ANU combining Masters with Bachelor degrees for "vertical" double degrees

poetix said :

HHR said :

“Master%u2019s degrees are as useless as tits on a bull. Either go the whole hog and get a PhD, or get out in the real world and get actual experience.” You cannot “go the whole hog and get a PhD” without further postgraduate studies under your belt, so, you actually need to get your Masters in order to continue. ….

This is simply incorrect. I only had two Bachelor degrees before I was accepted into an ANU PhD, and only one was relevant to the application process.

I hate the way academia now speaks in terms of career and ‘setting people up for life’, not about knowledge or discovery. Masters degrees, it seems, are the new century’s CIT qualification.

“Getting in
To be eligible for consideration of admission to a research degree at ANU, you must already have an Australian bachelor degree with at least upper second-class honours, or equivalent, or a graduate diploma or master degree with a significant research thesis component, and there must be a supervisor or convener at ANU available to supervise your research.”

http://info.anu.edu.au/studyat/grad_research

Honours or Masters (or at some universities, X amount of experience in a relevant field), you still need to prove to the university that you have a certain level of knowledge and research experience. As an alternative entry student, I’m aware that entry is based upon more than just your academic grade. I was just trying to highlight that the various degrees have different requirements and expected outcomes. I’m sure there are plenty of people out there who can “skip a grade”, but for the rest of us we have to complete Year 6 before we can go to high school.

And just to comment on your last point, I did my Masters for the learning experience. Linguistics is not at all “relevant” to my career, at this point, and I’m not sure it ever will be, but I love learning about language, and didn’t feel satisfied after completing my BA.

NoAddedMSG said :

c_c said :

Also worth noting that the ANU allows HDs to kick in from 80% while most other Universities set the threshold at 85%, so arguments about devaluing degrees and assessing different qualifications are already difficult, and at ANU, have already been cheapened by these existing measures.

I go through a lot of academic transcripts every semester (550 ish usually) so I can tell you that students who transfer to ANU usually go down a grade band – ANU marks much harder. Kicking an HD in at 80% doesn’t devalue the degree at all.

What does create issues is an utterly daft grading system which even the students don’t understand – HD, D, CR, P, N, NCN, CRS, PS, WD, WN, WL, and then you get in the things like KU, RP, IP, and DA. It is a very good way of making sure no one outside the system can understand transcripts – I still don’t get what is wrong with an A – E scale.

The grading definitions are for the most part very logical. There’s a rubric out there to explain it to you.
As for grading, there is by the lecturers own admission, no harsh grading. You can see it plainly. If all you see is transcripts, not the actual work, then you’re not in a position to say.

An A-E grade would be a terrible thing, both because it is artificial, and because people have a very clear preconception about what the letters mean.

P is a pass, they meet the standard to pass the course.
With each subsequent, grade, it refers to the higher the level of theoretical and analytical work.

Simple.

As for compressing degrees, word has come through this week that the ANU is planning to shorten standard semesters by a week.

This is happening all over, degree-creep is upon us. And yes, it sees a devaluation of those things it creeps over. Great for the unis though, they can make more money. Notice that one aussie uni has started offering MDs (masters in medicine). It’s about time that TEQSA took a close interest.

c_c said :

Why all the negativity?

It may be a theme. There have been eatlier issues with academic statuses round here:

http://the-riotact.com/assistant-professors-without-phds/70334

HHR said :

“Master%u2019s degrees are as useless as tits on a bull. Either go the whole hog and get a PhD, or get out in the real world and get actual experience.” You cannot “go the whole hog and get a PhD” without further postgraduate studies under your belt, so, you actually need to get your Masters in order to continue. ….

This is simply incorrect. I only had two Bachelor degrees before I was accepted into an ANU PhD, and only one was relevant to the application process.

I hate the way academia now speaks in terms of career and ‘setting people up for life’, not about knowledge or discovery. Masters degrees, it seems, are the new century’s CIT qualification.

This is no biggy. At all.

It may come off as a strange explaination of a restructure, but the degree structure is not uncommon – in other nations at least.

Worry when we give honorary doctorates to sporting captains. Like Richie McCaw for example.

c_c said :

Also worth noting that the ANU allows HDs to kick in from 80% while most other Universities set the threshold at 85%, so arguments about devaluing degrees and assessing different qualifications are already difficult, and at ANU, have already been cheapened by these existing measures.

I go through a lot of academic transcripts every semester (550 ish usually) so I can tell you that students who transfer to ANU usually go down a grade band – ANU marks much harder. Kicking an HD in at 80% doesn’t devalue the degree at all.

What does create issues is an utterly daft grading system which even the students don’t understand – HD, D, CR, P, N, NCN, CRS, PS, WD, WN, WL, and then you get in the things like KU, RP, IP, and DA. It is a very good way of making sure no one outside the system can understand transcripts – I still don’t get what is wrong with an A – E scale.

c_c said :

Also worth noting that the ANU allows HDs to kick in from 80% while most other Universities set the threshold at 85%, so arguments about devaluing degrees and assessing different qualifications are already difficult, and at ANU, have already been cheapened by these existing measures.

ANU also marks harder, particularly in law. It all goes out the window with scaling anyway.

Having just completed recently, both a Bachelor degree (ANU) and a Masters degree (Monash), I think this is a great idea.

“Frankly I find it hard to believe that “depth”, “breadth”, and “height” can all be added during the same duration of studies.” Did you even read your own links before posting this? They can shave six months off the total study time, as in a standard Bachelor degree + a Masters degree, which equals 3 years + 1-2 years. So, instead of completing your studies in 4-5 years, you will be done in 3 1/2 to 4 1/2 years. The time shaved off comes from the Bachelor side of the double degree, and if any of you have completed a Bachelor degree, you will know that with all the electives you can take on top of your chosen majors, there is no depth lost in shaving a few of those electives off.

My hope is that this will also allow students to bypass some the introductory courses for their Masters. Having just completed a major in Linguistics at ANU, I found it a complete waste of my time and money (no CSP for my Masters) to have to complete the Introduction to Linguistics course as part of my Monash degree. I think that type of course suits students who a) have never studied that field before, or b) have not studied at all recently, and I hope that the ANU vertical degree takes this into consideration.

“Master’s degrees are as useless as tits on a bull. Either go the whole hog and get a PhD, or get out in the real world and get actual experience.” You cannot “go the whole hog and get a PhD” without further postgraduate studies under your belt, so, you actually need to get your Masters in order to continue. It’s not just about paying fees at university, but also about the learning process. In your Bachelor degree you write 2500 word essays. In a Masters you write a longer thesis of around 60,000 if you’re doing research, or 5,000 word essays if you’re doing coursework. For a PhD you are writing a thesis of up to 100,000 words. You can’t simply jump from 2500 word essays to a 100,000 word thesis. You also need to develop your research and analytical skills, which clearly, you have not.

“I was going to suggest, provided the “masters” level subjects were only offered to students with a certain level of attainment in their undergrad subjects, this could be ok. Then I realised that this is honours.” Honours is not as widely recognised worldwide as a Masters degree is, so it makes a lot more sense, if you want to be able to move around, to do a Masters degree. I am sure that ANU will have requirements for continuing on to do Masters, giving students who didn’t achieve the required grades the option to complete their standard Bachelor degree in their last semester.

“For one thing, this deflates the value of the existing masters degrees in the economy. Kind of like printing money.” How exactly does it deflate the value of an existing Masters degree, given that it will still be a Masters degree from ANU? You are simply finishing your Bachelors earlier, and starting your Masters where you would normally be doing your final semester of your Bachelors. I also don’t think it will devalue the Bachelors degree you attain by such a process, as I imagine that instead of doing X amount of electives along with your chosen majors/minors, you will be doing fewer electives, which will not affect your depth of knowledge. You still graduate at the end with two pieces of paper: one that says Bachelor and one that says Masters. I don’t see how any employer can be confused by that.

I think all forms of learning should be encouraged, and a vertical double degree like this simply allows those students who have a goal in mind to focus on that goal and tailor their studies to achieve it quickly and efficiently, and to be able to enter the workforce earlier and with less debt.

c_c said :

devils_advocate said :

c_c said :

Why all the negativity?

Do I detect a bit of toll poppy creeping in, perhaps a bit scared newer graduates with better looking degrees will overtake you and, as research shows, earn more?

For one thing, this deflates the value of the existing masters degrees in the economy. Kind of like printing money.

Another problem is, that as an employer or someone who is tasked with making employment decisions, it now becomes one more complication in assessing the qualifications of graduates or candidates in general.

Given that there are at least 5 different ways to calculate GPA among Australian Universities (and ANU doesn’t do GPA to further complicate things), along with several different ways to calculate Honours scale among the Universities – it’s never going to be easy for employers.

Also worth noting that the ANU allows HDs to kick in from 80% while most other Universities set the threshold at 85%, so arguments about devaluing degrees and assessing different qualifications are already difficult, and at ANU, have already been cheapened by these existing measures.

All true – so why add a further complication?