Enrollment fraud, is it more chicken or the egg?

Antagonist said :

VYBerlinaV8_is_back said :

Antagonist said :

The NAPLAN results were promptly torn up and tossed out the window on Athllon Drive – they didn’t even deserve to be recycled.

So your response to results you didn’t like was to tear up the paper and throw them onto the road, presumably while driving.

Did your daughter see you do this? What sort of example do you think this behaviour sets?

You presume incorrectly. I was not the driver.

I explained to her that there are different kinds of smarts. There are ‘hand smarts’ like her artistic mother or mechanic grandfather, and ‘academic smarts’ like her scientist father, economist grandmother, or her other grandfather who was an engineer at the ANU for over 40 years. I then went on to explain that in Year 3 NAPLAN tests do not tell her anything meaningful because she is so young, but *MAY* do in future years when she is older. At the moment it is the report cards from her teachers (the people that actually have face-to-face contact with her in a classroom environment) that give us a much better picture of how she is performing, and where she might need assistance or further development.

Many university students struggle with this type of testing environment. Why would it be any easier for a Year 3 student? We let her make the choice if she wanted to do the testing or not. She chose to do it. To her it was about the experience – not the results. Her attitude is what impresses me. Not her results.

But you still littered!

VYBerlinaV8_is_back said :

Antagonist said :

The NAPLAN results were promptly torn up and tossed out the window on Athllon Drive – they didn’t even deserve to be recycled.

So your response to results you didn’t like was to tear up the paper and throw them onto the road, presumably while driving.

Did your daughter see you do this? What sort of example do you think this behaviour sets?

You presume incorrectly. I was not the driver.

I explained to her that there are different kinds of smarts. There are ‘hand smarts’ like her artistic mother or mechanic grandfather, and ‘academic smarts’ like her scientist father, economist grandmother, or her other grandfather who was an engineer at the ANU for over 40 years. I then went on to explain that in Year 3 NAPLAN tests do not tell her anything meaningful because she is so young, but *MAY* do in future years when she is older. At the moment it is the report cards from her teachers (the people that actually have face-to-face contact with her in a classroom environment) that give us a much better picture of how she is performing, and where she might need assistance or further development.

Many university students struggle with this type of testing environment. Why would it be any easier for a Year 3 student? We let her make the choice if she wanted to do the testing or not. She chose to do it. To her it was about the experience – not the results. Her attitude is what impresses me. Not her results.

CollegeTeacher said :

HenryBG said :

The alternative is to provide parents with no information at all, thus eliminating their ability to exercise an informed choice.

Well I suppose that’s where we differ, because I don’t see how ‘an informed choice’ would ever lead to a better system. The OECD has also found that school ‘choice’ leads to no improvements whatsoever and in fact leads to greater segregation, entrenching of privilege and more inequity that leads to worse outcomes for the system as a whole.

Like I said, social engineering of the “system as a whole” is not the primary objective of parents who are choosing a school for their children.
If a parent has access to information that helps them choose the school with the fewest disruptive foetal-alcohol-syndrome violent thugs, then they will be able to make a better choice in the interests of their own child.

The “lowest-common-denominator” approach of ACT educators has driven a record proportion of parents away from the public system which they view with much distrust as a result of its overwhelming focus on pandering to the worst achievers instead of supporting the best.

So much for all the dirctorate’s tosh about passionate lead educators, every chance to learn, diversity and inclusive classrooms. Privelaged kids get further privelaged and special needs kids get shafted and further stigmatised and the principals lead the way.

Antagonist said :

I disagree. We received NAPLAN results for our Year 3 daughter last week. She is very intelligent (both of her brothers are mentally disabled) and she is among the top students in her class. According to her teachers she is brighter than many children of her age and grade – and as her father I am biased here anyway. The results came back showing she was significantly below the national average in every single category. The NAPLAN results were promptly torn up and tossed out the window on Athllon Drive – they didn’t even deserve to be recycled.

I put it to you that NAPLAN tests tell you one thing only: how good a student is at doing NAPLAN tests in high-pressure situations that primary school students should not be subjected to.

Thats just weird, to be honest. Your daughter didnt do as well in a test as you thought she should, therefore the test is wrong? You might be of the view that year 3 kids shouldnt do the test at all, in which case why did she do it in the first place?

I am also suspicious of the ‘dont come along to the test’ notes/rumours. I’ve never heard anything like that across any of the Canberra schools, and have kids at 2 schools myself, relatives and friends at multiple other schools and several relatives who are teachers.

Antagonist said :

The NAPLAN results were promptly torn up and tossed out the window on Athllon Drive – they didn’t even deserve to be recycled.

So your response to results you didn’t like was to tear up the paper and throw them onto the road, presumably while driving.

Did your daughter see you do this? What sort of example do you think this behaviour sets?

HenryBG said :

The alternative is to provide parents with no information at all, thus eliminating their ability to exercise an informed choice.

Well I suppose that’s where we differ, because I don’t see how ‘an informed choice’ would ever lead to a better system. The OECD has also found that school ‘choice’ leads to no improvements whatsoever and in fact leads to greater segregation, entrenching of privilege and more inequity that leads to worse outcomes for the system as a whole. http://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/docserver/download/5k9fq23507vc.pdf?expires=1410477822&id=id&accname=guest&checksum=D2163D4D63C9B4A477060C944D3D61F4

NAPLAN is just a series of tests. If your year 3 daughter didn’t do well, then she either isn’t cognitively ready for exams (kids develop at different rates), or you have learned that she might need help with exam strategies in the future. But Year 3 is far too young for that sort of thing anyway.

NAPLAN fraud, letters home etc are well documented. If I can find an online published source, I’ll post it here. It was pretty rampant in the years immediately after ACT school closures because Barr used ACTAP results (the precursor to NAPLAN and designed for resource allocation) in his selection of schools for closure, without regard to the starting points of the kids going into the schools. It meant that schools were suddenly very concerned about how they looked on paper. If you keep an eye on the media, NAPLAN fraud tends to be not too far away from mass school closures.

Antagonist said :

I disagree. We received NAPLAN results for our Year 3 daughter last week. She is very intelligent (both of her brothers are mentally disabled) and she is among the top students in her class. According to her teachers she is brighter than many children of her age and grade – and as her father I am biased here anyway. The results came back showing she was significantly below the national average in every single category. The NAPLAN results were promptly torn up and tossed out the window on Athllon Drive – they didn’t even deserve to be recycled.

I put it to you that NAPLAN tests tell you one thing only: how good a student is at doing NAPLAN tests in high-pressure situations that primary school students should not be subjected to.

Would it not be worthwhile talking with your daughter about how she found the tests, were they hard, etc? I also have a year 3 child who’s results came home last week.

We figured it was a good opportunity to talk to our son about tests, what they meant, how to approach them, etc. After a chat and some questions he was quite happy about attempting the tests, and scored very well.

I am not suggesting your daughter is not smart, or that NAPLAN is some magical oracle about our kids’ learning, but instead of ripping the paper up and littering the road, would it not be prudent to keep the results and compare them to next time to look for changes, or perhaps talk to the school about it?

justin heywood said :

HenryBG said :

Where NAPLAN results become completely meaningless, however, is where a school engages in NAPLAN fraud by sending notes home with a subset of students encouraging them to take the day off, come NAPLAN day.
.

Schools have been “sending notes home to students encouraging them to take the [NAPLAN} day off” ?

Really? That would be incredibly foolish thing to do. Surely such a note would be political gold in the right hands.

Can you link to that Henry?

I can hear the computers whirring already.

CollegeTeacher said :

Of course it happens but what do you expect principals to do in a neo-liberal, market-based environment?

Uh, the job they are paid $130,000+ per annum to do? You know…making sure that children are taught to read and write properly?

Here are two suggestions for you and all your colleagues who think that the only way to improve test results is to doctor them or focus on admitting academically gifted children to your school:
1. Stop devoting scarce classroom time to teaching children about sustainability and the wonders of indigenous culture and how to support their gay friends.
2. Devote more classroom time to things that employers (and society as a whole, other than Twitter) actually care about, like proper reading and writing skills and understanding how our political system and economy work.

Any school principal who focuses on getting the basics right will inevitably see improved NAPLAN results and higher enrolments.

justin heywood said :

HenryBG said :

Where NAPLAN results become completely meaningless, however, is where a school engages in NAPLAN fraud by sending notes home with a subset of students encouraging them to take the day off, come NAPLAN day.
.

Schools have been “sending notes home to students encouraging them to take the [NAPLAN} day off” ?

Really? That would be incredibly foolish thing to do. Surely such a note would be political gold in the right hands.

Can you link to that Henry?

There are a couple of Riot Act regulars who would have seen the notes I am referring to. Perhaps they can confirm…?

Antagonist said :

I disagree. We received NAPLAN results for our Year 3 daughter last week. She is very intelligent (both of her brothers are mentally disabled) and she is among the top students in her class. According to her teachers she is brighter than many children of her age and grade – and as her father I am biased here anyway. The results came back showing she was significantly below the national average in every single category. The NAPLAN results were promptly torn up and tossed out the window on Athllon Drive – they didn’t even deserve to be recycled.

I put it to you that NAPLAN tests tell you one thing only: how good a student is at doing NAPLAN tests in high-pressure situations that primary school students should not be subjected to.

Yes, yes. Everybody’s child is a genius. A genius who can’t answer simple multiple choice questions correctly.

HenryBG said :

Where NAPLAN results become completely meaningless, however, is where a school engages in NAPLAN fraud by sending notes home with a subset of students encouraging them to take the day off, come NAPLAN day.
.

Schools have been “sending notes home to students encouraging them to take the [NAPLAN} day off” ?

Really? That would be incredibly foolish thing to do. Surely such a note would be political gold in the right hands.

Can you link to that Henry?

HenryBG said :

CollegeTeacher said :

HenryBG
No, NAPLAN and MySchool are NOT great ways to see if a school is achieving academic outcomes. Now I will acknowledge that the NAPLAN results can provide valuable diagnostic data to schools but MySchool is what corrupts it.
The 2 stated aims of NAPLAN, school improvement and public accountability, are irreconcilable because of just the reasons you have identified. As soon as you make it ‘high-stakes’, and you do by having MySchool, you are open to teaching to the test, cheating and strategic scratchings. NONE of this helps students academically and destroys school improvement.

NAPLAN reveals exactly how schools are doing, academically.
The alternative is to provide parents with no information at all, thus eliminating their ability to exercise an informed choice.

I disagree. We received NAPLAN results for our Year 3 daughter last week. She is very intelligent (both of her brothers are mentally disabled) and she is among the top students in her class. According to her teachers she is brighter than many children of her age and grade – and as her father I am biased here anyway. The results came back showing she was significantly below the national average in every single category. The NAPLAN results were promptly torn up and tossed out the window on Athllon Drive – they didn’t even deserve to be recycled.

I put it to you that NAPLAN tests tell you one thing only: how good a student is at doing NAPLAN tests in high-pressure situations that primary school students should not be subjected to.

Enrollment – US spelling
Enrolment – UK/Australian spelling

CollegeTeacher said :

HenryBG
No, NAPLAN and MySchool are NOT great ways to see if a school is achieving academic outcomes. Now I will acknowledge that the NAPLAN results can provide valuable diagnostic data to schools but MySchool is what corrupts it.
The 2 stated aims of NAPLAN, school improvement and public accountability, are irreconcilable because of just the reasons you have identified. As soon as you make it ‘high-stakes’, and you do by having MySchool, you are open to teaching to the test, cheating and strategic scratchings. NONE of this helps students academically and destroys school improvement.

NAPLAN reveals exactly how schools are doing, academically.
The alternative is to provide parents with no information at all, thus eliminating their ability to exercise an informed choice.

Strategic scratchings show up in the participation rate.

The vast majority of schools are honest.

I agree that MySchool corrupts it: modifying the results based on irrelevant socio-economic data serves only to mislead parents and reduce their ability to make informed choices.

HenryBG
No, NAPLAN and MySchool are NOT great ways to see if a school is achieving academic outcomes. Now I will acknowledge that the NAPLAN results can provide valuable diagnostic data to schools but MySchool is what corrupts it.
The 2 stated aims of NAPLAN, school improvement and public accountability, are irreconcilable because of just the reasons you have identified. As soon as you make it ‘high-stakes’, and you do by having MySchool, you are open to teaching to the test, cheating and strategic scratchings. NONE of this helps students academically and destroys school improvement.

Of course it happens but what do you expect principals to do in a neo-liberal, market-based environment? School ‘choice’ works both ways which means the schools are also selecting the students/parents.
If principals are trying to do the best for their school they will want it to look good because that, and that alone, will lead to future success in a competitive environment. As we are currently judging schools on the very narrow measures of basic literacy and numeracy skills in NAPLAN, of course students with high skills will be snapped up.
What you seem to be advocating is a community/systemic approach that we unfortunately abandoned long ago under the belief that competition always leads to improvements.

NAPLAN and MySchool is a great way to see whether a school is achieving academic outcomes.

There are many reasons any particular school might be academically substandard, some of them for reasons the school can do nothing about, but it isn’t any individual parent’s job to be participating in social engineering when choosing where to enrol their child – every parent should want the best for their child, and should be making decisions accordingly.

Where NAPLAN results become completely meaningless, however, is where a school engages in NAPLAN fraud by sending notes home with a subset of students encouraging them to take the day off, come NAPLAN day.
The dead giveaway for NAPLAN fraud is an anomalously low participation rate. If there is something far, far worse than an academically-challenged school, it is a school that both struggles academically AND is run on the basis of lies and dishonesty.
Academic success, while important, isn’t the sole measure of educational success, but an academically-challenged school run by dishonest people who think it appropriate to rope children into their fraudulent practices to cover up their educational incompetence will undoubtedly have severe impacts on a child’s subsequent integration to society.