The Practice of the Art of Miserablism

justin heywood said :

This may come as a shock to you John, but there are people in this town who clean toilets for about $8.00 an hour, or less. Who, for example, do you think cleans the toilets at fast food joints? Management?

I”ve always been solidly middle class, but I cleaned toilets while studying, as have my kids, who both worked in fast food. The fact that you regard your time cleaning toilets as proof of your humble background says more about you than you think.

Anyone who cleans for $8 an hour is being exploited and anyone who works for $8 an hour is being exploited. It is just wrong!

chewy14 said :

Hi John,
Can you post a link or some evidence that Abetz and Hockey are personally ripping up this SLA?

I’d like a bit more information.

Abetz is putting forward the legislation because he is the relevant Minister in line with the Cabinet financial reform agenda driven by Hockey

milkman said :

John Hargreaves Ex MLA said :

dungfungus said :

watto23 said :

wow what a bunch of narrow minded people who have responded. Don’t come complaining when crime rates are high because the poorest wages are so low, people resort to theft and armed robbery. Or what happens when people do as you say and decide to not clean anymore, and we can’t find anyone to do that job. I guess we can force the disabled to do it, because there is no way we’ll let immigrants in to take our jobs, even the ones no one want.
Right now I don’t think anyone should have a pay cut, but we should also not be taking pay rises either, yet plenty of selfish, usually well off people have no issue with being paid more. Usually it has nothing to do with working harder either, but who you were born to and who you know.
Its all fine until the silver spoon falls out of ones mouth and you realise how hard it is to find a job, once you’ve lost a good one.

dungfungus said :

Low thinking = low pay.
Get another job.

I should have spelt it out.
Why don’t you clean home toilets for $45 per hour? You have confirmed what the rate is. Please don’t use that “who you were born to and who you know” nonsense with me either. The world doesn’t owe you a living. Try hard work for a change.
PS I have cleaned worse things than toilets.

Well, I am amazed. I’ve cleaned toilets as an office cleaner and I can’t think of a worse job than that so if you have cleaned worse than this, tell us all about it!

I can’t believe what I have read. It is Abetz/Hockey who are going to legislate this right away… what part about personal responsibility don’t they carry?

Perhaps instead of suggesting that PH cleaners don’t deserve the wages they earn, how about raising the rates payable to all cleaners.

Some at the rally spoke and said they felt that they were not valued, that they were treated like an underclass. Now, from the posts here I can see why.

When I had a little one, and not enough salary as a soldier to feed three, I worked as a cleaner at night and I am proud that I did.

I just can’t stomach someone on $300k plus engineering a 27% pay decrease for only 47 workers in the name of saving money! Talk about picking on the low paid! Don’t this abominable pair realise that a 27% cut in wages will affect families extremely badly for the saving of a pittance.

and to VYBerlinerV8, I say that these people don’t drive V8s cos they can only afford to watch people like you do it!

It was said that second jobs are a reality for many people. it is but it shouldn’t be so and do you really think any of these people want to have two jobs, to be away from quality family time, to work from 7 in the morning to 11 at night 6 days a week? If you do, you’re on a different planet to me and thank God for that!

Serious question: are you a socialist?

I am a Life member of the Labor Party and believe that everyone should have the benefit of the beautiful country not only those who can afford it. I believe in free health, free education and free community safety. I believe in giving succour to refugees. If these make me a socialist, then so be it. I also want a better life for my kids and grandkids then I have had (and I started with nothing and am fine now), so again, if this makes me a socialist then so be it. But I prefer to be called just an ordinary bloke who cares about my fellow Aussie.

Grail said :

VYBerlinaV8_is_back said :

Grail said :

dungfungus said :

Low thinking = low pay.
Get another job.

So the limit to one’s earning capacity is only how high they set their targets, and not at all related to their skin colour, gender, education, skills or the city they live in?

Education, skills and the city they live in, sure.

When I was studying I worked a range of crappy jobs (as did many of my peers). And there were people of all colour, creed and gender working there too. Much like where I work now.

Do you deny that gender and skin colour have anything to do with being, say, a politician?

Do you deny that women are paid, on average, 18% less than men doing exactly the same work?

When you stopped doing cr#$py jobs, did you notice the blend of gender and ethnicity change?

I’ll answer this from my perspective,

I’d say there’s lots more important things to being a politician than gender or race. Like being a proficient liar, sucking up and general b*#tardry. If people of different races and gender are good at those things, they too can become a successful politician.

Women aren’t paid 18% less than men for doing the same job. Full time working women are paid 17% less than men on average across all industries. This figure doesn’t take into account job, field of employment, education, career breaks, hours worked etc.
What was your point? That on average people who work less in lower paying industries get paid less?

When I stopped doing cr*ppy jobs, I noticed there were less men as I had moved into a professional office environment from doing hard, manual outside labour.
I also noticed that there was a lot more cultural diversity in the office environment as we struggled to hire local professionals and often had to recruit from overseas.

dungfungus said :

“Well, I am amazed. I’ve cleaned toilets as an office cleaner and I can’t think of a worse job than that so if you have cleaned worse than this, tell us all about it!”

Try cleaning grease traps, blocked septic tanks, sheep dips with rotting sheep carcases at the bottom, cooking vats with dead rats in them for example.
Dirty toilets in an office are luxuries.

I cleaned a dirty butchery as a teenager. In summer the drain inserts would be moving when I removed them to clean them out. Grease traps are another nasty.

I agree – office toilets are nothing. Some bleach and a bit of a brush and wipe over and it’s done.

“Well, I am amazed. I’ve cleaned toilets as an office cleaner and I can’t think of a worse job than that so if you have cleaned worse than this, tell us all about it!”

Try cleaning grease traps, blocked septic tanks, sheep dips with rotting sheep carcases at the bottom, cooking vats with dead rats in them for example.
Dirty toilets in an office are luxuries.

wildturkeycanoe said :

bd84 said :

Nobody seems to care that cleaners just lost 27%, but IT contractors losing 7% through taxation caused such a stir that the government back-flipped. Goes to show how the system works…look after the wealthy, stuff the people who work harder to survive.

Sorry, got that last bit wrong, they haven’t back-flipped, but a lot of people aren’t happy nonetheless.

I disagree with bd84 – it’s not an unskilled job at all. For example, you need organisational skills, proper equipment and training on how to use it properly, an ability to work with others (clients) to accommodate their requirements (for example, our office cleaner works during the day and has to factor in room usage around when things can be cleaned), etc etc. And it’s actually hard physical work.
Pay poorly and you get poor cleaning from it not being humanly possible to get the required work done in the allocated hours. We are already noticing this in my office.
It would appear to me that people who think it is an unskilled job have probably never done any cleaning themselves. Or believe in fairies waving their magic wand, or Mary Poppins snapping her fingers.

bd84 said :

Perhaps you could organise them to be paid the equivalent of an EL1 salary for doing the cleaning. That would make it a fair and equitable system for everybody?

Keep increasing the minimum wages for unskilled work and the prices of everything else will rise to meet the cost of those wages. At some point it needs to stop. Why do workers cleaning the toilets for parliament deserve more compared to anywhere else? Feeling sorry for them isn’t a reason.

By this logic, you are saying that anyone doing a particular job should receive the same wage as everyone else doing the same job, thus creating a level playing field. In that case, if applied to all occupations, there would be no incentive to go and work in the mines because the same pay rate is given to someone working in a small country town. A project manager in the city gets the same salary as a manager on a farm. The guy serving chips at KFC should get the same as a waitress at a top notch hotel in the parliamentary triangle. That isn’t free enterprise, that is pushing communism.
Yes, there should be a minimum benchmark to avoid exploitation, but that isn’t what is going on here. The government is deleting an agreement that is in place, at disadvantage to the people working there. Imagine if this happened – anyone who is currently on an EBA or Individual Agreement suddenly has [when up for renewal] the entire agreement torn up and put back onto the state or federal award minimum. Wouldn’t you be upset if that happened? Wouldn’t you be concerned that the employer has the power to strip you of those wage increases you’ve earned over many years through negotiation and sacrifice? This is wage fixing, similar to petrol price fixing, but in reverse. If the government only pays the minimum, every other business will drop their wages similarly, thus creating this bare minimum.
Nobody seems to care that cleaners just lost 27%, but IT contractors losing 7% through taxation caused such a stir that the government back-flipped. Goes to show how the system works…look after the wealthy, stuff the people who work harder to survive.

Perhaps you could organise them to be paid the equivalent of an EL1 salary for doing the cleaning. That would make it a fair and equitable system for everybody?

Keep increasing the minimum wages for unskilled work and the prices of everything else will rise to meet the cost of those wages. At some point it needs to stop. Why do workers cleaning the toilets for parliament deserve more compared to anywhere else? Feeling sorry for them isn’t a reason.

We’ve all had bad low paid jobs, you work hard at many of them or work hard to get new skills. Sometimes you work hard to get the skills and end up getting a c#$p job anyway. Somebody needs to do the jobs and they will get paid the minimum wage to do it. Cleaning may be a hard job, but it’s an unskilled job and paid accordingly.

VYBerlinaV8_is_back said :

Grail said :

dungfungus said :

Low thinking = low pay.
Get another job.

So the limit to one’s earning capacity is only how high they set their targets, and not at all related to their skin colour, gender, education, skills or the city they live in?

Education, skills and the city they live in, sure.

When I was studying I worked a range of crappy jobs (as did many of my peers). And there were people of all colour, creed and gender working there too. Much like where I work now.

Do you deny that gender and skin colour have anything to do with being, say, a politician?

Do you deny that women are paid, on average, 18% less than men doing exactly the same work?

When you stopped doing cr#$py jobs, did you notice the blend of gender and ethnicity change?

wildturkeycanoe said :

It is in the news, just search around for “government cleaners face wage cuts” and you will see it is true and a result of cutting “red tape”.
Didn’t they just do this with our garbage collection people just recently, re-negotiate pay rates to much less? It’s happening again and I don’t think it will stop there. If the government can get away with it, big business will do it next and then small business too. Everyone beware, with unemployment rising there will hundreds of desperate people who will do your job for less money.
The next great depression is at our doorstep…thanks to Abbott and Costello.

OK,
So it seems they only actually got this pay rise in 2011 and under the new rules there will be no requirement for contracting companies to pay above award rates as it’s been since 2011.

Therefore the companies putting in bids for the work can quote whatever price they want at or above the minimum.

Isn’t this exactly what minimum wages are for? If the market has determined this work is worth only the award rate (or less), then workers will receive that award.

It seems the author’s complaint isn’t with Hockey or Abetz, it’s with the award rate set by the Fair Work Commission. Perhaps he should take it up with them?

This may come as a shock to you John, but there are people in this town who clean toilets for about $8.00 an hour, or less. Who, for example, do you think cleans the toilets at fast food joints? Management?

I”ve always been solidly middle class, but I cleaned toilets while studying, as have my kids, who both worked in fast food. The fact that you regard your time cleaning toilets as proof of your humble background says more about you than you think.

John Hargreaves Ex MLA said :

dungfungus said :

watto23 said :

wow what a bunch of narrow minded people who have responded. Don’t come complaining when crime rates are high because the poorest wages are so low, people resort to theft and armed robbery. Or what happens when people do as you say and decide to not clean anymore, and we can’t find anyone to do that job. I guess we can force the disabled to do it, because there is no way we’ll let immigrants in to take our jobs, even the ones no one want.
Right now I don’t think anyone should have a pay cut, but we should also not be taking pay rises either, yet plenty of selfish, usually well off people have no issue with being paid more. Usually it has nothing to do with working harder either, but who you were born to and who you know.
Its all fine until the silver spoon falls out of ones mouth and you realise how hard it is to find a job, once you’ve lost a good one.

dungfungus said :

Low thinking = low pay.
Get another job.

I should have spelt it out.
Why don’t you clean home toilets for $45 per hour? You have confirmed what the rate is. Please don’t use that “who you were born to and who you know” nonsense with me either. The world doesn’t owe you a living. Try hard work for a change.
PS I have cleaned worse things than toilets.

Well, I am amazed. I’ve cleaned toilets as an office cleaner and I can’t think of a worse job than that so if you have cleaned worse than this, tell us all about it!

I can’t believe what I have read. It is Abetz/Hockey who are going to legislate this right away… what part about personal responsibility don’t they carry?

Perhaps instead of suggesting that PH cleaners don’t deserve the wages they earn, how about raising the rates payable to all cleaners.

Some at the rally spoke and said they felt that they were not valued, that they were treated like an underclass. Now, from the posts here I can see why.

When I had a little one, and not enough salary as a soldier to feed three, I worked as a cleaner at night and I am proud that I did.

I just can’t stomach someone on $300k plus engineering a 27% pay decrease for only 47 workers in the name of saving money! Talk about picking on the low paid! Don’t this abominable pair realise that a 27% cut in wages will affect families extremely badly for the saving of a pittance.

and to VYBerlinerV8, I say that these people don’t drive V8s cos they can only afford to watch people like you do it!

It was said that second jobs are a reality for many people. it is but it shouldn’t be so and do you really think any of these people want to have two jobs, to be away from quality family time, to work from 7 in the morning to 11 at night 6 days a week? If you do, you’re on a different planet to me and thank God for that!

Serious question: are you a socialist?

It is in the news, just search around for “government cleaners face wage cuts” and you will see it is true and a result of cutting “red tape”.
Didn’t they just do this with our garbage collection people just recently, re-negotiate pay rates to much less? It’s happening again and I don’t think it will stop there. If the government can get away with it, big business will do it next and then small business too. Everyone beware, with unemployment rising there will hundreds of desperate people who will do your job for less money.
The next great depression is at our doorstep…thanks to Abbott and Costello.

Hi John,
Can you post a link or some evidence that Abetz and Hockey are personally ripping up this SLA?

I’d like a bit more information.

I agree with Mr Hargreaves on this one. It’s just mean, and for no good reason. I cleaned houses for a year or so when my children were young schoolies (it meant I could work school hours) and it’s damn hard physical work for not a great deal of money.
Surely it’s legal to pay more than ‘industry standard’ if that has been negotiated and signed? Can the union appeal?

dungfungus said :

watto23 said :

wow what a bunch of narrow minded people who have responded. Don’t come complaining when crime rates are high because the poorest wages are so low, people resort to theft and armed robbery. Or what happens when people do as you say and decide to not clean anymore, and we can’t find anyone to do that job. I guess we can force the disabled to do it, because there is no way we’ll let immigrants in to take our jobs, even the ones no one want.
Right now I don’t think anyone should have a pay cut, but we should also not be taking pay rises either, yet plenty of selfish, usually well off people have no issue with being paid more. Usually it has nothing to do with working harder either, but who you were born to and who you know.
Its all fine until the silver spoon falls out of ones mouth and you realise how hard it is to find a job, once you’ve lost a good one.

dungfungus said :

Low thinking = low pay.
Get another job.

I should have spelt it out.
Why don’t you clean home toilets for $45 per hour? You have confirmed what the rate is. Please don’t use that “who you were born to and who you know” nonsense with me either. The world doesn’t owe you a living. Try hard work for a change.
PS I have cleaned worse things than toilets.

Well, I am amazed. I’ve cleaned toilets as an office cleaner and I can’t think of a worse job than that so if you have cleaned worse than this, tell us all about it!

I can’t believe what I have read. It is Abetz/Hockey who are going to legislate this right away… what part about personal responsibility don’t they carry?

Perhaps instead of suggesting that PH cleaners don’t deserve the wages they earn, how about raising the rates payable to all cleaners.

Some at the rally spoke and said they felt that they were not valued, that they were treated like an underclass. Now, from the posts here I can see why.

When I had a little one, and not enough salary as a soldier to feed three, I worked as a cleaner at night and I am proud that I did.

I just can’t stomach someone on $300k plus engineering a 27% pay decrease for only 47 workers in the name of saving money! Talk about picking on the low paid! Don’t this abominable pair realise that a 27% cut in wages will affect families extremely badly for the saving of a pittance.

and to VYBerlinerV8, I say that these people don’t drive V8s cos they can only afford to watch people like you do it!

It was said that second jobs are a reality for many people. it is but it shouldn’t be so and do you really think any of these people want to have two jobs, to be away from quality family time, to work from 7 in the morning to 11 at night 6 days a week? If you do, you’re on a different planet to me and thank God for that!

We all have choices don’t we. Sometimes you have to think outside the square when it comes to employment options.

Grail said :

dungfungus said :

Low thinking = low pay.
Get another job.

So the limit to one’s earning capacity is only how high they set their targets, and not at all related to their skin colour, gender, education, skills or the city they live in?

I would have thought that would be obvious.

Grail said :

dungfungus said :

Low thinking = low pay.
Get another job.

So the limit to one’s earning capacity is only how high they set their targets, and not at all related to their skin colour, gender, education, skills or the city they live in?

Education, skills and the city they live in, sure.

When I was studying I worked a range of crappy jobs (as did many of my peers). And there were people of all colour, creed and gender working there too. Much like where I work now.

dungfungus said :

Low thinking = low pay.
Get another job.

So the limit to one’s earning capacity is only how high they set their targets, and not at all related to their skin colour, gender, education, skills or the city they live in?

watto23 said :

wow what a bunch of narrow minded people who have responded. Don’t come complaining when crime rates are high because the poorest wages are so low, people resort to theft and armed robbery. Or what happens when people do as you say and decide to not clean anymore, and we can’t find anyone to do that job. I guess we can force the disabled to do it, because there is no way we’ll let immigrants in to take our jobs, even the ones no one want.
Right now I don’t think anyone should have a pay cut, but we should also not be taking pay rises either, yet plenty of selfish, usually well off people have no issue with being paid more. Usually it has nothing to do with working harder either, but who you were born to and who you know.
Its all fine until the silver spoon falls out of ones mouth and you realise how hard it is to find a job, once you’ve lost a good one.

dungfungus said :

Low thinking = low pay.
Get another job.

I should have spelt it out.
Why don’t you clean home toilets for $45 per hour? You have confirmed what the rate is. Please don’t use that “who you were born to and who you know” nonsense with me either. The world doesn’t owe you a living. Try hard work for a change.
PS I have cleaned worse things than toilets.

wow what a bunch of narrow minded people who have responded. Don’t come complaining when crime rates are high because the poorest wages are so low, people resort to theft and armed robbery. Or what happens when people do as you say and decide to not clean anymore, and we can’t find anyone to do that job. I guess we can force the disabled to do it, because there is no way we’ll let immigrants in to take our jobs, even the ones no one want.
Right now I don’t think anyone should have a pay cut, but we should also not be taking pay rises either, yet plenty of selfish, usually well off people have no issue with being paid more. Usually it has nothing to do with working harder either, but who you were born to and who you know.
Its all fine until the silver spoon falls out of ones mouth and you realise how hard it is to find a job, once you’ve lost a good one.

dungfungus said :

Low thinking = low pay.
Get another job.

So it would have been better if the protesters had been haranguing Andrew Barr (http://www.canberratimes.com.au/act-news/andrew-barr-rebuffs-questions-about-how-strugglers-can-survive-rates-hike-20140616-zs9ei.html)? He’s using your argument.

“Get a better job” only works if there are better jobs to have – if you have the skills (language, professional, connections etc) to get the job and are “better” to beat off the other 99 applicants. Presumably the current set have security clearances – recall Bill Heffernan brought a (fake) pipebomb into the Building (http://www.canberratimes.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/liberal-senator-bill-heffernan-brandishes-pipe-bomb-to-make-point-on-parliament-security-20140526-38xwp.html) , not a cleaner.

It was the “Harvester” decision that made the minimum wage enough so that a worker could support his wife and standard number of kids (forgive the sexist language, Harvester (“Ex parte HV McKay”) was 1907, when sexism was de rigueur).

Why are you begrudging 88 cents an hour? The worker is worthy of his pay (Luke 10:7).

What a beat up.

Low thinking = low pay.
Get another job.

Second jobs are a reality for many people, so why should working in a big white building make you any different that the rest of the country? And would it not be a decisions of Parliamentary Services, not some grand plot by Hockey, Abetz et al to further stomp the rugged and b*ggered into the gutter with their big, nasty jackboots.