Not with those finger-prints mate - Sultans IDs its customers

harvyk1 said :

If this were the case I could in theory put up a sign on my front yard stating that anyone who steps on my driveway needs to pay a driveway users fee, and technically they would be legally bound to do so.

I am going to try this and see if it works!

*hehe*

I’m going for the three post nutbag status. Fingers crossed.

tylersmayhem said :

It’s quite strange actually that us as Aussies allow this kind of “bag check agreement” to enter grocery stores. I’ve seen a lot of the world, and I’ve never come across is anywhere other than here. When I tell mates overseas, they shake their heads and can’t believe it.

We were once a penal colony. Hang on, did we ever stop?????? 😉

harvyk1 said :

A business, has the right to refuse entry to any person, technically for any reason they like, as the business typically owns (or at least leases) the private property which it’s located on. It’s the same as you can refuse anyone you like entry into your own home. However they do need to make sure it’s a good one otherwise they will have the wrath of anti-discrimination boards come down onto them.

As for a sign stating that something must happen eg wollies stating they will check your bags on exit, is not legally binding. Technically they can detain you until police arrive if they have reasonable grounds to suspect you have stolen something (refusing a bag check I don’t think would count as reasonable grounds) but good luck truely enforcing that, as they just as likely to end up in court themselves. They can not do something like check your bags without you either been verbally informed of the store policy on entry (even then their word against yours) or have you actually sign a contract on entry to the store.

They are reliant on most people been ignorant and thinking the sign gives the store legal power. If this were the case I could in theory put up a sign on my front yard stating that anyone who steps on my driveway needs to pay a driveway users fee, and technically they would be legally bound to do so.

How ignorant I have been. Or maybe just not wanting to cause a scene.
As far as Sultan’s goes, and being out of the clubbing scene, I’m sure there are finer establishments in the city that are worth dropping the RiotACT posting/I mean hard earned dollar in. If we’re all so afraid that our info will be “out there” don’t go.

It’s quite strange actually that us as Aussies allow this kind of “bag check agreement” to enter grocery stores. I’ve seen a lot of the world, and I’ve never come across is anywhere other than here. When I tell mates overseas, they shake their heads and can’t believe it.

A business, has the right to refuse entry to any person, technically for any reason they like, as the business typically owns (or at least leases) the private property which it’s located on. It’s the same as you can refuse anyone you like entry into your own home. However they do need to make sure it’s a good one otherwise they will have the wrath of anti-discrimination boards come down onto them.

As for a sign stating that something must happen eg wollies stating they will check your bags on exit, is not legally binding. Technically they can detain you until police arrive if they have reasonable grounds to suspect you have stolen something (refusing a bag check I don’t think would count as reasonable grounds) but good luck truely enforcing that, as they just as likely to end up in court themselves. They can not do something like check your bags without you either been verbally informed of the store policy on entry (even then their word against yours) or have you actually sign a contract on entry to the store.

They are reliant on most people been ignorant and thinking the sign gives the store legal power. If this were the case I could in theory put up a sign on my front yard stating that anyone who steps on my driveway needs to pay a driveway users fee, and technically they would be legally bound to do so.

You can find me in the club, bottle full of bub

…or a pocket full of bud?!

You can find me in the club, bottle full of bub

I gather you’re a fan of the place?

tylersmayhem said :

Is it legal for them to refuse me entrance if I don’t allow them to collect this personal data?

Yeah Granny, I’m pretty sure it is. Probably similar to the condition of entry to Woolies is allowing them to search your bag on the way out.

Legal to refuse you entry….yes
Woolies have the power to search your bags on the way out…..no they don’t. Don’t believe me, next time you go to leave a major dept store or supermarket and they ask to check your bag say no and walk out. They won’t and can’t stop you unless they have seen you pinch something.

It has been said before but I will say it again. Sultans is a crucible, a melting pot if you will, a highly potent and concentrated zone filled with the most depraved, vile, sad, pathetic, tragic, morbid scum you will see in Canberra.

A club that in the face of decency, morality, ethics, and logic has the courage and the daring to not only serve overpriced ,watered down spirits, but even go as far as protecting their intellectually diminished patrons from their own kind.

As a concerned citizen of this fair and humble city of Canberra I say NO to the thumbscan! I want as much concentrated scum and depravity crammed into that place on a thursday and saturday night as physically possible! I say let prisoners with multiple life sentences go there on a field trip weekly! The people that pay to enter, deserve only the best that Sultans has to offer.

That’s it, from now on I am only going to clubs with a fake ID and a severed finger.

It’s easy – If you don’t want to be subject to Sultans conditions of entry into THEIR club, don’t go. Sultans is not a public park and they can stipulate whatever they like to get in.

…now require your driver’s license, from which the details are recorded, prior to entry. That, and fingerprint scanning, are common in the US. common in the US, as is that spelling of ‘licence’… [grammar nazi slopes off home to dinner..]

it isn’t so common in, say, guinea bissau. should i be worried? what has the US got to do with this – especially well known for their liberal attitudes to civil liberties! the point is that there is a culture that is going to attempt to get into wherever the ‘scene’ is – underage or thug or whatever – and will attempt to violate the system. ‘I’ll just chop wayne’s fingers off and use them…”

but this whole ‘scene’ will manifest somewhere else and this ‘solution’ isn’t one, apart maybe for sultans (whatever the hell that is – where is this den of iniquity exactly?) but then again, maybe even for them. as others above have noted, we all went through this stage and, as far as i’ve been aware, there have always been dives that puzzle me as to why anyone would ever even contemplate entering, but clearly some people do… why are we wasting time on this?

JC said :

ID scanning is common in the UK for entry into night clubs. Not sure if it makes me feel any safer or not, I have never worked out the real benifit.

One thing confuses me with this plan though. It says the finger prints are not stored nor used, but then the next line says future entry can be gained with a finger print scan. Hmmmm, doesn’t that mean it is being stored and used? And besides if they weren’t being stored and used what is the point of the scan in the first place.

Try reading post #43.

tylersmayhem said :

What happened to more live acts or pub bands of days gone by?

Phoenix, i think PJs* also have live bands too.

(*could be O’Malleys – i always get the two mixed up)

ID scanning is common in the UK for entry into night clubs. Not sure if it makes me feel any safer or not, I have never worked out the real benifit.

One thing confuses me with this plan though. It says the finger prints are not stored nor used, but then the next line says future entry can be gained with a finger print scan. Hmmmm, doesn’t that mean it is being stored and used? And besides if they weren’t being stored and used what is the point of the scan in the first place.

What happened to more live acts or pub bands of days gone by?

> However, I never was much of a clubber. I can’t hear a thing, and once I get too embarrassed to say, “What?” anymore, then I just sit there and pretend to laugh at the same time as everyone else. It is such fun!

That’s me as well. That & the fact that most club music annoys me to no end.

A lot of clubs and bars in Sydney and Melbourne now require your driver’s license, from which the details are recorded, prior to entry. That, and fingerprint scanning, are common in the US.

As for privacy concerns, most institutions (banks, insurance, etc.) require only cursory information (name, address, DOB), all of which can be looked up online, before granting access to your accounts over the phone – I’d be more worried about that.

I know!

LOL

We should take a poll on: Sultans nightclub … who knew?

I think the best approach is to continue to ignore these people.

However, I never was much of a clubber. I can’t hear a thing, and once I get too embarrassed to say, “What?” anymore, then I just sit there and pretend to laugh at the same time as everyone else. It is such fun!

Granny said :

I am pretty sure society will end up this way, but I’m certainly not going to help them.

I am relatively law abiding for the most part and I have nothing to hide from police or nightclub owners, but I don’t want to leave this kind of legacy to future generations. I want them to live in a free society not a police state.

If Big Brother wants to watch me, he can expect to get a poke in the eye before he takes me out.

I absolutely agree Granny. My earlier statement saying that Sultan’s should have the ‘right’ to do this does not mean that I like it one bit. It concerns me greatly and I won’t be going there.

…of course I didn’t actually know it even existed so that probably won’t be much of a loss for them.

Maybe you were also grooving along to ‘Rak Off, Normie!’ and stuff, but even two years younger would have made it too embarrassing to ever ‘go with’ in those ageist days.

*grin*

Granny said :

Well, where were you when I needed smuggling, peterh? Probably in nappies, goshdarnit!!

; )

doubt I am that much younger than you….

Well, where were you when I needed smuggling, peterh? Probably in nappies, goshdarnit!!

; )

Granny said :

Perhaps I am just old-fashioned, killabeez, but when I was sixteen the method was relatively cheap and simple.

Step 1. My girlfriends and I walk into bar.
Step 2. The patrons yell out, “Jailbait!”
Step 3. My girlfriends and I walk out of bar.

oh, granny, those days are long gone. I used to smuggle my mate’s girlfriend into the labor club for him, they knew him and his antics, so it was up to me. and she was just 16, then.

now, he is long gone, but she and I are still great mates.

and she tells her daughter about the hi jinks we got up to….

sigh. makes me feel really old…

Well obviously you haven’t gone out for awhile. i think alot of the male population these days see young women as easy targets not as potential jail time. i personally don’t think like this and none of my friends do but i do see this alot in everyday life. Kinda sad…. yeah.

justbands said :

How much do you think RiotACT admins know about you (if they chose to dig a little)? In this day & age our lives are out there for all & sundry to see. If you don’t like it, then don’t participate in the modern world.

And the RiotACT admins have been known to ‘out’ members on occasions when they have not been upfront about things like affiliations and conflicts of interest.

So why shouldn’t we use our real names when posting here? Well, apart from protection from the lunatic fringe, things posted here and elsewhere on the Internet are for all intents and purposes a permanent record but the opinions I express are subject to change over time. What I believed yesterday may not be what I believe today. Why should I risk being discriminated against because of an opinion I once held that I no longer do, or for something that is being taken out of context of the larger debate, or by someone I’ve had a strong disagreement with in the name of community debate?

Perhaps I am just old-fashioned, killabeez, but when I was sixteen the method was relatively cheap and simple.

Step 1. My girlfriends and I walk into bar.
Step 2. The patrons yell out, “Jailbait!”
Step 3. My girlfriends and I walk out of bar.

I know people who run Sultans. They have been busted 2 or 3 times for under ages in the club, stupid on their part yes, but this would serve as huge deterant for youngens trying to go up there for a few on friday night. The other thing is that most of Canberra’s young and devious population know if you want anything illegal, Sultans is the place to go, and the owner is looking at this method of way of detering the shady characters who peddle these certain substances.

PBO said :

As for not saving the prints on file, how would they know who is banned unless they do save them. They should not lie to the public like that.

I don’t know anything about this particular implementation of this technology, but I suspect what may be stored is a “hash sum” generated from the scanned finger print. Hashes are a one way mathamatical representation of a piece of data – in this case your fingerprint. They could not take the saved hash sum, and reverse it back to your fingerprint. They could take a second scan of your finger print next time your go to the club, and using the same algorithm generate a hash sum again. This would output the same hash sum as the first scan, and thus, they would know who you were, and that you had visited the club xx amount of times.

For more info, here’s a wiki article on hashing:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hash_function

Is it legal for them to refuse me entrance if I don’t allow them to collect this personal data?

Yeah Granny, I’m pretty sure it is. Probably similar to the condition of entry to Woolies is allowing them to search your bag on the way out.

Is it legal for them to refuse me entrance if I don’t allow them to collect this personal data?

Does this mean all footballers will have to submit to a DNA test whenever they enter Sultans? 😉

”What would stop people working in a particular club staff, management, security providers who might think a particular patron was good looking thinking ‘we have her address we will go round and look her up’,” Mr O’Gorman said.

As if any attractive women go to Sultan’s anyway!

> vote with your feet. don’t go there. (not that I ever would, anyway)

Exactly my point. Don’t like the idea? Don’t go there.

justbands said :

I have to agree completely with jakez on this one…

“We the punters are certainly free to go to Sultan’s and as a condition of entry, voluntarily agree to the fingerprinting. If we don’t like it we can go elsewhere.”.

& as for all thew “oh noes, they’ll know I went there/what I drink/etc”, well….get over it. How much do you think RiotACT admins know about you (if they chose to dig a little)? In this day & age our lives are out there for all & sundry to see. If you don’t like it, then don’t participate in the modern world.

justbands,

now worried about the legitimate gathering of information to build a demographic profile, bit more concerned about a nightclub needing my prints in any form for identification. They are not the police, and need to remember that they can refuse entry to patrons, but at the same time, need justification for their actions.
fingerprinting does not prevent bad behaviour, it allows the owners to be selective as to their clientele.

vote with your feet. don’t go there. (not that I ever would, anyway)

I have to agree completely with jakez on this one…

“We the punters are certainly free to go to Sultan’s and as a condition of entry, voluntarily agree to the fingerprinting. If we don’t like it we can go elsewhere.”.

& as for all thew “oh noes, they’ll know I went there/what I drink/etc”, well….get over it. How much do you think RiotACT admins know about you (if they chose to dig a little)? In this day & age our lives are out there for all & sundry to see. If you don’t like it, then don’t participate in the modern world.

tylersmayhem said :

I say they really should have retinal scanning. Finger print scanning just isn’t enough…*cough*

unless the scan is doing subcutaneous rfid creation, I would have to agree.

I say they really should have retinal scanning. Finger print scanning just isn’t enough…*cough*

P.S. Is Sultans still owned by that Drug Dealing Dentist and his sidekick Jimmy the Bar Manager?

Its easy people, just say no! A drivers licence is all you are legally required to show when asked. These people are just a powerless entity who have no swing. Only the police have the power to take finger prints.

As for not saving the prints on file, how would they know who is banned unless they do save them. They should not lie to the public like that.

How about a blanket ban on this establishment for infringing on peoples civil liberties?

Deano is starting to get to the root of the matter. Also, how is providing information like forngerprints going to make anyone safer or more secure? It’s a bit like surveillence cameras – they don’t physically stop anything from occurring, they just record the event.

I’d be more concerned about how the data they collect is being stored (and not just biometric data). Also, if someone who shouldn’t have access to your information decides to do something naughty with it (which would NEVER happen in seedy nightclub circles), how do you deal with that? You have very little comeback unless you can somehow prove they compromised your information, which you won’t be able to because of the way they manage their IT systems.

Also, audit logs were mentioned earlier. Who exactly will be reviewing them? Against what? How will they know what constitutes an unauthorised event? What will they do if they find one? Call the police? What information will they provide? Then what? Far out, IT security professionals can’t agree on how this should be done, what chance does a bouncer or barman have?

No way known will I be providing biometric information or copies of ID to a nightclub?

And where exactly is this Sultanas place?

what they do is scan your id at the door then take your finger print pretty risky

a cheaper solution would be to have cameras that record who goes in and comes out. not hard to weed out the thugs – just have a security person monitoring the cameras and alert the bouncers who doesn’t get to come in.

nicely put Deano. That’s exactly my problem with it.

bd84 said :

As for the civil libitarians, someone should shoot them just them to get them to shut the fck up. If you’re in a public place and doing nothing wrong you shouldn’t have a problem, if you don’t want to be subject to people watching you etc. Stay at home and hide from the world.

But this is more than just someone watching you. This is someone collecting your name, address and birth date, and tracking when, how often and with who you visit an establishment that just sells alcohol.

With these types of systems the concern isn’t so much how they are used today but how they get used tomorrow. For example, the company that sells these devices finds that it has been very successful, so successful in fact that the market is near saturation and their sales are falling off. In order to maintain profits, they are a company after all, they turn to their most valuable asset, the database of club patrons, and start offering new services. For a fee they will offer to send targeted promotional material on behalf of club owners. Want a younger clientele in your club, no problem as they have birth dates. Not getting enough women into your club, no problem as they know who visits neighbouring clubs. Not happy with the standard of your patrons, no problem as their new facial attractiveness rating software will weed out the ugly ones. Want to launch a new product, no problem as they can identify leaders within social groups.

Then they get the idea to start correlating data from other sources. Since they have your address, they know what sociodemographic you come from. All of a sudden the credit card companies become interested, and the music companies and the holiday companies and the insurance companies. In fact the insurance companies become very interested in people’s drinking habits and adjust their premiums accordingly.

The privacy implications aren’t always the sinister tin foil hat ones.

I am pretty sure society will end up this way, but I’m certainly not going to help them.

I am relatively law abiding for the most part and I have nothing to hide from police or nightclub owners, but I don’t want to leave this kind of legacy to future generations. I want them to live in a free society not a police state.

If Big Brother wants to watch me, he can expect to get a poke in the eye before he takes me out.

I had NOOOO idea that Sultans in Canberra would require such advanced security measures or even have a need to track regulars etc.
But I’ve been out of the meat market for long enough now to technically classed as mutton so I’ll admit to not knowing what the cool kids are up to these days 😉

I have strong suspicions the real value of this wouldn’t be as much in safety, as in being able to track regulars and identify high value customers.

Also good for the manager to get a ping when cute new girls come into the bar.

Me Confuso. If the information/print isnt stored, how come when you get scanned next time, you are admitted/denied entry…
Whatever. I certainly wont be providing my licencing information(including age and address) fingerprints or shoe size details to some potentially crooked niteclub owners for photographing and storage and god knows what else. What a ridiculously stupid idea.
I can have a hassle free, cheaper beer with my mates at home without the risk of having my identity being stolen.

I recently ran the gauntlet through US customs… I remember a time when fingerprints were only taken from crims…

Far out.

Reply

The system involves patrons having their IDs scanned on entry, a digital photo taken and a finger pin the digital number generated from a fingerprint scan captured

Way to English talk, Canberra Times.

”What would stop people working in a particular club staff, management, security providers who might think a particular patron was good looking thinking ‘we have her address we will go round and look her up’,” Mr O’Gorman said.

…and what’s to stop bouncers doing that at any venue that checks ID?

”The whole system is completely audited from the minute you scan to the minute you ask to be deleted.”

Logged. “Auditing” is when an independent third-party goes through those logs, and checks nobody’s been abusing the system… which as far as I can tell, isn’t done here.

imagine if all clubs do it, should it be banned then?

What if all the clubs start to LINK their databases together to make you “safer”. Then one night, your mate gets rowdy, and you step in but things get out of hand. You get black-listed but have no right to appeal (it’s a private company) and can never get into any club again in Canberra.

I think the fingerprint method is clumsy (slow, intrusive) and is only a stop gap measure until biometric facial recognition becomes more widespread.

I-Filed,

Facinated by your post re disabled parking space users.

Is the subject worth it’s own thread?

I don’t like the idea of fingerprinting but I think the Australian Council For Civil Liberties has this completely wrong.

There is a difference between a Government fingerprinting system for everyone and one for a private business.

The ACL wants the Government to step in and ban this but that is a disgraceful intrusion on a private enterprises right to ply their trade as they desire.

We the punters are certainly free to go to Sultan’s and as a condition of entry, voluntarily agree to the fingerprinting. If we don’t like it we can go elsewhere.

Society will be able to handle this without getting the Government involved.

Bit like disabled parking spots – the persons in blue can camp out near one and statistics showed that a massive proportion of people abusing disabled parking had warrants out for their arrest, or were driving stolen cars etc.

What’s the likelihood that Sultans technique could lead the police to, er, Cash Converters patrons etc?

Sultan’s ‘still’ exists? wow.

I see the bleeding heart “Human Rights” lunatics have sprung to the defence of those poor patrons already. Shame on you! – O’Gorman
cries –

“But Australian Council for Civil Liberties president Terry O’Gorman said such measures were a ”serious breach of privacy and should be stopped”.

”It is not needed, it is heavy handed, it is arrogant, it is unjustified … and the ACT Government should step in and stop it,” he said.

”What would stop people working in a particular club staff, management, security providers who might think a particular patron was good looking thinking ‘we have her address we will go round and look her up’,” Mr O’Gorman said. ”It poses some very real personal safety concerns particularly for patrons.”

What a crock!!

Yes I agree this is probably not going to solve all the problems of the industry but at least it is a step in the right direction regardless what you think of Sultans.

What is really needed however is for liquor licencing to be put firmly back into the hands of the Police and to be taken away from the “toothless tiger” (liquor licencing commission) that only very occasionally ventures out to slap a few measly fines on club operators or to slap a few wrists. Give the Police the liquor powers and properly regulate the “security” industry will make a huge difference and a lot of people feel a whole lot safer. Of course having a court system that will hand out some deterent sentences might help just a ……..LITTLE BIT!!!!!

These devices are used for clubs in Sydney with very high patron numbers. Sultans population of 10 people does not fit the criteria.

I don’t really see what fingerprinting patrons is going to do. It’s not like Sultans can match them up to Police database.If a patron did cause a disturbance Sultans would still need security to kick them out, wouldn’t matter how many fingerprints they have. “Leave now mate, we have your fingerprints and aren’t afraid to use them”. The Police aren’t going to get involved unless it’s pretty serious (probably only murder or weapon attack) so what’s the point? So they get banned from the club, plenty of other clubs around.

Boy, what a publicity coup this is. I had never heard of Sultans before, now everybody knows about them.

great to see technology being used in the most far-fetched way. what is next? microchip with the tab on it under your skin? (it is already in other countries) depends on the technology used for the fingerprint scan. if it is IRDA, it can be beaten, easily. if it is tru-print, it is pretty well bulletproof.

Wait, people go into Sultans? – all the stories i’ve heard about people sacrificing $10 cover to get in there have all resorted in <20 people being in the establishment.

Back to the point – This is a really stupid idea, I mean the bouncer should be able to recognise the face he’s punched in a week ago. There are much better things they could have spent this money on – from extra security, to doing the place up, to subsidising drinks or something. I will never go to that place, ever.

cranky said :

And when our local Gov seems to have shovelled all responsibility for out of control drunken thugs onto Club managements, this seems a good ar@e covering move.

Well the real responsibility is with the drunken thugs themselves.

But as club managements create the conditions for thugs to become drunken (and make their money by doing so), then I think they do have a civic responsibility to try to avoid fuelling up the worst of them. Though I doubt this is what their main aim is here: more like trying to make a reasonably honest buck by attracting people who want to drink a lot, but keeping out those where drinking a lot = trouble for other customers and smashed facilities = less $ for the business.

And when our local Gov seems to have shovelled all responsibility for out of control drunken thugs onto Club managements, this seems a good ar@e covering move.

Just another reason not to go to this place.

Deano said :

One of the fallacies of security is that by being able to identify someone, you are able to identify their intent. Just because I know who you are doesn’t mean that I know what you are going to do.

Sure it might keep out the serial thugs but it just relocates them to another place so it becomes someone else’s problem, it doesn’t stop their behaviour.

To be fair, from the point of view of a venue operator moving the trouble elsewhere is a total win.

You couldn’t pay me to go to that sh!thole.

One of the fallacies of security is that by being able to identify someone, you are able to identify their intent. Just because I know who you are doesn’t mean that I know what you are going to do.

Sure it might keep out the serial thugs but it just relocates them to another place so it becomes someone else’s problem, it doesn’t stop their behaviour.