ClubsACT Joins RiotACT, speaks on Food Safety

Androyd said :

Hi Jeff, welcome.
Any thoughts on how WA survives without pokies in every drinking outlet, and yet still manages to have thriving social drinking venues, money for sporting and community groups, low levels of problem gambling etc? I must say I found the whole “It’s UnAustralian” anti-pokies reform campaign by the clubs the most cynical, disingenuous exercise this side of the tobacco industry. But maybe that’s just me.

Hi there…my apologies for not replying sooner. Your question is a good one and it gets asked many times. From my perspective, it is not so much about whether you have pokies or not but more the fact that once you do have pokies and have a business where they represent a large % of your revenue, what impacts there will be on the business when that revenue is taken away. I have no doubt that Canberra would still have a club industry if there were no pokies. But by the same token, I have no doubt that significant damage will be done to the industry here if revenue from pokies was slashed and clubs are forced to change their business model too quickly. Also, clubs are and have been working hard to become less reliant on pokies revenue but this takes time.

I acknowledge your view on the advertising campaign. It wasn’t everyone’s cup of tea and I guess it wasn’t supposed to be.

Thank you again for your question and for making a reasoned argument as opposed to simply hurling abuse or being totally one eyed.

Firstly, hi Jeff, thanks for outing yourself as a face of ClubsACT and engaging in this debate, I appreciate it (although personally – the subject of pokies makes me not that big a fan of clubs in Canberra).

On the subject of food safety, I have found clubs to be generally good (although I have spent little time in their kitchens). Mostly though I wanted to say to the people bashing clubs for trying to have their say in the regulation of their industry – it is hardly unusual, and not a bad thing. Billionaire mining bosses buying entire newspaper companies so they can whitewash debate is a bad thing. A representative of a organisation engaging in public debate and having a couple of meetings with the government to put their opinions forward is hardly the same thing. The onus is on the government to consider the input but make choices for the public good.

On the question of the rigorousness of regulation, I would like to draw a parallel to road vehicle safety. A couple of days ago reached my vehicle after work to find during the day a vehicle inspector had visited and left a defect notice, as he had deemed the rear tyre to be “worn” and in need of replacing (which is was, to be fair, I was planning on doing it this week anyway, but it is annoying having it pointed out). I was given 14 days to do this or the vehicle would no longer be able to be used. Now this is one minor safety concern. Nothing has happened yet. It, at most might cause an accident that could hurt a couple of people, most likely me. But it enforced quite strictly.

I fail to see why restaurants should not be judged as swiftly and certainly – since similar minor safety concerns have the potential to hurt a lot more people.

Hi Jeff, welcome.
Any thoughts on how WA survives without pokies in every drinking outlet, and yet still manages to have thriving social drinking venues, money for sporting and community groups, low levels of problem gambling etc? I must say I found the whole “It’s UnAustralian” anti-pokies reform campaign by the clubs the most cynical, disingenuous exercise this side of the tobacco industry. But maybe that’s just me.

patrick_keogh said :

Jeff, it is interesting that you have decided to open a RiotACT front in the PR offensive on behalf of clubs in the ACT. As I am sure you know there are many participants in this forum who have serious misgivings concerning the role of licensed clubs in our society. Yes every club does some good things but there are numerous problem areas as well.

…

The growth of very large clubs and their market power can be clearly seen in your message above. I don’t ever think about the dynamic of regulation as being about a “relationship”. I don’t have a relationship with the police or the courts. They make and enforce the regulatory environment, I just obey it. Go back to your text above and substitute “traffic safety” and “police” into your text and you will see that it is a complete nonsense. I understand that you get paid to put the best possible spin on what clubs do, and to get the best outcome for the clubs but maybe it is time to step back and think about the food safety issue from the perspective of the consumer and the health system not just you employers.

Post of the year.

And Jeff – please tell us why the issue of problem gambling is so complex. I can think of at least one simple solution: limit all poker machines to 5c bets. Gamblers can enjoy their stimulation, clubs can offer their members the entertainment of poker machines, but harm will be minimised.

I’m not against gambling – I consider it like speeding, a tax on stupidity. Both can be safe under the right circumstances, but when things go wrong they go very badly wrong.

Saved in the nick of time. I was about to suggest that I would cancel my club memberships too. Not that the clubs would notice since I never put a cent into a poker machine.

But I am relieved. Jeff has been able to clear it all up for us. ACT clubs have a perfect record, have not contributed to problem gambling, have clean kitchens etc. etc. etc. so I can continue my membership.

I feel a little ashamed for ever believing anything different. Jeff, you have instructed me as to the true state of affairs and my “entrenched views” have been systematically refuted. Maybe I’ll join another club to celebrate.

aussielyn said :

Does ClubsACT have a problem with transparency?

And one other thought aussielyn about my views on transparency. My name is Jeff House and this is my account and I am using my real name.

@Maya… hear hear

It is refreshing to see someone on RiotACT who is willing to stand behind their identity and say… Hello Canberra… here are my views, my opinions and this is who I am.

Meanwhile I will quite happily make my comments (sometimes flippantly) behind my pseudonym.

I applaud Jeff for taking this step, a commendable form of transparent engagement and let us all wonder at how many other leaders in our community would be willing to engage in public debate in such a straight forward manner. Not everyone here will agree with the role of licensed clubs as patrick_keogh points out however you have gained a supporter here.

It is encouraging to see a position being taken against the punitive regulatory measures the largest industry in the ACT, continues to heap on business. The pending ‘Score on Doors’ is just another creep in regulation after a host of changes in a few short years. Too name a few… we have seen liquor fee increases, smoking bans, outdoor seating fee increases, trading hour restrictions, complex risk assessment plans, compiling alcohol data (unique to the ACT), a host of penalties from new regulation (to line the coffers) and then on top of that is the never ending paper-burden imposed by the bureaucratic machine turning service providers into administrators.

A ‘modus operandi’ that aims at a continuance of costly regulation on business will not serve to improve anything in the ACT. I am one Canberran who would like to see our City’s vibrancy bloom where regulators work proactively to encourage businesses to develop and to assist in detaching Canberra from its old stigmas.

Finally we call these people Public Servants the irony however is they forget their position exists to service this community and whilst these boring bureaucrats remain servicing their own interest… what hope does Canberra have?

aussielyn said :

The ACT Health Protection Service is understaffed and only do spot/random checks. Their job is also more difficult because of the lack of knowledge of food hygiene in the non-English speaking catering staff and high staff turnover. The healthies dread the multi-cultural festival because of the volunteers and because it is outdoors and risk prone. People who suffer from food poisoning symptoms should report them so they can act. The current campaign has been on the cards for years and will result in better standards of healthy food and improved food handling.
As most clubs contract out their catering, it is important; they monitor their standards as it could adversely affect their reputation. Club managers should possess thermometers, check fridges and bain-maries, and be aware of potential risks in food handling. Any catering business that is competent should welcome more inspections and compliance enforcement as it will get rid of the bad eggs in the industry.

Does ClubsACT have a problem with transparency?

Thank you for asking a good question. No we don’t. We have never said no to transparency. We are saying that in the interests of transparency, ACT Health should fully respond to the recommendations of the Auditor-General’s report of six months ago.

maya said :

Well done to Jeff for posting openly in this forum, from what I read on this topic there could be a few insiders lurking around posting from within their cushy government offices in health. Some of these people seem to have quite a good inside knowledge of some of these things and post quite quickly after the articles, which makes me think it’s either spin doctors or staff of the ACT departments who like to remain anonymous. They would have to be very careful about not being caught as I would think this is unethical behaviour. Doesn’t the ACT government have a code of conduct or something.

Either way, I love to eat out and it makes me mad when government incompetence is covered up like this. ClubsACT are just asking for the government to action their own Auditor Generals recommendations, I don’t see anything wrong with this. As a family member owing a non-food business in the ACT I can attest to how deficient the ACT government agencies are in so many areas we have dealt with them, I wouldn’t regard the health department as any different judging by what the Auditor has said about them. Seems like some of the posters are not understanding what the debate is about but just posting attacks instead.

Wow, maya, you’ve introduced an unsupportable conspiracy theory, and attacked the man and not the ball.

Surely this is all about food safety, and the health and wellbeing of Canberra consumers? Not a general spray about the ACT government.

I agree 87% isn’t as high as it should be devils advocate. The figure only means something relative to other states or cities. I guess the point I was trying to make was that there needs to be perspective in the debate about food safety and what’s required to improve it and ensure the public has access to information about food safety. 87% certainly isn’t 100% but it’s also not the 22% that existed in New York or roughly the 50% that existed in Toronto (two cities cited in the KPMG report on food safety). The vast majority of food outlets in Canberra do the right thing. There are a small group that clearly do not and they should feel the full force of the regulator.

The ACT Health Protection Service is understaffed and only do spot/random checks. Their job is also more difficult because of the lack of knowledge of food hygiene in the non-English speaking catering staff and high staff turnover. The healthies dread the multi-cultural festival because of the volunteers and because it is outdoors and risk prone. People who suffer from food poisoning symptoms should report them so they can act. The current campaign has been on the cards for years and will result in better standards of healthy food and improved food handling.
As most clubs contract out their catering, it is important; they monitor their standards as it could adversely affect their reputation. Club managers should possess thermometers, check fridges and bain-maries, and be aware of potential risks in food handling. Any catering business that is competent should welcome more inspections and compliance enforcement as it will get rid of the bad eggs in the industry.

Does ClubsACT have a problem with transparency?

It is interesting, isn’t it, how when there is at last some openness and transparency about the extent of bad food preparation, the business community suddenly decides to crawl out of the woodwork.

For as many years as I can remember, Canberra consumers have been asking for the fetid lid to be lifted on some fetid parts of the food industry. Until very recently, it was all outs of sight (although too often never out of mind for the victims).

Now Jeff and his friends are saying that it is all unfair; that the public should not have the transparency it now has.

Yes, Jeff, there will be some inconsistencies with the individual inspectors. For some, no doubt, 1 cockroach is too many; for others, maybe it would need a family of cockroaches before conditions are a bridge too far. Yes, it may be subjective at times. But the evidence is very clear – far too many places far well short of required standards, as shown by how quickly they all plead guilty to the charges. The evidence is overwhelming.

No amount of self-interested bleating from the industry can hide the fact that 1) this transparency was well overdue; 2) too many establishments have for too many years got away with (almost) murder; and 3) we will all be the better for shining a light in the dark, dirty, infested recesses of some of our commercial kitchens.

Well done to Jeff for posting openly in this forum, from what I read on this topic there could be a few insiders lurking around posting from within their cushy government offices in health. Some of these people seem to have quite a good inside knowledge of some of these things and post quite quickly after the articles, which makes me think it’s either spin doctors or staff of the ACT departments who like to remain anonymous. They would have to be very careful about not being caught as I would think this is unethical behaviour. Doesn’t the ACT government have a code of conduct or something.

Either way, I love to eat out and it makes me mad when government incompetence is covered up like this. ClubsACT are just asking for the government to action their own Auditor Generals recommendations, I don’t see anything wrong with this. As a family member owing a non-food business in the ACT I can attest to how deficient the ACT government agencies are in so many areas we have dealt with them, I wouldn’t regard the health department as any different judging by what the Auditor has said about them. Seems like some of the posters are not understanding what the debate is about but just posting attacks instead.

87% doesn’t seem like a high compliance rate.

While I understand you can’t translate this statistic into a probability for any given business: if you said to me each time I went to eat somewhere “on average you have a 13 per cent chance of getting sick after eating here” well that would concern me.

I have no idea whether the probability changes in relation to price point (i.e. I don’t know if I can protect myself by going to more up-market eateries) or in relation to specific types of food (is sashimi more risky?).

And this is coming from someone with a relatively “cast iron” stomach. I’d had to be someone who is susceptible to food poisoning.

ClubsACT said :

Problem gambling is an incredibly complex issue…

JH

What an absolute load of cr@p. You put in place endless rows of machines which are designed to suck money out of people and then try to tell us that this is somehow mitigated by a pittance of that money going back to the community through the clubs. You’re feeding on the more succeptible members of society and try to hide it behind the benefit clubs can bring to the community.

On another note, I’d actually like to thank you for bringing up this issue. Aside from my rant above, you’ve caused me to think about this issue in a little more detail and I can now happily cancel my membership to the various clubs I’m a member of to avoid any form of tacit support to the organisations you represent.

#3 Zan made a very good point….Food safety should not only cover the cleanliness of kitchens and proper handling of food. It should also cover the personal hygiene of all staff involved. There is no good making them clean their kitchens if they don’t wash their hands after going to the toilet, is there?

In addition to staff observing healthy practices I think some customers need to be reminded of safe food handling techniques, particularly in relation to salad bars. Letting a tissue fall out of your sleeve onto the food and returning tissue to same sleeve is not very hygenic.

I witnessed this happening at a club and reported it to staff who immediately replaced the bowl of food. The customer’s main concern was removing the beetroot stain from her white cardigan.

My experience is that people often have entrenched views which are rarely changed by debate and discussion so far from being a PR offensive, this is about engaging in the debate and putting our point of view whichwe are of course entitled to do.

Problem gambling is an incredibly complex issue and won’t be solved on this site. There are a range of comorbidities which are involved when people are addicted to gambling. However, I will state my view that I support measures which create an atmosphere where problem gamblers feel more confident in self-identifying. I also support more effective identification of problem gamblers so they can be excluded from all gambling venues and referred to counselling to overcome their addictions. I also believe the exponential growth of online gambling should receive more attention than it does.

In terms of the issue of live music, I think the dramatic increases in public liability insurance premiums and noise issues resulting from the trend towards inner city living where long-time well established live music venues have been shut down because all of a sudden there’s residential development right next door have had more to do with the decline in live music than clubs. I used to enjoy live music at the Wig n Pen and I guarantee that it wasn’t licensed clubs that stopped it there – it was public liability insurance premiums. But you can go to Edgars in Ainslie or Suburban in Dickson on weekends in the warmer months and be treated to fantastic live music.

In terms of food safety, this is simply about ensuring that HPS respond to the Auditor-General’s report’s recommendations. Moreover, I do agree with the Auditor-General that HPS should spend more time proactively working with venues to improve and maintain food safety as opposed to spending all their time responding to complaints (without of course suggesting that they don’t respond to complaints). And yes, it is about looking at this from a consumer’s perspective. I’ll let the Auditor-General’s words speak for themselves:

“The Health Protection Service has a reactive approach to monitoring non-compliance and in the longer term this may compromise food safety”.

And 54-11, at no stage have we ever suggested that inspectors shouldn’t be doing their job. But we want that job done consistently and fairly. Again, I’ll let the Auditor-General speak for herself:

“Health Protection Service had not developed formal policies and procedures to guide staff in implementing enforcement actions. This contributed to staff adopting different work practices…This is undersirable in a work environment focused on legislative compliance”.

All the quotes are from pages 5-8 of the Auditor-General’s report. I would encourage anyone interested in this debate to read that report.

JH

54-11 said :

I’m a mmber of quite a few clubs and fairly regularly make “voluntary donation”, and eat in many of the clubs and make use of their facilities.

But as a club member, I do not support or condone this campaign by Clubs ACT et al. For far too long, some establishments in Canberra have been putting our health at risk. I have suffered a very bad bout of food poisoning and it is very far from pleasant. The dtails are too graphic to describe!

I fully support what the government is doing. It is all about safety of the public, and I have no doubt that ED and other parts of the health system will be very grateful for the drop-off in people presenting with ill-effects.

These closures are not for “minor breaches”, as one previous RA contributor tried to claim. These closures are for repeated, serious, deliberate and dangerous food storage issues.

Jeff, let the inspectors do their job, for the benefit of us all.

I completely agree with this message, with the added bonus of one of the two times I got food poisoning it was attributed by the powers that be as probably from eating at an ACT club. Since ClubsACT (and other club groups, like ClubsNSW) have become so political, I have decided not to renew my club memberships as they come due. A reasonable proportion of people I know have done the same thing. Maybe you need to actually consider what your members (and the community as a whole) think about your new political career.

Food safety should not only cover the cleanliness of kitchens and proper handling of food. It should also cover the personal hygiene of all staff involved. There is no good making them clean their kitchens if they don’t wash their hands after going to the toilet, is there?

I’m a mmber of quite a few clubs and fairly regularly make “voluntary donation”, and eat in many of the clubs and make use of their facilities.

But as a club member, I do not support or condone this campaign by Clubs ACT et al. For far too long, some establishments in Canberra have been putting our health at risk. I have suffered a very bad bout of food poisoning and it is very far from pleasant. The dtails are too graphic to describe!

I fully support what the government is doing. It is all about safety of the public, and I have no doubt that ED and other parts of the health system will be very grateful for the drop-off in people presenting with ill-effects.

These closures are not for “minor breaches”, as one previous RA contributor tried to claim. These closures are for repeated, serious, deliberate and dangerous food storage issues.

Jeff, let the inspectors do their job, for the benefit of us all.

Jeff, it is interesting that you have decided to open a RiotACT front in the PR offensive on behalf of clubs in the ACT. As I am sure you know there are many participants in this forum who have serious misgivings concerning the role of licensed clubs in our society. Yes every club does some good things but there are numerous problem areas as well.

Clearly first amongst these is problem gambling. Please don’t bother to respond by telling us everything that clubs do to mitigate this, we know. It is clear that these steps are only necessary because clubs are more part of the problem than they are part of the solution. The original intent of clubs (set up for the mutual benefits of members) has been compromised to the extent that many clubs appear to be set up for the members to support the club, not vice versa.

Second is the role that clubs have played in killing off smaller venues. The “lowest common denominator” entertainment that most clubs offer together with the subsidy flowing from the one arm bandits has sucked the life blood out the small pub live music scene that has been IMHO an important part of Australian culture. The reduction in competition in the clubs market has only made this problem worse.

The growth of very large clubs and their market power can be clearly seen in your message above. I don’t ever think about the dynamic of regulation as being about a “relationship”. I don’t have a relationship with the police or the courts. They make and enforce the regulatory environment, I just obey it. Go back to your text above and substitute “traffic safety” and “police” into your text and you will see that it is a complete nonsense. I understand that you get paid to put the best possible spin on what clubs do, and to get the best outcome for the clubs but maybe it is time to step back and think about the food safety issue from the perspective of the consumer and the health system not just you employers.