30 August 2011

Greens want to buy off prison guards with overseas junkets

30 August 2011 | johnboy

The Greens’ Amanda Bresnan has made a novel proposal to head off objections by prison guards to a needle and syringe program.

delegates of Corrections staff should be given the opportunity to visit and observe prisons in Europe that successfully run needle and syringe programs, in order to better understand what is proposed at the AMC.

“Corrections staff are key stakeholders and it’s important that they are given the chance to talk to their peers who have run similar programs elsewhere,” Ms Bresnan said.

“It is common practise for government to take a delegation to examine services that they are considering implementing or replicating, including if this is overseas. In July 2008, a team funded by ACT Health travelled to the United Kingdom to observe the structure and operations of established Nurse Walk in Centres.

“Corrections staff should be given the opportunity to visit overseas needle and syringe programs, so they are actually seeing how these programs work on the ground.

Why should anyone get their snout out of the taxpayer funded travel trough?

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Tooks7:57 am 02 Sep 11

Grail said :

Tooks said :

And what about families of the inmates? Would they prefer the needle exchange, or perhaps zero tolerance for people smuggling in drugs?

Who the heck do you think is smuggling the drugs and paraphernalia into the gaol in the first place?

Obviously (at least I thought it would be obvious) I’m not talking about family members doing the smuggling. Don’t assume that all crooks have family members who are crooks. Those who care would not want their son, daughter etc taking drugs at all.

Mental Health Worker9:37 pm 01 Sep 11

chewy14 said :

Mental Health Worker said :

Is it appropriate for a mental health worker to be a five post nutbag?

Hey, it’s just a tag. Is GrumpyOld Far really a grumpy old fart? Is Ben_Dover really a serial picker-up of soap in communal showers? Is mac87 really using a 24 year old computer? Is Colourful Sydney Racing Identity really an underworld crime lord? Is wildturkeycanoe really a, well, what IS a wild turkey canoe likely to be? I could go on, and I probably will, but not now…

MHW

Grail7:43 pm 01 Sep 11

Tooks said :

And what about families of the inmates? Would they prefer the needle exchange, or perhaps zero tolerance for people smuggling in drugs?

Who the heck do you think is smuggling the drugs and paraphernalia into the gaol in the first place?

mouthface6:45 pm 01 Sep 11

chewy14 said :

Mental Health Worker said :

Is it appropriate for a mental health worker to be a five post nutbag?

+100

Tooks9:51 am 01 Sep 11

A couple of points (some already mentioned) and as always, I’m happy to be corrected if I’m wrong on any of these:

Around 60% of inmates have Hep C. Most, if not all of them, contracted it on the outside. It’s a fair assumption to say they don’t practice safe needle use even when they have the opportunity to do so.

Has anyone asked the inmates whether they want the needle exchange? What inmate is going to ‘out’ themselves as a drug user and leave themselves open to more scrutiny (knowing their visits will be watched more closely; more frequent ‘random’ searches; their cells probably searched more often; more attention on their associates and visitors etc)?

And what about families of the inmates? Would they prefer the needle exchange, or perhaps zero tolerance for people smuggling in drugs?

I can understand why people support a needle exchange in the jail, but my sympathies lie with the corrections staff who are being asked to allow illegal acts right in front of their noses.

Given many of the inmates are there directly or indirectly due to drugs, wouldn’t it make more sense to make it harder for drugs to get in?

mac879:10 am 01 Sep 11

mac87 said :

Mental Health Worker said :

ImagineThat said :

I don’t understand why we are asking prison officers to effectively condone an illegal act. Surely the ACT government needs supporting legislation to remove any liability from a prison guard who knowingly ‘aids and abets’ a person in this regard.

Assuming the government passes this, then surely the next step is to also provide safe injection rooms for all ACT residents regardless of their curent accommodation situation.

And assuming we make it legal for everyone to safely inject themselves, we should probably also just bit the bullet and make it legal to take whatever drugs you like, when you like, where you like, with whomever you like.

Geez, crisis over…

that was easy!

Great point. We can have an injecting room in a prison but not in the community? Doesn’t make an awful lot of sense.

MHW

Because usually, in a community you havent been convicted or awaiting a trial and the issue of a community injecting room is totally separate. Jail is there for a punishment not for you to easily access the materials required for your next hit.

mac879:07 am 01 Sep 11

Mental Health Worker said :

ImagineThat said :

I don’t understand why we are asking prison officers to effectively condone an illegal act. Surely the ACT government needs supporting legislation to remove any liability from a prison guard who knowingly ‘aids and abets’ a person in this regard.

Assuming the government passes this, then surely the next step is to also provide safe injection rooms for all ACT residents regardless of their curent accommodation situation.

And assuming we make it legal for everyone to safely inject themselves, we should probably also just bit the bullet and make it legal to take whatever drugs you like, when you like, where you like, with whomever you like.

Geez, crisis over…

that was easy!

Great point. We can have an injecting room in a prison but not in the community? Doesn’t make an awful lot of sense.

MHW

Because usually, in a community you havent been convicted or awaiting a trial? Jail is there for a punishment not for you to easily access the materials required for your next hit.

farnarkler10:25 pm 31 Aug 11

A needle and syringe program shouldn’t need to be thought about at the AMC. I have personal experience of how sensitive a drug detector dog’s sense of smell is and anyone carrying drugs is going to get caught if subjected to a drug detector dog sniffing around them. Is there a logical reason why AMC doesn’t have drug detector dogs working there, sniffing around visitors and staff, much like what happens when you arrive at Sydney airport from an international flight???

I simply cannot understand why the government is even mentioning a needle and syringe program when the dogs are available.

chewy1410:06 pm 31 Aug 11

Mental Health Worker said :

Is it appropriate for a mental health worker to be a five post nutbag?

LSWCHP9:44 pm 31 Aug 11

I’m with the “no drugs in jail, no needles in jail” crowd. Stuff ’em.

mouthface5:32 pm 31 Aug 11

Jim Jones said :

mouthface said :

Jim Jones said :

So, it’s your considered opinion that policy should be dictated by prison guards rather than the reams of evidence, or even the actual due process of local government?

What other professions are allowed to make up their own rules, regardless of the decisions of elected officials? Policemen? Teachers? Nurses?

It is my considered opinion that an elected official has the obligation to listen to the views of those who have first hand experience in the sphere in which they are about to impose their misguided policy. It is my considered opinion that policemen, nurses, teachers and others have a far better picture of the real world than an ideologically driven, vandal supporting, drug culture tolerating party like the Greens. It is my considered opinion that a corrections officer giving his view on public radio does not constitute “making your own rules” and is in fact a part of the due process of local government. It is my considered opinion that flying a bunch of people over to Europe is a gross waste of money, and not very “carbon emissions” responsible from a party that likes to take the higher moral ground when it comes to climate change. Please let me ask you this: Is it your considered opinion that an elected official should disregard the opinion of those very people that their misguided policy will affect on a daily basis, in order to uphold their ideology, an ideology that is probably at odds with the views of the greater community and a disaster in the making?

This one is worth having another look at, particularly given that you seem to believe that it constitutes a ‘reasoned argument’.

Doesn’t look much more than ‘RAAA GREENS ARE EVIL RAAA WE’LL BE ROOONED’ to me.

Come on mate, answer one of my questions, give me some sort pf rebuttal, please. Or just shut up, read your own last post and realise you have nothing. I will once again ask you to give me an answer to my original question to you, and yes it was a part of the post you claimed was nothing more than a rant.

Is it your considered opinion that an elected official should disregard the opinion of those very people that their misguided policy will affect on a daily basis, in order to uphold their ideology, an ideology that is probably at odds with the views of the greater community and a disaster in the making?

Anything? Or more blah blah from you?

mouthface1:15 pm 31 Aug 11

Mental Health Worker said :

Mouthface: “It is my considered opinion that a corrections officer giving his view on public radio does not constitute “making your own rules” and is in fact a part of the due process of local government.” This is a direct quote from you in your second post. I repeat “A corrections officer giving his view on public radio.”

But this did not occur, and any ACT government employee speaking out this way would soon be an ex-ACT government employee. This is standard practice for governments (and other employers), but prevents knowledgable opposers and supports of a needle and syringe program having any input except through their unions, or “interpreted” by the Public Health Association of Australia and the Burnet Institite in their government-funded reports.

Playing fast and loose with facts undermines your argument. You may have a valid argument, but you give opposers unnecessary ammunition by using hyperbole and inaccuracies.

Shane Rattenbury’s views on graffiti, or whatever it is you are referring to, are as irrelevant to this debate as, say, Jeremy Hanson’s views on gay marriage, or Katy Gallagher’s views on kangaroo culls.

And using those definitions of group think, all political parties, and probably all himan beings, engage in group think. Using it as a perjorative term further underlines that you are resorting to bluster rather than reasoned argument.

Suggesting there are problems with my mental health really says more about you than me.

And where is this “low security prison” other posters are talking about? The AMC is a maximum security prison – that’s part of the staff’s concerns about allowing needles in. Needles will be put in the hands of some really dangerous people, and under Moore’s preferred model (a supervised injecting room, for which there are very few examples overseas to draw experience from) a worker from a non-government organisation will be responsible for getting it back from them, perhaps just after they’ve injected Ice. I wish them luck in that endeavour, and I hope they get suitable “danger money”.

MHW

MHW, my reference to your mental health was a dig at your name, calm down. Feel free to have a dig at mine, I’ve left myself open.

So the bee in your bonnet is what? That it wasn’t a corrections officer making the statement? Wow, pedantic much? Should I re-phrase it for you? Ok: “It is my considered opinion that a spokesperson for ACT corrections officers giving his view on public radio does not constitute “making your own rules” and is in fact a part of the due process of local government.” Happy now? My original post made it clear that it was “A SPOKESPERSON FOR” corrections officers being interviewed by ABC Radio. Follow the thread please.

In regard to the Shane Rattenbury remark, it was a reference to his public support for a criminal act committed by Greenpeace against CSIRO facilities. It was not irrelevant as it was written to demonstrate that the Greens will always support their particular ideology, even when it comes to public safety or the protection of property, or in this case, the good of the greater community.

And it was “Green groupthink” I was referring to. A particularly inflexible set of values that are based primarily on opposing any view that may be deemed “conservative”. This particular statement is of course a matter of opinion, and it is my opinion, and as it is my post, I feel quite comfortable in expressing it. What else you got? Nothing? Thought so.

mouthface12:52 pm 31 Aug 11

Jim Jones said :

mouthface said :

Jim Jones said :

mouthface said :

… impose their misguided policy … an ideologically driven, vandal supporting, drug culture tolerating party like the Greens … a party that likes to take the higher moral ground when it comes to climate change … their ideology, an ideology that is probably at odds with the views of the greater community and a disaster in the making?

That’s not a considered opinion, that’s Alan Jone’s opinion … or at very least Andrew Bolt’s opinion.

Nice one. Now at least with this latest post of yours you’ve shown your true colours, you brainless, sheep-like ideologue! For your information, I never listen to either of those AM shock jock wankers, but you, oh you, nothing-person with your borrowed world-view. You are not worthy of debating with me after that comment. Your little package marked “What I can support and who I should hate because I’m a Lefty” must have arrived in the mail. Fair-dinkum, you are a lightweight.

Given your comments about the Greens being “an ideologically driven, vandal supporting, drug culture tolerating party”, I’d say it’s pretty clear who the lightweight sheep is here.

Wow, your argument has hit the “I know you are, your said you are, but what am I?” level. You have done nothing to debate my points either than accuse me of “being like Alan Jones and Andrew Bolt” two obvious bogeymen for you. I gave you my “considered opinions” as you asked and you gave me nothing. You have cherry-picked one line in a rather lengthy post of mine to give me a rebuttal? Weak arse response my friend. Are the Greens tolerating drugs? This bill says they are. Are the Greens driven by a particular ideology? This bill says they are. Are the Greens supporters of vandals? Shane Rattenbury’s disgusting support for the Greenpeace criminal attack on CSIRO says they are. Have you given me one counter argument to the points I raised in response to you? No you haven’t. Give up, you’re embarrassing yourself.

Mental Health Worker8:31 am 31 Aug 11

Mouthface: “It is my considered opinion that a corrections officer giving his view on public radio does not constitute “making your own rules” and is in fact a part of the due process of local government.” This is a direct quote from you in your second post. I repeat “A corrections officer giving his view on public radio.”

But this did not occur, and any ACT government employee speaking out this way would soon be an ex-ACT government employee. This is standard practice for governments (and other employers), but prevents knowledgable opposers and supports of a needle and syringe program having any input except through their unions, or “interpreted” by the Public Health Association of Australia and the Burnet Institite in their government-funded reports.

Playing fast and loose with facts undermines your argument. You may have a valid argument, but you give opposers unnecessary ammunition by using hyperbole and inaccuracies.

Shane Rattenbury’s views on graffiti, or whatever it is you are referring to, are as irrelevant to this debate as, say, Jeremy Hanson’s views on gay marriage, or Katy Gallagher’s views on kangaroo culls.

And using those definitions of group think, all political parties, and probably all himan beings, engage in group think. Using it as a perjorative term further underlines that you are resorting to bluster rather than reasoned argument.

Suggesting there are problems with my mental health really says more about you than me.

And where is this “low security prison” other posters are talking about? The AMC is a maximum security prison – that’s part of the staff’s concerns about allowing needles in. Needles will be put in the hands of some really dangerous people, and under Moore’s preferred model (a supervised injecting room, for which there are very few examples overseas to draw experience from) a worker from a non-government organisation will be responsible for getting it back from them, perhaps just after they’ve injected Ice. I wish them luck in that endeavour, and I hope they get suitable “danger money”.

MHW

mouthface12:01 am 31 Aug 11

Grail said :

mouthface said :

It is my considered opinion that an elected official has the obligation to listen to the views of those who have first hand experience in the sphere in which they are about to impose their misguided policy.

Have you listened to the views of those who have first hand experience in waging the war on drugs?

Have you listened to the views of those who have studied drug use in prisons and have come up with mechanisms to reduce the dangers associated with drug use by inmates?

Have you read the Greens statements on the subject?

mouthface said :

It is my considered opinion that policemen, nurses, teachers and others have a far better picture of the real world than an ideologically driven, vandal supporting, drug culture tolerating party like the Greens.

What gives you the idea that the Greens are a “drug culture tolerating” party who smoke pot while sitting around devising policy?

While you’re busy foaming at the mouth and apparently spotting reptoid drug lord conspiracies in every corner, the Greens are busy trying to apply thinking and science to the issues we are faced with.

Here are the facts about drug use in a low security prison: first, whatever process you have in place to screen visitors, they will find some way of smuggling contraband into the facility. Being a low security prison, visitors are allowed contact with the inmates. Some of the contraband smuggled into the facility will be drugs. Providing an amnesty for the prisoners who have acquired drugs to take those drugs under supervision means that the corrective services personnel can be protected from stray needles, while simultaneously having the opportunity to counsel the inmate about their drug habit.

Knowing what drugs the inmate is using – and how often they’re using those drugs – will contribute towards a better outcome for that inmate.

The wardens have concerns about the programme, certainly. The purpose of discussing the programme is to address the wardens concerns. Thus the Michael Moore report, and the proposal to send some of the wardens off to European gaols which have a similar program in place.

Is sending people off to Europe wasteful in terms of fuel? Most certainly. How many lives will have to be saved (by either preventing spread of disease, or encouraging inmates to drop their drug habit) in order to compensate for the emissions of an international flight? Would one life redeemed be enough?

I read the link you supplied to the CT story on this issue. On the side there is a reader poll that confirms my earlier post: That this policy is at odds with the views of the greater community. Do you have anything to say about that, or do you just know better?

Your next comment is an admission that the “low security” system will be defeated by resourceful inmates, and your solution is to give up. How easily you have conceded, you wimp. But here’s an idea, why don’t you concede that not every drug using convict is really just a nice person who needs help? Common sense will tell you that some people are just arseholes who deserve no sympathy. I would bet my house on this: Most people will agree that we should not be accomplices in convict’s drug taking, and that a tougher response to contraband is needed.

And here’s one for you to chew over: Perhaps a less than favourable outcome for a drug addicted convict is a fair price to pay to maintain a standard in society over all. The power of the message may just be more important than the health issues. You may be happy to console yourself with saving a few wretched lives as compensation for an ever increasing decay of societal standards, but the good of the many may far outweigh the good of the few in this case. The notion that a prison guard should knowingly assist an inmate to inject an illegal substance is full admission that the animals have taken over the zoo. The long term implications for society have not been tested and this may ultimately be a Pandora’s Box in regard to how Law and Order officials are perceived by society. It does not make me happy to write this, but it must be considered for the long term good.

PS: I threw the airline emissions thing in there for a bit of fun. Good to see you bite..haha

Grail10:56 pm 30 Aug 11

mouthface said :

It is my considered opinion that an elected official has the obligation to listen to the views of those who have first hand experience in the sphere in which they are about to impose their misguided policy.

Have you listened to the views of those who have first hand experience in waging the war on drugs?

Have you listened to the views of those who have studied drug use in prisons and have come up with mechanisms to reduce the dangers associated with drug use by inmates?

Have you read the Greens statements on the subject?

mouthface said :

It is my considered opinion that policemen, nurses, teachers and others have a far better picture of the real world than an ideologically driven, vandal supporting, drug culture tolerating party like the Greens.

What gives you the idea that the Greens are a “drug culture tolerating” party who smoke pot while sitting around devising policy?

While you’re busy foaming at the mouth and apparently spotting reptoid drug lord conspiracies in every corner, the Greens are busy trying to apply thinking and science to the issues we are faced with.

Here are the facts about drug use in a low security prison: first, whatever process you have in place to screen visitors, they will find some way of smuggling contraband into the facility. Being a low security prison, visitors are allowed contact with the inmates. Some of the contraband smuggled into the facility will be drugs. Providing an amnesty for the prisoners who have acquired drugs to take those drugs under supervision means that the corrective services personnel can be protected from stray needles, while simultaneously having the opportunity to counsel the inmate about their drug habit.

Knowing what drugs the inmate is using – and how often they’re using those drugs – will contribute towards a better outcome for that inmate.

The wardens have concerns about the programme, certainly. The purpose of discussing the programme is to address the wardens concerns. Thus the Michael Moore report, and the proposal to send some of the wardens off to European gaols which have a similar program in place.

Is sending people off to Europe wasteful in terms of fuel? Most certainly. How many lives will have to be saved (by either preventing spread of disease, or encouraging inmates to drop their drug habit) in order to compensate for the emissions of an international flight? Would one life redeemed be enough?

zippyzippy6:42 pm 30 Aug 11

mouthface said :

Jim Jones said :

So, it’s your considered opinion that policy should be dictated by prison guards rather than the reams of evidence, or even the actual due process of local government?

What other professions are allowed to make up their own rules, regardless of the decisions of elected officials? Policemen? Teachers? Nurses?

It is my considered opinion that an elected official has the obligation to listen to the views of those who have first hand experience in the sphere in which they are about to impose their misguided policy. It is my considered opinion that policemen, nurses, teachers and others have a far better picture of the real world than an ideologically driven, vandal supporting, drug culture tolerating party like the Greens. It is my considered opinion that a corrections officer giving his view on public radio does not constitute “making your own rules” and is in fact a part of the due process of local government. It is my considered opinion that flying a bunch of people over to Europe is a gross waste of money, and not very “carbon emissions” responsible from a party that likes to take the higher moral ground when it comes to climate change. Please let me ask you this: Is it your considered opinion that an elected official should disregard the opinion of those very people that their misguided policy will affect on a daily basis, in order to uphold their ideology, an ideology that is probably at odds with the views of the greater community and a disaster in the making?

Maybe a bit of hyperbole there. Needle syringe programs seem to be working well elsewhere, why not here? Are we just a bit backwards?

I also just read the media release which said that the public health association suggested they take someone with them on their visit to an overseas prison operating an NSP. So it’s not a novel idea, and in fact the government denied the opportunity for ACT employees to see an NSP in action.

And this craaa-zy ideology that you hate so much… Do you just mean an ideology that says that we need to care for prisoners’ health?

PBO3:46 pm 30 Aug 11

mouthface said :

If Amanda Bresnan is sincere in her statement that “correction staff are key stakeholders” then why doesn’t she, and the other Green freaks listen to them. They oppose it, pure and simple. Why don’t these people just accept the wisdom of those on the front line and leave their ideological dribble to one side. A spokesperson for the corrections officers at AMC was interviewed on ABC radio yesterday and hopefully Amanda and that other supporter of vandalism and destruction of property were listening. Here are some things he had to say that they can wrap their left leaning heads around: Approximately two thirds of AMC inmates are Hep C positive, and all of them , yes ALL of them, contracted Hep C on the outside. There has not been one single case of an inmate contracting a disease through “needle sharing” at AMC. So why the need? Obviously this is not a problem so why look for a solution? Pure ideology and typical of all extreme green-left groupthink regarding drug use. Probably because they sit around smoking pot when thinking this shit up.
Here’s another beauty. The corrections officers will be expected to escort a prisoner to a shooting gallery, and then wait for them to administer their drug, and then escort them back to the general population. So the corrections officers will have to know the prisoner is carrying an illegal substance on their person when escorting them to the shooting gallery, but be unable to confiscate the illegal substance? Then they will have to sit by and knowingly let a prisoner who is affected by drugs mix with other inmates? Totally ridiculous and unworkable. Please Canberra people, vote these idiots out next election.

I had dinner with an AMC guard the othert week and he appalled at the way the jail is being run. I dont know about being unable to confiscate drugs though, i would confiscate them just before they went in and just leave them with a needle for a few minutes, that should piss them off.

Jim Jones3:44 pm 30 Aug 11

mouthface said :

If Amanda Bresnan is sincere in her statement that “correction staff are key stakeholders” then why doesn’t she, and the other Green freaks listen to them. They oppose it, pure and simple. Why don’t these people just accept the wisdom of those on the front line and leave their ideological dribble to one side. A spokesperson for the corrections officers at AMC was interviewed on ABC radio yesterday and hopefully Amanda and that other supporter of vandalism and destruction of property were listening. Here are some things he had to say that they can wrap their left leaning heads around: Approximately two thirds of AMC inmates are Hep C positive, and all of them , yes ALL of them, contracted Hep C on the outside. There has not been one single case of an inmate contracting a disease through “needle sharing” at AMC. So why the need? Obviously this is not a problem so why look for a solution? Pure ideology and typical of all extreme green-left groupthink regarding drug use. Probably because they sit around smoking pot when thinking this shit up.
Here’s another beauty. The corrections officers will be expected to escort a prisoner to a shooting gallery, and then wait for them to administer their drug, and then escort them back to the general population. So the corrections officers will have to know the prisoner is carrying an illegal substance on their person when escorting them to the shooting gallery, but be unable to confiscate the illegal substance? Then they will have to sit by and knowingly let a prisoner who is affected by drugs mix with other inmates? Totally ridiculous and unworkable. Please Canberra people, vote these idiots out next election.

So, it’s your considered opinion that policy should be dictated by prison guards rather than the reams of evidence, or even the actual due process of local government?

What other professions are allowed to make up their own rules, regardless of the decisions of elected officials? Policemen? Teachers? Nurses?

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