Audit report questions costs and benefits of Light Rail Stage 2A

Ian Bushnell 27 September 2021 121
Light rail tram

ACT Auditor-General Michael Harris has raised doubts about the economics of extending light rail from Alinga Street to Commonwealth Park. Photo: File.

The cost of the next stage of light rail to Commonwealth Park may have been be underestimated and the project’s economic benefits overstated, according to a new audit report.

ACT Auditor-General Michael Harris also says in the report, ‘Canberra Light Rail Stage 2A: Economic Analysis’, that the demand for public transport may not be the same in the future due to the COVID-19 pandemic changing the way people work, with many to continue working remotely.

The audit found that a significant amount of the $150 million in benefits identified for Light Rail Stage 2A are predicated on the project being a catalyst for the development of the Acton Waterfront, but that neither the Stage 2A Business Case or Economic Appraisal Report provides information or evidence on how it will actually do this.

“Should the Acton Waterfront not be developed as fast as is hoped, then the timing and quantification of the expected benefits of Light Rail Stage 2A are at risk,” said Mr Harris.

The audit also found the economic appraisal was dependent on a series of ‘transformational projects’ and revitalisation activities such as the raising of London Circuit; National Capital Authority (NCA) plans to transform Commonwealth Avenue and Kings Avenue into grand boulevards, and the development of Section 100, next to the ACT Law Courts.

Mr Harris said any failure to implement these projects on a timely basis would have a negative impact on the expected benefits of Light Rail Stage 2A.

The audit found the estimated $162 million cost of the project did not take into account the requirement for wire-free running and retrofitting light rail vehicles.

Artist's impression of the intersection of London Circuit and Commonwealth Avenue on the Light Rail Stage 2A

An artist’s impression of the intersection of London Circuit and Commonwealth Avenue on the Light Rail Stage 2A route to Commonwealth Park. Image: ACT Government.

The cost of retrofitting was estimated to be about 17 per cent of the estimated capital cost.

“At the time of the preparation of the Stage 2A Business Case, there was a very strong likelihood that wire-free technology would be required for any extensions towards and through the Parliamentary Zone, but this cost, and other costs associated with urban design finishes, were not explicitly included in the capital cost estimate for Light Rail Stage 2A,” said the report.

The audit said the cost of disruption to businesses along the 1.7km route had also not been taken into account.

The audit recommends that Major Projects Canberra should review and update the economic analysis, including its assumptions and costs and benefits.

This should be made publicly available.

The audit also recommends the ACT Chief Minister, Treasury and Economic Development Directorate work with Major Projects Canberra and the Transport Canberra and City Services Directorate to develop a Benefits Realisation Plan for Light Rail Stage 2A.

An ACT Government spokesperson said the government would be considering the report’s findings closely.

“The report focuses on Stage 2A of Light Rail,” said the spokesperson. “While the Stage 2A extension provides some benefits, the ACT Government’s intention is to maximise the benefits for the city in extending the line from Gungahlin to Woden.

“Stage 2 of Light Rail will be Canberra’s biggest ever infrastructure project, delivering major long-term benefits. We recognise the importance of delivering this project in a way that realises economic, environmental and social benefits for the Canberra community.”

Public Transport Association of Canberra chair Ryan Hemsley said the report highlighted the importance of delivering the full extension of the network, rather than stopping short at Commonwealth Park.

Mr Hemsley said there are concerns the overall project is falling behind schedule with a Works Approval yet to be submitted to the NCA, and the 9km extension to Woden still without a planned opening date.

Last week, the ACT Government announced of early works to relocate utilities and an expression-of-interest process for the raising of London Circuit.

“While last week’s announcements are welcome, a handful of utility relocations and an expression of interest for enabling works does not a project make,” said Mr Hemsley.

He said there was a widening gulf between the ACT Government’s election promises and the actual delivery of infrastructure.

“It may be time to consider whether a dedicated light rail planning and delivery entity, such as the former Capital Metro Agency, can cut through some of the delays and streamline the process for future stages to Belconnen, Tuggeranong, Molonglo, Fyshwick and the airport,” said Mr Hemsley.

He is concerned the delays also risk adding unnecessary costs to the project.

“The longer this stretches out, the harder it will be to secure the necessary construction expertise, which is presently in very high demand across the country,” said Mr Hemsley.

“Canberrans cannot afford to wait until the late 2020s for this much needed public transport infrastructure to be completed.”

The ACT Government has promised that first tracks for Stage 2A will be laid in 2024.

Stage 2B to Woden still has multiple approval hurdles to clear.

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121 Responses to Audit report questions costs and benefits of Light Rail Stage 2A
Acton Acton 10:06 pm 01 Oct 21

“A significant amount of the benefits identified for Light Rail Stage 2a are predicated on the project being a catalyst for the acceleration of development of the Acton Waterfront. Neither the Stage 2a Business Case or Economic Appraisal Report provides information or evidence on how Light Rail Stage 2a is expected to accelerate development at the site.”

Translation: Dodgy figures were used to justify the project based on wishful thinking.

“Major Projects Canberra and the Chief Minister, Treasury and Economic Development Directorate (ACT Treasury) were also asked to provide comments for inclusion in the final report in the Summary chapter. No comments were provided for inclusion in this Summary chapter.”

Translation: The ACT Government will ignore this audit report and will treat the Audit Office with the same degree of contempt it treats all other residents.

Conclusion: When you have a Greens run Labor government you get Greens/Labor arrogance, corruption, waste and mismanagement.

    astro2 astro2 6:37 am 02 Oct 21

    Hmmm…yes…and a Triple AAA credit rating too.

    astro2 astro2 2:59 pm 02 Oct 21

    Lehman Bros are a company, not government, different ratings system. No one in their right mind is suggesting that the ACT economy is not in a strong position, it’s just disappointing to the can the tram chicken littles who ran around crying about the sky falling in if light rail was introduced and now that it has been introduced….and the sky didn’t fall down, they’re left without a leg to stand on. The rest of us have just moved on.

    Capital Retro Capital Retro 9:58 pm 02 Oct 21

    How can the ACT government not be in a strong position and still have a AAA credit rating, astro2? If you claim some sort of expertise in these matters let’s hear the full story.

    And while I accept that you are a passionate supporter of the Right Fail and an apologist for the government the fact that you rely solely on a fairy tale as an analogy to attack detractors doesn’t leave you with much credibility.

    astro2 astro2 11:52 am 03 Oct 21

    Simply saying the ACT government can afford to commit to major infrastructure projects, which it has done. (Also with buy-in from the Federal Government). That’s not being “an apologist” for anything, just accepting reality here. Also not sure where the “attacking detractors” idea comes from, obviously you’re perennially upset by the idea of light rail. At some stage, I would think we all need to accept reality don’t we.

    JC JC 5:50 pm 03 Oct 21

    Astro if it was a road being built for the same cost not be a word would be heard.

    People just like to whinge about anything new and different. Look at the negative comments on other new sites about the electric hybrid fire truck the ACT is buying.

    Never mind that hybrid heavy vehicles mostly bus have been in use elsewhere around the world for a good 15+ years.

    chewy14 chewy14 11:17 pm 03 Oct 21

    That’s such a ridiculously incorrect statement.

    If the government was proposing on spending a few billion dollars on a road project that had a woeful cost benefit ratio, the intelligent people opposed to light rail would have the same position.

    Exactly like if the Light Rail had a cost benefit ratio of over 2.5 like the Majura Parkway, those people wouldn’t complain either.

    Capital Retro Capital Retro 2:16 pm 02 Oct 21

    A Triple AAA credit rating is actually an AAAAAAAAA one.

Bryce Shoshore Bryce Shoshore 9:44 am 01 Oct 21

This is an investment into the future at the rate Canberra's growing.20-30years from now it will cost a lot more than it does and it will be an afterthought at the rate that Canberra is expanding. Parking prices are likely to go up in the city and a lot of people will be forced to use Public transport.

    Russ Morison Russ Morison 4:02 pm 02 Oct 21

    Bryce, I have to ask, as you are talking transport patronage here, if people wanted to use PT they would but they won't. What is missing and I'll give you a guess-it's not light rail.

    Bryce Shoshore Bryce Shoshore 4:03 pm 02 Oct 21

    Russ Morison mindset and convenience

Trevor Mobbs Trevor Mobbs 9:03 am 01 Oct 21

Remember how we were constantly told stage 1 wouldn't add up because the passenger numbers wouldn't be as high as projected, and then... the passenger numbers were way, way HIGHER than projected?

I do remember. It seems a lot of people here have desperately short memories, though. And I say this as a person on the southside who has never actually caught the light rail, but the figures showed that people did want to use it.

    Jeff Smith Jeff Smith 12:34 pm 01 Oct 21

    It's worth noting that Light Rail use was consistently declining after those first high usage weeks. That's why we stopped hearing the stats from the Transport Minister. Even before Covid hit, the light rail numbers had dropped below estimated projections.

    Ashley Wright Ashley Wright 12:56 pm 01 Oct 21

    Jeff Smith bulldust. Patronage continued to increase, to the extent they had to put on extra peak hour services by changing frequency from every 6 to very 5 minutes.

    At the begining of covid passenger numbers were already 3 years above original projections and that is without the extra buildings along the route and the Well Station Drive park and ride.

    Jeff Smith Jeff Smith 2:31 pm 01 Oct 21

    Ashley Wright I'm going off what a data expert told me and looking at the ACT Data Portal for light rail journeys per month backs this up.

    Colin Vivian Colin Vivian 2:31 pm 01 Oct 21

    Trevor Mobbs the ACT Govt has contracted to pay a set amount for 20 years regardless of patronage. So all your really arguing is the loss is marginally smaller than it would have been. Doesn’t make a positive cost/benefit.

    Ashley Wright Ashley Wright 3:00 pm 01 Oct 21

    Jeff Smith it says no such thing. The drop you see is the usual December/January school holiday drop then Feb back to normal followed by March which was the start of COVID.

    You don’t need to be a data expert to see that just some common sense.

    And all those figures were still well ahead of projections by a number of years which is why they added extra services.

    Jeff Smith Jeff Smith 3:46 pm 01 Oct 21

    Ashley Wright What data are you seeing? Use was higher in August 2019 than it was in 'every single month' that follows that point. That's declining use in anyone's book. Also Light Rail usage numbers continue to be well below projections.

    Ashley Wright Ashley Wright 3:52 pm 01 Oct 21

    Jeff Smith the data you posted!

    You cannot cherry pick specific months and make a broad reaching statement usage was declining. Any data expert or anyone with half a brain could see in the data you posted that august, September, October and November usage was more or less static with minor ups and downs which is insignificant to signal a trend of declining usage. December and January as I said would indicate school holidays and I am sure would match car usage and bus usage and match previous years. And bounce back in Feb and after that the impact of covid.

    So your data does not match your statement simple as that.

    Colin Vivian Colin Vivian 4:25 pm 01 Oct 21

    Ashley Wright no I’m pointing out to Trevor and yourself that a claim of increased patronage whether true or not is moot if the contractor is paid the same regardless. The Tram’s still running at a huge loss no matter what the patronage numbers are.

    Ashley Wright Ashley Wright 4:33 pm 01 Oct 21

    Colin Vivian define loss? Farebox loss yes, but what public transport system anywhere in the world doesn’t make a loss?

    Also do best in mind whilst contractor is paid a fixed amount they don’t collect fares. So any rise in patronage means higher fares which go to the government

    Colin Vivian Colin Vivian 5:28 pm 01 Oct 21

    Ashley Wright what I said, so it just lessens the loss.

    For comparison: the bus network had 17.9million trips and an annual budget of $103m. That’s a subsidy of $5.73 per trip.

    According to CMD light rail had 4.2million boardings and they paid Capital Metro $65m. $15 per trip!!! Even if you deduct an average fare of $2 that’s still more than double the price of the bus network. Since it’s on a major trunk route and doesn’t include any of the feeder network, the true cost per journey compared to buses is probably closer to 4 times. Extremely poor value in my books.

    The ACT Budget deficit is already over $5000 for every man women & child (pre Covid). Do you really think adding another few billion is a good idea?

    Ashley Wright Ashley Wright 5:33 pm 01 Oct 21

    Colin Vivian cost of bus vs light rail is not comparable. Action costs are just the cost of running the service. It does not include the code of buses, infrastructure and road maintenance. Light rail is a finance, built, operate, transfer contract so of course will be higher. Just as bus would be if the true cost were included.

    Oh and your $5000 per person, spread over 20 years mind you does not factor in non transport benifit and revenue which is generated. Land sales, rates etc.

    Not saying it would be cheaper but just saying the cost isn’t as bad as it seems. Something lost on most.

    Colin Vivian Colin Vivian 5:40 pm 01 Oct 21

    That may make up half the cost difference but it’s still poor value. The ACT Government has no transparency over its LR contracts so a like for like comparison is not possible.

    If there truly was a benefit to the Government through revenue generated how come the budget deficit is rising by billions every year (pre-Covid so that’s not an excuse)? There probably is a net benefit to a few selected developers but ACT rate payers will never see it.

    Russ Morison Russ Morison 4:04 pm 02 Oct 21

    I just asked Bryce and I'll ask you-why will people not use public transport?

Ray Mcgee Ray Mcgee 2:59 pm 30 Sep 21

They’re only now questioning it?! 😂

Linda Fitt Linda Fitt 8:40 pm 29 Sep 21

You decide to question it now? 🤔

bj_ACT bj_ACT 5:15 pm 29 Sep 21

Most cities of the world see public transport use driven by a mix of economic, reliability, accessibility, demographic, lack of car ownership and journey travel time factors.

In Canberra however, ‘Travel Time’ has consistently trumped the other factors in public transport use for Canberrans. Many of our behaviours are often different to other cities.

When journey time gets slower, Canberrans are more likely to use a car (as most people can afford this). We recently saw this effect after the 2019 network changes. More bus/rail use in faster journey areas like Gungahlin, Inner North and Weston Creek. BUT, Reduced bus use in Tuggeranong, Woden and Belconnen.

Replacing a fast transit lane bus service with a slower light rail service is the exact opposite of what time poor Canberra commuters want.

It’s like trying to fur jackets in Darwin. You’re not giving people what they want.

    chewy14 chewy14 7:14 pm 29 Sep 21

    Get out the champagne again, I 100% agree.

    As I’ve said elsewhere, building this project now is a solution looking for a problem.

    bj_ACT bj_ACT 10:24 pm 29 Sep 21

    Crazy times Chewy. Too much agreement between us.

    I think it would be good for Canberra to revisit the proposal for stage 2. A full and honest assessment by balanced experts.

    ACT Government continually choose consultancies by companies that already hold predefined opinions.

    If a Belco Light Rail route legitimately stacks up with a high return on investment, ‘then go for it’.

    But independent transport experts ‘keep’ highlighting that Canberra’s Spatial geography suits dedicated bus rapid lanes, with bus connections and park and rides spreading into the suburbs.

    A 10 billion dollar investment into a Canberra wide light rail system should be made by experts not by voters, who have little credible alternative options.

    chewy14 chewy14 8:08 am 30 Sep 21

    Yes the decision making has clearly been too clouded by the politics.

    As you say, if a solid business case can be put together, let’s go for it. But currently, no such thing exists and based in the evidence available, it’s not viable.

    JS9 JS9 9:19 am 30 Sep 21

    The only alternate to a rapid bus network in reality for a city like Canberra (Given its size, geography and layout) that could make the travel time elements stack up would be an underground – but for obvious reasons that is really not a viable option (If you think they can make the tram expensive, imagine what that would cost in this town).

    JC JC 8:52 pm 29 Sep 21

    Economic is a major factor. If car use was charged more appropriately public transport use would go up. By appropriately I mean paying true cost of building and maintaining roads, carparks and impact on environment.

    chewy14 chewy14 9:44 pm 29 Sep 21

    You seem to be suggesting some sort of user or beneficiary pays system that matches the true costs to the benefits of providing such infrastructure.

    I would fully agree with that but it would seem strange to then not apply the same to light rail, particularly when cheaper options for the same level of service are available.

    I’m glad you’re finally getting on board.

    Capital Retro Capital Retro 4:03 pm 01 Oct 21

    “Lack of car ownership” in a lot of cities in Europe where trams are the only mode of public transport reflects the fact that there is a “lack of anywhere to park a car” because the cities are 100 of years old, densely populated and there was no planning for the future.

    Visitors from these European cities can’t believe how lucky we are in Canberra because we can house our private cars at our homes. I explain them to them that it is because Canberra was designed around the private motor car as the main means of transport.

    It worked very well until this current government came to power and we all know how much they like to mimic the “Euro vibe”. Now they are retro-designing Canberra to be just like European cities with trams, densification and nowhere to park cars.

    It’s a case of going regressive to become progressive.

    astro2 astro2 6:42 am 02 Oct 21

    Rather than the “Los Angeles vibe” with congested motorways. I think Canberrans have made their choice on this one in the last two elections so let’s just proceed as planned with a clean quiet multi-modal transport system.

    chewy14 chewy14 10:44 am 02 Oct 21

    Ah, Astro,
    You’ve unsurprisingly been missing the last few days.

    But no, we haven’t voted on any such thing.

    An election isn’t a suicide pact and when the evidence clearly shows that this isn’t viable, we don’t all have to jump off the cliff behind those spouting meaningless cliches.

    A good government would recognise their mistakes and change their position to reflect the current reality rather than doubling down because they don’t want to deal with the political fallout.

    astro2 astro2 3:05 pm 02 Oct 21

    Gosh, that’s a very emotional post there mate. I think by “we” didn’t vote on any such thing you mean “you” didn’t but that’s already known. Nobody’s jumping off a cliff here, it’s a major infrastructure project, it’s what governments do. Just because it doesn’t suit you personally, doesn’t mean that it won’t go ahead. And BTW, a handful of hardcore ‘can the trammers’ on RiotACT isn’t political fallout to speak of. As previously noted – time to move on.

    chewy14 chewy14 5:53 pm 02 Oct 21

    No emotion there, I think you’re mistaking the facts I’ve presented because once again you have no response.

    And it’s honestly laughable that you suggest people “move on” when the government is proposing to waste a few billion dollars on the next stage of light rail, whilst it’s fiscal position is nowhere near as rosy as you’re suggesting.

    But of course you don’t care about the government wasting taxpayers money as you’ve made abundantly clear. As long as you personally support a project, no amount of expenditure is unjustified.

    Oh and while you’re here, did you see Victoria had 1488 Covid cases today. Exponential growth hey, it can really make fools of people who don’t understand data, but we already knew that.

    Capital Retro Capital Retro 11:14 am 02 Oct 21


    bj_ACT bj_ACT 1:19 pm 02 Oct 21

    It’s interesting that the vast majority of people in the new apartments in Civic still own and drive a car.

    There was a stat that showed a higher proportion of car ownership in areas of the inner north than in areas of Canberra’s outer suburbs.

    I’ve seen Rattenbury many times in his car but only once on his bike.

Anne Gallagher Anne Gallagher 10:12 am 29 Sep 21

Just don’t build it. The money is desperately needed for a very run down Canberra

    Paul Hinchy Paul Hinchy 7:18 pm 29 Sep 21

    Anne Gallagher Our City is going downhill fast. No Police , our roads are horrendous and our Hospitals are so short on materials and equipment .

    Ray Mcgee Ray Mcgee 2:59 pm 30 Sep 21

    No point of a flashy tram if everything else is looking horrendous.

Dennis Smith Dennis Smith 9:08 am 29 Sep 21

The tram looks good and is useful for a small number of people but is completely unsustainable in Canberra. But we have a dictatorship like Labor Government in Canberra and its jobs for the boys

jms253 jms253 9:03 pm 28 Sep 21

Wait, people are only now starting to realise the tram is slower than the bus routes and a waste of money and it would have been better spent on improving roads, buying new busses and improving infrastructure like dedicated bus lanes and new shelters? I’m sorry, but how does it make any sense to terminate the R4/5 in Woden, only to force you onto a tram which will be 33% slower than the current bus network? Not to mention the traffic delays it will cause in the city and Woden while under construction and also the removal of one of the main thoroughfares through Woden – Callum St . Oh but wait, it’s a small price to pay for the “benefits” as a result of the tram. Mr Barr needs to stop trying to make the ACT a mini Sydney and focus more on what Canberra ACTUALLY needs, like improved road maintenance, a new hospital, better education funding, etc. Never mind, my fellow “Ken Behrens” just keep voting in the short bald guy anyway. It’s even better now that we have the Greens in the mix too!

HiddenDragon HiddenDragon 7:50 pm 28 Sep 21

A government which is doubtless revving itself up to hit the Canberra public with a barrage of spin about “building back better” should take the message of this report (particularly the implicit message about the opportunity costs of light rail extensions) to heart and divert spending to areas of genuine and pressing need and away from this nice to have (for some) obsession.

Tim Stevenson Tim Stevenson 6:17 pm 28 Sep 21

I doubt the Labor Greens government are going to start bothering with a cost benefit analysis now all of a sudden.

Michael A Avis Michael A Avis 6:07 pm 28 Sep 21

It doesn’t matter what the people of Canberra say the Corporate Local Government will build it anyway.

Trevor Senton Trevor Senton 4:00 pm 28 Sep 21

Scrap it ,the sooner the better , and put a decent bus service around town presently it is under utilised with the improper timetables and irregular services.but fix the large problems with ROAD'S and general maintenance.ASAP

Joe McDowell Joe McDowell 3:04 pm 28 Sep 21

Just scrap it

Tom Worthington Tom Worthington 2:59 pm 28 Sep 21

A trackless tram would be a better, cheaper option from Civic to Woden, and could be built sooner. It would not need track to be laid, or overhead wires installed, just a dedicated lane painted on the road. Commonwealth Avenue bridge could be used, without the need for extensive (and expensive) engineering work.

In 2015 I traveled the world’s longest guided busway, in Cambridge, England. Like one in Adelaide, this uses concrete tracks, which a modified buses travels along without the driver having to steer. But technology has moved on, and a special track is no longer needed. A bus can follow a line painted on the road. The vehicle can be built larger, and more comfortable, looking like a tram. It can draw power at the stops, to be stored in a battery.

Ian Ian 12:57 pm 28 Sep 21

Seems stupid to me to be building this section when the government doesn’t have all the approvals lined up for getting over the lake and through the parliamentary zone. Will look really dumb if the Commonwealth sticks to its guns and refuses, or puts impossible conditions on it (eg must be underground). It’s obvious that stage 2A exists essentially to pressure the Commonwealth into approving 2B.

    JC JC 1:06 pm 28 Sep 21

    The main issues have been sorted for the rest of stage 2 with conditions imposed and agreed to.

    Feds also putting money into 2A.

tfx1 tfx1 12:25 pm 28 Sep 21

An outsider perspective. How is it that a spread out city like Brisbane can manage to operate an effective bus network unlike Canberra. I have 2 simple observations of differences between the cities. Firstly Brisbane has some extensive dedicated busways which have been basically add-ons to existing infrastructure. As an example the south-eastern busway is an add-on to the south-eastern motorway and winds underneath and either side with entry and exit points roughly every kilometre. The buses move a lot of people very quickly. Another example of their use of busways is they have a lot of little ones so that at traffic intersection hotspots there will be a little busway which ensures that buses get through on one change of lights whereas cars in peak hours might take 2 or 3 changes. Another point is the unions are much more supportive of allowing weekend work than in Canberra. The simple solution is subcontract it to Brisbane City Council.

Bernie Rodwell Bernie Rodwell 12:04 pm 28 Sep 21

Considering the Greens are running things, no surprise

thoughtsonthesubject thoughtsonthesubject 11:51 am 28 Sep 21

The Auditor-General’s report high-lights just one aspect of the problems of the light rail for Canberra, namely the financial ones. There are many others. For instance the trip between Woden and Civic with 11 stops in between is estimated to take 30 minutes while the express R4 bus takes 15 minutes off-peak, 16 minutes during rush hour. To “persuade” people to take the tram, R4 will become a local service between Lanyon and Woden. The doubling of commuting time becomes even more serious for people in Tuggeranong whose place of work happens to be in Civic. Of course there is an alternative to the light rail, namely the new electric buses Transport Canberra is procuring which have all the comforts of the tram including lowering their carriages to the level of the platform at stops. For routes with heavy passenger demand during rush-hour, the new bi-articulated electric buses with a capacity of up to 180 passengers which Brisbane is ordering would do the trick. They even look like the light rail, but don’t need the infrastructure of the latter and hence are flexible regarding routes. After the financial debacle of the new light rail, Sydney too is ordering 8.000 electric buses.

    astro2 astro2 12:38 pm 28 Sep 21

    Fact check 1 : Trip between Woden and Civic via light rail with additional stops to the current R4 is estimated to take between 25 to 30 minutes, not 30 minutes. Also R4 takes up to 17 minutes on the timetable (longer if caught in traffic).
    Fact check 2: Brisbane and Canberra will both be using electric buses. Brisbane also has rail transport.

Les BZ Les BZ 10:35 am 28 Sep 21

And will the government listen ? Of course not

    Josh Salmon Josh Salmon 9:13 pm 28 Sep 21

    Not as long as our fellow "Ken Behrens" keep voting in the short bald guy 😂

    Dennis London Dennis London 1:51 pm 29 Sep 21

    Josh Salmon this has nothing to do with Mick Gentleman😂😂

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