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Who Gives Way on Sandford St?

By wildturkeycanoe 28 May 2013 54

sandford street

I stopped at the left turn on Sandford St. turning into Flemington Road to go toward Franklin this afernoon. The sign said “left lane must turn left” so when the lights went green I proceeded to turn left. Unfortunately there was a poor guy on a bike in the bicycle lane to my left who started pedaling until I cut him off. I think he was going straight or turning right, but in either circumstance he was in dire straights when people like me do not know what to do in this situation. Does a car have to give way to a cyclist on his left that wants to turn across in front of the path of the car? This doesn’t make sense to me at all. The road rules on the web/TAMS do not shed any light on this.

If we are to assume cyclists turning right should use the right hand lane with vehicles turning right – imagine the chaos!!! Especially when they want to go left to rejoin the cycle lane. Putting bikes on the road with cars is the worst ever conceived idea anybody ever had and this intersection is the culmination of that craziness.

Could someone please tell me and cyclists out there what to do at this intersection before there is a serious accident?

P.S. – Sorry to raise another car vs bike argument – I just want to find out the rules for this one.

P.P.S – The guy wasn’t wearing a helmet either….


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Who Gives Way on Sandford St?
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JC 7:18 am 03 Jun 13

gazket said :

the first rule of give way. you give way to the right. If the cyclist is on the left the cyclist has to give way to his right.

There is absolutely no rule that says give way to the right. None what so ever. Using you example if I was in the right lane of a multiple lane road and wanted to go into the centre lane then the car on my left would have to give way, which is not the case. The rule in this example is I need to giveway to any vehicle in that lane.

The same applies here too, you need to give way to the bike lane. That said the argument above about trucks etc having right of way to make a left turn from the centre lane with vehicles in the left giving way is quite logical and maybe should be the law in this specific case. But it isn’t.

Comic_and_Gamer_Nerd 10:35 pm 02 Jun 13

lol

Postalgeek 9:35 pm 02 Jun 13

gazket said :

the first rule of give way. you give way to the right. If the cyclist is on the left the cyclist has to give way to his right.

Let’s take your coprolite of wisdom to its logical conclusion and turn across anyone in a left lane. Why get into a left lane when all you have to do is turn across them if you want to turn left?

bigred 7:39 pm 02 Jun 13

Can I use this to illustrate my submission to Shane’s inquiry into vulnerable road users. It illustrates my argument that the average Canberran has NFI.

gazket 5:20 pm 02 Jun 13

the first rule of give way. you give way to the right. If the cyclist is on the left the cyclist has to give way to his right.

MrBigEars 3:04 pm 02 Jun 13

tim_c said :

Google a guy by the name of “Rhys Wilkins” – the findings against him should clarify the question.

Not as much as I’d hoped. In that case, the driver had seen the cyclist, overtaken and then proceeded to turn left. The argument against was that having overtaken he should have been aware the collision was imminent.

What I want to know is when the rider comes up from behind a stopped vehicle that is turning left. A cyclist can go at 40 kph, which is much greater than the take-off speed of a light vehicle. I would argue that this is the situation that Rule 141(2) has been written to prevent. It may or may not apply to wildturkeycanoe’s situation.

carnardly 1:14 pm 31 May 13

Yes, Rhys Wilkins – he’s been discussed on here before. Wasn’t he the chap on the suspended licence who shouldn’t have been driving anyway who left hooked a cyclist in Wanniassa and killed him. And this his fan club came on here and stood up for him and the poor victim’s eyesight.

The friend never did actually respond to the question on “so why *was* Rhys driving the car when he shouldn’t have been…”

tim_c 9:37 am 31 May 13

Google a guy by the name of “Rhys Wilkins” – the findings against him should clarify the question.

TheBusDriver 9:24 pm 30 May 13

wildturkeycanoe said :

Gee, take a chill pill!! Blind spots are called so for a reason and the mirrors on the van are roadworthy, else the car wouldn’t be registered, DUH. Please explain what you mean by roadworthy. Even with the panoramic wide view mirrors a cyclist in the dark with or without lights will look like anything else in the background such as a street light. The van is a company vehicle, not mine. Should I tell my employer I won’t drive the van until he gets a sliding door with window installed or attach some fancy big parabolic mirrors which will block my vision at the “A” pillar, creating yet another blind spot when approaching intersections?
As for my attitude as a road user – I’ll raise you on your attitude as a judgmental moron. How did you come up with your opinion from up there on your high horse? My attitude on the roads is drive to survive – I’m also a motorcyclist and understand fully the dangers of not being aware of your surrounds. Common sense is something nobody should use, that is the first thing taught in workplace safety training. Your common sense and my common sense are not the same. I might not be so common. If we have a rule for everyone to follow, that makes a lot more sense.

Now here is some common sense – the legal aspect of the car having to give way because they are crossing over the lane of traffic of the bicycle – WRONG. The sign says “left lane must turn left”, so the car is not crossing any other vehicle’s path, including the cyclist. The cyclist can’t ignore the road sign and go straight or right from the left lane either, so HE is at fault, not the car. Can anyone find a ruling that says cyclists can disobey a road sign and get away with it?

I am chill, I’m just expressing an opinion. Again, you’re trying to pass the buck on your responsability.
Yes, if you are aware of a problem on the company vehicle you are driving, you should tell your supervisor. I’be heard plentry of stories of professional drivers who were aware of issues, didn’t report them, and when that issue was a factor in an accident, they were slammed for not reporting it. If you don’t report it,you leave yourself liable. If you do report it, and your employer does nothing about it, they’re lible. It’s called covering your ass. It is also called stepping up and taking responsability. That’s what professional drivers do.
Yes, if you have a blind spot, a small fish eye mirror attached to your main mirrow will take care of that. They cost less than $10 from most car shops. Once again, no excuses.

Yes the sign says left lane must turn left. And the arrows are in the car lane, not the bike lane. Once again, common sense.

To push the agenda that you are in the right is once again reason why you should not be driving. But yeah, you be sure to use those arguments if you ever have an accident like that. I’m sure the magistrate will not be impressed.

Leon 8:33 am 30 May 13

BicycleCanberra, you’re probably referring to the ACT Road Rules Handbook, which is not always consistent with the ACT Road Rules.

The ACT Road Rules are at http://www.legislation.act.gov.au//ni/db_37271/default.asp, they haven’t been updated since 2010, and they don’t say “If in doubt, be prepared to give way to all other vehicles.”

BicycleCanberra said :

Leon said :

Rule 62 requires a turning driver to give way to “any pedestrian at or near the intersection who is on the road the driver is entering.” It does NOT require a driver to give way to a cyclist who is crossing between footpaths or shared paths.[/quote>

The ACT road rules have been updated this year and while the Give way rule doesn’t mention cyclists in absolute terms it does say ” If in doubt, be prepared to give way to all other vehicles.”
If there is a bicycle light with a walk light then the driver must give way to cyclists.

54-11 1:49 am 30 May 13

TheBusDriver said :

wildturkeycanoe said :

Great to see that I am one of many confused over this. I was in a van with minimal to nil vision to my left behind the passenger window. Also, it was evening and hard to see the bike, he didn’t have hi viz or lights. If the cyclist stops short of the cycle lane stop marking, can’t be seen by the car, well heaven knows what would happen in a collision. I guess the driver is always at fault….

Wildturkey, your lack of knowledge of road rules, lack of common sense and unwillingness to take responsibility for you actions astounds me. First, please, get some roadworthy mirrors for your van so you don’t use poor visibility as an excuse again. If you can’t see what is beside you, you’re an accident waiting to happen. Next, take responsibility, if you have poor vision, who’s fault is that? YOURS! Not the cyclists. Thirdly, get some common sense.
I drive great big 2.4 metre wide 9-10 metre long buses every week. They have no rear view cameras. Just side mirrors. Yet I make it a part of my job to be constantly checking those mirrors and knowing what is around me. I always check them when stopped at intersections. Also, you see those big “do not pass turning vehicle” signs on the back? We despite having them, when I do the occasional left turn from the right lane (perfectly legal in a large vehicle with those signs, and often needed in turns into narrow roads), I always check my mirrors and if some dipshit had ignored my indicators and come up my side (happens when when I am straddling both lanes) I don’t sit there and think well I have right of way so I can drive over them. I let them go and then do the turn. I have copped a lot of horn blasts from erring on the side of caution but I’d rather be cautious than injure or kill someone.
Your attitude as a road user sucks. How about you give me your rego so that the next time I encounter you on a double landed round about I can use my legal right of way to use both lanes and shove your car sideways off of the roundabout? There’s road rules and there’s common sense, something you seem to be lacking.
As I have said and others have said, you should stop driving until you have this one figured out. You and your van are a clear danger to other road users.

Jeez, if you’re as angry as this when you drive, we all have a problem.

Aeek 12:57 am 30 May 13

wildturkeycanoe said :

WRONG. The sign says “left lane must turn left”, so the car is not crossing any other vehicle’s path, including the cyclist. The cyclist can’t ignore the road sign and go straight or right from the left lane either, so HE is at fault, not the car. Can anyone find a ruling that says cyclists can disobey a road sign and get away with it?

That’s the problem for a cyclist. In SA its turn left only except for bicycles or buses, here its just buses. So you expect a cyclist going straight to be in the next lane? which conflicts with that stupid bike lane on the left.

Less confident cyclists hate being between lanes of traffic. I hate being expected to turn across traffic, or having traffic turning on top of me. My favorite green lane is southbound on Adelaide Ave by the playing fields. Its so long that if its iffy to cross ahead of me, its a no brainer to pass behind.
I understand some cyclists fear it because its so long.

wildturkeycanoe 10:31 pm 29 May 13

TheBusDriver said :

wildturkeycanoe said :

Great to see that I am one of many confused over this. I was in a van with minimal to nil vision to my left behind the passenger window. Also, it was evening and hard to see the bike, he didn’t have hi viz or lights. If the cyclist stops short of the cycle lane stop marking, can’t be seen by the car, well heaven knows what would happen in a collision. I guess the driver is always at fault….

Wildturkey, your lack of knowledge of road rules, lack of common sense and unwillingness to take responsibility for you actions astounds me. First, please, get some roadworthy mirrors for your van so you don’t use poor visibility as an excuse again. If you can’t see what is beside you, you’re an accident waiting to happen. Next, take responsibility, if you have poor vision, who’s fault is that? YOURS! Not the cyclists. Thirdly, get some common sense.
I drive great big 2.4 metre wide 9-10 metre long buses every week. They have no rear view cameras. Just side mirrors. Yet I make it a part of my job to be constantly checking those mirrors and knowing what is around me. I always check them when stopped at intersections. Also, you see those big “do not pass turning vehicle” signs on the back? We despite having them, when I do the occasional left turn from the right lane (perfectly legal in a large vehicle with those signs, and often needed in turns into narrow roads), I always check my mirrors and if some dipshit had ignored my indicators and come up my side (happens when when I am straddling both lanes) I don’t sit there and think well I have right of way so I can drive over them. I let them go and then do the turn. I have copped a lot of horn blasts from erring on the side of caution but I’d rather be cautious than injure or kill someone.
Your attitude as a road user sucks. How about you give me your rego so that the next time I encounter you on a double landed round about I can use my legal right of way to use both lanes and shove your car sideways off of the roundabout? There’s road rules and there’s common sense, something you seem to be lacking.
As I have said and others have said, you should stop driving until you have this one figured out. You and your van are a clear danger to other road users.

Gee, take a chill pill!! Blind spots are called so for a reason and the mirrors on the van are roadworthy, else the car wouldn’t be registered, DUH. Please explain what you mean by roadworthy. Even with the panoramic wide view mirrors a cyclist in the dark with or without lights will look like anything else in the background such as a street light. The van is a company vehicle, not mine. Should I tell my employer I won’t drive the van until he gets a sliding door with window installed or attach some fancy big parabolic mirrors which will block my vision at the “A” pillar, creating yet another blind spot when approaching intersections?
As for my attitude as a road user – I’ll raise you on your attitude as a judgmental moron. How did you come up with your opinion from up there on your high horse? My attitude on the roads is drive to survive – I’m also a motorcyclist and understand fully the dangers of not being aware of your surrounds. Common sense is something nobody should use, that is the first thing taught in workplace safety training. Your common sense and my common sense are not the same. I might not be so common. If we have a rule for everyone to follow, that makes a lot more sense.

Now here is some common sense – the legal aspect of the car having to give way because they are crossing over the lane of traffic of the bicycle – WRONG. The sign says “left lane must turn left”, so the car is not crossing any other vehicle’s path, including the cyclist. The cyclist can’t ignore the road sign and go straight or right from the left lane either, so HE is at fault, not the car. Can anyone find a ruling that says cyclists can disobey a road sign and get away with it?

Grrrr 1:47 pm 29 May 13

vulpior said :

For a right-turning cyclist, it would be good to see an arrangement where they could get ahead of the traffic in the straight ahead/right turn lane.

You mean, like a hook turn effectively lets them do?

Deckard said :

There is a 3rd option which they use in some of the European cities I’ve ridden in. It’s kind of like a Melbourne hook turn

“Melbourne hook turn”? How many times does some one have to say “hook turn” in this thread before you realise that cyclists are allowed to perform a hook turn at any intersection in this country?

Anyone here not know what a hook turn is? It’s detailed in the NRR..

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