'You put your body on the frontline': police union says spit hoods reasonable in response to grubby act

Pamela Collett Why should people think it is acceptable to spit at police (or anyone!) and not have them take steps to protect themselves?

Hannah Brennan it’s not acceptable to spit on people. But that doesn’t mean spit hoods are the only acceptable response. They’ve killed people. They’re disproportionately used on first Nations people. They haven’t been banned in multiple jurisdictions across the globe on the whim of some greenies. There’s genuine issues with them and their use

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/sep/23/spit-hood-ban-passes-south-australian-parliament-five-years-after-indigenous-mans-death

Hannah Brennan https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/02/nyregion/daniel-prude-rochester-police.html

Chris Kellahan What would you suggest as a way to protect emergency services from those spitting at them? When normal verbal de-escalation isn’t working? What is the next step to securely restrain people while keeping them and those restraining them safe? Without knowing the details of those cases, were there underlying injuries/medical conditions, were the hoods used within their expected use – positioning, duration etc? Not going to comment on cases I don’t have knowledge of other than to say they are tragic for all involved.

Hannah Brennan PPE is all I can suggest. Goggles and masks if you don’t have a face shield. Like I said, I’m not an expert in this field, but there are experts out there advocating for change and presumably they’ll be presenting options. But even if there isn’t any better option, that doesn’t mean you get to do the torture one. Maybe it means you get spat in sometimes, like before spit hoods were available. Which is horrible, so I hope those experts do have better options for you

Chris Kellahan so it seems we are back to let people be spat on, rather than stop those doing the spitting. Until those other options become available, I’ll take what is currently the option available to keep me and my colleagues safe.

Hannah Brennan What exactly is the concern with people being spat on? Germs? We all live in a city where people freely roam about spreading COVID because they refuse to isolate, wear a mask, or even make an effort to stand a few metres away from others.

Christine Stevens are you trying to equate someone spitting in your face with someone not standing far enough away from you? You realise one of these is assault?
Having someone think its ok to spit in your face is insulting, degrading and disgusting. To do that to anyone is reprehensible.
It has never been ok to spit on anyone, why would that change now we have concerns for covid and because people may not be doing the right thing and isolating? What other behaviours do you now count as acceptable since people aren’t following covid guidelines?

Pamela Collett you do their job then

Hannah Brennan I don’t count spitting on someone as acceptable. I also don’t count infecting someone with COVID (or any other infectious disease) acceptable. One is a crime–battery, not assault–and the other isn’t. Why is that?

Christine Stevens legal jargon aside, one is generally done with intent and one is with lack of thought for others (or not caring). Yes neither are good, but just because one is an offence and the other isn’t, isn’t a reason for either to be diminished

Dan Rayner should I also not wear a short skirt to avoid harassment or assault? Or not buy expensive things so they aren’t a temptation to be stollen?
I do wear PPE. That doesn’t stop people spitting. If we get to a day where PPE is no longer worn in all instances for health professionals again do I need to treat every patient as if they will spit on me? Should I wear full PPE when out to dinner with family to stop a random person spitting on me? What about head gear to stop a punch?
While I’m all for personal protection, why is this the responsibility of the person being attacked to do things to prevent harm rather than the onus being on the person committing the wrong behaviour to not do that in the first place?

Hannah Brennan But one—infecting someone with COVID—is diminished by not being an offence. Spitting is a battery whether it infects the target or not.

Christine Stevens So petition to have that an offence. It not being one doesn’t make spitting any less vile. Nor has it got anything to do with the original content of this post.

Pamela Collett why do people feel the need to spit on people?

Hannah Brennan I didn’t say it had anything to do with how vile spitting may or may not be. Regardless of how vile, insulting, degrading, or disgusting someone may consider spitting on another person, the law limits acceptable defensive responses to a battery. I’m petitioning to stop the use of spit hoods. That has everything to do with the original content of this post.

Chris Kellahan Oh, so it’s up to first responders to carry all the liability (to have PPE protection) ALL the time instead of the perpetrators having any responsibility or accountability for their spitting & biting actions – no consequences at all?
Not all of those that are arrested spit & bite, but only those that that DO so may have a spit hood placed on them – so if you don’t spit or bite, then there is no issue right?
Just stop spitting & biting – simple concept really…then this conversation wouldn’t even be happening…

Tim Hollo how do you know it as “fully grown blokes” who were spat at? And at the end of the day does it matter the gender of the police? I, as a female paramedic, was being supported by a female police officer trying to assist a drunk female teenager who spat in my face and would have done so again if given the opportunity. What do you propose is done in that situation? Let an inebriated teenager go when she has no capacity to make any decisions? Allow her to run off into traffic? We owe people a duty of care but also should have the right to be safe in our workplace and not be assaulted.

Hannah Brennan wear a face shield like the article suggests? I’m no expert in this area, but unless you’re preemptively hooding people in case they spit, which sounds pretty authoritarian to me, then wearing PPE seems like the only way to avoid an unexpected spit hitting your person. Putting a spit hood on someone after you’ve been spat on feels like punishment, not prevention

Chris Kellahan When the spit stays on their face, they won’t spit again soon…
In pre-covid days no-one carried face shields regularly. They can also become their own safety issue if someone is trying to assault you.
We don’t use spit hoods in ambulance. Best we have is (now) a face mask or (previously only option) an oxygen mask. Both of which can be moved off by head movements. I’d just rather people didn’t spit at others, but it seems that’s too much to ask of some in our society.
A spit hood stops you being spat on, so that’s prevention in my mind. Not saying they should routinely be put on everyone in case they spit, but if someone has already spat/tried to spit at you or has a significant history of the same why should that behaviour be allowed?
Spitting is one of the frequent threats we get. Most of the time it can be reasonably de-escalated – a simple “I’d prefer it if you didn’t spit at me, that’s not a nice thing to do” actually goes a long way with many people. Unfortunately that’s not always the case.

Tim Hollo it doesnt matter who is weilding a weapon but their intent to inflict harm and sometimes deesculation isnt possible. I get the point that inappropriate use of force but IMO banning everything isnt the answer, just leaves the public vunerable.

Hannah Brennan well said

Tim Hollo I would have thought putting these hoods on people sends the clear message you are scared of them spitting on you, thus increasing the instances of the very thing you’re trying to prevent.

And how does it work? Do you wait until you’ve been spat on and then fit it (punishment after the fact) or do we allow police to put one on every person they’re detaining “just in case”? The former seems a bit gate-horse-bolted and the latter is heading further down a very dark road.

I guess the real question is; when did our police abandon the Peelian principles, and why?

Tim Hollo When police talk like this, it seems like they have an “us vs them” mindset. Militarized language. Militarized uniforms and equipment. Militarized mindset. Who exactly are they at war with?

Tim Hollo 🤣🤣🤣 you have no idea

Tim Hollo not sure any brut force was insinuated… we train and employ the police to enforce the law – and it should not be at their expense in any sense..

I’ve seen some strong violent 16 years olds girls and women whom under the influence of drugs or alcohol or when in a psychotic state are not easy to subdue.

The onus is not on police to accept any “assault” on their person in the undertaking of their duties – yes spitting and poo throwing, biting, kicking are all assault.

I’d love to see the Greens or anyone else objecting to walk a week in the polices shoes..

Christine Stevens “militarised” they don’t want to be assaulted either but someone needs to deal with people like “this young lady” would you like to have a crack at the job Christine sounds like you are volunteering..

Tim Hollo yourself and many others here have zero capabilities of understanding the issues all frontline workers face, regardless of scale (ie Canb/Syd). As an adult yourself, scope outside your desires and reasons which do not sync with law enforcement and requirement to stay & feel relatively safe.

Julz Lo No, I’m not volunteering. I’ve already got a job. That allows me to earn money to pay taxes that fund the operations of ACT Policing. Other people, including police, manage to deal with people like that young lady without using spit hoods. I want my local police force to do the same. I want them to do their jobs with the least amount of violence necessary, and I absolutely don’t want them to be in a position to have the final say on what constitutes necessary levels of violence. Professional standards, transparency, and accountability are important for any job, but especially those that have been granted extra privileges for their role in keeping the peace and preserving public safety.

Tim Hollo Have you noticed how many of the “baying for blood” crowd throw out the old “well why don’t YOU go do their job” line whenever police are criticised, but they never seem to hold themselves to the same standards when criticising legislators and other public servants? Especially legislators they didn’t vote for. Oh, and magistrates. So many of them have a great deal to say about magistrates, with no concern for the fact that they’ve never sat on the bench or, you know, been to law school, themselves. 😉

Tim Hollo would you like to be spat on for doing your job

Tim Hollo I can’t believe you think it’s okay for her to get away with spitting at the police and the police not allowed to protect themselves. She is the type that cause teachers to leave teaching. No consequences for any bad behaviour all their lives and then it’s oh poor baby. Heads up. She is nearly an adult.

Robyn Holder I wonder how many teachers would force spit hoods on children if they were allowed to get away with it? How many would use Taxers or batons. Fortunately, they’re not allowed. Not even if a child spits on them.it’s probably best if teachers that would do those things to children leave the profession.

Robyn Holder it’s not a question of it being ok to spit. It’s a question of whether using what is increasingly widely acknowledged as a torture device is an appropriate response. If your child was badly behaved, would you use extreme force and coercion to punish them, or would you seek to find a constructive way through?

Josette Noble if someone spat at me for doing my job, I would firstly seek to understand why, and then work to ensure it didn’t happen again. I certainly wouldn’t abuse the person who did so. That would never work to create any kind of positive change for either of us.

Tim Hollo wearing a spit mask is not abuse it’s protection from diseases

Josette Noble https://www.amnesty.org.au/use-of-spithoods-can-amount-to-torture-in-youth-detention-or-anywhere-else/

Josette Noble https://www.ntnews.com.au/news/indigenous-affairs/investigation-exposes-which-states-continue-to-use-spit-hoods-on-children/news-story/5ec097650f01c0d5dd46e363e8d7fc31?amp&nk=57d5e28f24684674a88878fffe4e6e42-1662023962

Josette Noble https://humanrights.gov.au/sites/default/files/2022-03-08_-_anzccg_-_ban_spit_hoods_and_mrc_0.docx

Tim and Christine are going to sit down and reason with a drunk crack head. Yeah, ok… Maybe you could try hugging it out, that might work.

Christine Stevens you know the Police didn’t come up with or design and implement the spit hoods without “public advocacy”?

The use of any devices in policing ho through enormous scrutiny and testing as well as consultancy with advocacy groups and health professionals.

Julz Lo Assuming that’s true (and you’ve provided no evidence that it is), then it seems there needs to be a big more scrutiny. Definitely from advocacy groups and health professionals, and also from human rights authorities.

It might also be nice if those advocacy groups and medical professionals, as well as the police and other organisations that use spit hoods, could provide some data on the number of uses and the number of injuries and deaths associated with their use.

Tim Hollo I guess its all about perception. I don’t see a spit hood as brute force.I see it as a perfectly acceptable solution to someone spitting. Safe for the spitter and safe for everyone having to deal with them.
My idea of brute force would be gagging her.
What technique did you have in mind to get someone to stop spitting?

Christine Stevens spit hoods were the subject of a Royal Commission which after much consideration with advocacy groups including the Human Rights Commission were cleared for use.

You need to consider the human rights of both sides- the police have the right to do their job without their persons being violated also. If someone’s spitting it’s is assault of their person.

Two sides to every story..

They might be paid to do a job but what if the spitter has hepatitis or AID’s or any other disease which could result in living with degraded health for the long term?

Holly Molly They’re not safe for the spitter when they choke or die.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/02/nyregion/daniel-prude-rochester-police.html

Julz Lo And yet one state has banned their use entirely, 3 other states have stopped using them, at least in the case of minors, and the ACT Human Rights Commission is calling for them to be banned here. Maybe views have changed.

You mean the way every one of us can be infected with COVID, which could result in death, or living with degraded health for the long term? And unless it’s when we’re at work, we’re most likely not even getting paid.

Christine Stevens she wasn’t minor enough to have been in possession of alcohol and consume it…

Consequences – we would not need the hoods at all, if this and other individuals chose not to spit..

Our police officers pay taxes also..

We mambepambe the shit out of everyone and as a consequence there is less consequence everyday..

In my opinion if it was my child I’d completely violate her human right and make her clean the police station, make coffee and cakes and serve all the officers for a week… I have raised 4 fine sons and none of them spit at another human or even at the ground, preferring a tissue.

So if your boss in your job could do anything to you because he pays your salary – maybe if he or a visitor to your workplace spat on you – in your logic it would be ok as he pays you(in your argument you pay taxes and therefore the salary of the police)… would that also be ok?

Christine Stevens the real shame is if someone spat on you-you’d probably call the police…

Christine Stevens thats one person, out of how many that have been placed in these hoods? There is a risk with anything. People have choices. And what about the risk to police officers? Or does the risk to them not matter.

Julz Lo I’m been spat on, and I’ve never called the police to deal with it. It’s an unpleasant experience, but at the end of the day, spit happens. I’ve been much more concerned about being coughed on in public recently, but I didn’t call the police about that, either.

And I’ve also never said that it didn’t matter if someone was a minor or not, if they were old enough to do X, they deserved whatever was done to them. Did you delete that comment or was it removed for you?

The girl is still a minor, even if she’s been accused of a crime.

Holly Molly We don’t know how many have been placed in these hoods, in part because the police don’t necessarily provide that information. Yes, risk to police also matters. How many police have been injured from being spat on? Again, we don’t know, in part because the police don’t provide that information.

Christine Stevens I imagine the number of police that have been spat on would exponentially exceed the number of perpetrators that have been injured with the use of one of these hoods. No one should have to accept being spat on as part of their job. Its disgusting. The perpetrator has a choice, don’t spit and you don’t end up in a hood.
I don’t imagine putting a hood on someone is their first line of action. You’d think it was the last resort after asking them not to.

Christine Stevens Christine Stevens no I didn’t remove it the way you are replying it’s leaving it in a comment above..

I’m sorry that you were spat on and not paid for the experience.

Minor or not at 16 she should know the difference between “right” and spitting on someone which is “wrong”..

Julz Lo No, not minor or not. Clearly a minor. And whether she knew the difference between right and wrong, she still has rights.

I see your previous comment now, so I think I tried to respond while you were editing it, FB wouldn’t let me, and then it took a while for the new edited version to be visible to me.

Good for you for being honest about your desire to violate your childrens’ human rights. I don’t think any of the things you mentioned qualify, and I seriously doubt ACT Policing would take you up on the offer, but I’m sure if you try, you’ll think of something that would be a legitimate human rights violation. If not, maybe your 4 fine sons can help you with that.

Nothing I’ve said implies that bosses can do whatever they want to employees, or that taxpayers can do whatever they want to police. Taxpayers can, through their legislators, help set standards for police behaviour, and consequences (there’s that word you like so much) for violating them. And they should. Because there are plenty of examples of what can happen when police abuse their power. I was reading just this morning about a class-action lawsuit filed against the Victorian government over excessive use of force by police.

Tim Hollo how many times have you been spat on?

Tim Hollo is that the same blood that people purposely bite the inside of their cheeks to (checks notes……) spit at police. The same blood that takes six months to wait and see if someone has contracted an infectious disease, did you also assume all police officers are heavily armed fully grown blokes. Asking for a friend of course.

Tim Hollo you tell me what you would do faced with that. Let her spit and kick? She is not a baby and knew what she was doing, drunk or not. And of course you try a gentler way first which I am sure the police did. Hardly a torture device if the picture is what they use here. I have seen pictures of American one which look like just bags over their heads.
Oh and my children would not spit.

Tim Hollo Oh gosh, how noble of you ‘hypothetically’ with your response of “if someone spat at me for doing my job, I would firstly seek to understand why, and then work to ensure it didn’t happen again. I certainly wouldn’t abuse the person who did so” – I do hope you do get spat on and bitten whilst at work one day and then not to react negatively, but just to calmly chat with them so they can resolve their issues towards you 😉

Peter de Vries lol was thinking the same! Christine and Tim should go out on a date night

Holly Molly Being spat on isn’t the same thing as being injured from being spat on.

Of course nobody should have to accept being spat on as part of their job. But nor should they be allowed to retaliate any way they choose. If a child spits on a teacher, the teacher doesn’t get to put a spit hood over the child’s head. Or handcuff them. Or lock them in a cage. Neither does a barista or taxi driver or a plumber.

Tim Hollo how about you try walking in the police shoes. Go out with them when they arrest nasty, vicious young repeat offenders. Then you might have a different view. Sitting in the Assembly in a nice safe comfortable place is not the real world. So stop criticising and start helping the emergency service workers do their jobs safely. 😡👎

Bec Andrews police are humans but the other is “a feral animal”. I see what you did there. Dehumanising. Nice.

Tim Hollo, she said “acts like a feral animal”.

Perhaps if you don’t try to verbal people, you’d understand that police shouldn’t be subject to this type of disgraceful behaviour whilst they’re just trying to do their jobs.

Bec Andrews hear hear

Tim Hollo Please reflect on your own narrative as you implore others to do.

To pontificate as you have done reveals more about your own thinking than unacceptable policing methods.

I think that if you wish to engage in what is a contentious social policy issue, you need to nuance your language more carefully, and avoid inflammatory language without providing strong evidence of brutal police behaviour which you assert.

Let me very politely suggest that if you feel, and rightly so, that dealing with children requires a different policing approach, then you owe it to the public to explain how this should be done, instead of hectoring and maligning the police including others who may have a different view to yours.

The fact that the individual is 16 years old is a moot point. What is at issue is whether she was treated in accordance with acceptable and observable community policing standards in the circumstance of her behaviour and following lawful detention.

If you think otherwise, and if you think her treatment was unwarranted, then make your case instead of being preachy?

Public discourse is only improved if you follow the example of Hannah Brennan whose narrative seeks to explain and not condemn.

Tim Hollo Oh crikey Tim – yes all people are humans – but most decent don’t spit and bite other humans, hence Bec’s comment of “If the aggressor wants to act like a feral animal” – however you so slyly took it out of context with “police are humans but the other is “a feral animal”. I see what you did there. Dehumanising. Nice” – wow, nothing about ‘Dehumanising” but stating the fact as it is for their behaviour

Terry West if I could like this response twice I would!!

June Nassar Kirk the greens need to look in the mirror and give themselves an uppercut

June Nassar Kirk they’re just trying to get votes from certain sectors of the community, as no normal people could vote them in. Look at the fed greens. Politics is all about compromise to get things done. They are the party of no compromise

Simon Mead exactly! You are dead right Simon, this is so not the Greens when it was formed by Bob Brown.

Christine Stevens genuine question, have you worked as a police officer and dealt with violent people resisting arrest?

Michael Lemmey I have dealt with violent people. I have never worked as a police officer.

Now a genuine question for you. If police officers in other jurisdictions can manage to do their jobs without spit hoods, without firearms, why can’t police in the ACT?

And another. If police need spit hoods to deal with allegedly violent people, do teachers and parents? The case in question involved a 16-year-old child, after all.

And one final genuine question. Have you ever been arrested or detained by police?

Christine Stevens which jurisdictions have police that do not use guns? Other jurisdictions have very severe penalties for assaulting a police officer or emergency service worker. How many ambulance offices have been sat at whilst trying to assist an angry injured person.

Christine Stevens, why aren’t you out there sorting out our badly behaving angels?

Tom Porter The UK and New Zealand, among others. I don’t know how many ambulance officers have been spat at. Do you think they should be allowed to use spit hoods, too? Tazers? Firearms?

Sher Bee Because I’m busy doing the job, earning the money to pay the salaries of the police. Police I expect to do their jobs according to their own professional standards. And to raise their professional standards when they fall short.

Christine Stevens so no police forces in NSW. Can you point out where I suggested ambulance officers an emergency services should carry weapons. What is your response to someone you are dealing with who becomes violent and attacks you, then spits in your face?

Tom Porter clearly she lives in a fantasy world, where drug ragging badly behaving people are considered lovely.

Tom Porter I didn’t say anything about police in NSW. And I didn’t say that you suggested that ambulance officers and emergency workers should carry weapons or spit hoods. I asked you if you thought they should.

My response to a person attacking me is to defend myself. By law, there are limits on how I can do that. The same is true for police officers, although they are given more options and more leeway than other Australians. But there are still limits. For me, for you, for everybody. Even police. I’d like to see more limits put in place for police officers. And more transparency and accountability with regards to use of force and serious (category 2, 3, and 4) conduct complaints.

Sher Bee I live in the very real world, in a country that is governed according to the rule of law. And where one of the foundational elements of the rule of law is the presumption of innocence. Which means criminal guilt is not decided by police, or by people in social media comment sections.

Police elsewhere manage to do their jobs without spit hoods. So can ACT police. I’ve been spat on and never felt the need to use a spit hood, or to kill the person who spat on me.

I understand the concerns police have over being infected with a dangerous pathogen from a person spitting on them. Everybody in the ACT faces similar health risks from being infected with COVID.

Christine Stevens you really have no idea. You live in a fantasy world with the Greens

Shayne Borger Any time you’re ready to share your “real world” experiences of the hard life on the streets as an ACT cop, I’m all eyes. Preferably with evidence that you’re not just another rando making up stories for the social media comment section.

Christine Stevens “I pay taxes so I pay your wages”… always love that argument. I’ll give you your 20c back…

Hannah Brennan Are you an ACT police officer?

Christine Stevens police in all jurisdictions do have access to firearms as required and each jurisdiction, country, state, have unique circumstances which necessitate the carrying of such weapons, I would suggest the police are best qualified to make such determinations.

The second question is not a very good comparison, each situation is dealing with very different people, circumstances and procedures, so trying to compare is a rather moot point. We are discussing the need for harm reduction tools to be employed by the police when dealing with violent offenders.

I haven’t been arrested, as I haven’t engaged in an activity that would require it. But, I do have a healthy respect for law and law enforcement, so I would probably be quite cooperative, negating the use of any force by a police officer.

The point here is, police should have at their disposal a variety of tools to make a lawful arrest, whilst ensuring the safety of themselves and the offender.

Michael Lemmey Having access to firearms is not the same as wearing them as sidearms. Or having access to them when not on duty. I would suggest that the police are definitely not the best qualified to make such determinations. Just like the military, police organisations need outside oversight.

Sorry you didn’t like my second genuine question and so didn’t bother to answer it.

Whether or not any particular individual is arrested or not has little to do with whether or not they’ve engaged in unlawful activities that they could be arrested for. Being cooperative doesn’t guarantee that force won’t be used against you.

Yes, police should have a variety of tools at their disposal to make a lawful arrest. The question here is whether a spit hood should be one of them. There are some additional questions about their use in situations that do not involve making a lawful arrest. Banning them would deal presumably deal with those situations, too.

Christine Stevens yes. A spit hood is a more than reasonable tool to employ to prevent an individual from spitting on police officers.

Michael Lemmey I disagree, so I’m glad that it’s not your call to make. Luckily, it’s a decision that can be made by our democratically-elected legislators. Preferably after consultation with ALL stakeholders, including medical authorities and human rights organisations.

Christine Stevens and they’ll decide that spit hoods are a reasonable tool to use. Thankfully you won’t have any say on the matter.

Michael Lemmey I remember people saying the same thing about South Australia. And then spit hoods were banned. I’m happy to wait and see what happens here.

Christine Stevens yes. It may be in one state, which was run on an emotional campaign based on a specific event, but not in the larger states. There’s no political or public pressure.

Michael Lemmey ACT legislators might be proactive enough to ban them before someone dies. There definitely seems to be some efforts from the Liberals, AFPA, and others to make crime, policing, sentencing, etc into a political issue, and I wouldn’t be surprised to see their efforts help get this spit hood issue (and other policing/corrections human rights issues) more attention.

Christine Stevens no, like all politicians they are reactive, ACT Labor have no reason to ban them.

Christine Stevens umm not quite the same scenario with “I understand the concerns police have over being infected with a dangerous pathogen from a person spitting on them. Everybody in the ACT faces similar health risks from being infected with COVID” – I doubt most citizens in the ACT going about their normal business are being spat on or bitten by random people – so no, it is NOT the same comparison that “Everybody in the ACT faces similar health risks from being infected with COVID” – seriously, wow!
I go shopping, out to restaurants and to my work place daily etc – yes, I may possibly get exposed to covid accidentally from someone but have never been INTENTIONALLY been spat on or bitten in these scenarios – big difference

Christine Stevens so, with your responses of “Because I’m busy doing the job, earning the money to pay the salaries of the police. Police I expect to do their jobs according to their own professional standards” & “Any time you’re ready to share your “real world” experiences of the hard life on the streets as an ACT cop, I’m all eyes” – I ask you if you have actually ever gone out and spent days/nights with the ACT cops whilst apprehending ‘alleged’ crimes and arresting ‘alleged’ offenders who ‘allegedly’ spit and bite during arrest?
Have you actually physically been there during these times to correctly proclaim your stance of the “”real world” experiences of the hard life on the streets as an ACT cop”?
Or do you just make assertions from your desk behind a computer?

Nada Krstin I didn’t say anything about people going about their regular business being spat on. People don’t have to intentionally spit on or bite another person to infect them with COVID. I go out too, and I see people coughing, standing close to other people even when there’s space to distance, etc. If they’re infecting other people with COVID, there’s nothing accidental about it.

Nada Krstin Of course I don’t go out and watch police do their jobs. I don’t go out and watch bakers or plumbers or heart surgeons or lawyers do their jobs, either. Do you? Yes, I’ve been physically present when people have been detained or arrested by police. No, I’ve never been one of them. Have you? I also read a fascinating piece in the Canberra Times last month when a reporter and photographer went out for a night patrol. Did you read it?

Lots of people, including some people who work at a desk behind a computer, have hard jobs. They don’t get to hold people down and force a spit hood over their head. They don’t get to stun them with a Tazer. They don’t get to beat them with a baton. They don’t get to shoot them with a gun.

Police, under certain conditions, are given the privilege to do things that the rest of us aren’t legally allowed to do. They are provided those privileges by the people of the communities they take an oath to serve. Those privileges can be removed if they are found to be unsuitable, unnecessary, or inappropriate.

Even in a wonderful, generally peaceful and pleasant city like Canberra, some police officers abuse the privileges they’ve been given. They overstep their authority. They behave in ways that not only violate their own procedures and policies, but even violate the law. Every year, a significant number of Canberra police are found, through both internal and independent investigations and oversight, to have committed serious conduct breaches.

The goal of reducing the harm caused by criminals (people who’ve actually been found guilty of a crime, not just accused) needs to be balanced with the goal of reducing the harm caused by bad cops and by inappropriate policing methods, procedures, attitudes, strategies, and tactics. Both have negative consequences on the wellbeing and safety of our community.

Christine Stevens You conveniently digress with your comparison of police being exposed to other pathogens by being spat on & bitten with “Everybody in the ACT faces similar health risks from being infected with COVID and your “I go out too, and I see people coughing, standing close to other people even when there’s space to distance, etc. If they’re infecting other people with COVID, there’s nothing accidental about it” – covid IS accidental – NO ONE knows themselves who is or not active with the covid virus, so please don’t make it sound like it is deliberate spreading – it is their lack of awareness and not a deliberate spit or bite that occurs at the same level of people spitting at & biting police officers.
If people are not social distancing, then that’s their issue to deal with and yours to be aware of and social distance yourself.

Nada Krstin Of course there are people who know they’re infected with COVID and who go out into the community anyway. They go to work. They go out to enjoy themselves. And they make no effort to avoid infecting others. No masking. No social distancing. And yet you’ll absolve them of all responsibility and insist that everybody else should take precautions to avoid getting infected by them, but not say the same about police. How bizarre.

And to be clear, social distancing helps, but if infected people have been coughing and exhaling, especially indoors, there’s a significant risk of spreading the infection to others. Those germs are just as dangerous floating around in the air as they are in saliva, even if it’s only the second one that grosses people out.

Nada Krstin I don’t think you meant to, but you’ve raised an interesting point. If it’s really all about safety, then it shouldn’t matter whether it’s deliberate or not. And that’s true for coughing or exhaling or spitting or biting.

One of the documented cases of death in custody involving a spit hood was a man running around naked and having a mental health crisis. The young girl who was hooded here in Canberra was reportedly drunk. Are these peoples’ actions deliberate or not? Does it matter? Because if it does, then it seems using the hood isn’t just about safety, and that there’s a punitive element as well.

If a 92-year-old woman suffering from dementia freaks out when police lay hands on her and she’s spitting and sputtering everywhere, do they hold her down and hood her? Because if it’s only about safety, then all spit should be treated as equally dangerous.

We know there are documented deaths in custody after people have been forcefully hooded. We don’t know of any documented deaths of police officers after they’ve been spat on. One of the reasons we don’t know that is because the police aren’t telling us. Maybe you don’t care, but I’d like to know. Apparently other people would like to know as well, which is why the matter is being looked into.