5 October 2011

Car v. Bus at the Mall

| johnboy
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car smash

Caitlin has sent in these pictures with this explanation:

So here are the pictures I took of the aftermath. It happened at the top of the hill where the Cohen street extension comes past the Westfield Bus Station.

It’s a horrible intersection, and while cars are meant to give way to any buses coming or going, they just don’t.

I’ve witnessed a lot of near misses, and it was only a matter of time before something this bad happened.

The car ran into the bus around 2.15 this afternoon, it was the bus before ours, doing the 71 route.

Apparently another car went in front of the bus, and the bus honked at it, this girl hesitated then tried to make it through before the bus and this happened.

There were 3 passangers in the car, and they all walked away from the accident, and were taken to the hospital by ambulance.

bus

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Traffic control update.

The give way signs at this intersection have been replaced with STOP signs.

I don’t think this will make too much difference as STOP signs seem to be treated, by the majority of drivers, as more forceful GIVE WAY signs; no need to stop, just slow down a bit more.

I sat there for a few minutes and recorded the behavior of motorists.

Number of cars that had no need to give way that did not stop: 18
Number of cars that stopped as per the law when no need to give way: 2

As one of the cars was actually a bus I think the amount of respect for stop signs is even lower than my tally is revealing.

BenMac said :

Bus 1. Car 0.

+1

johnboy said :

Best thread ever.

Can’t be. No Gillespie.

screaming banshee12:32 pm 08 Oct 11

krystal_moon282 said :

Loving how all of you think because I know her I am covering her back, I’ve seen this girl drive, she drives so cautiously. Never even seen her speed. & am loving the fact the police have a different story to what is on this website.

That is officially the first time I have ever seen a sentence started with an ampersand.

Ok. That’s it. My next car is a bus.

Pete, who will not have to worry about cars with idiot drivers, or kangaroos, or cyclists

krystal_moon282 said :

Loving how all of you think because I know her I am covering her back, I’ve seen this girl drive, she drives so cautiously. Never even seen her speed. & am loving the fact the police have a different story to what is on this website.

Really? Read the report have you?

If she’s at fault – which she obviously was – then she’ll receive a ticket (if she hasn’t already).

I blame the bus driver. The police officer speaking to him in the last photo was obviously so fearful of his wild bus driver ways, that he’s refused to remove his helmet.

i know my friends shouldn’t have done that but i didnt know they did it , but its over now i’ve learnt from my mistake that is what matters. this can all stop now πŸ™‚

cinnmcgrath said :

i was in the car and my favourtie moment was when Becs McChicken Burger went all over Sarah

Brilliant.

krystal_moon282 said :

she drives so cautiously.

So cautiously she got hit head on by a bus?

krystal_moon282 said :

Never even seen her speed.

Well, case closed then, shes a safe driver.

krystal_moon282 said :

& am loving the fact the police have a different story to what is on this website.

oh, please post the link to police media release please. I couldn’t seem to find it.

krystal_moon28210:11 pm 07 Oct 11

Loving how all of you think because I know her I am covering her back, I’ve seen this girl drive, she drives so cautiously. Never even seen her speed. & am loving the fact the police have a different story to what is on this website.

cinnmcgrath said :

i was in the car and my favourtie moment was when Becs McChicken Burger went all over Sarah

GOLD. This thread just keeps delivering.

12345 said :

here is the driver of the car speaking.. yes i know it probably was my fault, i am sure none of you are perfect drivers and have miss judged at some point. but what has been said is not right, if i “tried to get across before the bus” wouldn’t it have hit my door like being T boned? i obviously was sticking out a little bit which is why it hit the front right hand corner. if the bus driver had time to honk the horn, he could have had time to put his foot on the break. what happened has happened , i have learned from my mistake so everyone can stop arguing over other peoples comments and leave it. the main thing is no one got seriously injured. so you can all stop judging from a person has sent in that was not involved in the accident.

Most of the comments were about your friends trying to argue that you were not at fault, I believe. I’m sure they had good intentions, but there’s always two parties involved and by trying to clear you of any blame, they were pointing the finger at the bus driver, who was quite obviously unable to avoid this accident.

None of us are perfect drivers and I’ve had some pretty stupid bingles (minor) by not paying enough attention. I learnt from them and I try hard not to make the same mistakes.

I hope you do the same. Time to move on indeed. πŸ™‚

Best thread ever.

12345 said :

sorry “brake” .

alright i get what your saying. the last thing i remember was i stationary. yeah i realise they are a much bigger vehicle and cannot slow down as quick as a smaller car can. but no i did not see the bus and try to beat it because im not that stupid.

I hope you saw the bus though.

i was in the car and my favourtie moment was when Becs McChicken Burger went all over Sarah

I think they should make it like a railroad crossing, with a boom arm and a ding-ding-ding and everything. It’ll make Canberra feel like a real city since it’s the closest we’re going to come to a rail system…

Classified said :

12345 said :

here is the driver of the car speaking.. yes i know it probably was my fault, i am sure none of you are perfect drivers and have miss judged at some point. but what has been said is not right, if i “tried to get across before the bus” wouldn’t it have hit my door like being T boned? i obviously was sticking out a little bit which is why it hit the front right hand corner. if the bus driver had time to honk the horn, he could have had time to put his foot on the break. what happened has happened , i have learned from my mistake so everyone can stop arguing over other peoples comments and leave it. the main thing is no one got seriously injured. so you can all stop judging from a person has sent in that was not involved in the accident.

That’s a good response.

You’re right in that it was good no-one was hurt. Chalk it up to experience and get with life.

Get ON with life… duh…

12345 said :

here is the driver of the car speaking.. yes i know it probably was my fault, i am sure none of you are perfect drivers and have miss judged at some point. but what has been said is not right, if i “tried to get across before the bus” wouldn’t it have hit my door like being T boned? i obviously was sticking out a little bit which is why it hit the front right hand corner. if the bus driver had time to honk the horn, he could have had time to put his foot on the break. what happened has happened , i have learned from my mistake so everyone can stop arguing over other peoples comments and leave it. the main thing is no one got seriously injured. so you can all stop judging from a person has sent in that was not involved in the accident.

That’s a good response.

You’re right in that it was good no-one was hurt. Chalk it up to experience and get with life.

sorry “brake” .

alright i get what your saying. the last thing i remember was i stationary. yeah i realise they are a much bigger vehicle and cannot slow down as quick as a smaller car can. but no i did not see the bus and try to beat it because im not that stupid.

screaming banshee8:17 pm 07 Oct 11

12345 said :

break

Brake.

I dispute your logic, if you had tried to get across in front of the bus the question of where it would strike is not pre-determined but a result of the difference between how much time you thought you had and how much time you actually had, as determined by each vehicles relative speed and distance from the intersection.

Perhaps you can also take from this incident an understanding that heavy vehicles are in no way able to stop as quickly as your passenger vehicle, something that needs to be given consideration in all aspects of driving. On top of this a bus as a passenger vehicle has the potential to cause more personal injury as a result of emergency braking than collecting a vehicle under the circumstances shown above.

Finally, it is possible to brake and use your horn at the same time.

here is the driver of the car speaking.. yes i know it probably was my fault, i am sure none of you are perfect drivers and have miss judged at some point. but what has been said is not right, if i “tried to get across before the bus” wouldn’t it have hit my door like being T boned? i obviously was sticking out a little bit which is why it hit the front right hand corner. if the bus driver had time to honk the horn, he could have had time to put his foot on the break. what happened has happened , i have learned from my mistake so everyone can stop arguing over other peoples comments and leave it. the main thing is no one got seriously injured. so you can all stop judging from a person has sent in that was not involved in the accident.

Henry82 said :

krystal_moon282 said :

notice anything odd, oh like the fact that the car was stationary, or the bus is only damaged on the very side, and the cars complete front end is damaged..

yeah, and? are you implying she pulled out, stalled the car, then the bus driver saw her from hundreds of meters away and accelerated to “finish” her off? You have to be joking. Seriously, tell us the truth.

It says somewhere else that she tried to reverse. As if that makes it alright. “Oops, I ignored the give way sign but I tried to reverse!” Just not fast enough, obviously. Some more practice on gear shifting may be needed. Though I would probably concentrate on making sure you look at signs, lines and oncoming traffic before entering an intersection.

I usually can have sympathy for people who make mistakes in traffic because we are all just human. But if they refuse to admit that they’re at fault, that’s when I think they deserved to have their car turned into scrap metal.

el said :

One main difference is that ‘bussie’ will probably get to view the video footage from the bus and see exactly what happened πŸ™‚

I think they’ll save it for the Xmas party gag reel πŸ™‚

This post is cracking me up !!

Oh leave her alone she’s on her P’s and 17. Geez I remember when I was 17 and no way in hell was I a cautious driver.

Whoever suggested this should be a roundabout is an idiot. Have you ever been on a bus when they try to drive over teeny roundabouts ??

Finally to all the 17 year olds defending their friend. The bus had right of way. You were at a give way sign. The accident is your fault. πŸ™‚ case closed.

Oh and PS learn how to proof read and spell ! Geez if you can’t get the basics right how’d you get a licence. Scary thoughts

krystal_moon282 said :

notice anything odd, oh like the fact that the car was stationary, or the bus is only damaged on the very side, and the cars complete front end is damaged..

yeah, and? are you implying she pulled out, stalled the car, then the bus driver saw her from hundreds of meters away and accelerated to “finish” her off? You have to be joking. Seriously, tell us the truth.

krystal_moon282 said :

I know this person personally, and I know that she is an extreamly careful driver,

Case closed then, shes a careful driver.

oh, and extremely is spelt without an a

krystal_moon282 said :

because I have first hand knowledge about what happened, and I am damn sure going to believe the driver over some person who took a picture because there was an accident and went and told the world without even having the proper knowledge.

Tell us exactly what happened then? If you know “the truth” then tell us?

krystal_moon282 said :

The people that sit here saying they should hand in their license, what if that were your daughter, son, best friend etc. bet you wouldn’t be saying anything then hey?.

No actually, if i was their parents i’d revoke them driving alone, and go driving with them (on back streets) to refine their skills, because they obviously don’t have the capacity to drive safely. My brother and I regularly go driving together, we discuss techniques or skills we’ve picked up on the road and point out any faults in each others driving (constructive criticism).

MonarchRepublic12:08 pm 07 Oct 11

ML-585 said :

A few times I’ve seen cars blindly follow the car in front across this intersection. ……………. A STOP sign would be better and it should remove the confusion some people have.

That is assuming people actually stopped at the stop sign. When cars are queued at a stop sign, so often I see the first person stop, but then each car behind ‘blindly follow the car infront’ without stopping. In this scenario, yes, the driver would be penalised, but don’t know that it would stop the accidents in the first place!

A few times I’ve seen cars blindly follow the car in front across this intersection. The first car has a sufficient gap but the second car may not. Which is exactly the scenario that the OP states happened here. Also I’ve noticed some drivers only expect buses to be coming from one direction and don’t even notice buses exiting the station.

Obviously the larger signage and speed hump hasn’t helped. A STOP sign would be better and it should remove the confusion some people have. Closing the intersection would be the best solution since whoever designed/paid for these road modifications were too cheap to build an underpass, which is what it should really have.

As for the earlier comment about buses “speeding” up the hill – the speed limit up the hill is 50km/h.

Hope the chick was insured, buses sure don’t sound cheap to fix.

Ahhh this is quickly turning into a funny thread. About five posts defending the driver yet they still refuse to say what the story is.

And sorry, if people realised that the road is a place where a simple woopsy can kill people the road would be a better place. I wish people would drive with this in mind and how it can effect the families of people involved.

LootenPlunder9:07 am 07 Oct 11

Jim Jones said :

OMG the internets are totes attacking an innocent girl

Ha ha. Careful, the teen alliance will, like, sooo gang up on you and post slanderous things about you all over Facebook!

maybe the driver and her cronies and give a clear X marks the spot on the map link posted above. Girl’s car at point X trying to get to point Y (show us with an arrow). Bus driver coming from point A and attempting to get to point B.

Then, we can work out for ourselves who was where and went in front of who. You kids have not done anything to prove your friend did not cross through a give way section in front of an oncoming bus. If she did, just explain how. She may be a wonderful careful driver – but on the information provided, it also looks like she cocked it up big time. If not, then show us how she didn’t….

krystal_moon282 said :

To all the people out there being to the young girl, did any of you happen to notice anything odd, oh like the fact that the car was stationary, or the bus is only damaged on the very side, and the cars complete front end is damaged. I know this person personally, and I know that she is an extreamly careful driver, and not the fact that this intersection confused the hell out of me on the exact same day, I don’t see how so many people can be so negative towards the situation, the person reporting this also needs to get some facts straight, because I have first hand knowledge about what happened, and I am damn sure going to believe the driver over some person who took a picture because there was an accident and went and told the world without even having the proper knowledge. The people that sit here saying they should hand in their license, what if that were your daughter, son, best friend etc. bet you wouldn’t be saying anything then hey?.

The issue seems to be that the supposed facts of the driver (from account of “first hand knowldge friends”) don’t match up with how the damage IS on the car and the bus. It’s all well and good to defend your friend, but I can guarantee her version of the truth isn’t the actual truth!

I’m fascinated by why people feel the need to defend themselves or their friends vigorously (and often aggressively) against anonymous comments by some random anonymous people about some other anonymous person on an internet forum that might get read by a few thousand anonymous people.

krystal_moon2825:34 am 07 Oct 11

To all the people out there being to the young girl, did any of you happen to notice anything odd, oh like the fact that the car was stationary, or the bus is only damaged on the very side, and the cars complete front end is damaged. I know this person personally, and I know that she is an extreamly careful driver, and not the fact that this intersection confused the hell out of me on the exact same day, I don’t see how so many people can be so negative towards the situation, the person reporting this also needs to get some facts straight, because I have first hand knowledge about what happened, and I am damn sure going to believe the driver over some person who took a picture because there was an accident and went and told the world without even having the proper knowledge. The people that sit here saying they should hand in their license, what if that were your daughter, son, best friend etc. bet you wouldn’t be saying anything then hey?.

gazket said :

who ever designed that intersection needs to be sacked and go back to planning school..

why? That road (for the cars) is the minor road of the intersection. You should give way anyway.

Its basically like a right turn at a T intersection (except you “have” to go to the left lane). I assume you give way at T intersections?

el said :

Ryan said :

Looking at reply #45 where the user named ‘bussie’ mentions that the bus driver is their colleague, I’m going to go ahead and put two and two together and toss out the wild assumption that perhaps bussie is in fact a bus driver, and has spoken to the driver involved.

Pretty sure that puts him in essentially the same situation as you. You’ve both familiar with one party who was involved in the accident – you know the car driver, bussie knows the bus driver.

One main difference is that ‘bussie’ will probably get to view the video footage from the bus and see exactly what happened πŸ™‚

1810 said :

she is a 17 year old girl thats on her P’s give her a break

So less than 12 months ago this girl passed both the theory and practical tests to acquire her driver’s licence?

Guess she must’ve forgotten a few things since then, judging by the pair of almost comically-sized ‘GIVE WAY’ signs she drove through at the intersection in question.

Thankfully no one was seriously injured – this could’ve ended much, much worse for those in the car.

the main problem is the design turning off Cohen st you see a straight through road and look past or through the give way signs at on coming traffic thinking they have to turn right in front of you and therefore have to give way to you . I can see how it would confuse people who don’t use that road very often.

who ever designed that intersection needs to be sacked and go back to planning school. The way the intersection is designed the buses crossing should have to give way. The bus drivers and Action buses must know how bad it is and anticipate cars are not going to give way and be prepared to stop. It needs a roundabout at minimum preferably a set of lights that are in sinc with the Cohen street lights .

Ryan said :

Looking at reply #45 where the user named ‘bussie’ mentions that the bus driver is their colleague, I’m going to go ahead and put two and two together and toss out the wild assumption that perhaps bussie is in fact a bus driver, and has spoken to the driver involved.

Pretty sure that puts him in essentially the same situation as you. You’ve both familiar with one party who was involved in the accident – you know the car driver, bussie knows the bus driver.

One main difference is that ‘bussie’ will probably get to view the video footage from the bus and see exactly what happened πŸ™‚

1810 said :

she is a 17 year old girl thats on her P’s give her a break

So less than 12 months ago this girl passed both the theory and practical tests to acquire her driver’s licence?

Guess she must’ve forgotten a few things since then, judging by the pair of almost comically-sized ‘GIVE WAY’ signs she drove through at the intersection in question.

Thankfully no one was seriously injured – this could’ve ended much, much worse for those in the car.

How can anyone facing give way signs assume they have right of way? Does the “GIVE WAY” sign not give the game away? What about the white line across the lane that you’re in? What about the bright orange/red bus lane passing across in front of you?

People need to spend more time thinking about their driving and less time thinking about their crotch itch. If it takes a few dozen accidents at this intersection to wake people up, that’s what it takes. You shouldn’t be looking at the carpark thinking about where you’re going to be parking, when you have an intersection to cross in order to get there.

Driving on autopilot with brain switched of is NEVER OKAY, m’kay?

Bussie said :

sophie123 said :

This story is unfortunately completely wrong.
Firstly, the driver was a P-plater. This I see, has not been mentioned.
The driver also did not try and beat the bus, they actually rolled a fraction backwards in worry that the bus was going to hit them, which it obviously did.
So to all you people commenting, how about people understand the story of what has happened before saying the 17-year old driver should hand in their liscence and commenting on their driving.

P-plates and a too little too late backwards roll does not excuse your friend (or was it you Sophie?) from what is clearly incompetent driving. If you can’t see a 12×2.5x3m bus when it’s about to hit you you shouldn’t be driving. I’m not sure you should even be dressing yourself with such a demostrably low level of physical competence.

It’s not the first accident at that intersection. There was another bus/car smash there about 6 months ago. I’ve had several near misses there and so have all of my colleagues who I’ve talked to about that intersection. I tend to have a finger ready on the horn when I’m going through there.

A smarter design IMHO would have been to have the bus stop on the new part of Cohen St just off Lathlain St with no cars allowed through at all. Cars managed fine without the Cohen St extension for the first 30-odd years of Belconnen Mall’s existence.

I’m sure the other driver is at fault but…… and it’s just a suggestion…. if you have a foot over the brake, rather than a finger on the horn, you are more likely to avoid such an accident.

1810 said :

Whoever this bussie kid is you need to stop to you werent there and at the moment its your ‘friends’ word against the police and the driver.

Looking at reply #45 where the user named ‘bussie’ mentions that the bus driver is their colleague, I’m going to go ahead and put two and two together and toss out the wild assumption that perhaps bussie is in fact a bus driver, and has spoken to the driver involved.

Pretty sure that puts him in essentially the same situation as you. You’ve both familiar with one party who was involved in the accident – you know the car driver, bussie knows the bus driver.

screaming banshee8:09 pm 06 Oct 11

I’m going to speculate that there is a mark on the red zone of the intersection which would have resulted from the impact and sideways movement of the car’s front tyres – highlighted in the image if it works

[IMG]http://i53.tinypic.com/2q9gow9.jpg[/IMG]

Of course there is a possibility that that mark is not a tyre mark or not from that incident. If that is the case then why is the car shown forward of the give way line?

Oh and….

1810 said :

…doesnt even no the full story…

“No” is what your parent/s should have told you more. You wanted “Know”, but you’re (thats right, not “your”) probably still shaken up after your little mishap.

1810 said :

All of you need to stop at least no one was hurt thats all that matter. Whoever this bussie kid is you need to stop to you werent there and at the moment its your ‘friends’ word against the police and the driver. the police no what happened and have told the driver not to worry about what people are saying on the internet because they no what really happened and you dont!

This “bussie kid” is an ACTION bus driver and sadly, little boy or girl, it’s a long time since I’ve been a kid. Buses have video cameras, unlike you they don’t lie.

If it’s not your friend’s fault please tell us how exactly it could be the bus driver’s fault. The give way sign is on the direction the cars are coming from. There is no give way sign for buses leaving or entering the station. Therefore the simplest explanation is that your friend drove through the give way sign without giving way to the rather large vehicle that she should have given way to.

1810 said :

All of you need to stop at least no one was hurt thats all that matter. Whoever this bussie kid is you need to stop to you werent there and at the moment its your ‘friends’ word against the police and the driver. the police no what happened and have told the driver not to worry about what people are saying on the internet because they no what really happened and you dont!

I have no idea what you just said.

AlpineViper said :

The problem with the intersection is that is completely unintuitive.

In most situations I can think of, traffic turning at a cross intersection must give way to traffic travelling ahead. Or if you think of the interchange as a kind of parking area, traffic on the road has right of way over traffic turning into/out of the interchange. It doesnt matter how many give way signs you throw at it, people’s very first instinct (thats instinct, before thinking enters the equation) at that intersection will be that they have right of way over the bus.

Theres a usability principle that you don’t make your user think, but rely on previously ingraned behaviour to improve flow and experience. Granted, it’s a web design principle, but I think it applys pretty well to designing any system that other people will need to use.

In this case, you’ve flipped the usual rule on it’s head. The give way signs, red patch of road, etc, elict in a first time user a mindset of “wait, wot?”. You then get the slow down, maybe go again, slow, while they figure out these new rules that their ingrained (and trained) behaviour is resisting. At best, they screw up the flow of traffic. At worst, they drive in front of a bus.

Additionally, no driver is ever fully switched on 100% of the time. Sad, but true. I believe that road design needs to account for that as best as possible. If someone is acting on auto-pilot at this intersection and assume they have the right of way, they are likely to run into grief.

Yes, this car was obviously in the wrong. But the whole thing could have been avoided in the first place if the intersection didn’t go against the convention that drivers are used to.

+1

Drivers expect – and have a right to expect – consistency. When they’re confronted by the unfamiliar, “wait – what?” is a perfectly logical and reasonable reaction. Anyone who’s driven in England for the first time will know exactly what I mean. The designers need a good flogging for this one.

Bussie said :

sophie123 said :

She didn’t even attempt to beat the bus, as soon as she saw the bus she moved even further back from the line she hadn’t crossed. The bus, was to close to her. The police know this was not the drivers fault, though if all of you judgemental people want to believe a story, which someone who took photos believes, then believe it. Though, the person who was actually in the accident, which no, was not me, knows the truth.

Now I’m definitely going to seek out my workmate who was driving the bus and ask him what exactly a 17 year old girl did to him to make him drive over a gutter to smash into her car. Cos that must be what happened if it’s his fault.

Curiously, the bus driver also seemed to hit the car dead on in the front! Imagine!

All of you need to stop at least no one was hurt thats all that matter. Whoever this bussie kid is you need to stop to you werent there and at the moment its your ‘friends’ word against the police and the driver. the police no what happened and have told the driver not to worry about what people are saying on the internet because they no what really happened and you dont!

sophie123 said :

She didn’t even attempt to beat the bus, as soon as she saw the bus she moved even further back from the line she hadn’t crossed. The bus, was to close to her. The police know this was not the drivers fault, though if all of you judgemental people want to believe a story, which someone who took photos believes, then believe it. Though, the person who was actually in the accident, which no, was not me, knows the truth.

Now I’m definitely going to seek out my workmate who was driving the bus and ask him what exactly a 17 year old girl did to him to make him drive over a gutter to smash into her car. Cos that must be what happened if it’s his fault.

do tell us then what happened Sophie. Given you weren’t there either but happen to know the truth….

OMG the internets are totes attacking an innocent girl

1810 said :

I dont think any of you have the right to say what you think the driver did and didnt do! not one of you were there and none of you saw it! not one of you have heard the full story or no exactly what happened so stop passing judgement. she is a 17 year old girl thats on her P’s give her a break

Welcome to how the grown ups live. Screw up in a car and things get broken. At least no-one was hurt.

She didn’t even attempt to beat the bus, as soon as she saw the bus she moved even further back from the line she hadn’t crossed. The bus, was to close to her. The police know this was not the drivers fault, though if all of you judgemental people want to believe a story, which someone who took photos believes, then believe it. Though, the person who was actually in the accident, which no, was not me, knows the truth.

It doesnt matter if its a girl or a boy thats not the point. The point is that the person that posted the photo doesnt even no the full story or what really happened and neither do any of you.

sophie123 said :

It was not myself, but a person I do know.
The accident was not the drivers fault as it has been put out to be, if the driver had attempted to beat the bus, would it not have hit the car door?
Before you judge something, which you have read online, learn the facts.

Maybe I’ve talked to my colleague who was driving the bus. Did you think of that Little Miss Smartypants?

So the car accelerated all on its own? I can’t think of any other circumstance in which the smash wasn’t your BFF’s fault.

1810 said :

not one of you were there and none of you saw it! not one of you have heard the full story or no exactly what happened so stop passing judgement.

No, but the OP was, and witnessed what happened. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to work out who was at fault, particularly when it’s one way for public traffic and has 3 give way signs. Please, tell us any plausible situation where it’s the bus drivers fault?

1810 said :

she is a 17 year old girl thats on her P’s give her a break

Correct me if i’m wrong, but part of the test requirements is to understand the signs, such as “give way” or “stop”. These are fundamentals of driving, and if she can’t understand them, she shouldn’t be on the road. Being 17 or a P plater has nothing to do with it, the same argument applies to someone who is 40, or 80 years old.

sophie123 said :

It was not myself, but a person I do know.
The accident was not the drivers fault as it has been put out to be, if the driver had attempted to beat the bus, would it not have hit the car door?
Before you judge something, which you have read online, learn the facts.

So tell us these facts?

1810 said :

I dont think any of you have the right to say what you think the driver did and didnt do! not one of you were there and none of you saw it! not one of you have heard the full story or no exactly what happened so stop passing judgement. she is a 17 year old girl thats on her P’s give her a break

Yeah, all female P-platers are automatically absolved from any responsibility.

It was not myself, but a person I do know.
The accident was not the drivers fault as it has been put out to be, if the driver had attempted to beat the bus, would it not have hit the car door?
Before you judge something, which you have read online, learn the facts.

Thoroughly Smashed3:57 pm 06 Oct 11

sophie123 said :

This story is unfortunately completely wrong.
Firstly, the driver was a P-plater. This I see, has not been mentioned.
The driver also did not try and beat the bus, they actually rolled a fraction backwards in worry that the bus was going to hit them, which it obviously did.
So to all you people commenting, how about people understand the story of what has happened before saying the 17-year old driver should hand in their liscence and commenting on their driving.

I don’t understand what you think has changed. A driver failed to observe the give way condition and got collected by something much larger. Lesson learned hopefully.

I dont think any of you have the right to say what you think the driver did and didnt do! not one of you were there and none of you saw it! not one of you have heard the full story or no exactly what happened so stop passing judgement. she is a 17 year old girl thats on her P’s give her a break

sophie123 said :

This story is unfortunately completely wrong.
Firstly, the driver was a P-plater. This I see, has not been mentioned.
The driver also did not try and beat the bus, they actually rolled a fraction backwards in worry that the bus was going to hit them, which it obviously did.
So to all you people commenting, how about people understand the story of what has happened before saying the 17-year old driver should hand in their liscence and commenting on their driving.

P-plates and a too little too late backwards roll does not excuse your friend (or was it you Sophie?) from what is clearly incompetent driving. If you can’t see a 12×2.5x3m bus when it’s about to hit you you shouldn’t be driving. I’m not sure you should even be dressing yourself with such a demostrably low level of physical competence.

It’s not the first accident at that intersection. There was another bus/car smash there about 6 months ago. I’ve had several near misses there and so have all of my colleagues who I’ve talked to about that intersection. I tend to have a finger ready on the horn when I’m going through there.

A smarter design IMHO would have been to have the bus stop on the new part of Cohen St just off Lathlain St with no cars allowed through at all. Cars managed fine without the Cohen St extension for the first 30-odd years of Belconnen Mall’s existence.

sophie? Did or did not the driver go through a give way? Did they or did they not see a bus almost on top of them? Was it their fault the collision happened?

A p plate licence has nothing to do with it (unless you go with all the generalisations out there that p platers obviously can’t drive). Or do you mean that because she’s a p plater, and therefore inexperienced, she should get cut some slack?

You shouldn’t hold a licence if you’re not safe when driving.

sophie123 said :

The driver also did not try and beat the bus, they actually rolled a fraction backwards in worry that the bus was going to hit them, which it obviously did.

So like…. the driver entered the intersection without giving way, then realised they couldn’t make it through. Is that what you’re trying to say?

This story is unfortunately completely wrong.
Firstly, the driver was a P-plater. This I see, has not been mentioned.
The driver also did not try and beat the bus, they actually rolled a fraction backwards in worry that the bus was going to hit them, which it obviously did.
So to all you people commenting, how about people understand the story of what has happened before saying the 17-year old driver should hand in their liscence and commenting on their driving.

LootenPlunder11:54 am 06 Oct 11

Yes, those Action buses really are a hazard… they’re camouflaged so well. They should paint them a bright colour to make them easier to see. Like bright green and orange or something.

Thoroughly Smashed11:43 am 06 Oct 11

AlpineViper said :

The problem with the intersection is that is completely unintuitive.

There’s a give way sign, a give way line, the words “give way” are painted on the road, and a speed cushion. It’s not that hard.

And the description given by Caitlin suggests nothing more than incredible stupidity on the part of the car driver.

Mysteryman said :

I’ve had numerous passengers ask the usual, “what the hell?”, “are we allowed to drive down here?”, “what kind of stupid intersection is this?”.

Thank god they’re not driving then! (perhaps you can encourage them to hand in their licenses?) Seriously we can’t design all roads to be perfect 4 way crossroads.

The only suggestion i can make on that road is repainting the middle section black, or spray-painting arrows on the road. The other idea would be to have some compulsory problems that require common sense when everyone renews their license. Something basic like punching shapes through corresponding hole with a little plastic hammer.

Rawhide Kid Part310:53 am 06 Oct 11

Keijidosha said :

I’ll concede that the entire Wesfield bus stop/interchange is pretty poorly designed for passengers and traffic, but anyone who is confused by this intersection should head down to the nearest Government shopfront and surrender their licence.

On a similar note, the number of Canberra drivers I see who are baffled by 4-way unsignalled intersections is both astounding and disturbing.

I’ve just been told that this is not an interchange. Only a bus stop . The interchange is still where the original one was.

Rawhide Kid Part310:43 am 06 Oct 11

Henry82 said :

Ian said :

I actually think its quite simple. You give way to any buses you see.

What he said.

Plus those give way signs look abnormally large, im quite surprised somebody can miss them. They won’t, but it would be nice if they (the car owner) got a fine for negligent driving.

I think they will if the car did go through the Give Way sign and made contact with the Bus.

The problem with the intersection is that is completely unintuitive.

In most situations I can think of, traffic turning at a cross intersection must give way to traffic travelling ahead. Or if you think of the interchange as a kind of parking area, traffic on the road has right of way over traffic turning into/out of the interchange. It doesnt matter how many give way signs you throw at it, people’s very first instinct (thats instinct, before thinking enters the equation) at that intersection will be that they have right of way over the bus.

Theres a usability principle that you don’t make your user think, but rely on previously ingraned behaviour to improve flow and experience. Granted, it’s a web design principle, but I think it applys pretty well to designing any system that other people will need to use.

In this case, you’ve flipped the usual rule on it’s head. The give way signs, red patch of road, etc, elict in a first time user a mindset of “wait, wot?”. You then get the slow down, maybe go again, slow, while they figure out these new rules that their ingrained (and trained) behaviour is resisting. At best, they screw up the flow of traffic. At worst, they drive in front of a bus.

Additionally, no driver is ever fully switched on 100% of the time. Sad, but true. I believe that road design needs to account for that as best as possible. If someone is acting on auto-pilot at this intersection and assume they have the right of way, they are likely to run into grief.

Yes, this car was obviously in the wrong. But the whole thing could have been avoided in the first place if the intersection didn’t go against the convention that drivers are used to.

Keijidosha said :

I’ll concede that the entire Wesfield bus stop/interchange is pretty poorly designed for passengers and traffic, but anyone who is confused by this intersection should head down to the nearest Government shopfront and surrender their licence.

I totally agree, when I am confronted with an intersection that confuses me I slow down and then stop if required. This intersection is pretty easy though. You have a giant red lane that intersects your road. Without any other signage I would take it you need to stop for the big red lane. I have no idea what the red means but it isn’t normal so it must be important to give way.

Intersections with more than two stop signs messed with me the first time I saw one so surprisingly I came to a stop then thought about it and proceeded. The general rule of give way to your right works well like on a roundabout works well.

Mysteryman said :

One of the biggest problems is that it doesn’t look like a normal intersection. The giant red markings on the road combined with the strange speed hump and one way nature of the street makes it confusing. I’ve had numerous passengers ask the usual, “what the hell?”, “are we allowed to drive down here?”, “what kind of stupid intersection is this?”.

^— this

Of course, everyone here on RA is well above average in driving competence. We’re not the problem. Has the driver involved made a post/comment here? See?
The gummint (rightly or wrongly) habitually caters to the lowest common denominator. This intersection fails in that regard.

Posted give way sign, a massive ‘give way’ printed on road and a dotted line across the road. The driver must have been sleeping at the wheel.

there are also (clearly obvious in first photo) huge letters on the road that spell out “G-I-V-E W-A-Y”… in case a driver misses the oversize signs either side… and they are right behind a speed hump… I don’t recall what the signs above the Give Way signs says, but I think it is about buses…

arescarti42 said :

Gerry-Built said :

…all the signage in the world isn’t going to stop accidents there… it is a very confusing intersection to approach, what; with all the give way signs and big red patch on the road, it’s hard to work out who should go first. And it is only a huge bus you risk hitting if you get it wrong… more needs to be done! [TFIC]

I hope that is laced with sarcasm.

’tis indeed…

It is a difficult intersection (as anything a little different is), but there is ample direction to “get it right”.

TFIC – Tongue Firmly in Cheek, not the ‘other’ meaning…

I’ll concede that the entire Wesfield bus stop/interchange is pretty poorly designed for passengers and traffic, but anyone who is confused by this intersection should head down to the nearest Government shopfront and surrender their licence.

On a similar note, the number of Canberra drivers I see who are baffled by 4-way unsignalled intersections is both astounding and disturbing.

Not a good spot for an intersection….right on a corner!

JC said :

Bloody silly intersection, which is an accident waiting to happen, especially the speed at which buses come up the hill towards the bus station. Maybe what is needed to balance things out is a speed bump on the bus lane just before the intersection, a bit like the speed bump in the car lane heading the other way.

The city planner behind it needs a kick up the arse.

tg_703 said :

JC said :

Bloody silly intersection, which is an accident waiting to happen, especially the speed at which buses come up the hill towards the bus station. Maybe what is needed to balance things out is a speed bump on the bus lane just before the intersection, a bit like the speed bump in the car lane heading the other way.

A speed hump to slow buses down? Not a good idea to slow down buses approaching an intersection when they have right of way, that causes accidents by other vehicles trying to beat the bus through the intersection. Plus, visibility of oncoming vehicles at that intersection is not obstructed, and vehicles (esp. large green and orange) are hard to miss.

From my experiences, if the intersection is approached with caution, there is ample time and opportunity to give way to buses. Inexperienced drivers may find it difficult to negotiate, however, the size and amount of signage should make it clear who has right of way.

Not to mention the effect on passengers when a bus goes over a speed hump at 50kph. I have a bad back and the unpleasantly wild ride in some buses puts me off from getting on one.

Henry82 said :

http://www.nearmap.com/?ll=-35.239104,149.064085&z=21&t=h&nmd=20110902

Honestly, what is so hard about it? You slow down, check left and right, then proceed straight? If you’re not sure where to drive, stop the car, look ahead and follow the markings on the road?

If you can’t do that, you should probably go hand your license in.

One of the biggest problems is that it doesn’t look like a normal intersection. The giant red markings on the road combined with the strange speed hump and one way nature of the street makes it confusing. I’ve had numerous passengers ask the usual, “what the hell?”, “are we allowed to drive down here?”, “what kind of stupid intersection is this?”.

Henry82 said :

Ian said :

I actually think its quite simple. You give way to any buses you see.

What he said.

Plus those give way signs look abnormally large, im quite surprised somebody can miss them. They won’t, but it would be nice if they (the car owner) got a fine for negligent driving.

There’s not one, but two large give way signs I can see in that picture. Now, if I remember my road rules correctly, unlike most people, that means that you need to give way to the cross traffic..

I hope the car driver has a insurance and a cheque book. The fine for negligent driving, plus forking out for a new car, plus paying back ACTION for breaking their almost new bus will be quite expensive.

http://www.nearmap.com/?ll=-35.239104,149.064085&z=21&t=h&nmd=20110902

Honestly, what is so hard about it? You slow down, check left and right, then proceed straight? If you’re not sure where to drive, stop the car, look ahead and follow the markings on the road?

If you can’t do that, you should probably go hand your license in.

JC said :

Bloody silly intersection, which is an accident waiting to happen, especially the speed at which buses come up the hill towards the bus station. Maybe what is needed to balance things out is a speed bump on the bus lane just before the intersection, a bit like the speed bump in the car lane heading the other way.

A speed hump to slow buses down? Not a good idea to slow down buses approaching an intersection when they have right of way, that causes accidents by other vehicles trying to beat the bus through the intersection. Plus, visibility of oncoming vehicles at that intersection is not obstructed, and vehicles (esp. large green and orange) are hard to miss.

From my experiences, if the intersection is approached with caution, there is ample time and opportunity to give way to buses. Inexperienced drivers may find it difficult to negotiate, however, the size and amount of signage should make it clear who has right of way.

Gerry-Built said :

…all the signage in the world isn’t going to stop accidents there… it is a very confusing intersection to approach, what; with all the give way signs and big red patch on the road, it’s hard to work out who should go first. And it is only a huge bus you risk hitting if you get it wrong… more needs to be done! [TFIC]

I hope that is laced with sarcasm.

JC said :

Bloody silly intersection, which is an accident waiting to happen, especially the speed at which buses come up the hill towards the bus station. Maybe what is needed to balance things out is a speed bump on the bus lane just before the intersection, a bit like the speed bump in the car lane heading the other way.

Yep. Agreed. It was only matter of time before this happened. Such a stupidly designed intersection.

Ian said :

I actually think its quite simple. You give way to any buses you see.

What he said.

Plus those give way signs look abnormally large, im quite surprised somebody can miss them. They won’t, but it would be nice if they (the car owner) got a fine for negligent driving.

This was bound to happen,

I ride past it every day and avoid crossing there with a passion (wait at the traffic lights instead of cutting across using the ‘bike path’).

I’ve driven down that way too in a car (where the accident is) and you have to be extremely careful at the junction.

At least it wasn’t a person getting hit this time! (Chan St Crossing!)

Ian said :

Gerry-Built said :

…all the signage in the world isn’t going to stop accidents there… it is a very confusing intersection to approach, what; with all the give way signs and big red patch on the road, it’s hard to work out who should go first. And it is only a huge bus you risk hitting if you get it wrong… more needs to be done! [TFIC]

I actually think its quite simple. You give way to any buses you see. They are bigger and hurt you more than you hurt them

Pretty simple, isn’t it…?

Bloody silly intersection, which is an accident waiting to happen, especially the speed at which buses come up the hill towards the bus station. Maybe what is needed to balance things out is a speed bump on the bus lane just before the intersection, a bit like the speed bump in the car lane heading the other way.

Gerry-Built said :

…all the signage in the world isn’t going to stop accidents there… it is a very confusing intersection to approach, what; with all the give way signs and big red patch on the road, it’s hard to work out who should go first. And it is only a huge bus you risk hitting if you get it wrong… more needs to be done! [TFIC]

I actually think its quite simple. You give way to any buses you see. They are bigger and hurt you more than you hurt them

How can a give way sign be confusing?? Personally I would have a stop sign there, but that still might confuse people??

Classified said :

Of course, it is a pretty silly accident.

I hope that the next accident isn’t her running over her 5 y.o. by confusing brake and gas pedal…

…all the signage in the world isn’t going to stop accidents there… it is a very confusing intersection to approach, what; with all the give way signs and big red patch on the road, it’s hard to work out who should go first. And it is only a huge bus you risk hitting if you get it wrong… more needs to be done! [TFIC]

Cars are obviously vulnerable, flippant about road rules, and have the potential to cause serious accidents. They should be banned from public roads for their own safety.

how can you not see a bloody bus right in front of you?

It’s just a car, as long as no-one was hurt that’s the main thing.

Of course, it is a pretty silly accident.

Bus 1. Car 0.

Tsk tsk tsk…

One more person that will learn what give way means I guess!

Buzz

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