17 December 2010

Trying again! RiotACT V4

| Jazz
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[First filed: Dec 7, 2010 @ 0:17]

Riot Logo

If you’re reading this post and wondering ‘what the hell happened to RiotACT since yesterday’ then welcome to RiotACT’s 4th incarnation, where we change site skins almost as often as Google’s logo.

The version we you’re seeing now has come about due to the massive growth we’ve had over the past two years. Back on March 14 2008 when we introduced the previous version RiotACT was getting an average of 27,000 unique visitors a month. Roll forward to november 2010 and you all contributed to a number 155,754 unique visitors. What this has meant, mostly for johnboy is a huge increase in the number of comments and contributions from you lot, our readers. In the latter case its meant that much of the great content that’s been submitted we haven’t been able to run as the old format didn’t really support it.

In this version we’ve finally gotten around to giving ourselves a catchy logo, changed the look and feel of the homepage to a magazine style, predominately to allow us to run more content and made a few other tweaks to improve (we hope) usability.

With the exception of the homepage much of the site is still the same although it might look slightly different to fit in with the new theme. Rest assured that the underlying fundamentals of RiotACT haven’t changed. We’ll still be running content with local relevance, you’ll still be able to submit your articles and you’ll still be able to engage in discussion on those issues, convincing your fellow Canberran’s and onlookers to your point of view.

Over the next few days I’ll be posting some additional articles on each of the new features and the changes that have been made, but for now I’ll cover off a few features on the homepage

Firstly it looks different. You can now log in using your email address OR RiotACT username. The grey bar at the top of the page also contains a drop down menu containing the FAQ, Registration details, contact an admin, and submit a story links.

We’ve introduced a change to the layout to enable Riot to cover more stories. There are more categories of content, and a current issues section where Johnboy will be covering hot topics. You’ll also notice that we’ve condensed full articles on the homepage to excerpts to let you skim over the content that isn’t relevant to your interests..

For premium members we’ve introduced a heap of goodies. Private mail, friends, blacklists, new comment flags and the ability to edit your own comments unless someone else has replied, favourite categories, and your own avatar. To check these out click on register at the grey bar at the top or get premium membership in the sidebar to the right. I’ll cover those in more detail in the next few days, but at cheaper than coffee and a bit of cake its definitely worth getting for the exclusive members only competition if not the ability to blacklist the commenters you find most annoying.

For now, knock yourselves out. The biggest issue on the last release was the amount of white space between comments, so while we’ve made changes here we’re well aware that we can’t please everyone. Flame away 🙂

Jazz

UPDATE: And we’ll just have another go at this after a bit more work.

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Admins:
This V4 as you keep trying to push on us may have benefits and features you love and think we will love if we made the effort, but its really hard to get past its crippling flaws (layout, accessability, clutter) and the immense bloat of the new version.
On balance, it would be a lie to call V4 an improvement.

Just Yuck!

What problems are we solving here with the “new” look?

It is cluttered, unintuitive and generally a regression.

Bring back that what we love and know.

A Noisy Noise Annoys An Oyster6:47 am 18 Dec 10

Oh no!! Like Freddie Krueger it’s back! I had hoped you’d followed the wishes of everybody and dumped V4 altogether. It’s just no bloody good. Could we have our unique Canberra website back, not this generic, hard to navigate monstrosity?

I hate it. It is crowded and unintuitive. The old version was clean and user friendly. Change for the sake of change is something I really can’t stand – what was wrong with the old RiotAct?

Holden Caulfield12:06 pm 13 Dec 10

Any progress? I’m looking forward to using some of the new functionality 🙂

+1

Any progress? I’m looking forward to using some of the new functionality 🙂

not far off now.. prob have another go at it this weekend

colourful sydney racing identity9:00 am 09 Dec 10

housebound said :

Can we have the latest posts column (or should that be latest comments with the parent posts column) back in the meantime, please? It was my main way of navigating the site.

Me too – please, please bring them back

Pommy bastard said :

Pommy bastard said :

Latest posts column was very useful on the old site, in fact it was the prime navigator for me.

Me too – please, please bring them back

Yep, definitely miss the latest posts column.

please, please, please for the love all that is holy, bring it back. You are making baby jesus cry.

Me too – please, please bring them back

Pommy bastard said :

Pommy bastard said :

Latest posts column was very useful on the old site, in fact it was the prime navigator for me.

Me too – please, please bring them back

Yep, definitely miss the latest posts column.

Pommy bastard7:28 pm 08 Dec 10

Still no joy? 🙁 I’m heartbroken…

colourful sydney racing identity said :

Pommy bastard said :

Latest posts column was very useful on the old site, in fact it was the prime navigator for me.

Me too – please, please bring them back

Pommy bastard said :

Latest posts column was very useful on the old site, in fact it was the prime navigator for me.

Me too – please, please bring them back

It took five clicks to return to this post from the front page. I concur with other requests, bring back the latest posts column.

colourful sydney racing identity2:26 pm 08 Dec 10

Pommy bastard said :

Latest posts column was very useful on the old site, in fact it was the prime navigator for me.

Me too – please, please bring them back

i think the format peaked with the version prior to v3, the last of the v2. The new format which i note has been banished, was far too busy. the fonts were too small, and not enough ‘colour’. i dont like the new logo either. and please – get rid of flash. One major thing i dont like about v3 or v4 is the constant ‘push’ of data and the constant html refreshing, its not necessary and it chews bandwidth.

i know renewal and trying new concepts to remain relevant and fresh is important – but please dont sacrifice access to content for faddish styles. what sort of ra would it be if the ct website was more accessible and user friendly than yours.

Confused 🙁 I seem to be back on the V3 version. Is this just me?

Can we have the latest posts column (or should that be latest comments with the parent posts column) back in the meantime, please? It was my main way of navigating the site.

its now (or at least will be) directly below the recent articles area.

the auto-quoting is just a conflict with v3 of the theme and the updates to all the plugins we did as part of the v4 release.

Pommy bastard8:17 am 08 Dec 10

Pommy bastard said :

Latest posts column was very useful on the old site, in fact it was the prime navigator for me.

Its still there PB, just in a different location than it was previously.

Ok, can I get a clue as to where it is now?

Ohm and why does the site now automatically quote the last post on each page?

somewhere_between_bundah_and_goulburn11:13 pm 07 Dec 10

I was unable to get into the posts until tonight (when the site returned to normal). Links either went to 404, or bad database error

Oh we’ve done all sorts of broken in the last 24 hours.

I suppose it’s one way to get people to write on here lol

Was it especially broken this morning around 8?, I only saw the header and drop menu
That was Firefox 3.6. IE at work was merely slow/erratic.

Oh we’ve done all sorts of broken in the last 24 hours.

Pommy bastard said :

Latest posts column was very useful on the old site, in fact it was the prime navigator for me.

Its still there PB, just in a different location than it was previously

Solidarity said :

That new version was a visual attack, way too many items, articals annoying to navigate to, etc.

If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.

There is actually less items per page and plenty of things that aren’t broken get fixed. Some call it innovation.

Waiting For Godot said :

Another thing I particularly dislike is the “Report this post” button on every comment.

It was always there. individual comments get removed if a moderator deems them inappropriate. serial offenders get banned.

rosebud said :

I don’t like the flashing images/pictures as it detracts from the stories

Happy to have the next 10,000 readers subscribe as members then we wont have to have ads at all 🙂

I think you’re on the right track with the redesign, not there yet, but an improvement.
The v3 design does look a bit dated, feels kinda old fashioned.
I liked some bits of v4.
Agree with everyone that doesn’t like the tag cloud and that fonts are too small – for that you could increase it slightly, but also add a + – fontsize option with the ability to store that user choice.
I wasn’t sure about the 2 column layout. Think it’s worth pursuing, but with some design tweaks to improve it.
I think the main thing is to take into account all feedback, but not be ruled by them. You can’t always please everyone.

Growling Ferret7:42 pm 07 Dec 10

I’m all for whatever uses the least bandwidth. The office has a new internet usage policy and any high download sites will be terminated from my daily viewing. By high use, we have a 20mb a day limit on all interwebs content, so if Riotact takes 2meg per page, my morning coffee and lunchbreak aint going to be entertaining…

sorry, very much part of the ‘if it aint broke” brigade here, much prefer the earlier version that has been reverted to.

georgesgenitals6:48 pm 07 Dec 10

georgesgenitals said :

Jungle Jim said :

Latest posts column was very useful on the old site, in fact it was the prime navigator for me.

Absolutely same here!

Got to admit, I much prefer V3.

Me too. Regardless of where you land, please keep that feature.

Jungle Jim said :

Latest posts column was very useful on the old site, in fact it was the prime navigator for me.

Absolutely same here!

Got to admit, I much prefer V3.

Me too. Regardless of where you land, please keep that feature.

And why is this coming up as ‘moderated’, when it clearly isn’t?

georgesgenitals6:47 pm 07 Dec 10

Jungle Jim said :

Latest posts column was very useful on the old site, in fact it was the prime navigator for me.

Absolutely same here!

Got to admit, I much prefer V3.

Me too. Regardless of where you land, please keep that feature.

Keep at it!

Cut overs are always a pain in the arse – especially when users are on a well.

I’ll bugger off and see where you’ve got to tomorrow (I used to find red wine helps while trying to do these sort of things … but not too much)

There’s an old saying in the IT game – that when organisations change the look of their software (read “site”) simply because they can, rather than because it makes things better, you’re in real trouble.

Don’t get me wrong – improvement is good – but you really need to ask yourself “what problem are we trying to solve” and, once you’ve identified that, “what’s the best way to solve it?” If the answer to the first question is “nothing”, don’t change anything. If you’ve identified a problem and think you’ve found the best way to solve it, check with the users and make the changes incremental.

It’s always tempting to change stuff because something new looks cool and froody, but it’s very rare that it pleases the users. For better or worse, users get used to a certain way of doing things and they get upset when those things change without obvious benefit. Classic example: the universally-despised “ribbon” in Mickeyshaft Office.

Users will generally embrace real improvements in functionality and won’t be concerned about having to learn new ways to do things; but the improvements have to be real and demonstrable.

georgesgenitals6:01 pm 07 Dec 10

It’s now some bizarre combination of several views.

Seriously, the old view was OK, the previous one even better.

I don’t like the flashing images/pictures as it detracts from the stories

After giving up today because of how slow it all was, I am happy to see the old site return, BUT now the amount of space taken up by each full post on the home page is really noticeable and annoying. The old version is much easier to read for some of us oldies.

The two-column thing would have taken a while to get used to, but eventually we would have and it did help keep stoies current. The only thing I would suggest is to find someone good on typography and ask them for some advice on how to tweak. Better use of fonts, spacing etc possibly would solve some of the main issues people were complaining about.

It’s probably an age thing – us oldies don’t really like the clutter and small fonts preferred by the young ‘uns. Sometimes small fonts and clutter = unreadable.

Comment quoting is having issues under v3(revert), no original porter names are being displayed, as block parentheses are showing as plaintext where previously wordpress recognised it as functional code
Some comments made under v4 are also not populating a quote comment = var when displayed under v3(revert) in addition to displaying plaintext.
And your report abusive comment button triggers errors.

Waiting For Godot4:43 pm 07 Dec 10

OMG!!!! What happened??? When I visited the site this morning I thought I’d reached one of those generic cybersquatter sites put up by host providers when someone has registered a domain but not put up a site yet. Also I hate the new logo, especially the name RIOTACT being all in upper case. After ten years of branding the site RiotACT you throw that all away. There are many sites using the name, and the style RiotACT was a distinguishing factor which identified it with Canberra and the ACT. Also the dropping of the iconic Canberra pic with the logo has contributed to the impression that the site is now generic and disconnected with Canberra.

Another thing I particularly dislike is the “Report this post” button on every comment. One of the good things we like about the site is its larrikin nature and the forthrightness and outspokenness of many posts. If anybody was offended by a post the remedy up till now was to post a reply underneath. Now with this button on every post people will simply report the post if offended. And what will happen if a post is reported? Will the author be blocked from the site? Will their ISP address be blacklisted? People simply won’t post outspoken comments anymore for fear of being reported.

All in all, the redesign is a total shocker. I just hope it was an early April Fools Day joke and that this terrible mistake will be scrubbed and the good old RiotACT we all know and love will be making a quick return.

James-T-Kirk4:34 pm 07 Dec 10

Oh – and thanks for your efforts – the new look and feel was really refreshing

Latest posts column was very useful on the old site, in fact it was the prime navigator for me.

Absolutely same here!

That new version was a visual attack, way too many items, articals annoying to navigate to, etc.

If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.

James-T-Kirk4:25 pm 07 Dec 10

(sigh) – right when I was figuring out how to inject 100,000 Dislike entries for some posts…..

Next time then.

James-T-Kirk4:24 pm 07 Dec 10

(sigh) – right when I was figuring out how to inject 100,000 Dislike entries for some posts…..

Next time then.

georgesgenitals4:22 pm 07 Dec 10

OK, so the readers who actually managed to make it on to the site today will have noticed that we’ve temporarily reverted to the old one. Something in the new one was causing more load than a joel monaghan story.

Other than addressing the performance issues that have been terrorising the site today we’ll also be picking up on a number of the comments to make some tweeks.

Stay tuned.

Thanks, and well done.

Pommy bastard4:19 pm 07 Dec 10

Latest posts column was very useful on the old site, in fact it was the prime navigator for me.

OK, so the readers who actually managed to make it on to the site today will have noticed that we’ve temporarily reverted to the old one. Something in the new one was causing more load than a joel monaghan story.

Other than addressing the performance issues that have been terrorising the site today we’ll also be picking up on a number of the comments to make some tweeks.

Stay tuned.

georgesgenitals4:01 pm 07 Dec 10

Deref said :

Gods – make it stop – please!

I can put up with the slowness, but 9 times out of 10 it simply falls over and reports a database error.

Seriously – if it’s not broke, DON’T FIX IT!

+1. The site is practically unusable at the moment.

Gods – make it stop – please!

I can put up with the slowness, but 9 times out of 10 it simply falls over and reports a database error.

Seriously – if it’s not broke, DON’T FIX IT!

I join the queue in suggesting the tag cloud is a bit useless. Tag clouds in general are a bit ineffective, but Cumulus takes the cake.

Yellow text on white background = bad for so many reasons.

Other than those two minor gripes and some understandable technical issues in the early stages, I don’t mind the changes.

I wonder if it will do anything to address the fact that as soon as an article drops off the front page or two it just about dies.

And why does the partners bit at bottom only ever link to the top of current page?
Dead links discovered so far:Sitemap, Quick Links=>My RiotACT, Quick Links=>Members (ie: http://the-riotact.com/directory/)…

Once your database connection works out, feel like having some injection testing. 🙂

Overall much cleaner, but agree that the comments font needs to be either increased in size or bolded. Also, there is a lot of wasted space in each comment box, which could be reduced to fit more comments on the page.

Some of the features people dislike can be eliminated by using Firefox + AdBlock Plus. This may also help with loading speeds. It is working fine for me – in fact it is a bit faster than V3.

Well done for getting most of it up and running first go!

Ideas: Put a link to the Prev\1\2\Next at the top of page as well as at bottom.
Fix up the Comment box having “Not You? Logout” link.
Either tell me who I’m potentially about to comment as, or change the question mark to an exclamation point. ie: Not you! Logout“.

Oh, and please kill the tag cloud.

Sidebar recent comment links to individual comments failfor multiple-page threads (ie:Pg2, Pg3, whayever), so you never get taken direct to a comment if it has comment-page-X value.
Also, your comments per page has dropped from 50 to 30 in the carryover.
Sure, its great for your ad views and pageviews, but less usable for your readers.

ainsliebraddon1:32 pm 07 Dec 10

Overall pretty good, but really really slow, often dropping out. The comments font are tiny. The two column lay out – not sure what the date order is – do I go right to left across two columns, or top to bottom on the left column, then top to bottom on the right?

Love the improvement. Makes the site look a lot more pro.

Get rid of the tag cloud, there’s a search bar at the top which is enough for most people. (try logging tag cloud click vs search bar maybe if you want to see what people are using?)

Comment text is too small, using 24″ LCD with 1920×1200 res.
Not sure about the font choice for the new header. It reads like ‘RIO TACT’ due to the white space between O and T.

New site has given a real reason to go premium too, good work. 🙂

Lilli said :

Hmm, I would be lying if I said I didn’t have a reaction of sorts on first loading RA today, although it has grown on me over the last hour or so.

I like the ‘Related Content’ box – I noticed this works particularly well when viewing regular features such as the Police Wraps. To be honest, I had never even seen this functionality in the previous design, so at least the new design is making me notice things!

What does the ‘Top Rioters’ tab indicate? I like the tabbed design of this section too – more info in less real estate.

related content is a new feature so not entirely suprised you didnt notice it before. it picks stories based on keyword density, tags, category and title

Top Rioters is the most active user over the last 30 days

Mathman said :

Let me be the first to say…..yuck!

not quite sure what you were expecting when you hit the site in the middle of a cutover?

Comment ratings plugin seems to have been causing some issues so we’ve turned it off for now

I’m liking the new site more as I get used to it. My biggest gripe is probably the lack of contrast between the yellow comments number and the white background on the main page.

I’m also wondering why I’m a “Top Rioter”… is that number my postcount for the last month or something similar?

Hopefully all the ‘Error 500 – Database Error’ stuff is only temporary…the site’s been very unstable so far, but teething problems are to be expected I guess.

Can you please get rid of the yellow text though? Yellow text on a white background just doesn’t work at all, it’s damn hard to read!

Hmm, I would be lying if I said I didn’t have a reaction of sorts on first loading RA today, although it has grown on me over the last hour or so.

I like the ‘Related Content’ box – I noticed this works particularly well when viewing regular features such as the Police Wraps. To be honest, I had never even seen this functionality in the previous design, so at least the new design is making me notice things!

What does the ‘Top Rioters’ tab indicate? I like the tabbed design of this section too – more info in less real estate.

Its beautiful!

DarkLadyWolfMother11:13 am 07 Dec 10

The new layout isn’t too bad. The new logo though … it’s so…Wordpress like.

StrangeAttractor10:54 am 07 Dec 10

Never thought I’d need to get flashblock for the-riotact. Slideshow at the top is Ok, tag cloud, useless and slows the site down considerably.

What’s the article ordering pattern on the columns?

| 1 | 2 |
| 3 | 4 |

Or something different? And I’d prefer a bit more of the article be visible on the front page.

I was going to rave about how ugly the site looks now, but as people say, in a week or so I’ll forget about it, as long as the articles are easy to get to, and laid out logically, I’ll manage.

georgesgenitals said :

Like/Dislike not working reliably.

Also, site is slow as hell, probably from trying to push too much down the pipe…

Yeah, I’m finsing it is slow, but that may be my ISP.

new design – bit like Canberra – grey! well captured

Font is a touch small

and the RSS feed link ends up at a broken db connection page

nice work

Mathman said :

Why are the fonts so BIG

Why is the font size for comments so SMALL?

Some more constructive criticism (yes, I dislike the new format – sorry!):

1) The front page is feels too busy/loaded with “stuff”.
2) Following from 1, the 2 column article layout is too small. A compromise could be a single column like the old site, but with ‘shorter’ content boxes?
3) Animations can be annoying when reading, like the Tag cloud. Having a show/hide option for the tag cloud would be good.

Last but not least, “less is more” 🙂

georgesgenitals10:26 am 07 Dec 10

Like/Dislike not working reliably.

Also, site is slow as hell, probably from trying to push too much down the pipe…

The font size\content to claimed space per comment\context ratio is also way out.
(This wouldn’t pass most of our UAT processes here, who did your prelim QA???)

Holden Caulfield10:23 am 07 Dec 10

I don’t mind it, really. The two column recent articles on the home page will take a bit of getting used to, but that’s by the by. Same applies to most of the cosmetic changes, give it a week or two and we’ll have forgotten what the old site was like.

I agree the tag cloud is a bit naff, but I never use those anyway, so have never placed any value in them.

Otherwise, thanks for the improvements and hopefully I won’t keep getting “Error establishing database connection” messages for too much longer.

Editing doesn’t seem to work for me
Oh, and linking to profiles seems to be powerfully b0rked.
(and what does it take to be a “top rioter”, and what do the numbers mean?)

Arrrghhhh Hideous!!

Actually, on second glance, not that bad. I will certainly be interested in how it rolls then the shake-down-tune-up-teething-problems are all resolved. Question from first impression – will there be a mobile version of the website? Cause I suspect my nokia won’t love all the new bells and whistles.

James-T-Kirk10:04 am 07 Dec 10

Hey guys,

The NBN isn’t here yet! This site is soooooooo heavy that it takes ages to load.

Hang off a couple of years till we all have 100Gbs to the home before you do this agin.

Received a HTTP 500 Internal Server Error on first login, and every subsequent attempt to log in.
Like\Dislike buttons do no function under IE7 v7.0.57303.13

Why keep tag clouds? They were ineffective when introduced, and have stayed that way. 😐

Also, your page file size is huge, making you less mobile accessible. Any chance there is a barebones http://m.riotact.com site we can use?

georgesgenitals9:57 am 07 Dec 10

I don’t like it. Comments font way too small, and way too much other junk clogging up the screen. Personally, I much preferred the second format you had (ie the one before the last one). With these last two changes in format the site has become harder to read and navigate, and less fun.

Sorry guys, but this is not progress.

Not another blog renovation post. Errrr.

I like it – crisp, clean, professional.

– From a PR professional viewpoint, the new look will help The RiotAct gain ‘credibility traction’ against other media.
– From a regular reader’s viewpoint, the magazine-style layout gives more story options onto the page, more for me to read without (almost) endless scrolling.
– And from someone who runs several WP sites… Congratulations, it’s a big change and it seems to have gone quite smoothly from our end out in the interwebs.

🙂

Just a little constructive criticism of my own:

1:) I like the play slider at the top (like off ABC, SMH etc), but having the recent articles split into two columns makes it impossible to read the body of an article, and hence makes skimming the page longer.

2:) The ‘WP-Cumulus’ (the charcoal and white swirling link thing) on the lower right looks snazzy but functionally I think it leaves a lot to be desired. Just delete it entirely imo. Especially since you’ve got the same funcationality running along the top of the page anyway.

3:) I like the calender on the lower right with the ‘What’s On’ functionality. I’d prefer to have it in the top right of the site, but understand that area is prime real estate.

4:) With the ‘Get Premium Membership’ there should be a link next to it explaining what you get for your money. Which brings me to point number 5.

5:) I understand why advertising needs to be as prominent as it is, but does a premium membership get rid of the advertisements on the site whilst logged in as one? If it does, excellent. If not, perhaps something to think about as an incentive to get subscribers.

Overall some good changes, but I think the look is too cluttered and overly complex. My biggest gripe is having the recent articles split into two columns. That said, great job on looking to continually improve the page. Love it or hate it, at least you’re making a go of it.

How can I be a prenium member without giving you my contact/credit card details? where do I send the envelopes full of cash?

I love it. Don’t be disheartened by the *dislikes* because there will undoubtedly be many people who can’t cope with change! I really love that you are able to *like* or *dislike* comments of other readers.
That lets people still have a say on something without having to put in a comment.

images of Canberra on the right are broken on this page.

Nice to see it go live. *awaits the barrage of negative feedback*

Change happens, people.

Current issues isnt quite working yet.. damn environmental variables.

let us know if you find anything else thats obviously broken. you’ll all give the site a significantly more thorough testing in the first hour just by using as you normally do that we’re able to do in a month of testing.

should have mentioned that there is also a bit of extra config work going on behind the scenes, bare with us.

Like the “Like” buttons

Blacklisting? Hey have I annoyed anyone? Huzzah!

provocative new format… i guess I will get used to it. The default text size is a little small though.

I hate it, the text hurts my eyes and it chugs my computer when I try to scroll.

creative_canberran2:30 am 07 Dec 10

The new design on a whole though is absolutely awesome. Much more just one click away, feels far more refined and page loads even seem quicker. Nice work guys!

Looks good. Not all the images are showing up for me but I suspect that may be a problem with the computer and internet connection at my end.

Let me be the first to say…..yuck!

Why are the fonts so BIG – I can only see recent recent comments from three stories before they scroll off the end. Each page takes up a minimum 4 screen fulls of space (ie 4 page downs from top to bottom) because the side bar is so long.

The fancy tag cloud may look pretty but it completely impractical to use. It is almost impossible to click on a tag because they want to run away from your mouse.

What has happened to the pictures?

And what is that weird box thing at the top of the front page that keeps showing me stories I’ve already seen? The story summaries are too short to given much of an indication of what the story is about. With the old site I could scan down the page reading the stories I was interested in. Now I have to click on each story just to find out what it is about.

Progress? I think I’ll head over to the Canberra Causerie.

Holden Caulfield12:36 am 07 Dec 10

And now for the teething problems… hopefully there won’t be too many!

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