More measures to cut the road toll

quote from cranky
“”Our AFP officers are given a 2 week training course, not available to the ordinary motorist, which apparently endows them with the ability to travel at any speed they consider necessary, in the course of the job. This extends to the ability to use 2 way radios/mobile phones at any time, without compromising their car control. Unlike we mortal motorists.””

I live on a main intersection between ACT and NSW have seen police going so fast they jump the intersection in a 50km zone, and yet are going nowhere in a hurry. No calls, no lights, no sirens nothing. If you ring and ask you are told to mind your own business.

I would also like to ask the Govvy what they are going to do with the pollies, PS and “blue platers” caught speeding. (blue as in those embassy people etc that seem to be exempt)
Make them pay up!!!!!

P2P cameras are typical govt BS that doesn’t get to the root of the issue, and unfortunately there are enough sheeple who believe anything the govt or media says. Serious road safety initiatives would include detailed analysis of the cause of accidents, and target those things. Sending people a couple of hundred dollar fine for driving at 110km/h along the Monaro Hwy or Parkway achieves nothing.

Initially, I’d hope primarily for greater marked police presence, and for that police presence to target the sort of stupidity we see on our roads every day, such as lane hogging, lack of indicating, speeding up to prevent the guy in front of you changing into your lane, etc. In other parts of the world, police are more interested in getting the traffic to flow as smoothly as possible. Our nanny state does nothing more than lull people into a false sense of security that because they’re below the speed limit, they’re ‘safe’.

no-one getting caught sounds like a good thing, that means no-one was speeding. last accident i saw in a black spot was not due to speed, but these sjould also get cameras. to use p2p i imagine you need a stretch of road ‘suitable for speeding’ and maintaining that speed.

i imagine it is like red cameras, everyone knows they are there so it deters the unwanted behaviour.

I’d feel a lot happier if the speed limits were set to some formula which took into account the speed at which the majority of traffic used, if not artificially restricted.

We are repeatedly told that 100K’s is the maximum that ACT motorists are safely able to travel, but there are of course anomalies.

We are instantly endowed with greater ability on crossing the NSW border on the Federal Highway, when we are rewarded with the 110K limit.

Our AFP officers are given a 2 week training course, not available to the ordinary motorist, which apparently endows them with the ability to travel at any speed they consider necessary, in the course of the job. This extends to the ability to use 2 way radios/mobile phones at any time, without compromising their car control. Unlike we mortal motorists.

We HAVE fools on the road, but the blanket imposition of unrealistically lower speed limits, and the black and white imposition of fines (unlike recent decisions by Police on the ground), which capture many otherwise safe, competent drivers, is revenue raising.

The response that these are self imposed fines becomes a nonsense when the limits are deliberately set at a level below the (publically) perceived safe speed, not as a result of scientific study, but as a method of income raising by a miserable bureaucracy/government.

We elect these people. Why do we allow this manipulation of society to take place? We should not have to be constantly reduced to the level of the lowest common denominator.

Sounds stupid. I doubt anyone would be stupid enough to get caught so you can’t call it revenue raising.

I think it’s just a lazy way for the Govt to say they’re doing something about saving lives.

As pointed out somewhere above none of the current speed cameras are in accident black spots. They’re all wide open straight strips of road with massive signs warning you that they’re there.

As for the cameras on the parkway, the last time I remember someone dieing on that road was when a group of kids hit the tree just past the hindmarsh dr bridge a few years ago. I think that was due to an overloaded car, heavy rain and the state of the road.

Maybe what we do need is use these new cameras to put a toll on the parkway. That way it is revenue raising and maybe he could use some of the money to fix the damn thing.

Sounds good. If you know it’s there and you speed then it’s your own fault, so yopu can’t claim this revenue raising.

Yep I’m just about willing to wager a bet that if this goes ahead Canberra will get the same idiotic zero tolerance as Victoria. And also if we come back 12 months after the introduction of these revenue raisers we should see a corresponding increase in the accident rate due to reduced traffic flow, frustration and inattention from drivers with their eyes glued to the speedo.

Pommy bastard said :

blaringmike said :

All P2P camera’s will do is make ppl spend less time watching the road and more time starring at the speedo. All this will do is catch your average driver for going 102 in a 100 zone.

Why would they change the % leeway allowed,just because P2P cameras are introduced?

Because all they P2P camera’s are for is revenue. And the lower the leeway the more money they rake in. Look at VIC, they take in huge amounts of money through speed camera’s each year. They will fine you for 2+. Seeing the Grubberment is going to be looking under couches for scrap metal to balance the books I can easily see them lowering the leeway allowed for speed infringement revenue.

The question is of those 4 or less that have speeding as a contributing factor. Was any alcohol or fatigue involved as well because that tends to be the primary reason where as the govt propaganda machine always likes to lock onto the evil speed stats.

There is no question that the primary reason for these cameras is revenue raising. There can be no other reason for installing them on the safe 4 lane divided expressway.

I went and checked and of the 14 deaths only 4 may have been from speeding.
People over 75yrs was almost half, totalling 6 deaths and not ALL were accidents caused by bad driving. Some of these deaths were from aged people being hit by cars with no fault to the driver. Others were minor accidents but due to the frailty of the aged drivers/passengers proved to be fatal.

Instead of spending a fortune with more cameras etc why not use the money to check on the elderly drivers?
I’m not sure what age the ACT has for elderly to go and ‘prove’ they are still fit to drive, or how often they have to do it, but obviously it needs to be looked into.

If 4 or less fatal accidents were from speed and 6 were from elderly drivers, it would make more sense to cut the road toll by reviewing the elderly drivers checks.

Also considering out of the 4 (or less) involving speeding 1 or 2 would be unregistered cars/unlicenced drivers, then speed cameras are NOT going to do anything about them anyway. Nor will cameras catch or have any effect on the 4 drug/alcohol road deaths.

I am glad Stanhope listened to my suggeston about P2P being installed on the Parkway (frightway) as a fuel economy measure firstly and secondly a safety measure. I am sick to death of the morons who fly up to the existing cameras at, say 120km/h, brake to say 80km/h while changing into the left lane across the front of vehicles doing a constant 100 km/h. For those who are frightened of contributing to govt revenue – buy a cruise control equipped car and avoid the worry.

Now if ony plod would pay attention to tailgating (nose to tail collisions are running at nearly 50% of all collisions) and those stupid and dazzling “wayne kerr” lights that seem to adorn just about every Subaru in town.

What a load of crap. Put more police on the roads – they don’t just catch people speeding, but all kinds of other (more dangerous) stupidity.

And community service would be a more equal punishment than fines, since people are all on different incomes. (and probably more deterring than simply posting an extra bill on the internet)

This is what Stanhope said “Just for the sake of example, I think the Tuggeranong parkway is a good example of how a point to point camera would work,”

Now just how many people are getting killed on that road?

And what this is going to do is reduce the speed on that road in quiet periods to around 90kmhr as the average joe will be paranoid about getting a ticket and will sit well under the speed limit. In peak hour its going to be a lot worse I would say average would drop into the 70 to 80kmhr region.

Cut the road toll? What a stupid idea! Every time there’s a long weekend and they put the scorecard up, we’re losing! And we lose even more worser because most of our incompetent drivers have their prangs in New South Wales, so NSW gets ACT’s points!

Stanhopeless is planning to introduce more speed cameras, “ironically” to be funded by speedsters. Therefore he is conceding that speed cams don’t (and can’t) change the behaviour/ mindset of drivers (if they did, no-one would be getting caught now after being in operation for so many years) and are just voluntary taxation devices for the dumb.

In relation to PTP cams, I assume the four most recently installed cameras on the Parkway (2 each North and Southbound, near the Cotter Rd and Hindmarsh Dr overpasses)were anticipated at the time of installation to be used for PTP use. If that’s the case, then a)drivers taking a turnoff before the second camera could still speed after passing the first camera as they won’t be checked again; b) drivers will just make up their “time lost” between the PTP cams by either going even faster before or after the zone; or c) the Govt will need to install cameras at every turnoff at enormous expense for very little benefit to the road toll. Same would apply to the Monaro highway and lots of other potentially profitable – err, unsafe – locations.

My suggestions? First, I would support the removal of speed cameras and a doubling of traffic police. That means all drivers would be immediately aware of their actions, a cop could take other circumstances into consideration (weather, traffic flow etc) and conduct a vehicle inspection/breath test at the same time. But, let face it, that’s never going to happen with a Govermnent addicted to easy revenue and governing by media releases. So maybe…

If you are caught exceeding the speed limit by 10km/h, for a first offence in the 5 year period of your licence, within 4 weeks you must attend at your expense (say the equivalent fine amount) a two hour road safety seminar. This would discuss stopping/reaction times, increased risk per 10km/h over the posted limit, cost of road trauma etc. By running the seminar, the Gov’t isnt just sitting back posting out fines and waiting for the payments to come in but proactively working with people who need to change their behaviour. Non attendees receive a one month licence suspension or loss of 6 demerit points. Second offence – as above plus 6 demerit points and the driver to display a S plate (like a P or L plate) for 12 months. Third or further offences – dealt with by the courts, no exceptions, S plate of a different colour etc.

If you are caught by a camera at between 5 and 9 km/h over you get a warning letter and that is kept on record to be considered in any future court actions. (NB No action up to 5km/h over to allow for speedo error; school zones to continue to be be actively policed with radar and no cameras).

As a caveat to my “hanging judge” comments, the Govt should also bear in mind that most people are neither suicidal or culpable and travel at a reasonable speed, even if it is 5 or 10km/h over the posted limit. For sure, go after the ratbags who fly down the parkway at 200+ or even in 50 km/h suburban streets at over 80, but if you are going to allow some leniency with drink driving (ie an .05 limit to allow for 2 or 3 drinks) then don’t be hypocritical (oh look, a flying pig!) and allow some margin for speed too.

Phew…

Monomania @ #18 – you’d expect the ACT to be much lower than other states, with bugger all in the way of country roads, and wide boulevardes in much of the city which aren’t exactly heavily trafficked.

It seems a little odd that with all the million$ of dollar$ revenue the ACT Govt must be making from speed camera$ they repair/resurface the roads in such a cheap arse way using the spray tar over loose gravel. They should be able to afford beautiful smooth 4 lane highway type roads everywhere (think Tuggeranong Parkway) rather than the two lane goat tracks we have now (GDE).

Pommy bastard said :

As a sedate driver I have no concerns over P2P speed cameras. However, could those here criticising their use, and the other measures which may be put in place to make roads more safe, please offer an alternative, rather than just citique the proposal? Hmmmmm

I don’t think there is one unless you had a camera on every strech of road.

As for the criticisim I beleive it is warranted. The government goes on about cutting deaths due to speeding, yet places the cameras in places where speeding is going to be the least likly cause of death on the roads.

Except that he wants them on the Parkway as he hates Tuggeranong . . . hence the gaol, tip, power station, helicopter base, possible crematorium . . . it will be sweet revenge for stymying his bully boy tactics.

If stanhopeless was genuinely concerned about making the roads safer he would be pumping funding into the AFP, in particular the traffic division, to put more marked police cars on the road, instead of having them sit in the yard at the city police station all day as they normally are.

At this point I highly doubt his plans to turn the cameras on the parkway into point to point cameras will succeed. Trying to accurately calibrate the 2 cameras that have a huge hill in between and on a surface that isn’t the best piece of road has little chance of succeeding in the first place. Anyone who has driven to melbourne along the hume would have seen the p2p cameras on the new bypass section just before entering metropolitan melbourne. They had problems implementing them, and they’re on a flat smooth piece of road, so I don’t like the chances of them implementing them on the parkway.

#16 …
Good idea. May I suggest more?
a)Unmarked speed camera cars as used in Victoria and SA.

– You mean like a plain-white tarago? Or maybe the little green laser hatchback?

d)Ban GPS navigators and speed alert angles that may alert where fixed cameras are located and.or what the speed limit is on a bit of road.

– Hang on, you want to ban GPS’s with speed-alerts? Why dont we just ban speed-limit signs or speedometers in cars too? What is wrong with a GPS beeping to let you know youre travelling in excess of the speed limit? What about an interstate visitor to Canberra, travelling down our 3-lane arterial (Northborne Avenue) unaware the speed limit is 60km/hr? My GPS not only advises of where fixed speed cameras are, but also knows the speed limit for various roads and tells me instantly if Im close to exceeding the limit. Having a GPS tell you the speed limit is no different to seeing it in black and white on a sign, except that the GPS wont be hidden behind a tree branch like the speed-limit sign.

a) to d) would help with revenue raising

You hit the nail on the head in one swoop.

Heres a couple of suggestions which might actually make a change:
a) Get rid of cameras on straight-roads that dont have accidents and move them to busy intersections.
b) Increase the number of police traffic patrols in high visibility vehicles, instead of unmarked cars whos sole job is to catch the one WRX per month that tries to race them.
c) Scrap the whole fine system for traffic infringements. Replace it with community service orders. If a young bloke can afford a $30,000 car, will he care about a $100 ticket? Make him do 10hrs of community service and see if that doesnt change em.
d) Implement a range of new ideas such as point-to-point cameras, but review them after a pre-decided period (6 or 12 months) and if they havent benefitted road-safety then get rid of them and try something different.

Unfortunately none of these suggestions would be looked at, since they would only serve to increase road-safety and would decrease revenue for the government.

I agree shauno, where is the empirical evidence that this will actually prevent more accidents?

Sounds like they are looking for ways to milk the cash cow even more. I have noticed that the speed cameras all seem to be in places unlikely to have accidents anyway, eg the ones on Monaro Hwy. Blatant revenue raising, and prejudicial against those with older vehicles (ie the less well off) that don’t have vehicles with that thing you set to go beep if you go over the speed you set (whatever that dooverlackie is called).

As a new thought on this,
How many of those killed on ACT roads were from ACT?
I know when I would drive around trying to find my way I would get lost with the amount of signs and the continual speed changes..

I wonder if all 14 people in 2008 were ACT residents who knew thier way around or if some were just lost and made an error.
Does anyone know if it was 14 seperate accidents or maybe a few accidents with a couple of people killed in each?

Its got nothing at all to do with road safety in fact its more likely to make things worse. With drivers taking their eyes off the road to constantly look at the speed. Where is the data that shows speed is a huge problem in Canberra causing fatalities that warrant such intrusive surveillance. And more road safety signs give us a break piss off out of our lives and we don’t need any more of this nanny state crap.

Actually the A.C.T. has the best record in Australia in terms of road death.

These figures are for 2006 but are pretty consistent over the last 10 years.

Death rates per 100000 people

A.C.T.                 3.89
N.S.W.                 6.50
Victoria               6.38

Death rates per 100 million vehicle kilometres travelled

A.C.T.                0.43
Victoria             0.62
South Aust.      0.74  

monomania said :

14 deaths a year is not enough for any meaningful statistical analysis of road deaths.

http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/roads/safety/publications/2008/Ann_Stats_2007.aspx

has data on ages and type of road user going back decades but not all are itemised by state.

I was wrong. Table 30 Death by State/Territory and Road User – 1983 to 2007

Good idea. May I suggest more?

a)Unmarked speed camera cars as used in Victoria and SA.

b)Fines for anyone warning others of location of a)

c)Hidden fixed speed cameras as used in Victoria

d)Ban GPS navigators and speed alert angles that may alert where fixed cameras are located and.or what the speed limit is on a bit of road.

a) to d) would help with revenue raising

14 deaths a year is not enough for any meaningful statistical analysis of road deaths.

http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/roads/safety/publications/2008/Ann_Stats_2007.aspx

has data on ages and type of road user going back decades but not all are itemised by state.

blaringmike said :

All P2P camera’s will do is make ppl spend less time watching the road and more time starring at the speedo. All this will do is catch your average driver for going 102 in a 100 zone.

Why would they change the % leeway allowed,just because P2P cameras are introduced?

more police presence on the roads. Used to work wonders when I was a young bloke and more inclined to drive faster.

The threat of more cop cars being around to see what you’re doing won’t necessarily get people to slow down all the time… but a real live officer on patrol is far more useful to the general public than a camera on a pole ever will be.

cranky said :

When the much vaunted Victorian model can be shown to have ANY positive effect on road fatalities/trauma, these will only be revenue raising devices.

Can anyone post a link to a consolidated listing of road fatalities in the ACT in the past year? My gut feeling is that unfortunately aged motorists/pedestrians and inner suburban motorcyclists, with a possible suicide thrown in, made up a large portion of local deaths.

Not actually a list http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/01/02/2457877.htm?site=canberra

Mr Waffle,
Usually the only time police are near road works is after they have been rang by the workers due to traffic failing to slow down.
Chances are he was just there for show until the traffic levels dropped or the traffic began slowing by itself.

How asbout going back to basics and ticketing all those dills who never use their indicators?

P2P cameras make more sense than spot ones.

The signs in NZ are actually pretty good – although their effectiveness is probably marginal. People who drive sensisbly and are law abiding don’t need them and the idiots who regard driving as a display of their manliness probably either can’t understand them, or think they are invincible and the messages don’t apply to them. The trick is to not let them near cars or licenses until they are grown up enough to use them properly – and for many people that is still not the case well into their 20’s, 30’s, 40’s (ever?).

hmmm, budget going into deficit. I know put in more revenue raisers.

All P2P camera’s will do is make ppl spend less time watching the road and more time starring at the speedo. All this will do is catch your average driver for going 102 in a 100 zone.

The fixed cameras are bad enough, when your following someone and they jam on the brakes and try and squeeze into the left lane just before the camera.

On the topic of speed cameras, I saw an odd thing when driving from Fyshwick up the Monaro Highway to Civic on Friday at lunchtime- there are 60kph roadworks signs posted a little bit before the roadworks on the intersection leading to the airport. There was a police car sitting next to the 60kph sign with an officer pointing what I assume was a radar gun or something down the road towards us. The traffic was backed up because of the traffic lights so everyone was well under the limit, but I can’t help but wonder what the deal was. Would he be trying to ping people doing the normal 80kph or the 60kph of the sign he’s standing right next to!?

As a sedate driver I have no concerns over P2P speed cameras. However, could those here criticising their use, and the other measures which may be put in place to make roads more safe, please offer an alternative, rather than just citique the proposal? Hmmmmm

Most media state it was almost half people aged 75yrs or over and 28% involving drug/alcohol that died on ACT roads in 2008.
That leaves less that 1/4 that MAY have been caused due to speeding.

Speed cameras are only good for catching legal drivers.
A percent of fines sent out each year are never paid as the cars are unregistered/false plates or are stolen cars.

Seeing signs for speed cameras etc means nothing compared to driving along with a police car in view.

When the much vaunted Victorian model can be shown to have ANY positive effect on road fatalities/trauma, these will only be revenue raising devices.

Can anyone post a link to a consolidated listing of road fatalities in the ACT in the past year? My gut feeling is that unfortunately aged motorists/pedestrians and inner suburban motorcyclists, with a possible suicide thrown in, made up a large portion of local deaths.

Nothing a speed camera on the Parkway would have prevented.

As you say, the younger generations don’t watch much commercial media anymore. We end up in places like this, particularly on weekends where everything is closed for the holiday.

If anything, sneaking out controversial press on days like today will count against them with younger people while still being only marginally effective with the oldies.

As for P2P speed cameras, bleh, old news. Have you ever driven down the Hume Freeway between Wodonga and Melbourne? Smile for the P2P cameras!

As for “Drink, Drive, Die in a Ditch”, every time some clown drinks and drives and doesn’t die in a ditch, they will feel a bit more empowered to keep doing it, since that message is clearly wrong or applies to other people but not to him/her. It works both ways.