20 September 2007

Canberra IVF doctor sued for "wrongful birth"

| GnT
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In an unprecedented case, a lesbian couple are suing a Canberra obstetrician for implanting two embryos during an IVF procedure when they only wanted one baby. Details are here. In a nutshell, they signed a form authorising the implantation of up to two embyos, yet verbally told the doctor they only wanted one. They are suing for the cost of raising the extra child, and have also outlined all the extra pain and suffering they have gone through.

I hope the poor kids never find out how much they weren’t wanted. Some people struggle to have just one child, and some people fall pregnant with twins naturally – they never plan the extra burden, yet have no-one to sue. Not to mention there is a certain amount of pain and suffering and associated with any pregnancy, regardless of how many babies you’re carrying.

This case is a poor reflection of our increasingly litigious society.

[Ed. The Australian has some further coverage of the case. -thanks darylk for the heads up]

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These pair only want to get donations, not give them.

er wait a second there greedy dames – you would have had to buy a pram in any case. The only way these vile women can redeem themselves now is by donating the ENTIRE sum of compensation or settlement to Bangladeshi slum families.

unbelievable3:34 pm 21 Sep 07

thanks Thumper

Just a few more things.

I was 38 when I got pregnant after years of abuse from my ex-partner.

I have one ovary.

The baby’s father gives me $3.06 a week child support (claims to have a disability – injured back – rubbish).

I was assaulted several times during the pregnancy and thrown down the stairs.

I left my job because my boss wouldn’t let me work more flexible hours even when I was 8 months pregnant.

The baby’s father cleaned out my bank account.


I am happier than ever before, living on $400 nett a week, paying my bills, no drug habit, no drinking, smoking or gambling habit and own everything I have.

My daughter and I are doing beautifully!!!!

The word “litigation” never crossed my mind although I had plenty of opportunity.

These lesbian women should be ashamed of themselves. Would they like to try living on $24,000 per annum?

I hope they lose!

All power to Dr Armellin!

unbelievable1:56 pm 21 Sep 07

This has probably already been said in the above 147 comments, but the lesbians comment about the cost of the pram really shocked me.

As a single mum on $24,000 per annum, I got my $3000 baby bonus 2 years ago (its now $4000), and I bought everything I needed for my beautiful baby girl.

What did these two lesbians do with their $6000 three years ago?

AND, surely a combined income of $120,000 can buy a bloody pram even if it is hundreds of dollars!

This case makes me sick to the stomach.

I wouldn’t ever consider suing God for allowing me to become pregnant with only one ovary, given I was told I only had 4% chance of conceiving.

Where do we draw the line.

I feel sorry for the little children who are growing up with two mums without any morals.


Pram too expensive? Pffffft.

FYI: Here is the Media Release Issued by “Lesbian Pair” earlier today – as posted on ACTQueer:

“To Dr Armellin’s credit he has acknowledged his mistake from the beginning of this process. We trust he has implemented changes in his practice to ensure no one else is subject to a procedure without their consent.

As strongly as we believe it is a woman’s right to choose to adopt out their child or to terminate their pregnancy it is equally a woman’s right to not do either of these things, and nor should she be called on to do so.

This case and some of the reaction to it exposes the belief in sectors of society, including the gay and lesbian community, that minority groups should be grateful for equal rights. If gratitude is a condition of these rights, then they are not full and genuinely equal.

This has never been a case about whether our children are loved. They are cherished. It is a case about the duty of care doctors owe their patients in any medical procedure, and a patient’s right only to be subject to the procedure they consented to.

Pursuing our convictions has resulted in a massive intrusion into our privacy and our most private deliberations. It has not been an easy decision
to take our case this far, and the risks to our children’s privacy remain very real.

We thank our friends and our families for their messages of support as news of this week has spread. We thank our legal team for their sound advice and skilled representation.”

Now, it should be pointed out that ACTQueer has also had a fair few people saying “these people endanger our rights in one of the few places, and with one of the few doctors, who is willing to do this kind of procedure for us”. So, no, there isn’t a united face on this.

But if we’re going to go “Stacks on”, as Riotact all too often does, on this one, then it’s only fair they get their voices in too.

Vic Bitterman10:21 pm 20 Sep 07

Well said barking toad…. you speak totally for me too.

Hot chick? Maybe VY got to her then?

So which child of the two is the unwanted one?

Truly, these high-income, self-centred women are a disgrace. They should have handed one of the babies over upon birth.
And since when is it unusual for a relationship to be tested by the arrival of an unexpected child?
The judge will find a deft way to give them a box around the ears – like 10c compensation, and tell them to put themselves in the shoes of the infertile, the poor or the hungry for the one second it should take to figure.
I hope Today Tonight get hold of them and give them the same treatment they meted out to Bec Cartright!

I’m sorry but wasn’t IVF started to assist hetero couples to have children when it ‘naturally’ wouldn’t occur?

When did it become a free for all?

In the car, on the way home, I heard that the ‘mother’ was also liable for the situation she has found herself in.

Still, I don’t agree with paying out money to them just so they can put a child they didn’t want in a Steiner School.

Sadly their court case has publicised lesbian access to ivf, and predictably people have come out against it. A liberal senator has now called for a ban on ifv for lesbian couples.

This couple really should have thought twice before launching into this court case I think.

barking toad5:54 pm 20 Sep 07

FFS GnT, it’s not a matter of homophobia.

As Maelinar succintly described it, two females can’t have children. Nor can two males.

The animal kingdom has species that display gay tendencies but you don’t see them reproducing. Because they can’t.

These lifestyle decisions by gays to acquire a fashion accessory to impress their friends should be barred.

There are three issues here.

1. The morally incorrect decision to allow lesbians to have children – sterilisation sounds good to me;
2. The fact that they now decide it’s too hard to actually raise them because it disrupts their life; and,
3. Their disgusting attempt to rort the legal system to get the rest of society to fund their decision that it’s now too hard.

It’s a tragedy they were allowed access to a procedure that enabled them to bring two healthy children into the world only to reject at least one. You can bet the other one will get the flick too.

The one refreshing thing about this case is that neither side is lying or saying ‘I can’t recall’.

The dr has fully admitted that he understood on the day that they had changed their minds to one embryo, but that he forgot to tell the person doing the transfer.

And the couple admit having originally signed for two (well they have to – it’s on paper, but anyway.)

So the facts are pretty clear – it is just up to the court to decide how much the couple contributed to the mistake by changing their minds, and how much the dr’s momentary lapse is worth in compensation – if any.

Actually, it does have bearing on this case.

Bring on your trailer trash analogies, but the male-female relationship pattern has been formed out of several thousand years of evolution. This evolution has the ability to produce offspring.

The female-female relationship does not have the ability to produce offspring, and is therefore being medically induced. I am yet to hear of an instance of a les-les-les granddaughter but it is medically possible, yet this is only 3 generations old !

So here you are on your soapbox, defending a genetically untested process, as the problems are unfolding – by kindly requesting we ‘cease the homophobia’ ?

You don’t think that this could be a problem when trying to lord it over several thousand years of evolution ?

Anyway, there’s no playing trains when all you have is 2 tunnels. Similarly, there’s no playing trains when you have too many plugs and not enough tunnels.

Look guys, their sexuality has no bearing on this case, either legally or ethically. Can we please cease the homophobia?

barking toad2:04 pm 20 Sep 07

They consented to the transfer of two embryos but later on had a change of mind (or the mummy did) but this wasn’t apparently properly communicated to the staff. It appears Armellin may not have been a director of the clinic but a consultant and this will further cloud the issue of them rorting money through legal proceedings.

The Canberra Age reported their current combined income as $160,000, an increase of previous reports. The poor little butches.

The sooner these wastes of space are thrown out of court and f@ck off out of the country with their children adopted by a normal family the better.

And IVF clinics should bar dykes.

It’s not a rumour, it is a fact that they originally signed a document saying two embryos, then on the day changed their mind to one.

This contributed to teh confusion, which saw the dr do the wrong thing – so they are partly responsible.

It also puts paid to their claim that they never ever wanted two children, and to get two has ruined their lives. At the point they signed the piece of paper they thought they could cope with two.

Spot on Thumper, what this woman is going through is exactly the same “rejection” that most fathers go through, and most of them survive. Maybe, they can learn a bit from men on this one.

Having a child has consequences.

Talking to a doctor is meant to mitigate against some of those consequences. If it doesn’t, what the hell is the point of talking to the doctor?

If you want something done to 100% of your specifications, do it yourself.

Yes, but the doctor told her he was going to do one thing and did another.

Let’s remove the emotive stuff from this. Get away from doctors (all saints, the lot of them, wonderful people), and lesbians (demons from the pits of hades) and actually express this in terms that make sense a bit.

The doctor said he’d do one thing. He did another. That’s called screwing up where I come from. And that has consequences.

Now, yes, the claim for damages has a buttload of stupid terminology – the line “I was left unable to love” sounds like bad soap opera. But the fact remains, hey, there’s a case here. And doctors shouldn’t be saying they’ll do one thing, then doing another. That has consequences.

All medical procedures carry risk. Even a simple process as taking a pill, which is a concentrated dose of a product, is risky.

All generic medical disclaimers contain sufficient terminology to avow medical practitioners of any responsibilities from conducting the medical process.

I’ll not hear of Doctors running amuck through the medical system, imposing their own will over standard procedures.

Firstly, they are humans too, so all they want to do is finish their work and go home to a nice dinner. Medical experimentation is something Hollywood uses to keep suckers transfixed to their idiot box.

Secondly, No elective medical procedure actually HAS to be done, this is why it’s elective. This person has ASKED a doctor to implant some sperm into her. There was no immediacy to this medical procedure, she hadn’t just been in a car accident for example.

All medical procedures carry risk. She has asked a doctor to do a risky thing, electively. Just because the result was not what she expected or anticipated, does not mean that the medical process was flawed, it means that she accepted a risk, and is now living with the consequences.

I pity the poor child. Schoolchildren have an uncanny knack of finding out dirt on other schoolchildren, and this is gold-dust in dirt terms.

hingo_VRCalaisV611:22 am 20 Sep 07

Does anyone else find it ironic that the lady with the condom malfunctions has opted for the name “gladbag”? 🙂

I had 2 surprise packages due to condom malfunctions, and hubby and I don’t get to do much together anymore (duh)- who do I get to sue for the private school fees???

Stupid women, DOCS should take their kids away and give them to a couple who’s IVF hasn’t worked, and send the bats off to England – we are far too forgiving as a society sometimes.

i hope nobody has mentioned the word irony.

Oh by the way I know of a few male gay couples who would gladly take the children off their hands !!

Gay males cant adopt easily… and surrogecy isn’t legal here…

Its taken them 3-4 years to determine that they didn’t want 2 children. They could of terminated one at the time of the pregnancy or done something about it earlier on..

Of course this is about the money.. Who is so ungrateful that they are blessed with 2 children and 3 years down the track decide to sue.

Can we now sue Condom manufacturers if they break and we fall pregnant… ???? Are they liable for the costs of raising the child ??

I just love this part of the Australian article:

Their mothers, whose combined income is almost $120,000, want $398,000 to cover the costs of raising one of the girls, including fees for a private Steiner school in Melbourne.

Pay for private education? Get stuffed.

Now, I haven’t had a go at their sexuality, just their ability to be ignorant shits.

If they didn’t want two kids, then they shouldn’t have had any. No parent ever gets “the child of their dreams”, they get the HEALTHY child they were meant to get.

barking toad5:22 pm 19 Sep 07

And if there was an edit button I’d probably change that to:

“If you’re female (using the word very loosely in this case) and you don’t like cock, you shouldn’t be allowed to have kids”

Average teenager to parents – “I didn’t ask to be born!”.

These greedy, selfcentred parents to teenager – “I didn’t ask for you to be born!”.

The times they are a changing!

barking toad4:56 pm 19 Sep 07

Selfish carpet lickers should not have access to IVF programs just to satisfy some whim.

And it’s an abuse of our legal system for them to seek cash because the responsibilities of raising children finally hit home when the novelty wore off and they ran out of bored gay people to tell how clever they were.

The sad ending to their smug selfishness will be the inevitable despairing life of the children.

The rule should be that if you don’t like cock, you don’t deserve kids!

hingo_VRCalaisV64:55 pm 19 Sep 07

England, thats fitting since they sounds like a bunch of bloody whingers.

LOL @ VY’s reply. Classic.

“The women’s names were suppressed until this morning, when visiting judge Justice Annabel Bennett will make a ruling as to whether to permanently conceal their identities. The women’s barrister, Hugh Marshall, SC, argued it could be distressing for the girls to discover several years down the track that their mothers did not want to have them both.”

“She and her partner, who were living in Watson at the time, had planned to go to England after the birth, but their plans were scrapped when they discovered they would be having twins, jeopardising their careers, relationship and health.”

Don’t they think the kids will work this out for themselves one day? Especially if they harp on about how the kid ‘ruined their lives’ by meaning they couldn’t go to England? It hasn’t stopped them going to England – there’s still plenty of time to do that later. Bloody selfish muppets!!!

Maybe child services should be keeping a close eye on this couple?

VYBerlinaV8 now_with_added grunt4:47 pm 19 Sep 07

It’s hard when I think of you RandomGit, I bet you’re a great looking chick…

Now was that so hard VY? Well done.

“She said the pair lost their lives functioning as a couple, becoming mired in everyday tasks associated with raising two children.”
Love that quote! I’ve a 6 month old and I feel like that now – does that mean I’ve hit the jackpot?? WAKE UP AND WELCOME TO THE WORLD OF CHILD REARING! whether you’re gay, straight, natural birth or IVF, 1 or multiples its a damn hard slog.

VYBerlinaV8 now_with_added grunt4:30 pm 19 Sep 07

naa naa nee naa naa

hingo_VRCalaisV64:28 pm 19 Sep 07

My responses are as childish as your resposes are a valid argument. What did you expect?

Shucks, I’m so offended … NOT. I wouldn’t expect any less of a pathetic response by you. When you haven’t got a good argument, attack! And that’s exactly what you’ve done. How childish.

hingo_VRCalaisV64:20 pm 19 Sep 07

DuffyMum, nice comeback, I’m really cut. I thought you weren’t going post here anymore. Face it, you love it. Where else on the internet can you get this kind of entertainment value?

Put that cock in your mouth and smoke it!

To second VY’s comment – the internet is a naturally offensive place. Sure you can get your point across without calling people dykes or making outrageous statements about forced sterilisation, but where’s the fun in that?

Don’t let people’s vitriol get in the way of a good argument – which is that these people would be self-centered money-grabbing jerks regardless of their sexuality, calling them dykes is just internet window dressing.

>”I love it when people can’t handle the fact that they are outnumbered so everyone else must be “narrow minded”. LOL!”

Outnumbered? Take a look outside this close minded forum and it might open your eyes to just what I am talking about.

And for the record, I am not a fan of homosexuality but this I keep to myself purely out of respect for those that live that way. I am also not a fan of doctors that do not listen to patients. I’m certainly no do-gooder.

Stick that in your pipe, hingo_VRCalaisV6.

I think they’ll make bad parents as they have gone public to say that they wish they didn’t have one of their children.

This cannot be good for their children’s self-worth.

VYBerlinaV8 now_with_added grunt4:02 pm 19 Sep 07

Northerly, our community has a range of ideas and opinions. What makes this blog interesting is that it’s one of the few places where these opinions are aired without sugar coating and politically correct spin. Most readers would, I suspect, be offended at some things they read here, but they also get to post their own opinion.

hingo_VRCalaisV64:02 pm 19 Sep 07

Looks like DuffyMum is off to find the blog for Do-Gooder morons that I mentioned earlier. I love it when people can’t handle the fact that they are outnumbered so everyone else must be “narrow minded”. LOL!

Northerly, yes, there are some pretty rediculous responses. I don’t see how somebody could hate someone because they are gay. Is it because they feel threatened? I don’t understand it. It doesn’t affect me, so I don’t particularly care.

This discussion isn’t about gay people though, it is about idiots who think giving birth to two healthy babies is a a tradgedy.

VYBerlinaV8 now_with_added grunt3:58 pm 19 Sep 07

RandomGit, I know it’s hard to read with your head up your ass, but the point I was trying to make was that without reading the full story (which I never claimed to do), was that I had initially hoped the couple in question had some altruistic reason for the suit, hence the comment about being able to afford the kid. Obviously (as you have so kindly and gently pointed out – “media gimp” and similar comments) this is not the case. Given this, I don’t think they’d make good parents. This opinion hasn’t changed.

But thanks for your input.

I often read the post and at times agree with what is said about current issues in our small city but today I am sad. Sad that I live in a community with people that say “gays should be sterilised” “dykes shouldn’t be allowed near children”. I am so disgusted with this attitude and that a community based forum like this would post suh hateful messages for all to read. There are some strong arguments for and against this particular issue but the bigotted nature in whch some participants are voicing their arguments shows a lack of understanding of the issue and intelligence on any level.

This thread has just proven to me that RiotACT has way too many narrow minded members. I’m out of here as I like intelligent discussions.

Snahons_scv6_berlina3:34 pm 19 Sep 07

forget trial by media, now its trial by blog 🙂

hingo_VRCalaisV63:32 pm 19 Sep 07

I love the quote: “She said the pair lost their lives functioning as a couple, becoming mired in everyday tasks associated with raising two children. “

Holy shit! You mean the kids don’t raise themselves? Selfish little bastards! LOL

It is becoming more and more obvious that this couple have no idea how to raise children

If they had a written consent to implant multiples, they were already without a legal crutch, but since hearing the “Lost any capacity for love I had, now that I am having to put up with the horro of and two designer babies rather than the one desginer baby we had hoped for, which is significantly more than the zero designer babies nature dictates our relationship & lifestyle should have…” side of things they’ve lost any credibility for public support.

Way to go lesbian litigators, inflating the premiums of ACT doctors and by extension, bills of ACT patients…

Also, the extra $15,000 for “time off work” = paid maternity leave?

Yes, that’s what can happen when further information comes to light. Just as well it is.

The Australian has some further coverage of the case.


seems our poor mother has ‘lost the capacity for love’ due to the horror of having to raise one more child than originally expected.

Honestly, I had some sympathy for their position until I read this. Certainly the doctor in question may have erred (although that’s yet to be conclusively established), but this is just ridiculous. Having an extra child caused them to become a disfunctional couple and lose the capacity for love and it’s all the doctor fault? what a crock of horse shit.

I hate to say it, but it appears the ‘bigots’ jumping to conclusions about self-centered cash-grabbing dykes may yet turn out to be correct.

hingo_VRCalaisV62:23 pm 19 Sep 07

If it isn’t about the money, why are they suing for the costs of raising the extra child? Shouldn’t they just sue for the lawyer costs and to get the doctor fined/jailed?

hingo_VRCalaisV62:21 pm 19 Sep 07

“Still, you are also in the ‘to bad if you can’t afford it’ camp of wild creative nonces. If that is your only argument then I suggest you go back to the drawing board.”

Speaking of creative, I like the way you took my sentence and mofified it. I’ve never seen that done before.

I think its a decent argument. If I was earning 100+ grand a year, I hardly think having two children would put me in the poor house.

Dear god, do I have to spell it out for you again? I’m not just saying these things to be nasty.

Here, I’ll do the work for you. You said:
Based on their intent to sue because they ‘can’t afford’ one of their kids, they are unsuitable parents.

But I’ve already pointed out, and the original news article backs me up here, that they never said they couldn’t afford it. So the premise of your ‘based on’ is false.

So you need to bring something new to the table to continue to support your ongoing belief they are not suitable parents.

I don’t care what it is, just do it.

do it


VYBerlinaV8 now_with_added grunt2:13 pm 19 Sep 07

As can you, my philistine friend.

No worries VY, You can base your opinions on whatever fabricated nonsense you like. Not my problem.

Apologies hingo, on a review I see the issue of homosexuality was raised by only one usual suspect who, as usual, doesn’t use facts and doesn’t stick around to back up himself.

Still, you are also in the ‘to bad if you can’t afford it’ camp of wild creative nonces. If that is your only argument then I suggest you go back to the drawing board.

VYBerlinaV8 now_with_added grunt1:51 pm 19 Sep 07

Sorry RandomGit, but you’ll need to kiss my ass now. I think these people are clearly unsuitable for parenting.

Sadly, I will never run a four minute mile. Nature, evolution, my disposition and age are against me. Should I keep trying? Or is it NOT about ME??
What about the children? What sort of impact will this have? Won’t it be great for one, or both, of them to grow up and know that one of them wasn’t wanted, and, they were both manufactured as a lifestyle choice?

barking toad1:28 pm 19 Sep 07

I’m not a bigot.

I just think dykes should be sterilsed so they can’t bear children.

Lets all use the word bigot!! You are a bigot! So and so is a bigot!

If you don’t like the general ambience of this site and its discussions, then maybe you should post on a blog with do-gooder chumps such as yourself.

I love it how all the defenders think the people opposed are “gay bashers” even though it has been brought up countless times that it wouldn’t matter if they had a male or femal partner, the viewpoint on the situatuion is the same. If that is your only argument then I suggest you go back to the drawing board.

Cast aspersions on a persons parenting ability (ergo, the right to reproduce) based on hateful conjecture?

No, I will not fucking well excuse you.

VYBerlinaV8 now_with_added grunt12:46 pm 19 Sep 07

Well excuuuuuuuuuse me for having the opinion that there might be a genuine reason, and not pure selfishness behind all this.

I take that back Mr Evil, you never mentioned homosexuality. So my bigotry comment isn’t directed at you at all, though you feel you need to address it nonetheless.

No, you can go back to the “can’t read a newspaper” grouping.

RandomGit, you are a light in this murky tunnel of uninformed and bigotted opinions.

VY, you are a media gimp.

Read the story. Nowhere did they say they can’t afford it. It isn’t even intimated. And what they make per year combined is also irrelevant. The extra child they did not ask for has come with a financial cost to them, they want that compensated. That is all that the article speaks of.

What makes you a bigot Mr Evil is inventing such facts to try and bolster your arguments that are merely based on your ignorant predisposition to homosexuals.

VYBerlinaV8 now_with_added grunt11:55 am 19 Sep 07

Based on their intent to sue because they ‘can’t afford’ one of their kids, they are unsuitable parents.

The fact that they are bean-flickers is irrelevant.

They would find if they weren’t minge munchers and did this naturally, they could also have twins. Nature sucks eh?

Yes, all us bigots who fit in quite nicely beside a woman who admits she earns $100K/annum but can’t afford the burden of raising two daughters.

There is a difference between negligence and a mistake.

But you can’t prove one or the other. I’d even add Intent to the list.

He has negligently forgotten the patients advice and knew he had immediately after the fact.

Whether or not it’s a cash grab, well, thats for the court of public opinion. Of which RA is usually a poor indicator at the best of times. Especially given the weight of bigots sticking their heads out on this one.

barking toad9:16 am 19 Sep 07

This case confirms my view that dykes should be sterilised.

Snahons_scv6_berlina8:51 am 19 Sep 07

Bartron: “… how wouls life be if every doctor that made a mistake was allowed to get away with it.”

A mistake is just that your moron. There is a difference between negligence and a mistake.

Duffymum, what about these kids as they grow up and the fact that given the sorry state of health and wellbeing of the population these days there isn’t much chance for these mums to be able to muck around with their kids when they are in their teens is there ? Damn sure sitting at home playing scrabble and bridge every weekend with the ‘mums’ is going to be real fun cause they’re stuck in a-frames.

Anybody know who is hearing this case?

I’m a utilitarian on the issue of IVF. The only IVF being used out there should be on livestock and endangered animals. There are enough kids out there around this world without parents (whether that be a mum and dad, a mum and mum, or a dad and dad) to ban IVF completely for humans.

My wife and I have discussed this issue of what to do if we can’t conceive. We know we are going to have trouble conceiving, the key thing being a excruciating pain for my wife once she stops taking medication to enable her to conceive, but if we don’t succeed, we’ll know it wasn’t meant to be.

We all pay in more ways than are obvious too.

My brother-in-law GP has decided he won’t deliver babies unless the mother is in danger. Not that he gets many opportunities, more the “on holidays and pregnant woman goes into labour” sort of thing. He’s had to decide to not help and let the mother do it all, because of liability, perhaps driven by his insurance cover.

My nurse sister won’t help at traffic accidents unless life is in danger. She says it’s not worth it, the safest thing (for her) is to call the ambos.

That’s not an outcome that benefits anyone.

Ultimately we all pay when twits like this win big money in court.

In the 18 months between our 1st child and our 2nd, the obstetricians hospital fee went from $1000 to $2000, which I understand was primarily due to medical insurance premiums going through the roof.

Stiff upper lip folks. Suck it up – we’ll all be better off.

Woody Mann-Caruso8:29 pm 18 Sep 07

Let’s not tar all homosexuals or all IVF patients with the same brush because of these sad, greedy wasters.

Vic Bitterman7:28 pm 18 Sep 07

Those selfish greedy women. I am appalled to think they are raising children. With attitudes like this, imagine how poisoned the minds of the children will be.

Sounds like a cock up to me.
I think the problem may be that no cock was involved.

Hey, stop looking at me like that… someone was going to say it!


They signed the piece of paper authorising for two embryos to be transferred, so they must have wanted two at some point.

What is the point of the piece of paper if the dr is supposed to ask what they want on the day?
If they had changed their mind they should signed a new form, to prevent confusion.

This is a grab for money, and complaining about having a child does not reflect well on them as parents. As someone else said, it will also increase insurance premiums for obstetricians, which are already so high that most drs won’t even bother studying obstetrics.


Just heard on the radio – the Dr did discuss with the patient, and knew one embryo only was to be transferred. When he realised two had been transferred “he swore, because he knew a mistake had been made”. Did someone else transfer them? Who loaded two into the transferring device?

Sounds like a cock up to me.

If having one and *only* one child was so vitally important to this couple, they didn’t do a very good job making this clear to the clinic. Why not say to the clinic “no, put ONE on the form now – if we can change our mind later, and want two, we’ll tell you”. Why wait until the last possible second to make your vitally important, critical wish known?

HOWEVER – that said, I do think something was awry with the clinic’s procedures if this could happen. I was in hospital recently and it made no difference what was written on bits of paper, I was still asked on at least 4 separate occasions for my name, the procedure I was having, whether I was allergic to anything, etc. A similar process confirming things should have gone on at the clinic so there was no doubt about what needed to happen.

Fingers crossed things are better 3 years on – I’m in for IVF in October.

Firstly, SIVF have nothing to do with this – this doctor is associated with CFC.

Whether or not IVF has become a more exact science in the years since these children were conceived has nothing to do with this.

The parents of these two children may well have “a leg to stand on” if it is proven that this doctor went against their wishes. This doctor has already apparently admitted such in court but claims that he is not liable because the number two was on the form that these patients signed two months earlier. But so was the number one.

Doesn’t this indicate that if two numbers seperated by the word “or” are still there (and neither has been crossed out) on the day of the transfer that the patient (not the doctor) would be asked to make a decision right there and then? The patient instructed “one”, the doctor transferred “two”, end of story.

One for the couple, one for eBay $$$!

Let’s put it into perspective shall we?

Exactly…and on the day they asked for ONE.

And? The paperwork informed them of the number that could be used. FFS, did they not know how to read?

Maybe we should ask the women – which twin do you want?

Because if they are good parents, they won’t choose and no parent would say “I didn’t want X so I want lots of money for it. Forget about Y, we wanted her so we’ll pay for her”.

This lawsuit is BS and anothing more than a money grab.

Growling Ferret5:27 pm 18 Sep 07

As my old man used to say, a verbal agreement is worth the paper its written on…

The procedure was 4 years ago, as the children are now 3. In the years since, IVF has become a far more exact science, and the chance of multiple birth is far lower.

However, the parents who choose to sue as they have 2 children, as could occur under the terms of the contract they would have signed with SIVF, should have no leg to stand on.

Any Tropfest viewers out there?

So which one will be Shane and which Carmichael?

See the decision is easy, one of the girls will get the nice bike, private school education and get to go to university, while the other doesn’t. The mums just have to choose which one.

How true, Barton!
It’s only what I’ve been trying to say all afternoon yet you summed it up precisely.

For the record, I neither agree not disagree with the “grab for money” and everyone else here seems to think is the case.

Doctors doing whatever the f%$k they want?….is that what you all think is right? Will you think the same way when you are on the operating table and you have a sudden change of heart…”Sorry Mr Smith, The piece of paper here says that you DO want a vasectomy…too late to change your mind now”

JD114, whatever comment or comments did I make here that I should be ashamed of? Please explain.

I stand by everything I have said – having done IVF I do know what I am talking about.

Yes it’s very sad that it appears that this couple is ungrateful for the second child but that is not what the case is about (if it was, it would no doubt not even make it to court) – again, it’s if the doctor went against the wishes of the patient or not, no matter how late in the piece.


Are you so thick you can’t see the absurdity of this claim?

Can you not look past the absudity of the claim and see that the result of this case will set a precedent that will affect anyone that goes through IVF. If they win, it opens the doors to god knows how many similar claims…if they lose then it lets IVF specialists say one thing to the patient and do another on paper

As I keep saying (and need to as nobody here is taking any notice), the issue is if the doctor transferred two embryos against the patient’s wish to have just one transferred. If he is guilty of that then he is guilty and they deserve compensation.

If people sued someone for every mistake in life, how would life be?

Doctors get sued for mistakes all the time…how wouls life be if every doctor that made a mistake was allowed to get away with it.

This isn’t a case of then cutting out a mole and taking a bit too much skin. Un-necessarily increasing the chances of a couple having twins is a pretty big oops.

As I’ve said earlier, if they really didn’t want the kid they would have got rid of it somehow but the DID keep it…they DID roll with the punches and they ARE looking after said child.

The twins are non-identical therefore the only reason they are both there is because a doctor made a mistake (and admitted as such). Who knows…they might have liked the idea of more children and gone back and had the second child anyway….we’ll never know.

Don’t assume that this is just a money grab…or is it the fact that it is a gay couple that’s getting to you?…they are gay therefore must be only after money and are selfish for wanting kids?


You should be ashamed of yourself. Are you so thick you can’t see the absurdity of this claim? Are you so hopeful one day the litigious gods will smile on you that you have to try and support immoral claims such as this?

The recipients of this IVF procedure are blatantly unsuitable parents and obviously lack any ethical standards or the kind of love for ANY offspring that characterises compassionate members of society.

In another universe they might find their attitude would result in having their children taken away and given to people who exhibit less callousness, greed and downright selfishness.

And you’re nearly as bad Bartron.

Maybe they should just sacrifice one of the children and be done with it? Or if that’s not palatable to them, maybe how about selling one of the children on eBay? 🙂

Stupid bloody cows.

nyssa76 is right. Surely the joy of bringing a new life into the world would far outweigh any negatives. If people sued someone for every mistake in life, how would life be? You wouldn’t get doctors operating on patients or people volunteering to fight fires or policeman arresting criminals.

I’m sure if you weigh up the pros and cons here, you will find that the only Con, in regards to the aricle, is the cost of raising the child. If they are so financially unstable that they can’t bring up a child, then should they be considering children in the first place? You get dole-bludging idiots popping out a kid a year but they still get by with a roof over their head. These people are earning $100,000+ grand a year.

Come on!

Here’s a thought Bartron, they signed a legal document which advised ONE OR TWO embryos would be used

Exactly…and on the day they asked for ONE.

you have three kids…bully for you…I have 2 and have no plans to stop trying…..not for the money either

>Did she consult the doctor afterwards or did she go straight to her lawyers?

The kids are three now – hardly a rush to the lawyers.

And what would talking to the doctor after the event result in? No change at all. It’s not like he could do anything (apart from the very risky procedure I mentioned in an earlier post).

Here’s a thought Bartron, they signed a legal document which advised ONE OR TWO embryos would be used. One would assume that such a clause was fitted in the event that only one embryo would attach, thus ensuring a 50-50 chance of a full term pregnancy.

Did they consult legal counsel before they signed? It was their right to do so. They can’t scream “but no I said this” when they signed that document without duress.

Oh and I have 3 children, so I know what raising kids is like. They aren’t cheap but I didn’t do it for the money.

I don’t see why it would be any of his concern

So why is it his concern to follow tha 2 month old paperwork to the letter if the patient has an 11th hour change of mind?

No I haven’t jumped to a conclusion about his ego – I know what he is like.

And I also know what the documents are like at this clinic, that they are so simple that it would have taken but a moment of delay to fill in the replacement document before continuing on with the transfer.

So DuffyMum, so you are sure that the Doctor did this to cater to his ego? Its not his child so I don’t see why it would be any of his concern. You have jumped to a conclusion that is rather ridiculous.

If the patient instructed the doctor in the moments prior to birth, then the procedure wouldn’t have been performed until new documents were drawn up. I don’t see how the details of the procedure can be changed verbally on-the-fly which is what you are basically saying.

Medical implications aside, I think the thought of a tempting cash-grab is what inspired this case more than anything. Did she consult the doctor afterwards or did she go straight to her lawyers?

Bartron, it’s a child.

It’s not like you went in to have an apendectomy and had a limb removed.


A child is a life changing thing and permanent fixture in your life…they aren’t free though. No-one is going to sue if they try IVF and fail and while I don’t necessarily agree they rthey should be suing for the reaason that kids are expensive to maintain, the fact is that the doctor when against the patients wishes…FFS

Plain and simple, the doctor did not do what he agreed to do for this patient, ie. transfer one embryo. What other form of compensation do you think is acceptable – food vouchers? LOL.

Bartron, it’s a child.

It’s not like you went in to have an apendectomy and had a limb removed.


I’d love to know how many of you would not sue if you went in for an appendix operation and came out having been sterilised – it is just as much a life changing event as what this couple have experienced.

You know what, after reading all these posts, I wonder whether they would have sued the doctor had the IVF failed – as artifical insemination did.

What is this world coming to when people sue because they got one extra child?

Having lost a child through miscarriage I sure as hell would have loved to carry the child to term. So what if I ended up with 4 kids? I would love and support them no matter what.

It’s all about the money. I pity the children and hope they never hear of this matter.

>Yeah Bartron, it sounds like they are overjoyed.

They probably were happy once the babies had finally safely arrived. You can’t tell me that people, when first told they are expecting multiples, don’t get a shock. Some take it well, some don’t. But most are fine by the time the babies are born.

Thumper is right, the issue isn’t about the extra child, its about how much dough that child could potentially rake in

And if you asked for a procedure and you got something else that in the long run would cost you a lot of money you wouldn’t consider seeking compensation?

>who the hell really wants kids in their 40s? selfish people I tells ya !!!

How totally pathetic a comment this is! Who gave you the right to judge others like that???

It is so very sad to see so many comments here that indicate just how much of a bigoted and close minded society we live in. The sexuality of this couple has absolutely no relevance to this case!!!

The other sad thing about alot of these comments is that they show the blatant lack of understanding of what exactly is involved in IVF. And of pregnancy too.

Firstly, no embryo is ever “implanted” by a doctor/specialist – it is transferred high up into the uterus and left there to implant itself.

Secondly, for those who presume that by transferring more than one embryo at the same time increases your chance of pregnancy, you are wrong. There is scientific research out there that proves this hence why all clinics in Australia are moving towards only transferring one embryo per cycle.

IMHO I believe that she may well have a case. As a potentially older mother the risks to her health alone are way more serious with a multiples pregnancy. The risk to the babies is just as serious with an older mother – more chance of low birth weights, downs syndrome, high blood pressure, pre-eclampsia and eclampsia and (worst of all) miscarriage or still birth. Her body most likely would not have been as forgiving as that of a mother in her 20’s so the sheer pain and discomfort of carrying twins would be more so much worse.

Yes, they could have put one up for adoption (what a horrible choice to make) or selectively reduced (a procedure that is extremely risky), but neither are decisions that I would like to have to consider.

For those of you saying that they should be grateful that they have two, some get none at all – I can understand why you would think like this. I myself if put in this situation would have accepted that I was having twins, panicked a bit at first (like anyone expecting multiples would), but got on with it. But for some people they just have very fixed ideas about what they want in life. I have many friends like that – I can’t understand them but I accept that that is them.

But the real issue with this case is this – a doctor, according to a patient, has directly gone against her wishes. That is the crux of this case, and only that. Not their sexuality and not even how many children they did end up with (as has been raised, embryos can split to form twins). If this doctor was instructed, verbal or otherwise, just moments prior to the transfer that the patient only wanted one embryo transferred then that is what he should have done. The other embryo could have easily been frozen for a future cycle as is the practice. There was absolutely no reason for this doctor to go against this patient’s wishes – I expect he did it because he just wanted to do what he wanted to do, that he thought that the patient was making a mistake, that he knew better. Serve him right if he gets taken to the cleaners.

Thumper is right, the issue isn’t about the extra child, its about how much dough that child could potentially rake in. This decision requires more than a verbal agreement and the fact is, the mother should have read the form before signing. Common sense.

You don’t sign up for a loan and then sue the bank because you can’t afford the repayments.

Hingo – anyone that hears that they are having twins or triplets goes through a stage of wondering how the hell they are going to cope. If they were truely unhappy with having two kids they would have got rid of one…they didn’t therefore they must have come to terms with the fact that they have two kids.

The issue isn’t about how many kids they did or didn’t get…it’s about a doctor that didn’t respect his patients wishes. For a lot of other medical procedures, verbal concent is all they need…why should this be any different? They sayd they wanted one embryo transferred and while the doctor agreed that that is what they said he went against that and is now hiding behind a technicality.

“Yes they should be happy that they have 2 kids and no doubt they are” – Bartron

“I remember sitting on the couch and feeling devastated, absolutely devastated,” the 40-year-old mother said.

Yeah, they sound overjoyed.

Yeah Bartron, it sounds like they are overjoyed.

Snahons_scv6_berlina3:47 pm 18 Sep 07

A sad tale of some selfish people. Plus who the hell really wants kids in their 40s? selfish people I tells ya !!!

Great pierce, so you’re advocating homosexuality as a genetic predisposition

Who in their right mind would “Chose” to be ostracised by society and teh Government in the way that they are.

Totally absurd to think that people chose to be gay.

Its a disposition – not a choice.

In any case if you get IVF and end up with 2 kids deal with it – should be a blessing not a hindrance….. like someone said – poor kid.

If you conceive naturally and get twins do you sue?

I’m going to go against everyone here and ask people to lay off with the “ungrateful shits” comments. Yes they should be happy that they have 2 kids and no doubt they are. If they really didn’t want 2 kids they could have given one up for adoption or something like that.

The risk of identical twins is always there. If that’s what they had then they have no argument, however they were led to believe that they could make the decision up to the day of the procedure. What this highlights is the improper advice being dished out by staff and nurses at CFC. They are in the IVF business, it’s not unreasonable to assume that they should know what they are talking about. If this lawsuit is sucessful then the precedent is set that the document signed 2 months prior is advisory only and that any verbal agreement on the day of the procedure should be adheared to.

Do I believe that they should sue for the cost of raising the child up to the age of 21?…maybe, maybe not, but I do think they have a right to compensation for the stress od raising twins and the cost to their relationship (regardless of sexual orientation…I thought society was past that…obviously I was wrong).

Life’s a gift. no matter who you are, or what your sexual preference is. What a terrible start to this baby’s life.

My favourite quote from the article was this:

“I remember sitting on the couch and feeling devastated, absolutely devastated,” the 40-year-old mother said.

Devastation? Spare a thought for the couples who would have WELCOMED one, two or three babies and got NONE.

There’s a practical reason why doctors implant more than one embryo in IVF.

Most implantations fail so they double-up (or triple-up etc) to boost the odds of success.

Of course, the flip side is that there are a lot more cases of multiple pregnancies in IVF.

All this would have been explained to them and documented (i.e. the lesbians concerned signed the relevant forms).

They don’t have a leg to stand on legally.

Morally, they’re repugnent for being so self-centred that they view parenthood through a purely financial lens. It seems parenthood was a mere lifestyle choice for them – sort of like buying a pair of shoes … or a poodle.

They knew two eggs were being implanted. Ergo they ‘allowed’ for several possibilities to occur – 1) one attaches and the other doesn’t; 2) none attach or 3) both attach.

They should just be thankful that they had healthy children. Some peopel spend years using IVF and don’t conceive. Ungrateful shits.

I don’t think it matters what your sexuality is. They signed a form in plain english. A verbal agreement doesn’t hold water. I think they should have the same pregnancy choices that regular couples do. If you have twins, stiff shit. Deal with it.

Whats to say they didn’t already notice this on the form and kept it quiet to later use it to their financial advantage? 99% of the population would be gateful to be able to give life, why not this couple? There is something not right about this.

Great pierce, so you’re advocating homosexuality as a genetic predisposition?

I think they also have taken issue with that views as well.

Good to see you’ve come out of the woodwork again, too.

While the central issues of this case are fairly complex (the question of what if one embryo had split into twins is certainly one for the courts), this is a business transaction in essence. Did they get what they paid for?

Imagine going in for an amputation (don’t ask me why) only to wake and find that both limbs had been chopped. (I realise this is a stretch but work with me here).

Personally I think that suing medicos is bad for society as they work in a field full of uncertainties but this is the system we have and if we are going to be seen as consumers above all else, this is how it will remain.

The sexuality of the plaintiffs is irrelevant.

The idea that homosexuality is a “lifestyle choice” is antiquated at best and bigoted at worst. Using that as a reason for people not to be treated equally is sad.

…and there’s the sound of skyrocketing medical insurance premiums again, and the subsequent groan by couples as the doctors pass the fee onto their patients.

I think its really about time the govt stepped in and put a stop to the sue-everyone-for-anything society, otherwise we’ll soon be worse than the US.

Didn’t they take these documents away and read them before signing them? Surely this desicion is big enough to double check all the details first. I don’t see how they have a leg to stand on here. Kids aren’t disposable and they aren’t assembled on a factory line. Regular couples don’t whinge and moan about having twins, they get on with their lives.

VYBerlinaV8 now_with_added grunt3:04 pm 18 Sep 07

I definitely endorse their marriage if they’re both hot. Children are a different issue, though.

> This just goes to show that you shouldn’t let dykes anywhere near children

I don’t think it shows that at all. It just shows that these two women are trying their luck at grabbing some money, hopefully they don’t get any.

This just goes to show that you shouldn’t let dykes anywhere near children.

VY – Would you forgive them if they were both hot?

What would they be doing if only one embryo was implanted and it split naturally into twins?!

Well good on em, it just seems a bit weird is all.. must be confusing for the kids huh? “So which one of you is my Mum”

VYBerlinaV8 now_with_added grunt2:37 pm 18 Sep 07

I’m with Bonfire on this – choices have consequences. Children are not a ‘right’.

> Anyways, I thought you waived the right to have kids when you get your lez on?

I know a couple of lady lovin’ ladies with kids, although they did it the old fashioned way.

I agree with bonfire. These people can’t expect to have their cake and eat it too.

I feel so sorry for the kid 🙁 … imagine being completely unwanted. Anyways, I thought you waived the right to have kids when you get your lez on?

Just a matter of time now before a non-IVF couple sue God I suppose.

if homosexuals want children, liaise with a heterosexual.

choosing a particular lifestyle carries with it certain choices.

Wow, how truly pathetic. They were lucky to get even one baby. Fucking ungrateful idiots. One can only imagine how this child is going to turn out.

Snahons_scv6_berlina2:09 pm 18 Sep 07

So… they desperately yearn for a baby enough to go through the saga of IVF but they only desperately yearn enough for one. Yep, there’s definately love there.

If they wanted a guarantee of one, go adopt.

Another reason to cease allowing IVF to be used by the wrong people for all the wrong reasons.

Farking designer pregnancies.

I hope it gets thrown out of court.

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