RiotACT Face Off: Light Rail or Bullet Train

Ben_Dover said :

Light rail from Gungahlin to Civic will be great for 200 Canberrans, whereas a Bullet Train connecting Canberra to Sydney will benefit 400,000+ Canberrans and surrounding residents.

Fixed that for you.

My experience from travelling on VFTs overseas is that that unless the tickets are purchased well in advance they are too expensive for the average punter to buy “on the day”.
VFT’s are great for the plan-ahead tourists, business people and the wealthy.
The current Canberra-Sydney-Canberra Xplorer service (and the Indian Pacific) is heavily patronised by concession card holders who pay next to nothing for the former. This is not sustainable now and it won’t be available on a VFT.
If a subsidised Canberra – Sydney VFT is introduced it will put the airlines out of business just the same as what happened when the French TGV started running from Paris to Lyon.
This is not what you probably not what you want to hear and while our federal, state and territory governments are already overcommitted there is absolutely no hope of it ever happening.

I think it is time for all to have a cup of tea, a Bex and a good lie down.
Canberra is simply a large regional city that exists on the behest of the taxpayer.
It’s aggregate growth appears to have peaked.
While our main export industry (education) is growing the main employer (public service) is shrinking.
The emerging “industry” is retirees and they are already under financial stress as Canberra is too expensive to live in retirement so their disposable income will be depleted.
Rather than aim to cater for a population of 500,000 plus, the ACT Government should look to consolidating on what we have now and respond only to real needs.
The last thing we need to do is borrow huge sums of money to fund visionary infrastructure projects of the “build it and they will come” types. In fact, we already have a huge deficit and no government has ever spent its way out of debt.
The light rail, new (even smaller) stadium, the new convention centre and any talk of a VFT must be taken off the agenda immediately.
Over the top and backdoor funding of underperforming professional sporting teams must cease.
It was a terrible mistake to increase the size of the assembly also. The only benefit that may accrue is that some new members may have more of clue of how hard it is to earn a dollar and invest it wisely.

I’d be happy with a Bus Rapid Transit system and an XPT that could sustain its maximum service speed of 160kmph to Sydney.

All-or-none arguments can go to hell.

Light rail from Gungahlin to Civic will be great for 200 Canberrans, whereas a Bullet Train connecting Canberra to Sydney will benefit 400,000+ Canberrans and surrounding residents.

Fixed that for you.

CBRDan said :

I am surprised that someone is trying to compare the 2. There is little to compare other than both being nice for rail enthusiasts. A bit like comparing an interstate coach to a small commuter motorcycle both move people but have a completely different function and the impact to the community is also vastly different.
I am pro both but do not think the ACT has enough commuters for VFT yet. We certainly have enough for Trams.

When formulating an opinion on this I need to consider the following.

– A tram supports a local community with a focus on local goals. With local gov commitments
– VFT supports a global (AU) community and would require funding and agreements across multiple agencies both federal and local
– A tram creates local jobs and a support network 100% focused in the ACT. Servicing, upgrades, maintenance and other will almost all be local with a tram service
– VFT will be serviced and maintained (most likely) in Sydney or Melbourne with only minor works performed locally. With a single stop (maybe 2) in the ACT
– A tram service will eliminate traffic during peak time and therefore possibly reduce the road toll and reduce costs in insurance due to fewer accidents down the main roads feeding our hubs. Count the bus accidents per annum versus tram accidents in low density cities
– VFT will eliminate traffic for interstate commuters but most will still use Air. VFT will not reduce trucks on the road and therefore not reduce the TCO of highways
– A tram service will service the low to mid economic class. Reducing the cost to live and work in the ACT therefore boosting the quality of life and reducing vehicles on the road for all users. Not just for the users in the tram zone
– VFT is for middle to high income people who need to commute at high speeds and who are time poor. People who cant afford the high cost of VFT tickets will still utilise bus services between CBR and SYD. As for the argument of meetings via VFT. The majority of meetings in the next 5 to 10 years will move more towards Video Conferencing as technology in this space explodes with higher speed internet and low cost Video Conferencing units

In summary I think light rail is a great idea as long as it is managed correctly and the stations are Canberra weather proof. Not a stick in the ground giving no protection in summer and winter like the bus stops. Please put in free parking at the major stops. With exit to parking via your tram ticket.

The salient point of your analysis is:
“light rail is a great idea”.
The operative word is “idea”.

Bullet train +1

I feel that Canberra isn’t all that big to have a train service from one region/suburb to the city.

I’m from Glasgow, Scotland, we have an underground loop train service, I think the light rail would only be a benefit if it linked in many suburbs and regions, similar to that of the tram service in Melbs. I feel the journey from Gungahlin to the city is not that bad,

I love the idea of the bullet train Canberra to Sydney

Light Rail or Bullet Train?

Or to put it another way:

Would you like to set alight a large pile of money or a very large pile of money?

I am surprised that someone is trying to compare the 2. There is little to compare other than both being nice for rail enthusiasts. A bit like comparing an interstate coach to a small commuter motorcycle both move people but have a completely different function and the impact to the community is also vastly different.
I am pro both but do not think the ACT has enough commuters for VFT yet. We certainly have enough for Trams.

When formulating an opinion on this I need to consider the following.

– A tram supports a local community with a focus on local goals. With local gov commitments
– VFT supports a global (AU) community and would require funding and agreements across multiple agencies both federal and local
– A tram creates local jobs and a support network 100% focused in the ACT. Servicing, upgrades, maintenance and other will almost all be local with a tram service
– VFT will be serviced and maintained (most likely) in Sydney or Melbourne with only minor works performed locally. With a single stop (maybe 2) in the ACT
– A tram service will eliminate traffic during peak time and therefore possibly reduce the road toll and reduce costs in insurance due to fewer accidents down the main roads feeding our hubs. Count the bus accidents per annum versus tram accidents in low density cities
– VFT will eliminate traffic for interstate commuters but most will still use Air. VFT will not reduce trucks on the road and therefore not reduce the TCO of highways
– A tram service will service the low to mid economic class. Reducing the cost to live and work in the ACT therefore boosting the quality of life and reducing vehicles on the road for all users. Not just for the users in the tram zone
– VFT is for middle to high income people who need to commute at high speeds and who are time poor. People who cant afford the high cost of VFT tickets will still utilise bus services between CBR and SYD. As for the argument of meetings via VFT. The majority of meetings in the next 5 to 10 years will move more towards Video Conferencing as technology in this space explodes with higher speed internet and low cost Video Conferencing units

In summary I think light rail is a great idea as long as it is managed correctly and the stations are Canberra weather proof. Not a stick in the ground giving no protection in summer and winter like the bus stops. Please put in free parking at the major stops. With exit to parking via your tram ticket.

mabinogi said :

Both…

But the ACT government doesn’t have the power to create a high speed rail network. They do have the power to create a light rail network.

I also don’t understand where this idea that it’s only happening because the Greens held the government to ransom over it.

Labor went to the election with a policy for light rail – the agreement with the Greens may have modified the resultant policy a little, but it’s pretty much bordering on outright bullshit to imply that the only reason Capital Metro exists is due to the Greens.

Labor went into the election with this policy knowing that if they formed government it would likely be with a minority assisted by the Greens. I think the Greens advancing their policy position is the sole reason we are even having this discussion.

Of course, if a member of a political party was elected and was put in a position where they could influence the political landscape to achieve their aims, they would be a fool not to, so it’s no real suprise this is happening. It doesn’t make it a good idea, though.

Many commenters are ignoring the question asked “Given the current financial climate, are our municipal funds better spent on light rail or a bullet train?”. I asked and was told that it referred only to ACT funds, not federal money.

It is more likely we can fund light rail than any bullet train.

If anyone can show how the ACT government can fund a bullet train – the floor is yours.

PS: Hyperloop hasn’t even left the drawing board yet. There are no prototypes, the technology hasn’t even been trialled much less proven and commercialised. Don’t hold your breath.

Building a HSR from Brisbane to Melbourne will ensure that the real estate is available for a hyper loop, with the hyper loop tubes being built above the existing HSR tracks.

So build the HSR in the next five years, the over-build or supplement with hyper loop once the technology is actually available.

If it was my money, and I had to choose between one or the other, I’d go with the high speed rail option first. The extra traffic this would bring to Canberra (mainly from using Canberra as Sydney’s second airport) would then drive the demand for a local light rail system.

Of course there are caveats. The HSR would have to be able to link Canberra, Sydney and Melbourne airports as directly as possible, and those links would have to provide easy access to local transport such as busses, taxis, trams, light rail and rental cars. Brisbane airport has a great set-up: you get off the plane and the airport train is right there for you. Sydney airport has connections to the light rail system: one station each for international and domestic airports.

But where will the HSR fit? Sydney real estate is at a premium, and HSR needs a 100–200m wide clearway. It’s likely that most of the cost of a HSR would simply be gaining access to the land required to build the railway between Campbelltown and Sydney, crossing the harbour, then linking to Newcastle and Brisbane. Rails, trains, power contracts? Chicken feed!

Of course all these things come with externalities: a high speed rail link from Brisbane through Sydney and Canberra to Melbourne has many opportunities for regional stations: Marulan is a half way point between Sydney and Canberra with some professional couples I know living there because one commutes to Sydney, the other to Canberra. For some people, a HSR will mean that housing affordability is achievable by moving to where housing is affordable and commuting to work via HSR and LR.

The HSR will be a great economic boon for towns where it stops: if you can get from a home in Marulan to an office in Canberra in under an hour-and-a-half that it currently takes to commute, you’re on a winner. Even exceeding that hour and a half might be a good value proposition if you have facilities such as WiFi and a cafe or kitchen so morning commuters can have breakfast and catch up with their morning newsfeed on their commute.

Thus the HSR would improve housing affordability for people with jobs in Canberra, without requiring a devaluation of the Canberra housing market.

But that’s just my uninformed opinion.

This is a pretty spurious set up, the two projects are completely unrelated. It is within ACT capacities to deliver lightrail, whereas east coast HSR would be the biggest, most complex, most expensive infrastructure project the country had ever embarked upon. It speaks volumes that Mr Bohm thinks getting elected to the ACT Legislative Assembly will give him any say in anything to do with HSR.

Both…

But the ACT government doesn’t have the power to create a high speed rail network. They do have the power to create a light rail network.

I also don’t understand where this idea that it’s only happening because the Greens held the government to ransom over it.

Labor went to the election with a policy for light rail – the agreement with the Greens may have modified the resultant policy a little, but it’s pretty much bordering on outright bullshit to imply that the only reason Capital Metro exists is due to the Greens.

I agree with Damien that comparing Light Rail to Bullet Train is apples and oranges. One may as well have a debate about education or health care. Each has a different function.

How about a bullet train from Gungahlin to Civic? Best of both worlds then!

Seriously though, I don’t think light rail or a bullet train would be financially viable. Reasons why light rail isn’t viable have been bought up a million times already, there is no need for me to repeat these.

No one seems to have worked out the cost to build a bullet train system,though a quick Google search brings up a proposal for one in America from LA to San Francisco – so similar in distance from Canberra to Melbourne – at a cost of US$68B. Then there is the ongoing maintenance and running costs (inc staff + amenities, replacement trains every 10 (?) or so years).

There would need to be a reason for people to use a bullet train rather than fly or drive. A plane trip from Canberra to Sydney (not including driving to airport or parking costs, but you would have these with bullet trains anyway) costs around $300 and takes about an hour.

Driving a car takes about 3 – 4 hours and uses maybe $40 -$50 fuel. So a bullet train would need to be faster and cheaper than flying so as to attract clients.

Seems unlikely the cost of a fare would be able to match or undercut the airfare given the capital investment required to start it off.

Not sure about the speed of a bullet train and how many stops it would be expected to do between Canberra and Sydney but I expect it would be slower than flying. So if this is correct, then why would you use it?

+1 Bullet Train
Why don’t we have high speed rail yet?

Next face off: Bullet Train v Hyperloop!
or even sport based face off: GWS Sponsorship v Raiders /Brumbies Sponsorship

In an ideal world, the final approach to Canberra would be a line suitable for both a high speed train (which won’t be travelling at high speed so close to the Canberra station stop) and a commuter service (because 99% of the time there won’t be a high speed train anywhere near Canberra). It could also service a lot more than Gunners.

Public transport planning in Canberra is far from an ideal world.

Damien Haas: “Tourists visiting the nations capital will no longer get lost on the wrong bus”.

Welcome to the bottom of the barrel in the justification for light rail.

All common sense comments so far, but… Labor isn’t reliant on retaining government by doing a deal with the Green (sic) party for high speed rail, so strike that off the list.

Sorry people, Mayor Rattenbury has decided his legacy to our city to be a short, restricted, destructive, disruptive, unviable, uneconomical, ugly tram system; we just have to accept it and pay for it. Apparently.

BTW: Mr Creosote in Sydney?

High-speed-rail all the way! Of course both would be great but honestly having the high speed rail should be the priority for Canberra. It changes everything and for a city pushing to get its population over 500,000 this needs to happen for the future of our city. Its viable – Its time – Canberra lets make it happen! #bullettrainforcanberra

Based on the discussion presented it’s bullet train all the way for me.

Bullet train +1

Personally I’d be much happier waiting 5 years and seeing how the Hyperloop technology progresses before choosing a high speed rail option. From the technology perspective we are still hurtling large and extremely heavy objects through the environment for transport. A concept like the hyperloop where passengers go inside of pods in an semi depressurised tube over comes a lot of the huge costs associated with pushing a train in the open air.

So my advice is to wait to see what China and the US do with it because there is zero chance of course that we’ll be pioneers in new technology.

http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperloop

Bohm 1 – 0 Hass