The State of Fear

John Hargreaves Ex MLA said :

The beauty of Canberra is that we have a diverse multicultural population who reject cultural violence in the main. We have only had a couple of really minor issues here. One of the ways this has been achieved is the absence of “communities of ethnic origin”. All ethnic groups are scattered across the city and this allows proper integration and the adoption of the nice bits of difference and allows people to be proud of their heritage without being criticised for it.

This is a very important point, but I’d like to just correct you – we don’t have a “multicultural population”, we have a population with a diverse range of ethnic origins. “Multiculturalism” is really the formation of non-integrated communities, which is the thing that has served Australia’s larger cities so very very poorly.

The reason a certain group of people feels targeted is the failure of multiculturalism: non-assimilation leads to conflict with the broader community’s values, hence the concept of “Team Australia”.

It’s worth remembering that very few countries signed up for a policy of non-integration, aka “multiculturalism”, and those countries have declared the idea a total failure:
Germany:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/oct/17/angela-merkel-german-multiculturalism-failed
England:
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-12371994
France:
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/05baf22e-356c-11e0-aa6c-00144feabdc0.html#axzz3BujS4GNR
Sweden:
http://rt.com/news/sweden-riots-multiculturalism-not-working-598/
Holland:
http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/2219/netherlands-abandons-multiculturalism#

At some stage (and Australia is always a couple of decades behind the first world, so it will be a few years yet) we will need a parliament of actual grown-ups who are prepared to articulate a rejection of the failed “multiculturalism” concept and implement policies that prevent communities that reject Australian society from establishing themselves in Australia.

dungfungus said :

justin heywood said :

So to summarise then,

– troubles in the middle east that have incredible complexity and a historical background stretching back decades, if not centuries, can all be attributed to America. Simple really. Apparently things were just dandy before the Americans got involved.

– troubles in Australia; well we don’t have any real problems in Australia – it’s all a beat up – but if we do, then obviously they are the fault of the conservatives (who only just got into power).

– We have learned from several of John’s previous posts about the dangers of Catholicism, but any fear of Islam is fabricated and used to manipulate the ignorant.

It seems that all we need to do is see sense and vote for John’s party, and everything will be be OK.

The book the OP refers to is total fiction which isn’t declared.
I would suggest to John that he read some factual reference books such as “The Geopolitics of Emotion” by Dominique Moisi.
On the subject of Saddam having WMDs being a lie, I am surprised how everyone seems to have forgotten that Saddam was building a super artillery cannon that could fire shells (as big as a VW Beetle” to anywhere in the Middle East.
He also fired SCUD missiles with chemical warheads into Tel Aviv did he not?
Next thing Johno will be saying 9/11 didn’t happen.

Clearly you do not understand what WMD means.

Btw, Iraq had zero of them and the western world illegally invaded and has caused the Islamic States success there.

Masquara said :

John Hargreaves Ex MLA said :

The beauty of Canberra is that we have a diverse multicultural population who reject cultural violence in the main. We have only had a couple of really minor issues here. One of the ways this has been achieved is the absence of “communities of ethnic origin”. All ethnic groups are scattered across the city and this allows proper integration and the adoption of the nice bits of difference and allows people to be proud of their heritage without being criticised for it.

For years we were told that terrorism was “our fault” because it was “disaffected poor people in the Middle East” and we should take account of their feelings. Guess what? University educated, affluent young Londoners are doing the beheadings. And don’t compare this with ethnic conflict at street level in Melbourne. I don’t think there is a record of any Australian Greeks beheading children in that context.

So what do you call the war crimes and atrocities (committed by both sides) during the Greek war of independence around a century ago ? Then there was the holocaust – gassing and burning of millions of ppl in Germany less than 70 years ago. Your selective take on history and lumping of all people ” in the Middle East” shows your ignorance of the geopolitical history of the region.

Nope I wasn’t aware of the other incidents mentioned. Still, none of them involved CHOGM so no memorial rubbish bins I’m guessing.

John Hargreaves Ex MLA said :

The beauty of Canberra is that we have a diverse multicultural population who reject cultural violence in the main. We have only had a couple of really minor issues here. One of the ways this has been achieved is the absence of “communities of ethnic origin”. All ethnic groups are scattered across the city and this allows proper integration and the adoption of the nice bits of difference and allows people to be proud of their heritage without being criticised for it.

For years we were told that terrorism was “our fault” because it was “disaffected poor people in the Middle East” and we should take account of their feelings. Guess what? University educated, affluent young Londoners are doing the beheadings. And don’t compare this with ethnic conflict at street level in Melbourne. I don’t think there is a record of any Australian Greeks beheading children in that context.

dungfungus said :

farnarkler said :

John, whilst Australia has been incident free (the Holsworthy Barracks plot didn’t eventuate) from terrorists (the Sydney Hilton bombing was a one-off), the authorities have been far more alert than pre 9/11. I don’t think that’s a bad thing, however, I do agree that the current government is far more verbose about it. Let the security services go about their business and keep it low key in speeches.

As previously stated, the Holsworthy Barracks plot was detected and foiled by ASIO.
You have neglected to mention other terrorist acts in Australia before 2001 which include:

1972 bombing of the Yugoslav General Trade Agency in Sydney;
1980 assassination of the Turkish Consul-General in Sydney;
1982 bombing of the Israeli Consulate and the Hakoah Club in Sydney
1986 bombing at the Turkish Consulate in Melbourne.

Any comment?

from your list the most recent was 1986 – 28 years ago. You might like to include the shoot of Arthur Calwell in 1961…

I don’t have a problem with being alert and proactive, I just have a problem with singling out a part of our community for over the top attention. Clearly you haven’t had experience of the tensions in Melbourne between the Greeks and the Turks in the 60’s, the issues with the Vietnamese in Footscray in the 1990s let alone other issues in Sydney and Brisbane.

The beauty of Canberra is that we have a diverse multicultural population who reject cultural violence in the main. We have only had a couple of really minor issues here. One of the ways this has been achieved is the absence of “communities of ethnic origin”. All ethnic groups are scattered across the city and this allows proper integration and the adoption of the nice bits of difference and allows people to be proud of their heritage without being criticised for it.

watto23 said :

dungfungus said :

As to who the enemies of Team Australia are John, I am sure you are not that naive.

Plenty of well educated Australians, don’t want to be part of Team Australia. In fact give me a mosque over a catholic church next door any day.

By all means prosecute and catch all the terrorists we can find, just don’t persecute people and call them terrorists when they are not.

Absolutely. Thank you for this. Succinct and spot on

John Hargreaves Ex MLA said :

I don’t say that Irvine was wrong in how he identified the real threat, I challenge his right to do so. It is the job of those we vote for and hold accountable. It should have been Abbott’s or Morrison’s call. I disagree with the notion that people such as Irvine should make statements about policy. And my views are shared. check the Canberra Times Op piece today.

It appears, from your posts, that you have a very narrow view as to who should and shouldn’t be allowed to make statements through the media re particular issues. Clearly that’s “old school” thinking and times have changed for the better IMO.

farnarkler said :

John, whilst Australia has been incident free (the Holsworthy Barracks plot didn’t eventuate) from terrorists (the Sydney Hilton bombing was a one-off), the authorities have been far more alert than pre 9/11. I don’t think that’s a bad thing, however, I do agree that the current government is far more verbose about it. Let the security services go about their business and keep it low key in speeches.

As previously stated, the Holsworthy Barracks plot was detected and foiled by ASIO.
You have neglected to mention other terrorist acts in Australia before 2001 which include:

1972 bombing of the Yugoslav General Trade Agency in Sydney;
1980 assassination of the Turkish Consul-General in Sydney;
1982 bombing of the Israeli Consulate and the Hakoah Club in Sydney
1986 bombing at the Turkish Consulate in Melbourne.

Any comment?

HenryBG said :

John Hargreaves Ex MLA said :

I don’t say that Irvine was wrong in how he identified the real threat, I challenge his right to do so. It is the job of those we vote for and hold accountable. It should have been Abbott’s or Morrison’s call. I disagree with the notion that people such as Irvine should make statements about policy.

The police give their opinions on crime, the ambos give theirs on some aspects of road safety, and the director of ASIO gives his opinion on national security.

All seems perfectly normal to me.

If you want to be concerned about Irvine, it would be far more profitable to analyse the use of supposedly terrorism-related legislation to carry out activities that are entirely unrelated to any aspect of counter-terror investigations or policing.
*This* is where the danger lies for all members of “Team Australia”.

What exactly are these activities you refer to?

John Hargreaves Ex MLA said :

I don’t say that Irvine was wrong in how he identified the real threat, I challenge his right to do so. It is the job of those we vote for and hold accountable. It should have been Abbott’s or Morrison’s call. I disagree with the notion that people such as Irvine should make statements about policy.

The police give their opinions on crime, the ambos give theirs on some aspects of road safety, and the director of ASIO gives his opinion on national security.

All seems perfectly normal to me.

If you want to be concerned about Irvine, it would be far more profitable to analyse the use of supposedly terrorism-related legislation to carry out activities that are entirely unrelated to any aspect of counter-terror investigations or policing.
*This* is where the danger lies for all members of “Team Australia”.

watto23 said :

……. give me a mosque over a catholic church next door any day.

Ah, the he bigotry that dare not speak its name.

Imagine if some outback Liberal senator said that on Q and A one night; that he was fine with a Christian church next door but didn’t want one of them mosques. He’d be torn apart. And rightly so.

But somehow the left seems to have rationalised itself into the view that Islam is not a problem while Catholicism is the real threat. The depth of the hypocrisy is mind-boggling.

You’ve got the Catholic church with a long history of sexual abuse and subsequent cover-ups. And we’ve got grinning kids holding up severed heads in the name of Islam. Yet one of these religions is OK?

I can only guess that this view has a political, not a rational basis. The great enemy of Islamic fundies is America and Israel, just as it is with much of the Left. And the Left’s hatred of the Catholic Abbott is well beyond rational.

But perhaps I’m being cynical. If Watto could expand a little on why he’d prefer a mosque over a Catholic Church, I’d be very interested.

John, whilst Australia has been incident free (the Holsworthy Barracks plot didn’t eventuate) from terrorists (the Sydney Hilton bombing was a one-off), the authorities have been far more alert than pre 9/11. I don’t think that’s a bad thing, however, I do agree that the current government is far more verbose about it. Let the security services go about their business and keep it low key in speeches.

watto23 said :

dungfungus said :

As to who the enemies of Team Australia are John, I am sure you are not that naive.

Plenty of well educated Australians, don’t want to be part of Team Australia. In fact give me a mosque over a catholic church next door any day.

By all means prosecute and catch all the terrorists we can find, just don’t persecute people and call them terrorists when they are not.

There are plenty of naive, well educated Australians also.
If we don’t take a stand against global Islamisation the situation will be like it was 800 years ago in Europe namely “mosques literally built over Christian churches”.

watto23 said :

Plenty of well educated Australians, don’t want to be part of Team Australia. In fact give me a mosque over a catholic church next door any day.

You say that, but the reality of Lakemba’s rapid demographic evolution gives the lie to your statement.

dungfungus said :

As to who the enemies of Team Australia are John, I am sure you are not that naive.

Plenty of well educated Australians, don’t want to be part of Team Australia. In fact give me a mosque over a catholic church next door any day.

By all means prosecute and catch all the terrorists we can find, just don’t persecute people and call them terrorists when they are not.

John Hargreaves Ex MLA said :

dungfungus said :

John Hargreaves Ex MLA said :

dungfungus said :

John Hargreaves Ex MLA said :

dungfungus said :

John Hargreaves Ex MLA said :

dungfungus said :

If you haven’t been watching the live presentation from the National Press Club by David Irvine, Director General of ASIO, then I suggest you follow it up and perhaps you could then give a re-assessment of your statement “we are being taken for a bit of a ride here”.
I look forward to your comments.

And you believed our non so secret super spy? It quacks like a duck

I’ll take that as you haven’t watched it yet.
Your federal Labor mates appointed David Irvine in 2009.
I guess groupthink was “we already have a Swan so why not a duck as well?”

I didn’t know that Super Spies were there to explain Government policy. I thought the pollies were there to do that.

If you watched the presentation you would understand that the existence of terrorism has nothing to do with “government policy”.

Apologist

Calling me an apologist in this instance is saying:
“You are correct about what David Irvine said and have facts to back it up but I won’t agree with you and tell you that because I want to pretend I’m right.”
BTW, I am a proud member of Team Australia.

I don’t say that Irvine was wrong in how he identified the real threat, I challenge his right to do so. It is the job of those we vote for and hold accountable. It should have been Abbott’s or Morrison’s call. I disagree with the notion that people such as Irvine should make statements about policy. And my views are shared. check the Canberra Times Op piece today.

And if you are on Team Australia, who is your opposition? Do you suggest that people who don’t share your position are against Team Australia? What a silly analogy for the PM to make.

I am glad you are now giving David Irvine the credit that is due to him but you are still accusing him wrongly of making policy announcements on behalf of the Federal government. Just because Frank Moorhouse may share your views doesn’t change anything.
I read Frank Moorhouse’s article in the comments section of the CT early this morning. Knowing a bit of Moorhouse’s background as an activist I wouldn’t be surprised if ASIO had a file on him so obviously he is not going to write anything to praise that organisation or their Director General.
I don’t think David Irvine is concerned by Moorhouse’s rant or the probing questions put to him by the predominately left media at the NPC on Wednesday.
Remember, ASIO detected and prevented a plan by Islamic jihadists to attack Australian Defence Force establishments near Liverpool in NSW a few years ago. How about you give them some credit for that, especially in mind of you own army service?.
As to who the enemies of Team Australia are John, I am sure you are not that naive.

John Hargreaves Ex MLA said :

dungfungus said :

John Hargreaves Ex MLA said :

dungfungus said :

John Hargreaves Ex MLA said :

dungfungus said :

John Hargreaves Ex MLA said :

dungfungus said :

rosscoact said :

dungfungus said :

goody658 said :

Totally agree. Watch the sabre rattling get worse as his polls go lower.

His?
Who exactly are you referring to?.

I believe, from reading the OP, that contained the words “the current Federal government” in the 5th last para that goody658 is probably referring to the leader of that government. Just a guess.

If that is indeed the case then goody568 is wrong as the Abbott government has achieved its best two-party-preferred poll result since before its budget.
The latest Newspoll shows Labor ahead by 51 to 49 per cent.

Nuff said. Govt needs a scare campaign to improve its standing. It has been said before that if you want to keep yourself in governance, a war is really handy…

You mean to say smiling children holding severed heads isn’t scary enough for you?

it is very scary as was the picture of the naked Vietnamese girl running from her burning village, and covered in burning napalm. Let’s not get too selective here.

The difference is that the photo of the burning girl in Vietnam helped turn public opinion against the war. Sure, she was an innocent victim but she was not deliberately targeted.
The be-headings and involvement of smiling children is done deliberately as are the children in Gaza are placed in the line of fire.
John, you should study psychiatry and you may discover that what these people are doing is repugnant to us but it is normal behaviour to them.
These horrible images of severed heads are only inuring us for what is yet to come and people like you that espouse a “live and let live” dogma should consider that soon it will have to be “kill or be killed”.
Sorry if that offends some people but that is the way it is.

So, you’ve studied psychiatric then?

I don’t think one can study “psychiatric” but I was told of this type of human behaviour by a psychiatrist at a social gathering.
Someone was discussing a report in the media about some low life grabbing a pensioner’s handbag after knocking her to the ground and someone commented “how can someone sleep at night after doing that?”.
The psychiatrist chimed in and said “that person will sleep quite well because he was engaging in normal behaviour”.

So your post is validated by an unknown psychiatrist interrupting a discussion taking about someone who has done something? Must be true then.

It’s possible he was an ASIO spy masquerading as a psychiatrist.

The use of fear by political parties is really far more disturbing to me. It seems if you are of a left or right leaning nature you can easily be convinced without any facts to believe anything as it suits your political persuasion.

I really object to people trying to tell me that children holding severed heads is normal, or suicide bombing is normal to these people. It isn’t. Some of the friendliest and nicest people I’ve met in the world were muslims. They were in general more disgusted with what happens than I was. The problem is it suits conservatives of a different religious persuasion to paint them as terrorists and use fear to slander a large group of people. If we used the same logic and reasoning that some members of the public apply to islam, then Australia could be seen a a country where raping and molesting children is perfectly OK. It isn’t but doesn’t stop apologists from the Catholic church.

We are always happy to cut back foreign aid, but one of the better tools for fighting terrorism, is to fight back with aid. People living in poor conditions are far more likely to turn to terrorism as an option than people living in better conditions, with clean drinking water, shelter, jobs etc.

Yes I’m completely appalled and disgusted by the terrorists actions. But I’m not naive and uneducated. I know from experience as do many others that islam is not the problem. If Australia was more inclusive without bogan team Australia, respect others beliefs, terrorism would never be a threat here. If all the communities in Australia are happy, we have nothing to fear. Instead we have people who like to spread fear and panic, lies for political gain.

Please don’t try and call me a lefty or communist. I’m actually a moderate voter, and a decent person who can see right and wrong without political ideology getting in the way. I’m disgusted by the way our government behaves (as i was with labor regarding the boats), but its well know fact that they do well in the polls when there is a global conflict to use as a fear campaign.

dungfungus said :

John Hargreaves Ex MLA said :

dungfungus said :

John Hargreaves Ex MLA said :

dungfungus said :

John Hargreaves Ex MLA said :

dungfungus said :

If you haven’t been watching the live presentation from the National Press Club by David Irvine, Director General of ASIO, then I suggest you follow it up and perhaps you could then give a re-assessment of your statement “we are being taken for a bit of a ride here”.
I look forward to your comments.

And you believed our non so secret super spy? It quacks like a duck

I’ll take that as you haven’t watched it yet.
Your federal Labor mates appointed David Irvine in 2009.
I guess groupthink was “we already have a Swan so why not a duck as well?”

I didn’t know that Super Spies were there to explain Government policy. I thought the pollies were there to do that.

If you watched the presentation you would understand that the existence of terrorism has nothing to do with “government policy”.

Apologist

Calling me an apologist in this instance is saying:
“You are correct about what David Irvine said and have facts to back it up but I won’t agree with you and tell you that because I want to pretend I’m right.”
BTW, I am a proud member of Team Australia.

I don’t say that Irvine was wrong in how he identified the real threat, I challenge his right to do so. It is the job of those we vote for and hold accountable. It should have been Abbott’s or Morrison’s call. I disagree with the notion that people such as Irvine should make statements about policy. And my views are shared. check the Canberra Times Op piece today.

And if you are on Team Australia, who is your opposition? Do you suggest that people who don’t share your position are against Team Australia? What a silly analogy for the PM to make.

dungfungus said :

John Hargreaves Ex MLA said :

dungfungus said :

John Hargreaves Ex MLA said :

dungfungus said :

John Hargreaves Ex MLA said :

dungfungus said :

rosscoact said :

dungfungus said :

goody658 said :

Totally agree. Watch the sabre rattling get worse as his polls go lower.

His?
Who exactly are you referring to?.

I believe, from reading the OP, that contained the words “the current Federal government” in the 5th last para that goody658 is probably referring to the leader of that government. Just a guess.

If that is indeed the case then goody568 is wrong as the Abbott government has achieved its best two-party-preferred poll result since before its budget.
The latest Newspoll shows Labor ahead by 51 to 49 per cent.

Nuff said. Govt needs a scare campaign to improve its standing. It has been said before that if you want to keep yourself in governance, a war is really handy…

You mean to say smiling children holding severed heads isn’t scary enough for you?

it is very scary as was the picture of the naked Vietnamese girl running from her burning village, and covered in burning napalm. Let’s not get too selective here.

The difference is that the photo of the burning girl in Vietnam helped turn public opinion against the war. Sure, she was an innocent victim but she was not deliberately targeted.
The be-headings and involvement of smiling children is done deliberately as are the children in Gaza are placed in the line of fire.
John, you should study psychiatry and you may discover that what these people are doing is repugnant to us but it is normal behaviour to them.
These horrible images of severed heads are only inuring us for what is yet to come and people like you that espouse a “live and let live” dogma should consider that soon it will have to be “kill or be killed”.
Sorry if that offends some people but that is the way it is.

So, you’ve studied psychiatric then?

I don’t think one can study “psychiatric” but I was told of this type of human behaviour by a psychiatrist at a social gathering.
Someone was discussing a report in the media about some low life grabbing a pensioner’s handbag after knocking her to the ground and someone commented “how can someone sleep at night after doing that?”.
The psychiatrist chimed in and said “that person will sleep quite well because he was engaging in normal behaviour”.

So your post is validated by an unknown psychiatrist interrupting a discussion taking about someone who has done something? Must be true then.

John Hargreaves Ex MLA said :

dungfungus said :

John Hargreaves Ex MLA said :

dungfungus said :

John Hargreaves Ex MLA said :

dungfungus said :

If you haven’t been watching the live presentation from the National Press Club by David Irvine, Director General of ASIO, then I suggest you follow it up and perhaps you could then give a re-assessment of your statement “we are being taken for a bit of a ride here”.
I look forward to your comments.

And you believed our non so secret super spy? It quacks like a duck

I’ll take that as you haven’t watched it yet.
Your federal Labor mates appointed David Irvine in 2009.
I guess groupthink was “we already have a Swan so why not a duck as well?”

I didn’t know that Super Spies were there to explain Government policy. I thought the pollies were there to do that.

If you watched the presentation you would understand that the existence of terrorism has nothing to do with “government policy”.

Apologist

Calling me an apologist in this instance is saying:
“You are correct about what David Irvine said and have facts to back it up but I won’t agree with you and tell you that because I want to pretend I’m right.”
BTW, I am a proud member of Team Australia.

John Hargreaves Ex MLA said :

dungfungus said :

John Hargreaves Ex MLA said :

dungfungus said :

John Hargreaves Ex MLA said :

dungfungus said :

rosscoact said :

dungfungus said :

goody658 said :

Totally agree. Watch the sabre rattling get worse as his polls go lower.

His?
Who exactly are you referring to?.

I believe, from reading the OP, that contained the words “the current Federal government” in the 5th last para that goody658 is probably referring to the leader of that government. Just a guess.

If that is indeed the case then goody568 is wrong as the Abbott government has achieved its best two-party-preferred poll result since before its budget.
The latest Newspoll shows Labor ahead by 51 to 49 per cent.

Nuff said. Govt needs a scare campaign to improve its standing. It has been said before that if you want to keep yourself in governance, a war is really handy…

You mean to say smiling children holding severed heads isn’t scary enough for you?

it is very scary as was the picture of the naked Vietnamese girl running from her burning village, and covered in burning napalm. Let’s not get too selective here.

The difference is that the photo of the burning girl in Vietnam helped turn public opinion against the war. Sure, she was an innocent victim but she was not deliberately targeted.
The be-headings and involvement of smiling children is done deliberately as are the children in Gaza are placed in the line of fire.
John, you should study psychiatry and you may discover that what these people are doing is repugnant to us but it is normal behaviour to them.
These horrible images of severed heads are only inuring us for what is yet to come and people like you that espouse a “live and let live” dogma should consider that soon it will have to be “kill or be killed”.
Sorry if that offends some people but that is the way it is.

So, you’ve studied psychiatric then?

I don’t think one can study “psychiatric” but I was told of this type of human behaviour by a psychiatrist at a social gathering.
Someone was discussing a report in the media about some low life grabbing a pensioner’s handbag after knocking her to the ground and someone commented “how can someone sleep at night after doing that?”.
The psychiatrist chimed in and said “that person will sleep quite well because he was engaging in normal behaviour”.

dungfungus said :

John Hargreaves Ex MLA said :

dungfungus said :

John Hargreaves Ex MLA said :

dungfungus said :

rosscoact said :

dungfungus said :

goody658 said :

Totally agree. Watch the sabre rattling get worse as his polls go lower.

His?
Who exactly are you referring to?.

I believe, from reading the OP, that contained the words “the current Federal government” in the 5th last para that goody658 is probably referring to the leader of that government. Just a guess.

If that is indeed the case then goody568 is wrong as the Abbott government has achieved its best two-party-preferred poll result since before its budget.
The latest Newspoll shows Labor ahead by 51 to 49 per cent.

Nuff said. Govt needs a scare campaign to improve its standing. It has been said before that if you want to keep yourself in governance, a war is really handy…

You mean to say smiling children holding severed heads isn’t scary enough for you?

it is very scary as was the picture of the naked Vietnamese girl running from her burning village, and covered in burning napalm. Let’s not get too selective here.

The difference is that the photo of the burning girl in Vietnam helped turn public opinion against the war. Sure, she was an innocent victim but she was not deliberately targeted.
The be-headings and involvement of smiling children is done deliberately as are the children in Gaza are placed in the line of fire.
John, you should study psychiatry and you may discover that what these people are doing is repugnant to us but it is normal behaviour to them.
These horrible images of severed heads are only inuring us for what is yet to come and people like you that espouse a “live and let live” dogma should consider that soon it will have to be “kill or be killed”.
Sorry if that offends some people but that is the way it is.

So, you’ve studied psychiatric then?

dungfungus said :

John Hargreaves Ex MLA said :

dungfungus said :

John Hargreaves Ex MLA said :

dungfungus said :

If you haven’t been watching the live presentation from the National Press Club by David Irvine, Director General of ASIO, then I suggest you follow it up and perhaps you could then give a re-assessment of your statement “we are being taken for a bit of a ride here”.
I look forward to your comments.

And you believed our non so secret super spy? It quacks like a duck

I’ll take that as you haven’t watched it yet.
Your federal Labor mates appointed David Irvine in 2009.
I guess groupthink was “we already have a Swan so why not a duck as well?”

I didn’t know that Super Spies were there to explain Government policy. I thought the pollies were there to do that.

If you watched the presentation you would understand that the existence of terrorism has nothing to do with “government policy”.

Apologist

VYBerlinaV8_is_back said :

John Hargreaves Ex MLA said :

it is very scary as was the picture of the naked Vietnamese girl running from her burning village, and covered in burning napalm. Let’s not get too selective here.

This is well worth a look, I think:

http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/regionals/west/2013/02/14/kim-phuc-girl-famous-vietnam-photo-talks-about-forgiveness/BrLEcMnoycAj90gHbCJPBJ/story.html

Then again it’s very difficult for a head subdivided from a body to express forgiveness.

John Hargreaves Ex MLA said :

it is very scary as was the picture of the naked Vietnamese girl running from her burning village, and covered in burning napalm. Let’s not get too selective here.

This is well worth a look, I think:

http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/regionals/west/2013/02/14/kim-phuc-girl-famous-vietnam-photo-talks-about-forgiveness/BrLEcMnoycAj90gHbCJPBJ/story.html

John Hargreaves Ex MLA said :

dungfungus said :

John Hargreaves Ex MLA said :

dungfungus said :

rosscoact said :

dungfungus said :

goody658 said :

Totally agree. Watch the sabre rattling get worse as his polls go lower.

His?
Who exactly are you referring to?.

I believe, from reading the OP, that contained the words “the current Federal government” in the 5th last para that goody658 is probably referring to the leader of that government. Just a guess.

If that is indeed the case then goody568 is wrong as the Abbott government has achieved its best two-party-preferred poll result since before its budget.
The latest Newspoll shows Labor ahead by 51 to 49 per cent.

Nuff said. Govt needs a scare campaign to improve its standing. It has been said before that if you want to keep yourself in governance, a war is really handy…

You mean to say smiling children holding severed heads isn’t scary enough for you?

it is very scary as was the picture of the naked Vietnamese girl running from her burning village, and covered in burning napalm. Let’s not get too selective here.

The difference is that the photo of the burning girl in Vietnam helped turn public opinion against the war. Sure, she was an innocent victim but she was not deliberately targeted.
The be-headings and involvement of smiling children is done deliberately as are the children in Gaza are placed in the line of fire.
John, you should study psychiatry and you may discover that what these people are doing is repugnant to us but it is normal behaviour to them.
These horrible images of severed heads are only inuring us for what is yet to come and people like you that espouse a “live and let live” dogma should consider that soon it will have to be “kill or be killed”.
Sorry if that offends some people but that is the way it is.

John Hargreaves Ex MLA said :

dungfungus said :

John Hargreaves Ex MLA said :

dungfungus said :

If you haven’t been watching the live presentation from the National Press Club by David Irvine, Director General of ASIO, then I suggest you follow it up and perhaps you could then give a re-assessment of your statement “we are being taken for a bit of a ride here”.
I look forward to your comments.

And you believed our non so secret super spy? It quacks like a duck

I’ll take that as you haven’t watched it yet.
Your federal Labor mates appointed David Irvine in 2009.
I guess groupthink was “we already have a Swan so why not a duck as well?”

I didn’t know that Super Spies were there to explain Government policy. I thought the pollies were there to do that.

Seems some ACT pollies are happy to stand behind public servants (eg Human Rights Commissioner) rather than defend their own legislation/ policies.

John Hargreaves, starting a post shouldn’t give you carte blanche to hog the comments.

John Hargreaves Ex MLA said :

dungfungus said :

John Hargreaves Ex MLA said :

dungfungus said :

If you haven’t been watching the live presentation from the National Press Club by David Irvine, Director General of ASIO, then I suggest you follow it up and perhaps you could then give a re-assessment of your statement “we are being taken for a bit of a ride here”.
I look forward to your comments.

And you believed our non so secret super spy? It quacks like a duck

I’ll take that as you haven’t watched it yet.
Your federal Labor mates appointed David Irvine in 2009.
I guess groupthink was “we already have a Swan so why not a duck as well?”

I didn’t know that Super Spies were there to explain Government policy. I thought the pollies were there to do that.

If you watched the presentation you would understand that the existence of terrorism has nothing to do with “government policy”.

dungfungus said :

John Hargreaves Ex MLA said :

dungfungus said :

If you haven’t been watching the live presentation from the National Press Club by David Irvine, Director General of ASIO, then I suggest you follow it up and perhaps you could then give a re-assessment of your statement “we are being taken for a bit of a ride here”.
I look forward to your comments.

And you believed our non so secret super spy? It quacks like a duck

I’ll take that as you haven’t watched it yet.
Your federal Labor mates appointed David Irvine in 2009.
I guess groupthink was “we already have a Swan so why not a duck as well?”

I didn’t know that Super Spies were there to explain Government policy. I thought the pollies were there to do that.

dungfungus said :

John Hargreaves Ex MLA said :

dungfungus said :

If you haven’t been watching the live presentation from the National Press Club by David Irvine, Director General of ASIO, then I suggest you follow it up and perhaps you could then give a re-assessment of your statement “we are being taken for a bit of a ride here”.
I look forward to your comments.

And you believed our non so secret super spy? It quacks like a duck

John Hargreaves Ex MLA said :

dungfungus said :

justin heywood said :

So to summarise then,

– troubles in the middle east that have incredible complexity and a historical background stretching back decades, if not centuries, can all be attributed to America. Simple really. Apparently things were just dandy before the Americans got involved.

– troubles in Australia; well we don’t have any real problems in Australia – it’s all a beat up – but if we do, then obviously they are the fault of the conservatives (who only just got into power).

– We have learned from several of John’s previous posts about the dangers of Catholicism, but any fear of Islam is fabricated and used to manipulate the ignorant.

It seems that all we need to do is see sense and vote for John’s party, and everything will be be OK.

The book the OP refers to is total fiction which isn’t declared.
I would suggest to John that he read some factual reference books such as “The Geopolitics of Emotion” by Dominique Moisi.
On the subject of Saddam having WMDs being a lie, I am surprised how everyone seems to have forgotten that Saddam was building a super artillery cannon that could fire shells (as big as a VW Beetle” to anywhere in the Middle East.
He also fired SCUD missiles with chemical warheads into Tel Aviv did he not?
Next thing Johno will be saying 9/11 didn’t happen.

The book by Crichton is a fictional story based on a real political hypothesis. For your information, I hold a degree in Defence and Strategic Studies from Deakin Uni and am well aware of current thinking.

I have been accused of partisanship and “religious” fervour. Perhaps an examination of my Hansards will allay that suspicion. I did give credit where it was due as I gave criticisms when they were due.

I don’t blindly follow the edicts of the US. 911 was hideous. So too was the slaughter of over 2500 non combatants in Gaza, so too were the genocidal massacres in Africa recently. So too was the maniacal bombing of Nagasaki and Hiroshima.

I place the blame for these deaths on the need for individuals and governments to ensure that their ideology is right. the insistence on this right by the use of force is to me unacceptable.

Given your dove-like reactions to the realities of warfare it seemed you wasted your studies in defence and strategies. That apart, congratulations on gaining a degree. Do we now have to address you as Professor Hargreaves or Doctor Johno?
Re Gaza, have you seen the repetitive news clip on ABC TV showing the Hamas leaders in Gaza declaring a victory in the war against Israel?. These people are delusional.

Just plain Johno is fine. As I posted once before – I don’t care about the leaders in that Gaza conflict, I just wish they’d both stop killing kids.

In terms of being dove-like, happy to wear that tag if it makes you happy. But 2 years in National Service from 1969-1971 and three years in the Army reserve can make one a bit like that.

dungfungus said :

John Hargreaves Ex MLA said :

dungfungus said :

rosscoact said :

dungfungus said :

goody658 said :

Totally agree. Watch the sabre rattling get worse as his polls go lower.

His?
Who exactly are you referring to?.

I believe, from reading the OP, that contained the words “the current Federal government” in the 5th last para that goody658 is probably referring to the leader of that government. Just a guess.

If that is indeed the case then goody568 is wrong as the Abbott government has achieved its best two-party-preferred poll result since before its budget.
The latest Newspoll shows Labor ahead by 51 to 49 per cent.

Nuff said. Govt needs a scare campaign to improve its standing. It has been said before that if you want to keep yourself in governance, a war is really handy…

You mean to say smiling children holding severed heads isn’t scary enough for you?

it is very scary as was the picture of the naked Vietnamese girl running from her burning village, and covered in burning napalm. Let’s not get too selective here.

It’s OK John – the ACT Human Rights Commissioner will save us!

John Hargreaves Ex MLA said :

dungfungus said :

If you haven’t been watching the live presentation from the National Press Club by David Irvine, Director General of ASIO, then I suggest you follow it up and perhaps you could then give a re-assessment of your statement “we are being taken for a bit of a ride here”.
I look forward to your comments.

And you believed our non so secret super spy? It quacks like a duck

I’ll take that as you haven’t watched it yet.
Your federal Labor mates appointed David Irvine in 2009.
I guess groupthink was “we already have a Swan so why not a duck as well?”

John Hargreaves Ex MLA said :

dungfungus said :

If you haven’t been watching the live presentation from the National Press Club by David Irvine, Director General of ASIO, then I suggest you follow it up and perhaps you could then give a re-assessment of your statement “we are being taken for a bit of a ride here”.
I look forward to your comments.

And you believed our non so secret super spy? It quacks like a duck

John Hargreaves Ex MLA said :

dungfungus said :

justin heywood said :

So to summarise then,

– troubles in the middle east that have incredible complexity and a historical background stretching back decades, if not centuries, can all be attributed to America. Simple really. Apparently things were just dandy before the Americans got involved.

– troubles in Australia; well we don’t have any real problems in Australia – it’s all a beat up – but if we do, then obviously they are the fault of the conservatives (who only just got into power).

– We have learned from several of John’s previous posts about the dangers of Catholicism, but any fear of Islam is fabricated and used to manipulate the ignorant.

It seems that all we need to do is see sense and vote for John’s party, and everything will be be OK.

The book the OP refers to is total fiction which isn’t declared.
I would suggest to John that he read some factual reference books such as “The Geopolitics of Emotion” by Dominique Moisi.
On the subject of Saddam having WMDs being a lie, I am surprised how everyone seems to have forgotten that Saddam was building a super artillery cannon that could fire shells (as big as a VW Beetle” to anywhere in the Middle East.
He also fired SCUD missiles with chemical warheads into Tel Aviv did he not?
Next thing Johno will be saying 9/11 didn’t happen.

The book by Crichton is a fictional story based on a real political hypothesis. For your information, I hold a degree in Defence and Strategic Studies from Deakin Uni and am well aware of current thinking.

I have been accused of partisanship and “religious” fervour. Perhaps an examination of my Hansards will allay that suspicion. I did give credit where it was due as I gave criticisms when they were due.

I don’t blindly follow the edicts of the US. 911 was hideous. So too was the slaughter of over 2500 non combatants in Gaza, so too were the genocidal massacres in Africa recently. So too was the maniacal bombing of Nagasaki and Hiroshima.

I place the blame for these deaths on the need for individuals and governments to ensure that their ideology is right. the insistence on this right by the use of force is to me unacceptable.

Given your dove-like reactions to the realities of warfare it seemed you wasted your studies in defence and strategies. That apart, congratulations on gaining a degree. Do we now have to address you as Professor Hargreaves or Doctor Johno?
Re Gaza, have you seen the repetitive news clip on ABC TV showing the Hamas leaders in Gaza declaring a victory in the war against Israel?. These people are delusional.

John Hargreaves Ex MLA said :

dungfungus said :

rosscoact said :

dungfungus said :

goody658 said :

Totally agree. Watch the sabre rattling get worse as his polls go lower.

His?
Who exactly are you referring to?.

I believe, from reading the OP, that contained the words “the current Federal government” in the 5th last para that goody658 is probably referring to the leader of that government. Just a guess.

If that is indeed the case then goody568 is wrong as the Abbott government has achieved its best two-party-preferred poll result since before its budget.
The latest Newspoll shows Labor ahead by 51 to 49 per cent.

Nuff said. Govt needs a scare campaign to improve its standing. It has been said before that if you want to keep yourself in governance, a war is really handy…

You mean to say smiling children holding severed heads isn’t scary enough for you?

Masquara said :

John Hargreaves how do you explain the “behead the infidels” posters that appeared (including being held by children) during the Sydney riots a couple of years ago? Those were “home grown”. Where was the “Cronulla” cause there? At the time I think it occurred to none of us that they meant those posters literally. And how do you explain the butchering of Lee Rigby in London? If that isn’t “home grown terrorism”, occurring in much the same way as we are risking here, what is? What do you think all those imams are doing spouting anti-semitism and refusing to meet with the PM? How do you explain the “terrorism training camps” undertaken in recent years around Braidwood? And by what measure do you call that young woman on Q&A stating that a child damaged through being used as a human shield by Hamas, is on the same plane as the beheading of James Foley, something that belongs in a civilised debate? Seriously, adjust your compass.

Selective examples and most with no real proof. How do you explain Agent Orange, napalm bombing of villages, the CIA executing the South Vietnam President at the start of the Vietnam War?

We can all come up with examples but I ask that people consider that perhaps both sides of the conflicts we now see unfolding and continuing are in fact wrong.

dungfungus said :

justin heywood said :

So to summarise then,

– troubles in the middle east that have incredible complexity and a historical background stretching back decades, if not centuries, can all be attributed to America. Simple really. Apparently things were just dandy before the Americans got involved.

– troubles in Australia; well we don’t have any real problems in Australia – it’s all a beat up – but if we do, then obviously they are the fault of the conservatives (who only just got into power).

– We have learned from several of John’s previous posts about the dangers of Catholicism, but any fear of Islam is fabricated and used to manipulate the ignorant.

It seems that all we need to do is see sense and vote for John’s party, and everything will be be OK.

The book the OP refers to is total fiction which isn’t declared.
I would suggest to John that he read some factual reference books such as “The Geopolitics of Emotion” by Dominique Moisi.
On the subject of Saddam having WMDs being a lie, I am surprised how everyone seems to have forgotten that Saddam was building a super artillery cannon that could fire shells (as big as a VW Beetle” to anywhere in the Middle East.
He also fired SCUD missiles with chemical warheads into Tel Aviv did he not?
Next thing Johno will be saying 9/11 didn’t happen.

The book by Crichton is a fictional story based on a real political hypothesis. For your information, I hold a degree in Defence and Strategic Studies from Deakin Uni and am well aware of current thinking.

I have been accused of partisanship and “religious” fervour. Perhaps an examination of my Hansards will allay that suspicion. I did give credit where it was due as I gave criticisms when they were due.

I don’t blindly follow the edicts of the US. 911 was hideous. So too was the slaughter of over 2500 non combatants in Gaza, so too were the genocidal massacres in Africa recently. So too was the maniacal bombing of Nagasaki and Hiroshima.

I place the blame for these deaths on the need for individuals and governments to ensure that their ideology is right. the insistence on this right by the use of force is to me unacceptable.

John Hargreaves Ex MLA said :

justin heywood said :

So to summarise then,

– troubles in the middle east that have incredible complexity and a historical background stretching back decades, if not centuries, can all be attributed to America. Simple really. Apparently things were just dandy before the Americans got involved.

– troubles in Australia; well we don’t have any real problems in Australia – it’s all a beat up – but if we do, then obviously they are the fault of the conservatives (who only just got into power).

– We have learned from several of John’s previous posts about the dangers of Catholicism, but any fear of Islam is fabricated and used to manipulate the ignorant.

It seems that all we need to do is see sense and vote for John’s party, and everything will be be OK.

Well, Justin, that’s a good recommendation from you, thanks. the real issue is that all that is Islam is not bad, all that is Christian is not bad, but both had a history of vicious ethnic cleansing,

My post however, was about the exploitation of or the perpetuation of the notion of a monster by governments to keep themselves in power. my examples were to show that governments of all persuasions here and overseas, have done it and the Abbott government is just the latest.

But the best in recent history (read the last century) has been the US. Before that there were a multitude of them.

In fact it had been the main political ehos of the Catholic Church (of which I am a member) for centuries.

Just a few thoughts.

Meant ethos not ehos – typo – sorry

justin heywood said :

So to summarise then,

– troubles in the middle east that have incredible complexity and a historical background stretching back decades, if not centuries, can all be attributed to America. Simple really. Apparently things were just dandy before the Americans got involved.

– troubles in Australia; well we don’t have any real problems in Australia – it’s all a beat up – but if we do, then obviously they are the fault of the conservatives (who only just got into power).

– We have learned from several of John’s previous posts about the dangers of Catholicism, but any fear of Islam is fabricated and used to manipulate the ignorant.

It seems that all we need to do is see sense and vote for John’s party, and everything will be be OK.

Well, Justin, that’s a good recommendation from you, thanks. the real issue is that all that is Islam is not bad, all that is Christian is not bad, but both had a history of vicious ethnic cleansing,

My post however, was about the exploitation of or the perpetuation of the notion of a monster by governments to keep themselves in power. my examples were to show that governments of all persuasions here and overseas, have done it and the Abbott government is just the latest.

But the best in recent history (read the last century) has been the US. Before that there were a multitude of them.

In fact it had been the main political ehos of the Catholic Church (of which I am a member) for centuries.

Just a few thoughts.

dungfungus said :

rosscoact said :

dungfungus said :

goody658 said :

Totally agree. Watch the sabre rattling get worse as his polls go lower.

His?
Who exactly are you referring to?.

I believe, from reading the OP, that contained the words “the current Federal government” in the 5th last para that goody658 is probably referring to the leader of that government. Just a guess.

If that is indeed the case then goody568 is wrong as the Abbott government has achieved its best two-party-preferred poll result since before its budget.
The latest Newspoll shows Labor ahead by 51 to 49 per cent.

Nuff said. Govt needs a scare campaign to improve its standing. It has been said before that if you want to keep yourself in governance, a war is really handy…

dungfungus said :

If you haven’t been watching the live presentation from the National Press Club by David Irvine, Director General of ASIO, then I suggest you follow it up and perhaps you could then give a re-assessment of your statement “we are being taken for a bit of a ride here”.
I look forward to your comments.

And you believed our non so secret super spy? It quacks like a duck

It’s so obvious it would be funny if it weren’t so terrifying. Team Abbott seems to have torn a page straight from the USA playbook. “Terrorists”, “immigrants”? Would a little originality be too much to ask for? I only hope they’re wrong in the assumption that Australians are dumb enough to fall for it.

So this was all confected, Wag The Dog style?:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holsworthy_Barracks_terror_plot

and let’s not forget this:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-11-16/gillard2c-obama-announce-darwin-troop-deployment/3675596

In truth, there seems to be little practical difference between Labor and the Coalition – when in office – on defence and security.

rosscoact said :

dungfungus said :

goody658 said :

Totally agree. Watch the sabre rattling get worse as his polls go lower.

His?
Who exactly are you referring to?.

I believe, from reading the OP, that contained the words “the current Federal government” in the 5th last para that goody658 is probably referring to the leader of that government. Just a guess.

If that is indeed the case then goody568 is wrong as the Abbott government has achieved its best two-party-preferred poll result since before its budget.
The latest Newspoll shows Labor ahead by 51 to 49 per cent.

John Hargreaves how do you explain the “behead the infidels” posters that appeared (including being held by children) during the Sydney riots a couple of years ago? Those were “home grown”. Where was the “Cronulla” cause there? At the time I think it occurred to none of us that they meant those posters literally. And how do you explain the butchering of Lee Rigby in London? If that isn’t “home grown terrorism”, occurring in much the same way as we are risking here, what is? What do you think all those imams are doing spouting anti-semitism and refusing to meet with the PM? How do you explain the “terrorism training camps” undertaken in recent years around Braidwood? And by what measure do you call that young woman on Q&A stating that a child damaged through being used as a human shield by Hamas, is on the same plane as the beheading of James Foley, something that belongs in a civilised debate? Seriously, adjust your compass.

Yes, let’s all occupy our minds with such things as same sex marriage and ignore that the world is going to hell in a hand basket. The more you post, the fewer votes you will get old son.

chewy14 said :

It may just be me but the more I read of John’s posts, the happier I am that he is an Ex MLA.

The partisanship and just blind fervour (some might even say religious) in the righteousness of his own party is extremely offputting.

I know we don’t agree on most things chewy but I am getting the same vibe.

justin heywood said :

So to summarise then,

– troubles in the middle east that have incredible complexity and a historical background stretching back decades, if not centuries, can all be attributed to America. Simple really. Apparently things were just dandy before the Americans got involved.

– troubles in Australia; well we don’t have any real problems in Australia – it’s all a beat up – but if we do, then obviously they are the fault of the conservatives (who only just got into power).

– We have learned from several of John’s previous posts about the dangers of Catholicism, but any fear of Islam is fabricated and used to manipulate the ignorant.

It seems that all we need to do is see sense and vote for John’s party, and everything will be be OK.

The book the OP refers to is total fiction which isn’t declared.
I would suggest to John that he read some factual reference books such as “The Geopolitics of Emotion” by Dominique Moisi.
On the subject of Saddam having WMDs being a lie, I am surprised how everyone seems to have forgotten that Saddam was building a super artillery cannon that could fire shells (as big as a VW Beetle” to anywhere in the Middle East.
He also fired SCUD missiles with chemical warheads into Tel Aviv did he not?
Next thing Johno will be saying 9/11 didn’t happen.

It may just be me but the more I read of John’s posts, the happier I am that he is an Ex MLA.

The partisanship and just blind fervour (some might even say religious) in the righteousness of his own party is extremely offputting.

rosscoact said :

dungfungus said :

goody658 said :

Totally agree. Watch the sabre rattling get worse as his polls go lower.

His?
Who exactly are you referring to?.

I believe, from reading the OP, that contained the words “the current Federal government” in the 5th last para that goody658 is probably referring to the leader of that government. Just a guess.

Why can’t goody658 answer or were you the designated advocate today?.

So to summarise then,

– troubles in the middle east that have incredible complexity and a historical background stretching back decades, if not centuries, can all be attributed to America. Simple really. Apparently things were just dandy before the Americans got involved.

– troubles in Australia; well we don’t have any real problems in Australia – it’s all a beat up – but if we do, then obviously they are the fault of the conservatives (who only just got into power).

– We have learned from several of John’s previous posts about the dangers of Catholicism, but any fear of Islam is fabricated and used to manipulate the ignorant.

It seems that all we need to do is see sense and vote for John’s party, and everything will be be OK.

Tones, obviously …

dungfungus said :

goody658 said :

Totally agree. Watch the sabre rattling get worse as his polls go lower.

His?
Who exactly are you referring to?.

I believe, from reading the OP, that contained the words “the current Federal government” in the 5th last para that goody658 is probably referring to the leader of that government. Just a guess.

If you haven’t been watching the live presentation from the National Press Club by David Irvine, Director General of ASIO, then I suggest you follow it up and perhaps you could then give a re-assessment of your statement “we are being taken for a bit of a ride here”.
I look forward to your comments.

goody658 said :

Totally agree. Watch the sabre rattling get worse as his polls go lower.

His?
Who exactly are you referring to?.

Totally agree. Watch the sabre rattling get worse as his polls go lower.