Capital Metro Consultation Heads to Dickson

bundah said :

Me2 said :

dungfungus said :

High speed train crashes at low speed:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28358137

How on earth is this relevant?

Well the big white elephant will have to be as quick as the TGV to make it viable or it’ll be derailed….

Bundah, I applaud your intellect to see relevance where few others can (or won’t).

Me2 said :

dungfungus said :

High speed train crashes at low speed:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28358137

How on earth is this relevant?

It is relevant because if I didn’t draw your attention to it you wouldn’t have known about it would you.
The ABC and Fairfax Media only want “good news” about rail.
Remember, the VFT is another fantasy of The Greens so anything that can dent that dream is going to help save Australian taxpayers from another white elephant like the Canberra light rail project.

The hoped-for funding assistance from the Federal Government is looking even less likely now, as a result of another stand-off with the Senate over the Asset Recycling Fund Bill:

“….One of the Labor amendments would ensure those infrastructure projects worth more than $100m were assessed by Infrastructure Australia with a published cost-benefit analysis.

Abetz said the asset recycling legislation was an “essential part” of the government’s agenda to build the infrastructure of the 21st century and create jobs, and it was important that the fund be able to operate without the particular impediments proposed by the Senate.

But the Labor senator Doug Cameron said the requirement for a proper cost-benefit analysis was in line with previous Coalition rhetoric about the need for checks and balances on the spending of billions of dollars in public money.”

[Full report here: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/17/coalitions-asset-recycling-scheme-watered-down-in-senate ]

Of course, this minor….. detail will be brushed aside, and the rhetoric about vision (Grifin and otherwise) and (unmeasurable, ill-defined) benefits will be cranked up – with the ever growing certainty that all Canberra rates and taxpayers will be lumbered with the full bill for the trams.

Me2 said :

dungfungus said :

High speed train crashes at low speed:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28358137

How on earth is this relevant?

Well the big white elephant will have to be as quick as the TGV to make it viable or it’ll be derailed….

Me2 said :

dungfungus said :

High speed train crashes at low speed:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28358137

How on earth is this relevant?

To be fair, Dungers doesn’t really do ‘relevant’.

dungfungus said :

High speed train crashes at low speed:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28358137

How on earth is this relevant?

High speed train crashes at low speed:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28358137

dungfungus said :

HiddenDragon said :

dungfungus said :

Simon Corbell is working hard to save the light rail. Why this is published in the Brisbane Times is a mystery (well it’s Fairfax Media’s way I guess).
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/comment/rail-network-has-proven-its-benefits-worldwide-20140715-zt7pf.html

An identical (or very similar?) piece in the CT had this paragraph, which says it all

“It is true that the benefit cost ratio for bus rapid was higher than for light rail – but there are important benefits beyond economic return that a BCR does not consider. And importantly in Canberra’s case, the light rail project Capital Metro is not just a public transport project – it is the glue that holds together the city’s urban renewal plans. “

Had the “Griffin Vision” provided us with potential rail corridors not criss-crossed by significant roads, and a truly viable economic and population base for such major infrastructure, there might be some rationality to it – as it is, we have something which is looking more and more like a hugely expensive fashion statement.

The “Griffin vision” is dug out and dusted off only when necessary. When you look at it in it’s entirety it has nothing to do with social glue and all that nonsense.
Griffin was simply referring to trams as way of moving people and indeed, the first noises about the Capital Metro “vision” before the 2012 were solely about moving people.
It didn’t stack up them and no matter what is tacked on to it won’t stack up now or in the future.

Indeed. Canberra Hospital was on the Griffin plan for goodness sake!

HiddenDragon said :

dungfungus said :

Simon Corbell is working hard to save the light rail. Why this is published in the Brisbane Times is a mystery (well it’s Fairfax Media’s way I guess).
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/comment/rail-network-has-proven-its-benefits-worldwide-20140715-zt7pf.html

An identical (or very similar?) piece in the CT had this paragraph, which says it all

“It is true that the benefit cost ratio for bus rapid was higher than for light rail – but there are important benefits beyond economic return that a BCR does not consider. And importantly in Canberra’s case, the light rail project Capital Metro is not just a public transport project – it is the glue that holds together the city’s urban renewal plans. “

Had the “Griffin Vision” provided us with potential rail corridors not criss-crossed by significant roads, and a truly viable economic and population base for such major infrastructure, there might be some rationality to it – as it is, we have something which is looking more and more like a hugely expensive fashion statement.

The “Griffin vision” is dug out and dusted off only when necessary. When you look at it in it’s entirety it has nothing to do with social glue and all that nonsense.
Griffin was simply referring to trams as way of moving people and indeed, the first noises about the Capital Metro “vision” before the 2012 were solely about moving people.
It didn’t stack up them and no matter what is tacked on to it won’t stack up now or in the future.

HiddenDragon said :

dungfungus said :

Simon Corbell is working hard to save the light rail. Why this is published in the Brisbane Times is a mystery (well it’s Fairfax Media’s way I guess).
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/comment/rail-network-has-proven-its-benefits-worldwide-20140715-zt7pf.html

An identical (or very similar?) piece in the CT had this paragraph, which says it all

“It is true that the benefit cost ratio for bus rapid was higher than for light rail – but there are important benefits beyond economic return that a BCR does not consider. And importantly in Canberra’s case, the light rail project Capital Metro is not just a public transport project – it is the glue that holds together the city’s urban renewal plans. “

Had the “Griffin Vision” provided us with potential rail corridors not criss-crossed by significant roads, and a truly viable economic and population base for such major infrastructure, there might be some rationality to it – as it is, we have something which is looking more and more like a hugely expensive fashion statement.

If the ACT Government are going to ignore the BCR/business case, why do it in the 1st place ? How strange.

dungfungus said :

Simon Corbell is working hard to save the light rail. Why this is published in the Brisbane Times is a mystery (well it’s Fairfax Media’s way I guess).
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/comment/rail-network-has-proven-its-benefits-worldwide-20140715-zt7pf.html

An identical (or very similar?) piece in the CT had this paragraph, which says it all

“It is true that the benefit cost ratio for bus rapid was higher than for light rail – but there are important benefits beyond economic return that a BCR does not consider. And importantly in Canberra’s case, the light rail project Capital Metro is not just a public transport project – it is the glue that holds together the city’s urban renewal plans. “

Had the “Griffin Vision” provided us with potential rail corridors not criss-crossed by significant roads, and a truly viable economic and population base for such major infrastructure, there might be some rationality to it – as it is, we have something which is looking more and more like a hugely expensive fashion statement.

Masquara said :

“No decisions have been made”? Bwa ha ha ha! Does anyone believe that?

They appear to have properly started work…

http://www.canberratimes.com.au/act-news/light-rail-utilities-study-begins-in-gungahlin-20140714-zt6ia.html

“No decisions have been made”? Bwa ha ha ha! Does anyone believe that?

Simon Corbell is working hard to save the light rail. Why this is published in the Brisbane Times is a mystery (well it’s Fairfax Media’s way I guess).
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/comment/rail-network-has-proven-its-benefits-worldwide-20140715-zt7pf.html

Update on Minnesota Twin Cities debate I posted on an earlier thread:
http://www.twincities.com/localnews/ci_26131863/gateway-corridor-will-get-buses-not-light-rail

TaxedContractor said :

Oh look, yet another report that touts buses as the best light rail network for Canberra:

http://www.canberratimes.com.au/act-news/productivity-commission-casts-doubt-on-light-rail-benefits-20140714-zt75q.html

Starting to wonder if anyone at the council chambers can actually read?

I’ll wait until the thread comes out before shooting the fish in the barrel

Oh look, yet another report that touts buses as the best light rail network for Canberra:

http://www.canberratimes.com.au/act-news/productivity-commission-casts-doubt-on-light-rail-benefits-20140714-zt75q.html

Starting to wonder if anyone at the council chambers can actually read?

rommeldog56 said :

Canberroid said :

rommeldog56 said :

There seems to be no stopping them. Look at the wording !

They are not even waiting for the results of the various studies underway to come in – nor the Benefits Costs Ratio (BCR) – stuff all that – they will just plough on anyway !

There isn’t even a pretence of a fully informed decision.

It really does begger belief.

We get it – you don’t like light rail for Canberra. You’ve posted who knows how many posts reiterating the fact that you don’t like it. Since the project is happening whether you like it or not, can we please move the discussion on from simply whether or not it should be happening?

There are plenty of interesting things to discuss about the project. Maybe some commenters even learnt the difference between a battery and a supercapacitor last time we ventured beyond the basic “I don’t like it” whingefest.

Yeah – way to go canberraoid.

Is it any wonder that this ACT Gov’t is running all over Ratepayers !

Apathy seems to reign supreme here. I suppose those who oppose the Light Rail should just be “processed” through a Light Rail acceptance re education program.

I’m having trouble constructing a reply with which the moderator agrees (but evidently they kindly let this one through).

Canberroid said :

There are plenty of interesting things to discuss about the project.

Indeed. For example how much is this going to cost and who is going to pay for it?

miz said :

‘so much more’ could be delivered with buses for way less – if only they would actually look at the evidence. But there is none so blind as those who will not see.

Exactly.

Mr Corbell, I’ll tell you how probably 90% of Canberran’s want their light rail to look. It is also how seemingly all but 1 study also suggests they look, and strangely enough very similar to every other small metro centre’s light rail outcome.

They could be orange, have 2 doors, 6 wheels – possibly more. They could utilise existing overnight parking infrastructure, could cover all of Canberra immediately, can be routed on demand and routes changed at whim, and even at their current loss making operation they would not delve Canberra into unneeded debt for the next 20+ years.

That’s correct – they are called buses. This is how we want the system to look and operate, not some narrow minded monument to a council who (lets face it) won’t even be around by the time it has it’s first breakdown and causes traffic chaos to the “proper” light rail.

How about we all give up on this plan and invest the money into Action and provide a benefit for the whole city?

I’m sure the rate payers would even be happy to pay for a trip to the local model train exhibitions twice a year in order to satisfy the desires of Capital Metro et al…

gooterz said :

Canberroid said :

rommeldog56 said :

There seems to be no stopping them. Look at the wording !

They are not even waiting for the results of the various studies underway to come in – nor the Benefits Costs Ratio (BCR) – stuff all that – they will just plough on anyway !

There isn’t even a pretence of a fully informed decision.

It really does begger belief.

We get it – you don’t like light rail for Canberra. You’ve posted who knows how many posts reiterating the fact that you don’t like it. Since the project is happening whether you like it or not, can we please move the discussion on from simply whether or not it should be happening?

There are plenty of interesting things to discuss about the project. Maybe some commenters even learnt the difference between a battery and a supercapacitor last time we ventured beyond the basic “I don’t like it” whingefest.

Fine.

Are they going to gold plate the cars or go for platinum?

I don’t think it’ll make too much difference for overall cost.

Also they should put full size sofa’s in there the few people who ride it may as make use of the space.

“Are they going to gold plate the cars or go for platinum?”

Well, rhodium didn’t work out despite the massive (still undisclosed) cost so gold or platinum are surely contenders.

Canberroid said :

rommeldog56 said :

There seems to be no stopping them. Look at the wording !

They are not even waiting for the results of the various studies underway to come in – nor the Benefits Costs Ratio (BCR) – stuff all that – they will just plough on anyway !

There isn’t even a pretence of a fully informed decision.

It really does begger belief.

We get it – you don’t like light rail for Canberra. You’ve posted who knows how many posts reiterating the fact that you don’t like it. Since the project is happening whether you like it or not, can we please move the discussion on from simply whether or not it should be happening?

There are plenty of interesting things to discuss about the project. Maybe some commenters even learnt the difference between a battery and a supercapacitor last time we ventured beyond the basic “I don’t like it” whingefest.

Fine.

Are they going to gold plate the cars or go for platinum?

I don’t think it’ll make too much difference for overall cost.

Also they should put full size sofa’s in there the few people who ride it may as make use of the space.

clickety clack, clickety clack, noisy white elephant coming thru.

Canberroid said :

rommeldog56 said :

There seems to be no stopping them. Look at the wording !

They are not even waiting for the results of the various studies underway to come in – nor the Benefits Costs Ratio (BCR) – stuff all that – they will just plough on anyway !

There isn’t even a pretence of a fully informed decision.

It really does begger belief.

We get it – you don’t like light rail for Canberra. You’ve posted who knows how many posts reiterating the fact that you don’t like it. Since the project is happening whether you like it or not, can we please move the discussion on from simply whether or not it should be happening?

There are plenty of interesting things to discuss about the project. Maybe some commenters even learnt the difference between a battery and a supercapacitor last time we ventured beyond the basic “I don’t like it” whingefest.

Yeah – way to go canberraoid.

Is it any wonder that this ACT Gov’t is running all over Ratepayers ! Apathy seems to reign supreme here. I suppose those who oppose the Light Rail should just be “processed” through a Light Rail acceptance re education program.

dungfungus said :

I wonder if they have the results of the “services located under Northbourne Avenue audit” to release.
The Capital Metro “final product” has already been decided. It will be the same as the Gold Coast and Adelaide light rail systems.
Something to consider:
Population of Gold Coast is approx. 530,000 and the light rail cost was over twice what was budgeted.
Population of Adelaide is approx. 1,280,000.
Population of Gungahlin to City strip is about 60,000 and it is already adequately served by ACTION.
There is really nothing more to say.
Corbell is committing electoral suicide but he has no accountability and a handsome guaranteed ratepayer funded pension to look forward to.

If you are going to compare cities you should be doing like for like, not comparing oranges to apples.

You quote total population statistics for two cities then just the corridor City to Gungahlin. So typical of you liberals trwist numbers to suit your argument with no context.

Now if 60k live along the route of the proposed light rail, your figure of course, then that would be just under 1/6th of the total ACT population (of ~380,000), along one narrow corridor. Guess goes to show that the population density along this route is quite high especially given that it isn’t even fully developed.

Oh BTW population density is what is important not total size of cities. There are plenty of cities world wide the same size, population wise and smaller that have light rail they of course, they do of course have higher population densities, a bit like the corridor to Gungahlin. Population density along the route is why the only route in Canberra that makes sense if to Gungahlin.

‘so much more’ could be delivered with buses for way less – if only they would actually look at the evidence. But there is none so blind as those who will not see.

rommeldog56 said :

There seems to be no stopping them. Look at the wording !

They are not even waiting for the results of the various studies underway to come in – nor the Benefits Costs Ratio (BCR) – stuff all that – they will just plough on anyway !

There isn’t even a pretence of a fully informed decision.

It really does begger belief.

We get it – you don’t like light rail for Canberra. You’ve posted who knows how many posts reiterating the fact that you don’t like it. Since the project is happening whether you like it or not, can we please move the discussion on from simply whether or not it should be happening?

There are plenty of interesting things to discuss about the project. Maybe some commenters even learnt the difference between a battery and a supercapacitor last time we ventured beyond the basic “I don’t like it” whingefest.

I wonder if they have the results of the “services located under Northbourne Avenue audit” to release.
The Capital Metro “final product” has already been decided. It will be the same as the Gold Coast and Adelaide light rail systems.
Something to consider:
Population of Gold Coast is approx. 530,000 and the light rail cost was over twice what was budgeted.
Population of Adelaide is approx. 1,280,000.
Population of Gungahlin to City strip is about 60,000 and it is already adequately served by ACTION.
There is really nothing more to say.
Corbell is committing electoral suicide but he has no accountability and a handsome guaranteed ratepayer funded pension to look forward to.

There seems to be no stopping them. Look at the wording !

They are not even waiting for the results of the various studies underway to come in – nor the Benefits Costs Ratio (BCR) – stuff all that – they will just plough on anyway !

There isn’t even a pretence of a fully informed decision.

It really does begger belief.