Unvaccinated kids may be banned from schools during outbreaks

Roundhead89 said :

The blame for the drop-off in kids being immunised can be laid at the feet of the “scientists” who helped propagate the climate change hoax. They have so debased the idea of research that people no longer believe in the benefits of things like immunisation because they believe the science is dodgy.

More from the great mind that brought us this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Fy-HAIVB_A

At 2:19 he tries to blame The Simpsons for the rise in gang activity!

pajs said :

Roundhead89 said :

The blame for the drop-off in kids being immunised can be laid at the feet of the “scientists” who helped propagate the climate change hoax. They have so debased the idea of research that people no longer believe in the benefits of things like immunisation because they believe the science is dodgy.

What a silly thing to say. Your evidence for this statement would be what, exactly?

Alan Jones said it.

Roundhead89 said :

The blame for the drop-off in kids being immunised can be laid at the feet of the “scientists” who helped propagate the climate change hoax. They have so debased the idea of research that people no longer believe in the benefits of things like immunisation because they believe the science is dodgy.

What a silly thing to say. Your evidence for this statement would be what, exactly?

Roundhead89 said :

The blame for the drop-off in kids being immunised can be laid at the feet of the “scientists” who helped propagate the climate change hoax. They have so debased the idea of research that people no longer believe in the benefits of things like immunisation because they believe the science is dodgy.

You know how Twitter has the “Verified” tick to denote a legitimate account? I wonder if someone can design a Chrome browser add-on so we can have a symbol for “moron” display next to every RiotACT comment by posters like this one, so we can just slide on by without wasting our time reading them? Or maybe an Ebay-style user rating mechanism… #justdreaming

Back to 2UE Roundhead, and be careful you don’t sail off the edge of the Earth on your way.

Postalgeek said :

Roundhead89 said :

The blame for the drop-off in kids being immunised can be laid at the feet of the “scientists” who helped propagate the climate change hoax. They have so debased the idea of research that people no longer believe in the benefits of things like immunisation because they believe the science is dodgy.

When you were constructing this theory inside your head, were you holding your breath and squinting the whole time?

No he was reading Miranda Devine or maybe you’re right.

pink little birdie said :

Please vaccinate. I find it crazy that the government are having to spend additional money on tv ads and movie ads for vaccination because people aren’t vaccinating.

It should be mandatory for everyone without a medical reason. People who object should have to spend a week “volunteering” in a childrens ward of a polio/other preventable disease hospital in the developing world.

And I bet that they would insist on getting all their jabs before they went.

Roundhead89 said :

The blame for the drop-off in kids being immunised can be laid at the feet of the “scientists” who helped propagate the climate change hoax. They have so debased the idea of research that people no longer believe in the benefits of things like immunisation because they believe the science is dodgy.

Here’s a link to a picture that sums up my rebuttal almost perfectly:

http://sphotos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/969676_598543733499975_121083493_n.jpg

I feel the need only to add: you idiot.

Roundhead89 said :

The blame for the drop-off in kids being immunised can be laid at the feet of the “scientists” who helped propagate the climate change hoax. They have so debased the idea of research that people no longer believe in the benefits of things like immunisation because they believe the science is dodgy.

When you were constructing this theory inside your head, were you holding your breath and squinting the whole time?

Why vaccinate? Simple: http://imgur.com/a/pc8QX

PS I think it would be totally appropriate if the wacko anti-vaccination parents of Canberra (soi-disant anti-Mullies) reaped a collective Mully this month!

PigDog said :

The anti-vacc people seem to pick and chose the science they want to believe.
…….

To finish up on my rant, while I don’t think it is great for a child to be punished for the irresponsible, stupid, dangerous and self centred behaviour of their parents, I don’t want there kids near my kids.

The thing with the Internet is, you can do exactly that – find information that will support your point of view no matter what it is.

Peer reviewed papers are almost never mentioned when people make their arguments, and whilst I appreciate that there is a lot of money thrown around by pharmaceutical companies, it doesn’t mean that all medical science is a fraud, and a result of companies wanting to flog off their pills.

I don’t think there are many people around who went to school pre-1950s who would argue against vaccination. That’s because there were a lot more kids at school with polio then than there are now, ie. polio vaccinations demonstrably reduced the incidence of polio in the community since its introduction.

I think we have seen in a certain school in Canberra in recent times, what happens when kids are not immunised.

Grail said :

Some vaccines are cultured in hen eggs. Which kinda sucks if you’re in a Mexican standoff between your doctor who insists on diving you a measles vaccine, but you’re allergic to egg.

Vaccines can kill, because some doctors still don’t believe in food allergies, or simply fail to read the ingredients list: “contains nuts” it says in bold letters on the bag of peanuts, “cultured in chicken eggs” it says in bold letters on the measles vaccine.

Sure, most vaccines are not cultured in hen eggs, and many of those that used to be are cultured in other ways today. But just because someone refuses to get an immunisation for disease X doesn’t mean they’re some luddite who doesn’t believe that vaccination works.

I expect that a child with a medically documented life-threatening egg allergy could and should be excused from the legislation and attend a school where 99.9 per cent of the kids are vaccinated, as the risk in a generally vaccinated population is minimal. But you get wacko schools in, say, Byron Bay, where half the kids are unvaccinated. And a couple of babies in that area have died of whooping cough. (Their parents are active vaccine advocates now – too late for those kids).

Roundhead89 said :

The blame for the drop-off in kids being immunised can be laid at the feet of the “scientists” who helped propagate the climate change hoax. They have so debased the idea of research that people no longer believe in the benefits of things like immunisation because they believe the science is dodgy.

Yes you’re very funny.
Just a reminder that vaccines are not 100% so you might still catch the disease if it is floating around. Yes, hippies, human immune systems are very strong if you are generally healthy. But it’s hard to have a good immune response to a disease that is almost eradicated and it’s even harder if you’re constantly under pressure from the latest super lurgy.

Grail I totally agree with you but if my child was allergic to vaccines I’d rather have her home for 2 weeks during an outbreak than for two months dying. I’d rather see anyone else excluded for the same reason. Obviously forced vaccination is a better option in many ways but we don’t generally force people to take medicines. As a society we value this freedom over health even when it’s a child whose parents are making the bad decision. Maybe our values will change but for now it’s hard to see how to effect this change.

Roundhead89 said :

The blame for the drop-off in kids being immunised can be laid at the feet of the “scientists” who helped propagate the climate change hoax. They have so debased the idea of research that people no longer believe in the benefits of things like immunisation because they believe the science is dodgy.

You see, the thing about science is you do not get to pick and choose what’s right and what’s wrong.

Science is science.

Science proves climate change is real and it also is responsible for making the world better via vaccinations.

Only a total halfwit would make the claim you just did. From now on, nothing you ever post can be taken seriously.

Jivrashia said :

Guys.

I think there seems to be a misunderstanding about the benefits of vaccination.
Of course, it could be me that has misunderstood, but hear me out…

Even if your child is immunised, she/he will catch the odd flu.
But, since the immune system already knows how to respond, the symptom will be light, at worst, and the duration short. This is to the point that you or your children wouldn’t realise that they have been infected.

The real risk is to the un-vaccinated children.
Their symptom, if they catch a flu, will be prolonged and will be more sever compared to those that are immunised.

CHILDREN NOT VACCINATED ARE THE ONES WHO ARE VULNERABLE, and not your children if you have vaccinated them.

I think this is the reason why the authorities want to keep un-vaccinated children away.
For their own protection, as they are vulnerable to the sever symptom of flu.

Your immunised children should be safe from infected un-vaccinated children.

(disclaimer: I am not a medical practitioner)

A few months ago I was struck down with a particularly horrendous case of gastro. I was bedridden and my husband took time off work to care for our 18m old. I was very worried that she too would get sick.

I mentioned this to my Dr when I was able to drag myself there the following day and she said was interesting – she told me it was most likely my daughter had in fact passed on the virus to me from day care. She was most likely infected but thankfully her rota-virus vaccine was doing its job and protecting her from an illness that could could prove fatal to such a small person.

Apparently my husband and I are susceptible to this whole new generation of germs going around that our daughter has been vaccinated against, but at least we are big enough and ugly enough to survive whatever we catch.

The blame for the drop-off in kids being immunised can be laid at the feet of the “scientists” who helped propagate the climate change hoax. They have so debased the idea of research that people no longer believe in the benefits of things like immunisation because they believe the science is dodgy.

Guys.

I think there seems to be a misunderstanding about the benefits of vaccination.
Of course, it could be me that has misunderstood, but hear me out…

Even if your child is immunised, she/he will catch the odd flu.
But, since the immune system already knows how to respond, the symptom will be light, at worst, and the duration short. This is to the point that you or your children wouldn’t realise that they have been infected.

The real risk is to the un-vaccinated children.
Their symptom, if they catch a flu, will be prolonged and will be more sever compared to those that are immunised.

CHILDREN NOT VACCINATED ARE THE ONES WHO ARE VULNERABLE, and not your children if you have vaccinated them.

I think this is the reason why the authorities want to keep un-vaccinated children away.
For their own protection, as they are vulnerable to the sever symptom of flu.

Your immunised children should be safe from infected un-vaccinated children.

(disclaimer: I am not a medical practitioner)

devils_advocate said :

c_c™ said :

For some vaccines, the immunity wears off naturally, which is the case for DTaP where immunity declines until it is totally worn off within 10 years. (I could enter quite a long discussion here about why I think the DTaP advice in Australia is defective compared to that in the US but would be too long winded).

What about just the cliffs version? Also what is DTaP?

DTaP refers to the the Diphtheria, Tetanus, Whooping Cough (Pertussis) vaccine, and more specifically the newer version that is better tolerated. (Predecessor had the acronym DTwP). They’re just acronyms, you’ll find the products have different brand names like Boostrix.

Anyway, personally, I question why the official advice in the US remains that people should get DTaP boosters every ten years while in Australia, they don’t give that advice anymore. They only recommend boosters for expectant mothers and people working with young children. Particularly interesting since some suggestions are the newer DTaP vaccine isn’t as effective as the old one, so one would think heard immunity would be more important.

c_c™ said :

For some vaccines, the immunity wears off naturally, which is the case for DTaP where immunity declines until it is totally worn off within 10 years. (I could enter quite a long discussion here about why I think the DTaP advice in Australia is defective compared to that in the US but would be too long winded).

What about just the cliffs version? Also what is DTaP?

devils_advocate said :

I’ll need to know about this topic sooner rather than later, so could someone please break this down for me:

I agree it’s vital to get the kids immunised, but why should I care about what other people do? I mean sure the kids didn’t do anything to deserve it but nor do kids to anything to deserve being born into stupid tree-hugging hippy families in general, and all the intellect-crippling results that go along with that.

So what is the risk to me/my kids provided I make sure mine get immunised? Is it because some vaccinations are only administered at a certain age and there is a risk some older, unvaccinated kid will carry the disease and pass it on at school age? Or is it because a kid that is too young to get vaccinated will be in public at some point and have enough contact with an unvaccinated carrier to get sick?

The other aspect is essentially a free-riding problem – the ones that don’t get vaccinated are depending on everyone else to get vaccinated and stop them coming into contact with the disease. The free-riding issue arises in many areas of life (welfare payments, etc). But I thought this was one place that sensible people could more or less insulate thmselves from risk.

So my question is, where is my residual risk assuming I act responsibly?

If you have your own child immunised, they can still get sick, just not as bad. I’m all for banning the kids from childcare etc – i do feel sorry for the families that can’t immunise their children for medical or cultural reasons, but I feel sorry for the children whose parents rely on other people to inject their own children with ‘poison’ just to protect their own. Makes me wonder whether these parents have been immunised themselves? Do they vaccinate their pets? Do they also make sure that no other unimmunised children don’t come into contact with their own child?

devils_advocate said :

I’ll need to know about this topic sooner rather than later, so could someone please break this down for me:

I agree it’s vital to get the kids immunised, but why should I care about what other people do? I mean sure the kids didn’t do anything to deserve it but nor do kids to anything to deserve being born into stupid tree-hugging hippy families in general, and all the intellect-crippling results that go along with that.

So what is the risk to me/my kids provided I make sure mine get immunised? Is it because some vaccinations are only administered at a certain age and there is a risk some older, unvaccinated kid will carry the disease and pass it on at school age? Or is it because a kid that is too young to get vaccinated will be in public at some point and have enough contact with an unvaccinated carrier to get sick?

The other aspect is essentially a free-riding problem – the ones that don’t get vaccinated are depending on everyone else to get vaccinated and stop them coming into contact with the disease. The free-riding issue arises in many areas of life (welfare payments, etc). But I thought this was one place that sensible people could more or less insulate thmselves from risk.

So my question is, where is my residual risk assuming I act responsibly?

Look those are good questions and it’s probably the part that has least been properly impressed on the public; that vaccination is not only a personal benefit, but also a community responsibility.

Key concept is ‘heard immunity’ – which is making sure that incidences of infection are kept as low as possible in the community by keeping immunity rates as high as possible so that susceptible individuals have a lower chance of contracting a vaccine preventable illness.

Now susceptible individuals is the second key concept, because depending on the disease, that can actually be a very large number of people, well beyond the “free-riding” folks who just don’t get vaccinated.

You’ve got immune-defficient people (transplant patients, people with chronic illnesses, people with HIV, people with genetic issues).

You’ve got people who due to contradiction or medical history, can’t be vaccinated.

And you’ve got people who are too young (or potentially too old even) to receive a vaccine.

Finally, there’s the general population. Some vaccines offer life immunity to say 95% of recipients (such as Gardacil). But for some recipients, the vaccine is ineffective, it doesn’t create immunity. There’s really no way to know whether it has kicked in (though you can request tests in some cases to check such as for HB Vax).

For some vaccines, the immunity wears off naturally, which is the case for DTaP where immunity declines until it is totally worn off within 10 years. (I could enter quite a long discussion here about why I think the DTaP advice in Australia is defective compared to that in the US but would be too long winded).

Gonebatty said :

magiccar9 said :

Before everyone jumps on me… did we have these problems a couple of decades ago before we started mass vaccinating people?

To quote Bill Murray: “Morons, your bus is leaving.”

I’ll need to know about this topic sooner rather than later, so could someone please break this down for me:

I agree it’s vital to get the kids immunised, but why should I care about what other people do? I mean sure the kids didn’t do anything to deserve it but nor do kids to anything to deserve being born into stupid tree-hugging hippy families in general, and all the intellect-crippling results that go along with that.

So what is the risk to me/my kids provided I make sure mine get immunised? Is it because some vaccinations are only administered at a certain age and there is a risk some older, unvaccinated kid will carry the disease and pass it on at school age? Or is it because a kid that is too young to get vaccinated will be in public at some point and have enough contact with an unvaccinated carrier to get sick?

The other aspect is essentially a free-riding problem – the ones that don’t get vaccinated are depending on everyone else to get vaccinated and stop them coming into contact with the disease. The free-riding issue arises in many areas of life (welfare payments, etc). But I thought this was one place that sensible people could more or less insulate thmselves from risk.

So my question is, where is my residual risk assuming I act responsibly?

Grail said :

Vaccines can kill, because some doctors still don’t believe in food allergies, or simply fail to read the ingredients list: “contains nuts” it says in bold letters on the bag of peanuts, “cultured in chicken eggs” it says in bold letters on the measles vaccine.

Two of the three components of the MMRII vaccine are cultured using egg product.

The MMRII vaccine is only to be avoided where the patient has a history of hypersensitivity to egg, meaning an anaphylactic or other serious, immediate reaction to egg products.

An allergy to egg in itself does not mean the vaccine cannot be taken, and it’s up to the doctor to weight the benefit against the risk or administering it.

In a Finish study of 1.5m recipients of MMRII between 1982 and 1993, no deaths were recorded.

Grail said :

Some vaccines are cultured in hen eggs. Which kinda sucks if you’re in a Mexican standoff between your doctor who insists on diving you a measles vaccine, but you’re allergic to egg.

Vaccines can kill, because some doctors still don’t believe in food allergies, or simply fail to read the ingredients list: “contains nuts” it says in bold letters on the bag of peanuts, “cultured in chicken eggs” it says in bold letters on the measles vaccine.

Sure, most vaccines are not cultured in hen eggs, and many of those that used to be are cultured in other ways today. But just because someone refuses to get an immunisation for disease X doesn’t mean they’re some luddite who doesn’t believe that vaccination works.

This is why people don’t trust anti-vaccinators. No doctor is going to “insist” on giving you a vaccine (or anything else) that contains an ingredient you’re allergic to. Never happened to you or anyone else. Allergies are always checked before the administration of any medication. Your rant about eggs contained no useful information and only serves to fear-monger. And not very well, either.

Vaccines are simpy one of the greatest adjuncts to public health along with sanitation and clean water. I you refuse any of them, you really have no place in civilised, healthy society. Opt out of the fluvax if you must, but not if you are living or working with elderly, young or vulnerable people.

magiccar9 said :

did we have these problems a couple of decades ago before we started mass vaccinating people?

It’s been way more than a couple of decades that we have been vaccinating, dude. And back then we didn’t have or at least didn’t know about that many allergies, etc. Instead we had scores of kids dying of nasty diseases or suffer life-long after-effects.

And there are lots of things we didn’t do or didn’t have back then. Like preservatives and artificial flavouring and colouring. Plastics. Pesticides. Your argument holds no scientific value whatsoever and is just downright dumb.

Grail said :

But then how do you socialise your children?

Have you noticed the social skills of children (especially teenagers) lately?

Please vaccinate. I find it crazy that the government are having to spend additional money on tv ads and movie ads for vaccination because people aren’t vaccinating.

It should be mandatory for everyone without a medical reason. People who object should have to spend a week “volunteering” in a childrens ward of a polio/other preventable disease hospital in the developing world.

astrojax said :

well, cashed-up bogans are still bogans…

They wouldn’t be CUB mining families but rather the professionals with poor rationalisation skills who get sucked into things like Amway and Hillsong. Drinking the anti vax kool-aid isn’t much of a leap from there.

I was unfortunate enough to have an allergy which prevented me from getting the whooping cough vaccine. So at the age of about 8 I caught it and spent 9 weeks off school. It was a horrible disease, but not as scary as it would have been if I was one of those poor infants who are too young to be immunised and catch it from and older child who hasn’t been immunised.

threepaws said :

dph said :

DrKoresh said :

Stupid hippies and their fear of vaccines. I think we should stop non-immunised kids from going to school full stop, but only if we can’t ban parents from opting out of immunising their children for anything other than genuine medical conditions, like allergies to vaccine components.

Replace “Hippies” with “Bogans” & your post is spot on.

Don’t be so sure it’s bogans…

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/lower-vaccine-rates-put-wealthy-areas-at-risk-of-disease-20130410-2hlt5.html

well, cashed-up bogans are still bogans…

BimboGeek said :

It’s cruel to put those kids in school knowing there’s a high probability their classmates are incubating a reportable disease. Obviously kids who have been diagnosed should also be excluded until they are clear.

I really do prefer the idea of keeping sick children at home, rather than keeping healthy children at home because the school is culturing a particular disease this week.

BimboGeek said :

It’s very easy to send lessons and homework home and monitor the kids’ progress remotely for a week or two, maybe even including them in the classroom by skype at least some of the time. Kids on remote stations have done their school work by correspondence for decades.

Which leads me to wonder if perhaps the concept of a school with rooms is perhaps a little outdated?

But then how do you socialise your children?

Some vaccines are cultured in hen eggs. Which kinda sucks if you’re in a Mexican standoff between your doctor who insists on diving you a measles vaccine, but you’re allergic to egg.

Vaccines can kill, because some doctors still don’t believe in food allergies, or simply fail to read the ingredients list: “contains nuts” it says in bold letters on the bag of peanuts, “cultured in chicken eggs” it says in bold letters on the measles vaccine.

Sure, most vaccines are not cultured in hen eggs, and many of those that used to be are cultured in other ways today. But just because someone refuses to get an immunisation for disease X doesn’t mean they’re some luddite who doesn’t believe that vaccination works.

Yeah! I refuse to teach my kids to floss their teeth – because their gums might bleed.

And those multi-national European (off-shore!!) pharmaceutical companies aren’t very explicit about what kind of so-called ‘wax’ they put on their floss, are they. No, they’re not! Why? Hello?

Do you know how much floss-money they made last year? It’s appalling – and there’s people living in trees. I’m going to send a petition to knowledgeable people like Oprah and Dr Phil about all this flossing rubbish.

magiccar9, can I count on your support?

A couple of great articles slamming the anti-vax movement

http://www.mamamia.com.au/news/vaccination-myths-busted-by-science-cheat-sheet-on-immunisation/

http://www.mamamia.com.au/news/anti-vaccination-rhetoric-what-to-say/

It infuriates me that newborn babies lives are placed at risk because some morons choose to believe ‘celebrities’ over science. I honestly can’t put into words how angry it makes me.

In the not too distant past (like, a decade ago), babies would die of gastro. I’m talking in Canberra, not Africa. Now they are vaccinated, and babies rarely get gastro let alone die from it. Bring on the vaccinations!

magiccar9 said :

I could argue until I was blue in the face with the lot of you, and spend my night trawling through the internet looking at research however I’m never going to change any opinions, nor am I prepared to waste my time trying. You accuse me of having blinkers on and being a ‘simpleton’ however you’re the ones who fall into line and believe everything that is spoon fed to you – failing to think or look outside the square.

I stand firm behind what I said, but I also accept that certain vaccinations (eg, polio, smallpox) are critical. Others (eg, flu vaccination) aren’t, and some are downright dangerous (eg, HPV vaccine for young women).

Unfortunately the benefits of vaccination aren’t a matter of opinion, and while you may think the rest of the world is stupidly believing what the government/scientists/newspapers tell us (an incredibly arrogant and dangerous point of view) the fact is that I [i]have[/i] done more than a cursory examination of the actual evidence regarding vaccines. And judging from most of the comments here I’m not the only who’s done so. CGN has already linked you to a source that’s both referenced and informative, while still being easy to understand but if you’re interested there’s a multitude of good references that we can find for you.

At the last Folk Festival the great Martin Pearson did a brief but impassioned piece about the benefits of vaccination. The subject may sound weird given the venue, but it was great.

Some anti-vaccination boofhead heckled him without thought, and Martin gave him a good pizzling in return, finishing off by saying “I’m sorry, I can’t hear your response because of all the applause”.

Anti vaccination imbeciles? Feel free to enjoy wiping the bums of your children for the rest of their lives after they’ve been crippled by polio, and spoon feeding them while wheeling them around in their chairs. But please keep that experience to yourselves. Don’t come near my kids with your idiotic ideas and your foul diseases.

“Garlic and, like, ginger”. I shakes me head.

It doesn’t matter if the kids are unvaccinated because of an allergy to an ingredient in the vaccine, bad timing, a daft religion, or because their parents think they are smarter than all the scientists who invented it (but aren’t smart enough to have read a single paper on the topic).

It’s cruel to put those kids in school knowing there’s a high probability their classmates are incubating a reportable disease. Obviously kids who have been diagnosed should also be excluded until they are clear.

It’s very easy to send lessons and homework home and monitor the kids’ progress remotely for a week or two, maybe even including them in the classroom by skype at least some of the time. Kids on remote stations have done their school work by correspondence for decades.

Won’t somebody think of the peanuts!

magiccar9 said :

I could argue until I was blue in the face with the lot of you, and spend my night trawling through the internet looking at research however I’m never going to change any opinions, nor am I prepared to waste my time trying. You accuse me of having blinkers on and being a ‘simpleton’ however you’re the ones who fall into line and believe everything that is spoon fed to you – failing to think or look outside the square.

I stand firm behind what I said, but I also accept that certain vaccinations (eg, polio, smallpox) are critical. Others (eg, flu vaccination) aren’t, and some are downright dangerous (eg, HPV vaccine for young women).

Okay so if you are going to make a public statement like HPV vaccine is downright dangerous , I think you need to please explain that, what is the evidence for that statement ?

Here is some actual science: http://skeptoid.com/mobile/4180

IMO, any one who does not vacinate(besides of course those who legit cannot), should be charged with child abuse. You filthy swines. There are poor kids who cannot be protected from these diseases, and you are spreading disease through the community by not vaccinating. By not vaccinating, you are potentially a murderer. All in the name of being a ignorant, non science believing, halfwit, conspiracy freak.

They shouldn’t be in school period. If you don’t want to vaccinate your kid without a good medical reason (i.e. allergies) they shouldn’t be allowed to go to a public school. Vaccination works on a heard immunity basis. There thoughtlessness can cause suffering to others

magiccar9 said :

?..

I stand firm behind what I said, but I also accept that certain vaccinations (eg, polio, smallpox) are critical. Others (eg, flu vaccination) aren’t, and some are downright dangerous (eg, HPV vaccine for young women).

Cervical cancer is undeniably ‘dangerous’. I understand that this anti-HPV immunisation programme greatly reduces the risk of the more common sorts of cervical cancer (though it doesn’t replace the need for testing). The side effects are minor; what do you mean by ‘downright dangerous’? Seven million vaccinations have been given (I think it has to be given three times for full effectiveness, which is a bit rough!) and I haven’t read of any sudden mass deaths of teenagers. Which would make the papers, I think.

It’s this sort of comment that makes some people nervous for no good reason.

Even the flu vaccine can be vital for some people. I don’t do it myself, but I am not in one of the groups for whom it is particularly important.

Sorry, this is my third comment, so I obviously feel more passionately about this issue than I realised!

magiccar9 said :

did we have these problems a couple of decades ago before we started mass vaccinating people?

The main problem back then was all the kids dying from polio and other deadly diseases.

Polio just got eradicated in India. Must have been all the garlic in their diet.

That or the mass vaccination effort that has been occurring there over the past decade.

magiccar9 said :

This defies logic. How can there be an outbreak if the kiddies are vaccinated? The vaccine is supposed to stop the human body getting these illnesses. So if we follow the logical course the ones without the vaccination would be the only ones getting sick right?

Also, DrKoresh it isn’t just the ‘stupid hippies’ not getting the children vaccinated. If people stopped listening to the pharmaceutical companies for two seconds, you might actually stop to consider that a lot of the allergies and problems kids have these days could be from the millions of vaccinations the get jabbed with right from birth. Before everyone jumps on me… did we have these problems a couple of decades ago before we started mass vaccinating people?

Not very smart, huh?

The anti-vacc people seem to pick and chose the science they want to believe. Do people who don’t vaccinate their kids also deny climate change? I doubt it, they believe the science. Do they let their kids smoke, because the science isn’t settled? After all, there has been an increase in the amount of nut allergies with the decrease in smoking. Hasn’t there?

I bet you you won’t hear them on 666 saying that the science isn’t settled on climate change the way they bet on their child’s life that vaccinating is all a vast conspiracy.

To finish up on my rant, while I don’t think it is great for a child to be punished for the irresponsible, stupid, dangerous and self centred behaviour of their parents, I don’t want there kids near my kids.

magiccar9 said :

This defies logic. How can there be an outbreak if the kiddies are vaccinated? The vaccine is supposed to stop the human body getting these illnesses. So if we follow the logical course the ones without the vaccination would be the only ones getting sick right?

Also, DrKoresh it isn’t just the ‘stupid hippies’ not getting the children vaccinated. If people stopped listening to the pharmaceutical companies for two seconds, you might actually stop to consider that a lot of the allergies and problems kids have these days could be from the millions of vaccinations the get jabbed with right from birth. Before everyone jumps on me… did we have these problems a couple of decades ago before we started mass vaccinating people?

Wow! Your amazing……for the wrong reasons! It is unfortunate that there are pockets of people that think like you, that are not immunising their children and causing outbreaks of diseases that can be prevented. I immunise my children knowing that there is a small chance that they may contract a vaccine preventable disease. I also do it for people who can’t get vaccinated for health reasons and contracting whooping cough could kill them.

I am all for people to have opinions that are different to mine but please make sure it is backed by scientific evidence not by some tree hugging hippies singing kumbaya dancing round a camp fire!

Am I the only one who can make no sense of the statement in the OP?

Ms Gallagher says ACT’s chief health officer is looking at better ways to keep non-immunised children at home when cases of whooping cough or measles emerge.

Umm…you say “you can’t come to school because you’re not immunised”? How can there be a ‘better way to keep non-immunised children at home’ – what does that even mean? Call me simple – but if you’re home, you’re home – end of story. What’s this better way – you’re home in your non-immunised body, but in the classroom in spirit?

Actually…come to think of it, many of those in the anti-immunisation brigade would probably think that’s quite feasible.

magiccar9 said :

I could argue until I was blue in the face with the lot of you, and spend my night trawling through the internet looking at research however I’m never going to change any opinions, nor am I prepared to waste my time trying. You accuse me of having blinkers on and being a ‘simpleton’ however you’re the ones who fall into line and believe everything that is spoon fed to you – failing to think or look outside the square.

I stand firm behind what I said, but I also accept that certain vaccinations (eg, polio, smallpox) are critical. Others (eg, flu vaccination) aren’t, and some are downright dangerous (eg, HPV vaccine for young women).

It’s one thing to be able to ‘trawl through the internet’ to find ‘research’ to support your point of view, but quite another to actually know how to critically appraise this so-called research. The majority of the population are not trained in the critical appraisal of scientific literature, and I suspect you fall into this category magiccar9. Trawling through the internet is a great way to find pseudoscience and outright garbage masquerading as methodologically sound research. You need to know what a well-designed study should look like before you can spot the fakes.

My wife’s mother is one of those hippies the good doc refers to. Had a bit of conversion to anti vaccination and homeopathy. When I met my wife she was pretty heavily indoctrinated.

I promised her I would look at all the research and make up my mind rather then just believing what we are all spoon fed.

So I did.

And so we have vaccinated our child, and I avoid the subject with my mother-in-law, cause it isn’t worth the energy.

These people are worse then climate change deniers.

Oh conspiritards…

magiccar9 said :

…however I’m never going to change any opinions, nor am I prepared to waste my time trying.

This here folks is where someone’s true nature is revealed; where they are revealed to be a total and quite ignorant fraud.

Phrases to the effect ‘no one can convince me’, or ‘I will always believe” are what set tin-foil crackpots apart from sceptics. Because sceptics (and more broadly critical thinkers), do not approach a question by dismissing views contrary to their preconceived ones from the outset. They instead demand to be convinced, they demand evidence and they seek an informed conclusion that may change as evidence dictates over time.

It’s what sets the tin-foil crackpots apart that is precisely why rules like this and the proposed rules in NSW are needed. because these people will never listen to reason, they’ll always choose the selfish, irrational choice.

And it’s important that policy respond to that, because not everyone gets a choice at all. Some are too young for vaccines, others with impaired immunity live every day with little chance of fighting off infection. These people are put at serious risk.

Of course the freakonomics guys would have something to say about not intervening in the gene pool here …

magiccar9 said :

I could argue until I was blue in the face with the lot of you, and spend my night trawling through the internet looking at research however I’m never going to change any opinions, nor am I prepared to waste my time trying. You accuse me of having blinkers on and being a ‘simpleton’ however you’re the ones who fall into line and believe everything that is spoon fed to you – failing to think or look outside the square.

I stand firm behind what I said, but I also accept that certain vaccinations (eg, polio, smallpox) are critical. Others (eg, flu vaccination) aren’t, and some are downright dangerous (eg, HPV vaccine for young women).

Yes, please do ‘spend the night looking at research’ – and then come back on here with something more than ‘big pharma conspiracy’ rubbish. Until than people will continue to treat you as an idiot.

Do I detect a symptom of the loopy Greens’ balance of power here? (eg. the very Shane Rattenbury who supported the trashing of the CSIRO’s experimental crop a few years ago? )I doubt whether Katie would be pandering to vaccine deniers otherwise. Measles is one thing – but how about whooping cough, Katie? How do you propose to detect that in time to exclude unvaccinated kids?

As to ‘ordinary’ measles, over 150,000 people still die from it every year: http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs286/en/. Not so much in countries like Australia, obviously, because of immunisation and a proper health system, but we are not naturally immune. There has been quite a big outbreak in Wales recently, apparently, with some children contracting encephalitis, which is a rare complication of measles. That relates to the discredited MMR scare mentioned at #11.

JessP said :

magiccar9 said :

Blah Blah Blah…evil corporations…blah blah blah…I read something on the interweb..blah blah blah

I respect your choice in not vaccinating your children. Respect mine in not allowing your child to attend childcare/preschool/school with my children.

I on the other hand do not respect your “choice”. I cannot respect anyone who deliberately “chooses”, through their own ignorance, to put their own, and everyone else’s children at risk of death or debilitating disease.

magiccar9 said :

I could argue until I was blue in the face with the lot of you, and spend my night trawling through the internet looking at research however I’m never going to change any opinions, nor am I prepared to waste my time trying. You accuse me of having blinkers on and being a ‘simpleton’ however you’re the ones who fall into line and believe everything that is spoon fed to you – failing to think or look outside the square.

I stand firm behind what I said, but I also accept that certain vaccinations (eg, polio, smallpox) are critical. Others (eg, flu vaccination) aren’t, and some are downright dangerous (eg, HPV vaccine for young women).

1. Reading it on the internet doesn’t make it true.

2. Learn science. Not what technology is. Not learning rote facts. The scientific method. Read about it. Try to understand it. Then read it again. It’s a pity there’s not enough emphasis on this in science curricula in schools.

3. Learn about critical thinking skills, and specifically about how to make a reasonable assessment of the validity of a given piece of evidence. If you’re really motivated, grab a copy of “How To Read A Paper” by Trisha Greenhalgh.

4. Apply 2 & 3 to the available evidence regarding the public health issues surrounding communicable diseases and vaccination.

May the force be with you.

P.S: In what way is the HPV vaccine dangerous? (Please don’t quote the two papers I fear you’re about to…. see points 2 to 4 above).

AIDS is a government conspiracy. The government is supposed to stop people getting these illnesses through public healthcare. So if we follow the logical course the ones with AIDS got it from the government right?

I could argue until I was blue in the face with the lot of you, and spend my night trawling through the internet looking at research however I’m never going to change any opinions, nor am I prepared to waste my time trying. You accuse me of having blinkers on and being a ‘simpleton’ however you’re the ones who fall into line and believe everything that is spoon fed to you – failing to think or look outside the square.

There are no better way to control outbreaks than to either keep the unvaccinated kiddies at home, or not let them into crèche in the first place. Vaccinations are effective for most of the population, but I’m in the 2% for which the antibodies aren’t produced for whooping cough. Just spent the last two months recovering from second bout of whooping cough in ten years Also, just because your kids aren’t vaccinated doesn’t mean they’ll get something, but they may be the carrier who infects other people, such as small babies and the vulnerable.

c_c™ said :

How old are you magiccar9

Old enough to have developed independent thought processes, yet still young enough to not believe everything that is fed to me in this town.

In seriousness, I’m not exactly going to reveal that in a place like this…

c_c™ said :

How old are you magiccar9

“Immature”

How old are you magiccar9

magiccar9 said :

This defies logic. How can there be an outbreak if the kiddies are vaccinated? The vaccine is supposed to stop the human body getting these illnesses. So if we follow the logical course the ones without the vaccination would be the only ones getting sick right?

Also, DrKoresh it isn’t just the ‘stupid hippies’ not getting the children vaccinated. If people stopped listening to the pharmaceutical companies for two seconds, you might actually stop to consider that a lot of the allergies and problems kids have these days could be from the millions of vaccinations the get jabbed with right from birth. Before everyone jumps on me… did we have these problems a couple of decades ago before we started mass vaccinating people?

Mass vaccinations have been around a lot longer than two decades.

Many people in other countries still face diseases which are far less prevalent in Australia and other countries with proper immunisation programmes. They know what these diseases are really like, as do some older people in our community. There are still people who can not walk due to polio contracted during childhood, living in Australia today.

Also, remember that a child or adult can introduce a disease to a baby. There have been deaths of babies too young to be fully immunised, purely caused by the selfishness of non-immunisers. What a stupid and reckless act, and what a horrible death for the baby. Parents of these infants could tell you a lot about the true nature of whooping cough, after watching their child unable to breathe. It’s not a minor sniffle or a slight temperature we are talking about. Keeping a disease active results in this sort of exposure and in deaths.

Probably also happens to some older people whose immunisations may have worn off, at least to some extent, though I don’t know about that for sure.

dph said :

DrKoresh said :

Stupid hippies and their fear of vaccines. I think we should stop non-immunised kids from going to school full stop, but only if we can’t ban parents from opting out of immunising their children for anything other than genuine medical conditions, like allergies to vaccine components.

Replace “Hippies” with “Bogans” & your post is spot on.

Don’t be so sure it’s bogans…

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/lower-vaccine-rates-put-wealthy-areas-at-risk-of-disease-20130410-2hlt5.html

I could argue until I was blue in the face with the lot of you, and spend my night trawling through the internet looking at research however I’m never going to change any opinions, nor am I prepared to waste my time trying. You accuse me of having blinkers on and being a ‘simpleton’ however you’re the ones who fall into line and believe everything that is spoon fed to you – failing to think or look outside the square.

I stand firm behind what I said, but I also accept that certain vaccinations (eg, polio, smallpox) are critical. Others (eg, flu vaccination) aren’t, and some are downright dangerous (eg, HPV vaccine for young women).

magiccar9 said :

This defies logic. How can there be an outbreak if the kiddies are vaccinated? The vaccine is supposed to stop the human body getting these illnesses. So if we follow the logical course the ones without the vaccination would be the only ones getting sick right?

Also, DrKoresh it isn’t just the ‘stupid hippies’ not getting the children vaccinated. If people stopped listening to the pharmaceutical companies for two seconds, you might actually stop to consider that a lot of the allergies and problems kids have these days could be from the millions of vaccinations the get jabbed with right from birth. Before everyone jumps on me… did we have these problems a couple of decades ago before we started mass vaccinating people?

I respect your choice in not vaccinating your children. Respect mine in not allowing your child to attend childcare/preschool/school with my children.

The British ‘research’ that supported links between vaccination and autism was widely discredited, the paper that was written was retracted and the doctor that wrote it lost his right to practice.

http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/health-fitness/measles-surges-in-united-kingdom-years-after-vaccine-scare/story-fneuz9ev-1226647242796

DrKoresh said :

Stupid hippies and their fear of vaccines. I think we should stop non-immunised kids from going to school full stop, but only if we can’t ban parents from opting out of immunising their children for anything other than genuine medical conditions, like allergies to vaccine components.

Replace “Hippies” with “Bogans” & your post is spot on.

Another part of the problem is that young parents grew up with the benefit of not having to live under the shadow of all of the awful diseases that we’ve been vaccinating people against for the last 50 years and don’t realise just how serious many of these childhood illnesses can be.

54-11 said :

Agreed, Doc. Not sure about them being hippies, just credulous simpletons who can’t work things out for themselves. Too many people like that, across the religious/political/social spectrums.

In my experience it tends to be largely New Agers and the like who endorse the viewpoint that vaccines are harmful and while they may not be classical ‘hippies’ they’re basically the 21st century equivalent. Of course, there are a large group of regular people, like magiccar here, who are guillible enough to believe the scare stories and arrogant enough to think that it would have escaped the notice of most of the scientific/medical community.

I think it’s failing to understand the importance of herd immunity in actually preventing outbreaks (and potentially eradicting certain illnesses), and I think that if the government is going to be legislating people’s health and lifestyles then it makes no sense whatsoever to allow parents not to vaccinate for ‘conscientious’ reasons.

magiccar9 said :

DrKoresh it isn’t just the ‘stupid hippies’ not getting the children vaccinated. If people stopped listening to the pharmaceutical companies for two seconds, you might actually stop to consider that a lot of the allergies and problems kids have these days could be from the millions of vaccinations the get jabbed with right from birth. Before everyone jumps on me… did we have these problems a couple of decades ago before we started mass vaccinating people?

Computer viruses are far more common now than they were 20 years ago and people have much more contact with infected computers. I think kids must therefore be catching allergies from computer viruses. On the other hand there’s a strong argument that it’s actually caused by the fall of the Berlin wall – just look at the timing.

Actually, I’m going to go with the advice of the experts on this one and believe that the risks of vaccinations are trivial compared to the alternative unless there’s any credible evidence to the contrary.

magiccar9 said :

This defies logic. How can there be an outbreak if the kiddies are vaccinated? The vaccine is supposed to stop the human body getting these illnesses. So if we follow the logical course the ones without the vaccination would be the only ones getting sick right?

Bloody simpletons who don’t understand how vaccines work and then try and second guess them.

It was down right scary to hear two younger sounding mothers on ABC 666 yesterday morning talking about how:
A) Children’s immune systems are strong enough to fight off disease anyway
B) You should got with natural remedies like “garlic and ginger”

I’d swear they were trolling if they didn’t sound so serious.

Meanwhile the older sounding people interviewed (who notably didn’t use ‘like’ between every second word were firmly behind vaccines and had personal experience with the results of not being vaccinated.

As for your question, vaccines pre-expose the immune system to a virus, prompting it to create anti-bodies in advance. The immunity it creates is not total. In the case of the newer version of the DTaP vaccine, its effectiveness is less than the old one, but even where it isn’t effective in prevention, it still serves to reduce the severity of illness.

The immunity many vaccines create also declines over time naturally, from within a year for the flu shot, to within 10yrs for DTaP, meaning the protective effect declines over that period.

These factors mean that ‘heard immunity’ is vital to the effectiveness of a vaccine. The prevalence of disease must be reduced as much as possible in the general population in order to maximise the effect of the vaccine in an individual.

And before any of the hippies start going off about ‘toxins’ being put into their body via vaccines (another excuse one of those young and dumb mothers gave on 666 yesterday), consider:

1. Mercury is no longer in most vaccines, but even when it was, the amount was far less than what you’d get in a serve of tuna.

2. There more formaldehyde in a pear.

3. Benzalkonium chloride, an ingredient in many vaccines as an anti bacterial agent, is also used in household products like soap and surface cleaner, where you will take in far more of it than in a tiny vial of vaccine.

magiccar9 said :

This defies logic. How can there be an outbreak if the kiddies are vaccinated? The vaccine is supposed to stop the human body getting these illnesses. So if we follow the logical course the ones without the vaccination would be the only ones getting sick right?

Also, DrKoresh it isn’t just the ‘stupid hippies’ not getting the children vaccinated. If people stopped listening to the pharmaceutical companies for two seconds, you might actually stop to consider that a lot of the allergies and problems kids have these days could be from the millions of vaccinations the get jabbed with right from birth. Before everyone jumps on me… did we have these problems a couple of decades ago before we started mass vaccinating people?

Vaccinations prevent 90 to 95% from getting ill. The theory behind vaccinations is herd immunity, so that if there are fewer and fewer cases of any given disease, the disease becomes less prevalent. If you don’t vaccinate your kids, you are contributing to the ongoing retention of a disease in the community.

As for your comment about us ‘listening to pharmaceutical companies’, we’re not. We’re listening to highly trained medical personnel who are backed up by solid science and comprehensive research and testing. Your stupidly vague comment about all ‘the problems’ kids have these days is interesting. Could you please point me at some scientific research that demonstrates that vaccines cause ‘problems’, and what those ‘problems’ might be. And I’m talking creditable peer-reviewed research in established and respected medical journals – not some shyster’s website.

Honestly, you need to take off your blinkers and educate yourself. How do you think smallpox has been pretty much eradicated worldwide? Why does Australia no longer have polio epidemics?

This defies logic. How can there be an outbreak if the kiddies are vaccinated? The vaccine is supposed to stop the human body getting these illnesses. So if we follow the logical course the ones without the vaccination would be the only ones getting sick right?

Also, DrKoresh it isn’t just the ‘stupid hippies’ not getting the children vaccinated. If people stopped listening to the pharmaceutical companies for two seconds, you might actually stop to consider that a lot of the allergies and problems kids have these days could be from the millions of vaccinations the get jabbed with right from birth. Before everyone jumps on me… did we have these problems a couple of decades ago before we started mass vaccinating people?

the ACT already bans unvaccinated kids from attending school in disease outbreaks.

Agreed, Doc. Not sure about them being hippies, just credulous simpletons who can’t work things out for themselves. Too many people like that, across the religious/political/social spectrums.

Stupid hippies and their fear of vaccines. I think we should stop non-immunised kids from going to school full stop, but only if we can’t ban parents from opting out of immunising their children for anything other than genuine medical conditions, like allergies to vaccine components.