Ice on pathways in Parliamentary Triangle?

tidalik said :

You poor thing. Black ice is notoriously hard to see, hence the name. You have every right to seek compensation if it’s caused by run-off. Really, who does watering on a cold winter’s morning?

I know a very good personal injury lawyer, if you need a recommendation. (JB – can we do public recommendations or do they have to be private messages?)

While I do not wish to take sides in this argument, I am going to Jump up and SCREAM, at the obligatory “Black Ice” Poster.

Ice formed from freezing run-off water, is NOT BLACK ICE!!! Black ice is a very specific, and dangerous occurrence, which goes far beyond the dangers posed by the formation of regular (Or White) ice.

DO NOT TRY TO MAKE THIS SEEM LESS AVOIDABLE BY USING THE TERM “BLACK ICE” INAPPROPRIATELY!

Thos situation may, or may not have been avoidable to the OP, and not having seen the area in question, at this time, I do not know where fault lies, however, using ‘Hype Terms’ such as black ice, is only adding confusion to the debate!

recommend away.

You poor thing. Black ice is notoriously hard to see, hence the name. You have every right to seek compensation if it’s caused by run-off. Really, who does watering on a cold winter’s morning?

I know a very good personal injury lawyer, if you need a recommendation. (JB – can we do public recommendations or do they have to be private messages?)

Cycling is so dangerous, it should be banned.

Cheap said :

So everyone just sat back and watched the carnage? Didn’t think to warn any of the six cyclists of the danger? Its you who should be sued.

That’s harsh. Person was lying there with a broken pelvis – and you want them punished for not setting up a couple of flags and a sign.

Nice trolling though.

For those ‘confused’:

– if you do something that foreseeably could result in an injury to another person and it does cause injury, then you are negligent. Possibly turning sprinklers on when the water would run down onto a bike path during a cold spell, then freeze and not be visible, could come within this category – or maybe not.

– however, if you do something that you didn’t realise could result in an injury to a person, but it does and you were told about it, and you then do exactly the same thing again and it results in an injury to another person, then you are almost certainly negligent.

Sure there are defences to this – for example, what systems were put in place to avoid the negligent act. And to what extent has a person contributed to the accident by failing to keep a lookout or by (for example) riding too fast for the potential conditions (whether or not the ice was visible, ice after a cold night is arguably a known hazard).

There is no ‘nanny state’ about this issue or issues of accepting personal responsibility. If the NCA knew they were creating a risky situation, because they had done it before and caused injury, then why should the OP be the one to bear all of the damage and loss?

Holden Caulfield said :

I’m all for people accepting personal responsibility. However, that should not absolve organisations of accepting their own corporate responsibilities.

Watering in a shady place during a Canberra winter, really? Aside from the fact that it’s probably a waste of water, if ice is as prevalent as everyone is saying and there’s a cycle path nearby is it really that much to ask the NCA to consider the consequence of their actions?

As individuals we’re asked to ensure our domestic watering does not spill onto footpaths and roadways. Probably for different reasons than concern the OP, but the point remains, we all have responsibilities as individuals and organisations.

Sure stick it up the OP if it makes you feel better, but let’s not forget responsibility is a two-way street.

+1

I used to work along King Edward Tce for many years until a couple of months ago and the amount of times the sprinklers were turned on irresponsibly was ridiculous.

Either in the middle of winter when the grass was still wet from the night before, or in the middle of a 40 degree day in the middle of the drought when the rest of us weren’t allowed to water at all. All the time these sprinklers are left to run off onto the paths and roads, and I’m surprised people haven’t been hurt in this way earlier.

Hope you recover quickly 🙂

Watson said :

It annoys me to when sprinklers managed by a government organisation – local or federal – spill water all over footpaths or the road. Because of the waste of water, not because “it might form ice and then people might slip on it”. As much as I feel for people getting injured for whatever reason, having grown up in a country where some winter nights you were unable to get home because of freezing rain forming a uniform layer of ice on everything, this topic doese my head in.

Really, you grew up outside of Australia? Why haven’t you mentioned that before?

Personally, I’m not too fussed about the whole NCA sprinkler issue. My concern is more over the principle of people getting stuck in to the OP for supposedly not accepting his share of responsibility while ignoring the responsibilities that should be expected of the NCA.

Perhaps the NCA has no case to answer, I’m no lawyer so I can’t advise on that. However, I think the OP is within reason to at least explore the possibility. Doing so via RA is perhaps not the best way to do so, but more power to RA for providing punters such an opportunity.

Anyway, I can accept it can be argued some run-off from a sprinkler is possibly a minor public concern. But when do the preventable actions of an organisation that affect the public stop being acceptable and become culpable? I think that’s probably the root of the issue at hand.

Holden Caulfield said :

I’m all for people accepting personal responsibility. However, that should not absolve organisations of accepting their own corporate responsibilities.

Watering in a shady place during a Canberra winter, really? Aside from the fact that it’s probably a waste of water, if ice is as prevalent as everyone is saying and there’s a cycle path nearby is it really that much to ask the NCA to consider the consequence of their actions?

As individuals we’re asked to ensure our domestic watering does not spill onto footpaths and roadways. Probably for different reasons than concern the OP, but the point remains, we all have responsibilities as individuals and organisations.

Sure stick it up the OP if it makes you feel better, but let’s not forget responsibility is a two-way street.

It annoys me to when sprinklers managed by a government organisation – local or federal – spill water all over footpaths or the road. Because of the waste of water, not because “it might form ice and then people might slip on it”. As much as I feel for people getting injured for whatever reason, having grown up in a country where some winter nights you were unable to get home because of freezing rain forming a uniform layer of ice on everything, this topic doese my head in.

I’m all for people accepting personal responsibility. However, that should not absolve organisations of accepting their own corporate responsibilities.

Watering in a shady place during a Canberra winter, really? Aside from the fact that it’s probably a waste of water, if ice is as prevalent as everyone is saying and there’s a cycle path nearby is it really that much to ask the NCA to consider the consequence of their actions?

As individuals we’re asked to ensure our domestic watering does not spill onto footpaths and roadways. Probably for different reasons than concern the OP, but the point remains, we all have responsibilities as individuals and organisations.

Sure stick it up the OP if it makes you feel better, but let’s not forget responsibility is a two-way street.

better get yourself a lawyer son, better get a real good one… Love that song.

CJ said :

To those who expressed sympathy, thank you for your thoughts. To everyone else, if you are not able to assist with the request (i.e. have you, or do you know of anyone else who who may have, reported concerns about the ice/water in this location and any accidents that may have occurred) there is no need to say anything. For what it’s worth: the NCA supervisor who attended admitted that the sprinklers should not have been on; whether or not cycling is inherently dangerous, pedestrians also experienced problems; if a warning or better drainage could have been provided, it should, reasonably, have been IF THE PROBLEM WAS MADE KNOWN TO THE NCA PREVIOUSLY.

Honestly, some people cannot resist gratuitous comment regardless of their stake in an issue. Just don’t. It’s a simple request for information that, really, only needs a response from those able to respond accordingly.

So much comment on this site is pointless, needless, gratuitous. It can be purposeful, helpful, informative.

It’s easy, really. Just remember, not everything requires a comment from everybody.

Well all have a stake in this issue, because it is EVERYONE of us that ends up picking up the bill for things like this. I bet your one of those who complain about how high rates are, how much insurance cost, how many events don’t happen now, well one of the reasons for it is because of the litigious society we live in. Now I asked a question but got now answer, how do you think the NCA could have reasonably prevented your accident, and forget about the sprinkler. Also do you think if for example a car hit black ice on the road that the government should also be responsible for somehow preventing this?

I feel sorry that you had an accident and I hope you recover, but life is full of dangers, ice in winter in Canberra is one of them that cannot reasonably be prevented. I do hope if you take this to court that the judge takes into account the feeling of the general public, guess this board is a perfect example of community feeling.

troll-sniffer said :

JC said :

As for the reason for the ice, are you sure it was from sprinklers, or could it maybe just be moisture that forms overnight running off the grass onto the pathway.

Even if it was from the sprinklers, so what? In Canberra you can wet a path at 9am one day, the water can still be there at the end of the day and with the magic of physics, freeze overnight. I suspect proving anyone’s negligence on this is about as likely as expecting to be protected from getting wet if it’s raining on the way home.

Settle pettal, if you took the time to read all of what I said you would see I was making the exact same point.

Thing is, you talk about suing the NCA as though it is some sort of extra-terrestrial money planet.

Actually, you are suing us, the long suffering taxpayers of this town, because you came a cropper on your bike on ice in winter. While I get that a broken pelvis is a major thing, as a taxpayer I am reluctant to pick up bills for so-called ‘negligence’ every time someone takes a tumble on the ice in winter.

It is quite possible that a sprinkler was left on, or malfunctioned. But, does that mean that the next time a motorist crashes on an icy road in the ACT in winter it is somehow up to me and fellow taxpayers to cough up some ridiculous sum for ‘negligence’ because a drain was overflowing or something?

Your riding a bike in sub zero conditions does not make the rest of us liable for mishaps related to frozen water on the track. If you choose to ride in sub zero conditions, unexpected patches of ice go with the territory.

Fair enough that your medical expenses are covered by workers comp or other means. But, hitting your fellow citizens for additional sums because you chose to ride a bike in icy conditions is way OTT.

CJ said :

if a warning or better drainage could have been provided, it should, reasonably, have been IF THE PROBLEM WAS MADE KNOWN TO THE NCA PREVIOUSLY.

You fail to recognise that your attempts to raid the public purse to cover your ineptitude raise the hackles of those of us still honest enough to take some responsibility for our actions. Your statement as quoted above is as ridiculous as one that I might make along the lines of: “The NCA was asked no less than thirty-three times last year to erect a warning sign in Lake Burly Griffin warning people that they could suffer hypothermia if they entered the water in mid-winter without thermal protection, I decided to go for a swim, saw that there were no warning signs so I assumed it was safe, and nearly died. They owe me for all my current and future medical bills.

I really think that you’re sailing along the edge of the precipice of self-induced idiocy here.

CJ said :

To those who expressed sympathy, thank you for your thoughts. To everyone else, if you are not able to assist with the request (i.e. have you, or do you know of anyone else who who may have, reported concerns about the ice/water in this location and any accidents that may have occurred) there is no need to say anything. For what it’s worth: the NCA supervisor who attended admitted that the sprinklers should not have been on; whether or not cycling is inherently dangerous, pedestrians also experienced problems; if a warning or better drainage could have been provided, it should, reasonably, have been IF THE PROBLEM WAS MADE KNOWN TO THE NCA PREVIOUSLY.

Honestly, some people cannot resist gratuitous comment regardless of their stake in an issue. Just don’t. It’s a simple request for information that, really, only needs a response from those able to respond accordingly.

So much comment on this site is pointless, needless, gratuitous. It can be purposeful, helpful, informative.

It’s easy, really. Just remember, not everything requires a comment from everybody.

Well actually, we ARE entitled to comment. Who do you think will end up paying for your (hoped for) big payout?

“Please note that this is not a ‘cycling’ issue per se and I do not want to see this request get sidetracked in the inevitable debate.”

Well if you don’t like the kinds of responses you normally get from Riotact then don’t post here then.

You could have just as easily have fallen from your bike slipping on ice created from rain, I think complaining about slipping on ice in Canberra is a bit much. If there was a sign there what would it say, “watch out for ice when it is cold and you are riding in the shade”?

So everyone just sat back and watched the carnage? Didn’t think to warn any of the six cyclists of the danger? Its you who should be sued.

Then again, sounds entertaining. I might have to check it out one morning this week.

In the very late 90s or early 2000s a colleague did exactly the same on the ramp exiting Commonwealth Ave bridge on the National Library side. At the time it was quite newly installed. Thankfully my colleague didn’t break their hip, just had major bruising requiring time off work.

I didn’t realise that journeys were not covered in the PS by Workcover, so thanks for the heads-up on that!!

I’m presuming you are using a lawyer based on your query of reported incidents. A similar (not ice related) incident with the NCA resulting in serious injury was resolved with a mediated settlement. It’s pretty hands off, no court appearances – you sit in one room with your lawyer, the NCA sits in another room with their 435345454 QC’s, lawyers traipse back and forward until you accept their offer.

May be worth trying to FOI them too. http://www.nationalcapital.gov.au/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=123&Itemid=133

To those who expressed sympathy, thank you for your thoughts. To everyone else, if you are not able to assist with the request (i.e. have you, or do you know of anyone else who who may have, reported concerns about the ice/water in this location and any accidents that may have occurred) there is no need to say anything. For what it’s worth: the NCA supervisor who attended admitted that the sprinklers should not have been on; whether or not cycling is inherently dangerous, pedestrians also experienced problems; if a warning or better drainage could have been provided, it should, reasonably, have been IF THE PROBLEM WAS MADE KNOWN TO THE NCA PREVIOUSLY.

Honestly, some people cannot resist gratuitous comment regardless of their stake in an issue. Just don’t. It’s a simple request for information that, really, only needs a response from those able to respond accordingly.

So much comment on this site is pointless, needless, gratuitous. It can be purposeful, helpful, informative.

It’s easy, really. Just remember, not everything requires a comment from everybody.

JC said :

As for the reason for the ice, are you sure it was from sprinklers, or could it maybe just be moisture that forms overnight running off the grass onto the pathway.

Even if it was from the sprinklers, so what? In Canberra you can wet a path at 9am one day, the water can still be there at the end of the day and with the magic of physics, freeze overnight. I suspect proving anyone’s negligence on this is about as likely as expecting to be protected from getting wet if it’s raining on the way home.

I knew it – The NCA is responsible for all ice in Canberra. Damn you NCA!

So are you saying that if other reports of ice were reported that you will sue the NCA for negligence? If so, forget about your accident for a second and tell me what the NCA could have possibly done to prevent the build up of ice, considering here in Canberra it gets bloody cold and ice forms. Do you want heated pathways or someone running around clearing the ice?

As for the reason for the ice, are you sure it was from sprinklers, or could it maybe just be moisture that forms overnight running off the grass onto the pathway.

troll-sniffer said :

Typical. You fail to realise that water freezes on cold Canberra winter mornings and, after watching too many airings of A Current Affair ot Today Tonight, seek to blame someone else. The tone of replies also points to a pretty miserable failing in our society where most support you in your quest for atonement.

I wait with bated breath your next attempt to walk under a too-low overpass, cross Northbourne Avenue without looking, or encountering a curve in the bike path covered in gravel or autumn leaves. You would obviously feel it was someone else’s fault if you were injured. Where the hell has the concept of personal responsibility gone?

I was actually thinking this as well. While I feel for the OP with regards to their injuries I really think a sense of responsibility needs to be taken with regards to the incident. Cycling is inherantly dangerous.

Was the water definatly from the sprinklers or from something else? The case for burden of proof would have to be pretty strong.

Will this mean that next time I am at Mt Stromlo & endo over the bars I can sue the government for it?

Typical. You fail to realise that water freezes on cold Canberra winter mornings and, after watching too many airings of A Current Affair ot Today Tonight, seek to blame someone else. The tone of replies also points to a pretty miserable failing in our society where most support you in your quest for atonement.

I wait with bated breath your next attempt to walk under a too-low overpass, cross Northbourne Avenue without looking, or encountering a curve in the bike path covered in gravel or autumn leaves. You would obviously feel it was someone else’s fault if you were injured. Where the hell has the concept of personal responsibility gone?

What about a FOI request asking for correspondence relating to ice in that area?

That sounds nasty CJ, good luck with the recovery and I hope you’re back on your feet soon.

I know the section of path you are talking about, and I noticed the ice on the same morning on my way to training at about 5:45am. I actually dismounted and walked it because it was fairly obviously iced over and it was really slippery indeed. I thought there would be ice there because I noticed that section was quite wet the night before, I guess because of the sprinklers (although I don’t remember if they were on at the time).

I don’t want to sound nasty or anything but I’m curious as to how you didn’t notice the ice, when I passed it there was no mistaking what it was, perhaps it had changed by 7:30? Was this your first winter in Canberra? I guess it’s too late to warn you now but when it gets that cold it is not uncommon for ice to form on paths and roads, sometimes you can see it and sometimes you can’t, you have to be extra cautious.

I can’t help re: the NCA, but best of luck with your recovery. Broken bones are nasty, pelvises especially so. You’re absolutely in the right – if the NCA knew this was an issue and didn’t take adequate steps to prevent the problem or at least warn people, they are liable. End of discussion. Don’t mind the people saying you shouldn’t sue; what you shouldn’t do is get stuck paying for medical bills that are the result of someone else’s negligence (which definitely covers failing to consider the stupidity of dampening Canberra pathways in winter).

There’s often ice along under CW bridge in winter – whether the sprinklers are going or not. Whether its just a combination of shade, cold temp, and the water temperature effect right next to the lake, but sorry you got nailed. I have known its dodgy there on the freezing mornings and just slow down and take it carefully.

If you are employed in the Public Service and a member of the Union, you should have journey cover through the Union. Otherwise journey cover was removed from Compo in the APS a number of years ago.

If this applies, worth checking out.

Hope your recovery is smooth – I am off with a fractured ankle – but can’t blame anyone or thing for my accident apart from myself. Very frustrating to loose your independance though.

If you’re a pedal power member or (I think) CPSU you may be covered for cycling injuries on a work commute.

(Can’t help with the NCA though)

Not sure, but seems like if you record it you might get your costs paid for by Funniest Home Videos.

Coverage depends on who you work for – if you are a Commonwealth/ACT Gov employee (ie under the SRC Act), no you are not covered for injuries incurred on the way to/from work. Best to seek assistance from a specialist compensation lawyer to confirm your coverage re workers comp, and what type of action you can take.

No help to you, I realise, bit I almost had a similar experience about 6 years back when riding around Capital Circle on my motorbike in the bus lane from Commonwealth Ave to Adelaide Ave. Hit a patch of black ice caused by sprinkler run-off and the whole bike slipped a good distance to the side before thankfully grabbing traction again and carrying me on my way a tad shaken but otherwise fine. Didn’t really occur to me at the time to chase it up (probably not least because I escaped any actual problems) – just put it down to a learning experience. If it had ended up worse (as in your case) I might well have thought differently.

Travelling to work you are covered by your employers workers comp. If you are hoping to sue NCA for [mr evil] one million dollars [/mr evil] go fish