Having read Bjorn_Agen’s take on the public meetings about the ACT Government’s plans for schools the other day, I decided to go along the meeting at Telopea Park School and see for myself what happened.
I am a largely disinterested observer, having no children and not knowing if I’ll even be in ACT (or the country) when I do. Also, none of the schools I attended are slated for closure so there’s no personal attachment there either.
However it was somewhat interesting to see how the Government’s system of “extensive community consultation” works.
Last year during one of my courses I was given a diagram of the levels citizen participation possible in a democracy. They are, from most participatory to not at all:
* Citizen control
* Delegated power
* Partnership
* Placation
* Consultation
* Informing
* Therapy
* Manipulation
I think what I saw tonight was probably somewhere between informing and therapy.
On entry we were given propaganda from all sides of the debate — the official minister’s statement, the union, the Liberals and the Greens (Deb Foskey herself was there shoving press releases in people’s hands). There were also Save Our Schools network flyers floating round the place. I didn’t read any of it, though my (reluctant) partner briefly perused what Clive Haggar had to say.
The symbolism of the hall was interesting. Andrew Barr, along with Michele Bruniges (Chief Executive of the department) and Craig Curry (Executive Director, I think of Southern area schools), were behind a table up on the stage and had hold of their own microphone. Us plebs (including Deb Foskey, Jacqui Burke and Vicki Dunne and about 45 others) sat in chairs set up on the auditorium floor. It was rather like being back in school assemblies, except my teachers used to stand behind a lectern.
There weren’t any children at the meeting and most attendees seemed to be parents of children at the local primary schools (Yarralumla and Forrest mainly). Oddly, there were two fellows in suits a bit outside having a discussion and a cigarette — for at least an hour. I think they might have been political staffers. Or possibly just from the hotel across the road.
I couldn’t see anyone, apart from a Canberra Times journalist, taking records of the meeting.
We arrived late and missed Mr Barr’s presentation, but could see the hypnotising green screensaver projected behind him (the CT journo kept racing up and moving the mouse so it didn’t run). Ordinary people in the audience were asking mostly sensible questions which weren’t really being answered by the minister. They were also, on the whole, allowed to ask a follow-up question if they wanted to.
Some of the questions were on the silly side, like someone (who my partner has helpfully noted as “Gentle Drone of Jargon”) who suggested that in the face of an implacable government, parents could be driven to self harm. Several parents also were concerned by the inconvenience to them by potentially having to take two children to different campuses. I’m not sure what they think is going to happen when the older of their kids starts high school and mummy and daddy still think they’re unsafe on buses.
However I thought some sensible points were raised which perhaps should be addressed by the government at some stage. These included the issue of students from NSW filling places in ACT schools (despite the priorities for student intake) and what would happen to the administrations of schools being amalgamated. Someon also raised the point that the Government appears to be being experimental with “our children’s” education and is on the one hand espousing the benefits of continuity (as in the K-6 schools) while on the other the benefits of being in just a K-3 school. Another parent wanted to know why we couldn’t see the Costello efficiency report — to which Mr Barr effectively replied because it’s a Cabinet document (I have it on good word the ACT’s own archives are due to open next year and there will be a 10-year release on Cabinet papers, so those who want to should be able to see the report in 2016 at least).
The best point I took away from the meeting (and it was quite scant pickings) was the mess of a system being proposed. If every measure outlined in the Towards 2020 proposal is taken, the ACT school system will include schools with the following year combinations: Preschool-3, P-4, P-5, P-6, 5-8, P-10, K-10, 6-10, 7-10, 7-12, 9-12 and 11-12. This in place of the general system of Preschool, K-6, 7-10 and 11-12 that we have at the moment.
I think the parents who attended the meeting may come away feeling like their views have been heard but I hope they don’t think they have especially been listened to.
Why does Barr smile all the time? It annoys me.
Excellent piece K.
Pol Pot used to smile a lot too – while he was having people executed!
Interesting that Andy has the devil’s red-eyes in the photo.
The old warhorse in the middle looks like she’d eat small children for breakfast!
i think you will find if you peruse the terrirtories accounts that the act receives extra funding to account for nsw residents using act services. iirc it comes in the form of extra gst payments (but i could be mistaken, havent had a coffee yet).
i wonder why politicians are afraid to answer questions. do they think we cant tell they arent answering the question.
we need to clone kerry obrien.
we need to clone kerry obrien
+1
After being schooled in Adelaide I find the school system here to be somewhat messy.
South Australian public schools generally come in one of two varieties; Reception to Year 7 (Primary School), and Year 8 to Year 12 (High School).
Why does the ACT need to have so many ‘colleges’ separate from high schools?
As someone with children who was considering sending them to the local public primary school I am almost certainly not going to do so now.
yes… send the kids off to a private school where they’ll learn about religion and never have to think for themselves again.
you forgot to mention and ‘get raped by those lovely christian priests…’ Lovely!
that’s what it’s all about isn’t it? fear.
tell the children that if they’re not good they’ll go to hell.
no wonder the churches are so interested in children… they’re much easier to fool.
Yes … that’s right that big bad private system is no good. Look theres one being closed down right now as parents rush their kids out!!
Geez get a grip people.
“Yes … that’s right that big bad private system is no good. Look theres one being closed down right now as parents rush their kids out!! “
they do a good job of producing bigots and sheep.
during one of my courses I was given a diagram of the levels citizen participation possible in a democracy
If you’re a PSMP-er (going out on a limb here – can’t think where else you might’ve seen that particular diagram), then you’ll know that our pluralist society makes it infeasible for government to offer participatory democracy to everybody, or even to signficant minorities. Even where it is feasible, it isn’t necessarily wise to allow a small number of affected parties to steer broad policy directions for the whole community. Suppose for a moment that the Stanhope government had allowed parents from affected schools to shape policy – the schools would simply never be closed, regardless of whether they were economically sustainable or equitable or not (until, at least, the little darlings had moved on to high school or uni, after which I suspect nobody would give a toss).
When there are diverse views about an emotional issue, and when there is a clear loser, governing at the top end of the participative ladder makes no sense, because there are too many voices and too much subjectivity. The government must undertake an independent, objective analysis and make a decision that is in the best interests of the society as a whole, and of future societies – not a decision that will placate a vocal or well-organised minority, or guarantee re-election by offending nobody while policy challenges remain unaddressed.
IMHO, their biggest mistake was “consulting” at all. Just hold information sessions, and leave it at that. “We’re here to explain why we made the decision we made, so that we are transparent and accountable. We’re not changing our minds, because we think it’s the right decision, and that ew made it the right way – we’re just telling you about the decision, why we made it, and how it will affect you. See you at the polls.”
“Yes … that’s right that big bad private system is no good. Look theres one being closed down right now as parents rush their kids out!! â€
…they also do a good job of confusing children about what is fact and what is fantasy.
biogaz78: The ACT college system works well to prepare students for tertiary education, as it’s a kind of half-way house between high school and uni. It also fosters an atmosphere more conducive to productive work than high school, because it seperates out post-compulsory students (ie, attending because they want to be there) from compulsory students.
I don’t think the children are confused………
While not against the college system… when I moved here from Sydney for Uni. I noticed that the kids from the college system coped better with a lack of structure (ie tutes etc), but were unable to cope with the prolonged exam period – in the NSW HSC system you did 5 or 6 exams over a two week period. I don’t think you do that in the ACT
well, that’s debunked my argument.
DAMN IT!! jesus wins AGAIN!
hehehehehe
May Allah be with you BattleKath you christian-centric anglophile
It’s been a while now but when I went through the ACT system the exam periods were quite intensive, and occurred more than once every two years.
Woody Mann-Caruso: what’s a PSMPer?
I was given that in a course about local government.
sounds painful
anglophile?… that doesn’t even make sense.
i make sure that i hate ALL religions equally!
Woody Mann-Caruso: what’s a PSMPer?
Sorry – Public Sector Management Program – postgraduate certificate course for middle managers coordinated by the Australian Public Service Commission. On reflection, it’s not surprising that the “ladder of participation” would show up in other places – it’s been around since 1969! If you’re interested, you can save $6000 and read the PSMP stuff online – check out Topic 4 of Unit 2 here (PDF, 2.34mb).
As a graduate of the NSW school system:
1) Years 11 and 12 were non-compulsory – you could try to get a job or enter a TAFE course with a school certificate (admittedly, it would be more challenging, but it’s probably the same in the ACT).
2) Major Exams were at least six-monthly.
So the only difference appears to be that you’re being isolated from the 7-10’s in the ACT system. This also means that teachers are not teaching the entire range 7-12, so presumably there’s a fair bit of duplication going on.
Sheesh can’t you decide to send your kids to a private school because you think they might get a better education whatever you think of their moral framework.
Its pretty clear that some people on this website don’t need to be ducated to display their bigotry.
My point is still made… i am not a religious person myself.
But I believe that the state education system has gone down to the lowest common denominator. My daugther recently changes from a public sector high school (not slated for closure) that issued report cards that didn’t provide feeback which were made by a patchwork quilt of interested and disinterested teachers. The classrooms had not been updated since adam played fullback babylon (yes I know what it should have been but i can’t spell it – but I think BattleKate was on the cheersquad).
In this school the teachers are enthusiastic, friendly, happy and helpful. teacher regularly send emails to parents informing them on what the kids are doing, what are the challenges how they behaved on school excursions (in the positive) and what the school is trying to achieve. Its been a breath of fresh air!!
And no the kids are not drones they are thriving iPODs and mobile phones are actively encouraged they do their lessons and homework on laptop computers.
A fail to see how hating religion and not wanting children to have a religious upbringing is bigotry. In my mind bigotry stems from religion… and all that we want to do is end bigotry… so that science can run free and human kind can achieve its potential instead of living a fantasy.
No doubt that a child who goes to private school will invariably choose their own religious destiny.. but it doesn’t help that they have that crap shoved down their throats.
And if governments offered no help to private schools… and gave that funding to public schools.. our kids as whole would be better off.
“Sheesh can’t you decide to send your kids to a private school because you think they might get a better education whatever you think of their moral framework.”
frankly, if i disagreed with the moral framework of a school there is no way i would send my children there. that is the stupidest thing ever. you might want to think about that before calling ME un(e)ducated.
and SLBrown – firstly, if you’re going to argue with me, please get my name right. secondly, i’m not arguing that public or private schools provide a better education, simply that i think it’s wrong to teach children things as though they are facts, which most private schools do by making religion a class alongside science and history.
“Sheesh can’t you decide to send your kids to a private school because you think they might get a better education whatever you think of their moral framework.”
frankly, if i disagreed with the moral framework of a school there is no way i would send my children there. that is the stupidest thing ever. you might want to think about that before calling ME un(e)ducated.
and SLBrown – firstly, if you’re going to argue with me, please get my name right. secondly, i’m not arguing that public or private schools provide a better education, simply that i think it’s wrong to teach children things as though they are facts, which most private schools do by making religion a class alongside science and history.
simto: Yeah I realise that yr 11 and 12 are non-compulsory in NSW too, my point was just that here compulsory and post-compulsory students aren’t in the same school.
The other difference is that the college system of classes is structured in many ways more like uni or tafe than high school (for example, you don’t have year 11 classes and year 12 classes, you just have a bunch of classes which you can pick and choose from – so you tend to have a different mix of peers in every class you’re in, and most classes tend to be about half-half year 11 and 12 students). It’s also more self-driven than high school – ie if you skip classes the teachers don’t really care or say anything, you just fail.
Battlekath and A-D, as per form, fulfil their role as our onsite anti-religion cheersquad.
Battlekath – I can’t speak for all religious private schools, but the religion lessons I received at my religious private school were suprisingly open-minded and covered more than just Christianity (and more than just Judeo-christian religion, before you ask).
Religion is not taught “alongside” science. The school I went to either kept them very separate; or basically said “well, the bible doesn’t have ALL the answers…”
You stated that you wouldn’t send your child to a school who’s ethos you disagreed with…then why implicitly snipe at people who send their children to a school who’s ethos they agree with?
A-D – you and I tend to agree on a lot of things; but your constant harping against religion makes you sound like an angst-ridden teen who’s been listening to too much Slipknot.
Your blind assumption that all religion is bad, and all religious people are brainwashed or stupid IS bigotry. You are making a blind assumption about people from a preconceived idea. If that ain’t bigotry, I dunno what is.
Religious people can be bigoted too. But two wrongs…
Also, blindly saying “take money from the private schools and give them to the public schools” is all well and good…but exceptionally naieve. It costs the govt less to put a kid through a private school. Rich people send kids to private schools. I view it as an “education levy” on rich people.
’sides – can you imagine if every private school kid went and enrolled at their local govt school? The system would collapse. And quickly. I think they tried your system in NSW in the 60’s. Rev. Mannix told all the Catholic parents to go and enrol their kids at the local government school. I believe the idea was VERY quickly forgotten.
Just look at those red eyes on andrew barr. evil!!
…and what’s with the hand gesture. It reminds me of the dude in “Temple of Doom” that pulled people’s hearts out through their chests!
Bah dissenting member of the public! I’ll swallow your soul!
Maybe I should have been clearer in that you can send your child/children to a school for the quality of education first and foremost while the moral/ethical framework that the school operates in could be a secondary or less important consideration unless, of course, you find it so objectionable that it overrides the quality of education.
The assertion that a religion is shoved down anyone’s throat who has attended a school with a eligious affiliation is as much of an assertion that anyone who attends a public school has secularism shoved down their throat.
The college system is the best thing about schooling in the ACT. As someone said, each class is different, with a mix of both yr 11 andf 12 students. Students are responsible for chooosing their own classes and specialty subjects. There is a huge variety of subjects – eg psychology / history of religion / motor mechanics / chinese cooking / romance literature / drama etc as well as the basics – maths / science etc. You can do vocational or higher ed subjects and students are responsible for their own attendance etc. It is a great system, and for this reason the ACT has the highest rate of retention in yr 12 in the country.
It works well, so of course the ACT govt are messing with it….
Mr Shab – I do harp on about religion.. because it is something that bothers me… for too long we have all been religiously tolerant and meanwhile these religous bigots still harp on about the evils of science…and get away with crimes against humanity.. Even the creationists who believe slightly in science still bag science. I think enough is enough…. it has far too great an impact on society for me to feel the need to be tolerant. I am not going to persecute anybody of religous persuasion.. and i infact have religous family and friends… but I am no longer going to be silent… i have been silent for too many years. And I encourage anyone with an opinion either way to do so.
Schooling is always an issue that has bugged me as well…. I cannot stomach the thought of private school allowing rich kids to get any further ahead… I know that is a pretty leftist view.. and i normally consider myself pretty moderate. Just these two issues.. REALLY bug me!! and the fact that they are linked…. oohh…
Look, I’ve taught in the Govt high school system and am currently teaching in the Non-Govt system at a Catholic high school. I taught RE in Term 1 this year.
Students who enrol at the school must do religious education up to Yr 12.
Everyone’s view is accepted.
There are some great Govt schools out there and some shitty Non-Govt and vice versa.
Don’t put your child into a Non-Govt school just because of this shit with the ACT Govt. It’ll only prove my point that the school closures will do more damage than good.
Andrew Barr is an idiot. The policy *cough* is a feat of shit. The rational for closing the schools is ok, but the K-3 etc is ridiculous as is closing down most schools in one area.
Consultation for a policy must take place before the policy is accepted and then after it is accepted. I’d like to know when the consult was taken prior to its release. Where in the document is the risk analysis?
It’s obvious that their strategic management is sorely lacking and the people who will get promotions for this policy should go back to school and learn about risk analysis, among other things.
End of rant.
I’m not a big supporter of religion AD – I just don’t agree that it’s a force for evil and only evil. Politics co-opting religion for its ends is where you get evil.
As for private schools…well…let’s not open that can of worms lest we start debating the merits of the welfare state, capitalism vs socialism and where we’re going as a society when we’re here to discuss Mr Barr’s new schools policy.
Umm…it’s…umm…bad…
I decided to go to the meeting on the other side of the town. There were probably 300 people there. Nice warm assembly hall. I had no axe to grind since we no longer are of child rearing age. I left at 8:30pm and the meeting was going strong.
Most of the people were polite and did not interject, except for the Liberal hecklers at the back.
I must say that the reasoning from Barr had credibility. Schools had to be balanced across the region and it was stupid to have 5 primary schools within a 2km radius no matter how good the facilities are at this moment at the closing school.
He mentioned savings, yes savings, per school closure of $500,000 for a mid size primary school and $1.1M for a high school. Any use and thus income that the closed school can be put to, has not been considered in the savings.
Barr said teachers were free to protest about the school closures as long as they were aware of their code of conduct: political activities; private time etc.
People raised the radical P-10 schools and how it will lead to the end of life as we know it. Barr responded how Telopea Park works well with the P-10 concept, it fact it is over enrolled. Are there that many Frogs in Canberra?
Schools have closed: Ginninderra; Holder; Watson; Stirling; Woden and life has moved on.
Frankly I came away from the meeting that many of the schools slated will have to close. I am probably looking forward to having the use of some of these classrooms for the community groups I am associated with.
Religion as Marx so eloquently put it, is the opium of the people. Read Brave New World, work out how “Soma” is used, read it again and swap “Soma” for religion.
The point here is that religion has a pretty bad score card for humanity on the whole. If you have religion and it works for you that is great, just keep it to yourself. If you need to convert others so you can feel good about yourself, take self-esteem 101 or see a therapist. Religion is about as helpful to humanity on the whole as heroin is to addiction. Absent Diane is on the mark. Religion gets the tax concessions and the forgiveness of its crimes against humanity. Maybe if we decreased our great tolerance of it, so it was acceptable to practice in private and not to share it with others we might all be better off.
A private school education will always be superior to that offered by the Government Sector.
What I don’t get is why public school advocates get so agitated about it. Their indignation at anyone who makes the choice to have their children privately educated is palpable.
What’s your basis for comparison Big Al?
It’s obvious you had a problem with ONE school, but don’t go labelling all the others because you’re sore.
You can get good schools in both systems.
Nyssa76 it’s mostly shit-stirring. To be honest I have no problem with where people choose to educate their kids.
I am, however, amused by the fact that many in the community would criticise Governments of all persuasions for incompetence in their management or roads, hospitals, law and order etc. and then choose to send their kids to a Government school as if that sector of Government provided service was somehow less incompetently managed and delivered than all the others.
Government should be as small as possible. They should, as a rule, avoid interfering in the lives of ordinary citizens. They should provide services where the free market cannot and they should avoid competing with the free market. For me, choosing to educate my children privately is, in part, a function of acting on these beliefs.
I tend to view public education as being a form of welfare – as a option of last resort.
Oh God! We’re not quoting Marx and Huxley, are we…
If you’ll forgive the hackneyed phrase, what we should be decreasing our tolerance of is intolerance, Tempestas.
Religion makes a very good whipping-boy for the secular left (and right for that matter…) but I maintain that religion in and of itself is more a force for good than bad.
George Pell is an ass. Abu Bakar Bashir is an ass. George Pell and Bashir are not religion any more than Josef Mengele is science. Religion is a comfort and guide to many who don’t feel the need to push their beliefs on others. You probably know a few of them…
The tax thing is a bit more on the mark – I think it’s a bit rich that religious groups get tax free status regardless of whether they undertake charitable work of not.
i went to both private and public schools.
i preferred the public.
however, apart from reading and writing i didnt learn anything at school.
everything i know i sought out myself. that includes my decision to enrol and complete differennt tertiary courses and read widely.
travelling the world for work and then taking a year off and wandering on my own was educational as well.
a parents choice of school is a choice they make on what social engineering they want their child to have. it needs more thought than often it is given.
however, i’d ban all religion from private and public schools.
Thank you tempestas!!
its not just politics shab. its everywhere on every scale. Yes bad people may use it as an excuse to do bad things… but not all racists/sexist/homophobic people are bad. They just have a negative influence saying to them that niggers are bad…
Eradicate the excuse, and spend the funds on working out how to make existence better for all humans so you cut out the number of bad eggs.
Damn im hot!!! watch me dance!!
IMO there is no point to life, other than to see how far we can get. Religion, however, seems to always be the thing that gets in the way. Most people are born into their religion, their parents believe a certain way and that is what’s taught and passed on. if your parents are jewish then so are you…you’re taught that as a truth and therefore live accordingly. It’s not until people are older and start to question things like this that changes can be made, if they even question things at all. I think a lot of people are too lazy to look and find out more about other religions or the possibility that maybe there isn’t an almighty god. it’s just too easy to accept it and fit into that ‘god group’ where people aren’t going to harrass you for thinking otherwise. and i agree with AD in that it’s free thinking that should be encouraged, either way.
I simply think that religion shouldn’t be something that is forced upon you from the moment that you’re born. children are children and just like they’re eventually told that santa dosen’t raelly exist, they too should be told that religion isn’t based on fact. Just like children are too young to make the decision about sex, so too are they to decide about their religion…and as we don’t say that it’s ok for children to have sex with whoever we think is ok… they’re seperated from it until they are old enough to make their own decision. it should be the same way with religion.
freethinking should be taught first, before any decisions are made about life.