-stayers in Australia at any one time. When they are detected and deported or decide to go home they are refused re-entry.

Where does the 400,000 figure come from?

And just to add detail on your behalf, people who overstay their visa for more than 28 days are subject to an exclusion period that prevents them from being granted a temporary visa for three years.

Actually, the figure was only 394,478 but respecting your need for the “exact” details I concede I exaggerated a bit just as I did with the statement that visa overstayers would not be allowed to return to Australia. Next time I will give you links to everything so you can examine it until the cows come home.
The information came from someone who used to track them down.

Yes, I would like you to post the links thanks. The information linked previously shows the department’s estimate for visa overstayers in the country was approximately 54000 in 2010.

Would be quite a jump to get to 400000 in four years, don’t you think?

rosscoact 11:47 am 31 Dec 14

It’s obvious you are in the minority here John.

Compassion and the capacity for independent considered thought are both in short supply, at least for the rusted on minority. Wait until 2015 when the cruelty ramps up and the most vulnerable in our community are targeted for ‘special treatment’.

dungfungus 8:27 am 31 Dec 14

Postalgeek said :

dungfungus said :

There are probably about 400,000 visa over-stayers in Australia at any one time. When they are detected and deported or decide to go home they are refused re-entry.

Where does the 400,000 figure come from?

And just to add detail on your behalf, people who overstay their visa for more than 28 days are subject to an exclusion period that prevents them from being granted a temporary visa for three years.

Actually, the figure was only 394,478 but respecting your need for the “exact” details I concede I exaggerated a bit just as I did with the statement that visa overstayers would not be allowed to return to Australia. Next time I will give you links to everything so you can examine it until the cows come home.
The information came from someone who used to track them down.

shauno 2:31 am 31 Dec 14

I cant believe we have this debate going one again here. Overstaying a visa and arriving illegally by boat are completely different issues. The people smuggling can be and has been stopped by successful policies by the Howard government and yet again by the current LNP. Where as people who come here by Visa we know exactly who they are and they choose to overstay nothing you can do about that and you cant just initiate a man hunt for every one that overstays so thats just one thing we have to live with. They usually get found eventually.

It seems to be some sort of trendy thing for those of the left to associate with and they like to seem like they are morally superior. But that compassion has resulted in 1000’s of deaths at sea and 30,000 people including children in detention when at the end of the Howard years it was less than 10 illegal maritime arrival people in detention. And it ended up costing over a $10 billion it was an utter disaster.

We now have the situation under control people kids have left detention the detention centres are closing and gradually the people are leaving. By the next election a good % of them should be out of detention. They have also increased the genuine refugee intake which is what the Greens etc wanted and they have stopped the deaths at sea.

Look at whats happening in Europe since Italy did what the Greens want and essentially opened the flood gates and stopped prosecuting illegal boat arrivals. 1000s of deaths at sea and social chaos in Europe as Italy allowed them all to arrive and move on to other countries in Europe. They have now stopped this though because it was a disaster. Basically it was a repeat on a much bigger scale to what happened here under Rudd Labor and totally predictable.

It seems like John Hargreaves is having is own Malcolm Fraser moment.

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