Does the public service drive employees mad?

gentoopenguin said :

Sounds frustrating. But beware of swift judgement. Perhaps the person working from home is ill, or they have a sick family member. One of my past colleagues was working from home while their spouse died. I have also had experience of a person being off work for several months with the team not being told a thing. Not laziness, but attempted suicide. The midday starter might have their own issues, and their “I’m not a morning person” spiel might be a cover for something serious. Or not.

Now I get that I have just made excuses for your colleagues, and possibly none of them deserve it, and even if they do deserve it, your daily work life hasn’t been helped. If the impact on you is really getting to you, then use the EAP service, they can help with that kind of work issue too. You can also make a time to peak to your director privately. They might be able to reassure you that they are aware of the issues and they are doing something about it, or they may, without breaching confidentiality, be able to let you know that these staff members are doing all that is required of them.

That’s very generous of you and I have tried too in the past to think that perhaps there are legitimate reasons behind these ghost colleagues. But frankly there are too many people with high absenteeism in this one small area. The full-time work at home person has been on that wicket for three years (I’ve known of him from a previous branch) and he moves areas with the same EL2 who thinks the sun shines out his proverbial. He is earmarked by the EL2 as a “thinker” and refuses to do all the regular things that everyone is forced to (TRIM, personal development agreements etc).

The “not a morning person”, when she is there, spends 80% of her time cornering people in the kitchen or copy room for extensive one-sided conversations. So not overly productive…

As for discussing with my boss, he’s the one who eats the sandwiches and calls his lawyers all day long.

gentoopenguin said :

The area where I currently work in my agency is the absolute pits. One colleague “works from home” on a full-time basis (no 2/3 day split, no FULL TIME) and has been in the office only a handful of times since I started there last November. Another full-timer only rocks up between 11:30am and 1pm because “I am not a morning person so what’s the point?”. Another wasn’t seen for eight weeks, unknown whether they were on leave or what the deal was. Another sits in his room eating sandwiches, reading the newspaper and ringing his divorce lawyers all day.

It is all rather depressing for someone with a strong work ethic. I know some of these cases have been reported by other concerned colleagues to the relevant part of the agency that deals with absenteeism but nothing was done. Even though this people aren’t aggressive, the environment itself is highly demotivating and I can see how it would easily led some to feel stressed out, particularly the ones like me who actually work and are asked to pick up the slack from all the slackers.

Sounds frustrating. But beware of swift judgement. Perhaps the person working from home is ill, or they have a sick family member. One of my past colleagues was working from home while their spouse died. I have also had experience of a person being off work for several months with the team not being told a thing. Not laziness, but attempted suicide. The midday starter might have their own issues, and their “I’m not a morning person” spiel might be a cover for something serious. Or not.
Now I get that I have just made excuses for your colleagues, and possibly none of them deserve it, and even if they do deserve it, your daily work life hasn’t been helped. If the impact on you is really getting to you, then use the EAP service, they can help with that kind of work issue too. You can also make a time to peak to your director privately. They might be able to reassure you that they are aware of the issues and they are doing something about it, or they may, without breaching confidentiality, be able to let you know that these staff members are doing all that is required of them.

If I name each major bully from a dozen departments I would be sued, however, as a Contractor, what I am able to say, is that quite a few are reported to Dep Secs and Secretaries after HR Managers fob off the complaints or attempt blame gaming exercises to cover Departments’ ar$#s.

So…bullying EL1’s, EL2’s and Managers who are reading LSWCHPs most courageous and correct post, do not think that you are NOT being watched throughout your career….many of you have a file quite thick and one stuff up in your work, may just cost you that promotion you have been waiting on for some time.

The most challenging thing about working in the public services is that there is not much to be done if a bad apple is in the bunch (or several). It is virtually impossible to get fired in my agency, despite the many horror stories I’ve heard around the traps. The only thing management is seemingly willing to do is give bad apples glowing references and shift the problem on to an unsuspecting area. In some cases, this leads to them actually getting rewarded for their behaviour through acting positions! Although the mechanism is there, I’ve never seen nor heard of someone been underperformance managed for their behavioural issues.

The area where I currently work in my agency is the absolute pits. One colleague “works from home” on a full-time basis (no 2/3 day split, no FULL TIME) and has been in the office only a handful of times since I started there last November. Another full-timer only rocks up between 11:30am and 1pm because “I am not a morning person so what’s the point?”. Another wasn’t seen for eight weeks, unknown whether they were on leave or what the deal was. Another sits in his room eating sandwiches, reading the newspaper and ringing his divorce lawyers all day.

It is all rather depressing for someone with a strong work ethic. I know some of these cases have been reported by other concerned colleagues to the relevant part of the agency that deals with absenteeism but nothing was done. Even though this people aren’t aggressive, the environment itself is highly demotivating and I can see how it would easily led some to feel stressed out, particularly the ones like me who actually work and are asked to pick up the slack from all the slackers.

It took five years but my bully got her comeuppance – she moved to another dept during MOG changes, complained that she was being bullied by senior management, she was “restructured out” by sensible senior managers in the high-functioning dept that had inherited her, then she moved to another department …. and has since ended up at the ATO, where by all accounts she is miserable.

Leaving the APS a few years ago, I found the main change in coming to the non-government sector was an 80% reduction in ambient bullsh!t. Great to no longer have to treat irrationality from the Minister as gospel, pretend that black was white, etc.

Sorry that last post was rather long. Did not intend to write a thesis. 🙂

The last department I worked experienced an increase in bullying comlaints after severe cuts across the department and pressure on middle and senior managers to work within the budget. This led to increased pressures on lower level workers whose numbers had been cut due to failure to replace staff. There is no excuse however for the extent of bullying that goes on in some APS departments no matter the pressures. People are always responsible for their own behaviour towards others. I have heard and witnessed some events over the years but mainly my own experience has been positive.

Part of the problem is an entrenched culture of secrecy and tendency to cover up mistakes by targeting people who might complain. This has been seen with whistleblowers, public and those not made public, who trusted the internal processes. We are all wiser in hindsight.

In the last department I worked funds had been cut to operational areas so much, staff were bullied about backlogs despite protestations to management about lack of resources to do jobs well.

You have to keep a sense of humour though. It still amuses me, in better moments, the dictate that staff received that failure to attend morning tea would reflect badly in future performance reviews. Management were concerned that it looked bad when most staff stopped going to morning tea – there was too much work to get through – but in wanting to give the impression that all was fine, or business as usual, threatened staff. Can you imagine people in private enterprise being forced to go to morning tea.

The problem in part, started because the Minister responsible was sucking up funding from the department after exceeding his own budget, thus the department had to make cuts elsewhere instead of just allocating more to the ministerial budget. The real nastiness came in blaming staff or scapegoating staff for the resulting backlogs as though it was done on purpose and in spite of increased responsibilities given to lower graded staff after team leader role was not replaced. There are some sickos out there who unfortunately get promoted beyond their capability, but blame can also be attached to most HR areas who, rather than protecting staff, seek to protect their own career path with influential managers despite gross breaches of the code of conduct. The FAS responsible eventually got found out when his own line managers complained, despite the fact earlier complaints were ignored, and was (I heard) eventually ‘kicked’ out but with a nice performance bonus as well.

There are huge problems in the APS around bullying but change can only come when the culture changes and through a no tolerance approach to poor behaviour.

NoImRight said :

Or…..not. Most APS would have no impact on their day to day work regardless of who the PM is.Its somewhat unealistic to think the work practice of sometimes large Departmenst is micromanaged like that. What would be gained? Big assumption based on anecdotal evidence

Rudd was a micromanager. the observations about this are certaintly true for the central agencies, potentially true for line agencies.

No LSWCHP. I have held lots of senior positions in private industry but htought that I might lieka role in the Circus. I took a position a a level well below my capabilities as I found that it is very hard to ‘crack the code’ due to the nepotisitic way that the APS works. Being over 30 and never having worked in the Circus previously you are veiwed as being less than worthy of the great heirachical machine that is the Circus, add Aboriginal in to that and you are batting a very low average for any promotion. I have experienced the bullying and discrimintaion that is rampant in the Circus and am currently looking to go back to the private sector so that I can once again feel as though I have value and am aboe to contribute on a level that is akin to my experience and skills, (both ignored in the Circus). Yes they are depsotic, bullying,nepotists who are psychotic and I’m sure most have some form of mental illness. Unable to make a decision until some serious legal advice has been sought so they are absolved of any wrong doing. Unfortunately Australia is being run by fast track grads who are 30 or under and as one EL2 put it “I can’t wait for the efficiencly dividend to bite so we can get rid of all the people over 50 who are just doing their time until retirement”. Great attitude luv, can’t wait until some bright young thing does the same to you!

HenryBG said :

I think you’ve got your threads crossed. This isn’t the thread about throwing rocks at whores, its the thread about people who develop mental illness as a result of their jobs being too much of a bludge.

In the interests of staying OT, what is your specific mental illness and how did you acquire it?

I know of a case of bullying with an excellent outcome. The person who was being bullied complained. The bully left the APS. Although the person who was being bullied got quite a bit of stick about the complaint at the time, people started to come out of the woodwork who had also been bullied by this person. HR knew all about this person, but couldn’t act because they hadn’t received a complaint. Apparently, this person was notorious, but nobody had ever had the bottle to just stand up and say ‘no’. The APS does have mechanisms for dealing with bullying, but it appears that there may be a cultural disincentive to pursue it. If, however, you do just bite the bullet and do it, you can regain some personal power, regain your dignity and hopefully dispatch a bully at the same time.

I really feel for your family, LSWCHP. I have been there (though not with the APS) and it’s horrid.

simsim said :

HenryBG said :

Jethro said :

HenryBG said :

Maybe ACT public schools should teach resilience instead of mollycoddling everybody against everything all the time?

I believe the research has shown private school kids are mollycoddled more than public school kids, as reflected in a higher failure rate at university when they are expected to do things for themselves for the first time in their lives.

I believe you are wrong.

You also belive that throwing rocks at defenceless women is acceptable behaviour rather than common assault, so forgive me if I don’t rate your opinions on anything highly.

I think you’ve got your threads crossed. This isn’t the thread about throwing rocks at whores, its the thread about people who develop mental illness as a result of their jobs being too much of a bludge.

LSWCHP said :

Also, I suspect some of his maniacal management style filtered down through the SES to the lower echelons. I say this as a life-long Labor voter, BTW, not as part of any Liberal conspiracy or anything.

Finally, it’s just a hypothesis based on my own personal experience. I’d be happy to have it proven wrong. And FWIW, I’m not gleeful about the apparent dysfunction in the APS. Far from it.

You are very correct IMHO.

The current generation of SES model their behaviour on the politicians above them.
Hence the issues we have now.

HenryBG said :

Jethro said :

HenryBG said :

Maybe ACT public schools should teach resilience instead of mollycoddling everybody against everything all the time?

I believe the research has shown private school kids are mollycoddled more than public school kids, as reflected in a higher failure rate at university when they are expected to do things for themselves for the first time in their lives.

I believe you are wrong.

You also belive that throwing rocks at defenceless women is acceptable behaviour rather than common assault, so forgive me if I don’t rate your opinions on anything highly.

Jethro said :

HenryBG said :

Maybe ACT public schools should teach resilience instead of mollycoddling everybody against everything all the time?

I believe the research has shown private school kids are mollycoddled more than public school kids, as reflected in a higher failure rate at university when they are expected to do things for themselves for the first time in their lives.

I believe you are wrong.

I worked in the public and private sectors about 50/50, and have had psycho bosses in both. In the private sector, the bullying nutcase was the owner’s son-in-law, so I had no choice but to resign (one of a long line, as I later found out). In the APS, the bullying nutcase was an exchange officer from overseas married to a diplomat, so was untouchable even though senior management knew what she was doing. Every single person in her branch left within 18 months of her taking over. She was an absolute thug.

I agree with those who are driven mad by the emphasis on process over outcomes, and especially the rewriting of trivial documents every step up the line. I have often had my briefs rewritten (reversing the recommendation each time) by two or three levels of the SES. It is easy to predict the outcome – it’s just like playing ‘she loves me, she loves me not’ by picking the petals off a daisy. If it’s an even number, your recommendation will get up, if it’s odd, it won’t. Their definition of ‘adding value’ is perverse, to say the least.

Don’t get me started on the utterly wasteful process of composing (and rewriting multiple times) elaborate answers to every letter from every demented bozo to the Minister.

That said, I have also had some wonderful bosses and colleagues and fascinating work. There is a lot of luck involved, as it is hard to know from outside whether the workplace you are moving to is toxic or not – and when it is toxic, it can be like the seventh circle of Hell.

Those who find themselves in a place like that have my deepest sympathy, and getting out is not necessarily easy or quick.

Also, there is nothing more demoralising than working your freckle off to produce something by yesterday only to have it disappear into a black hole. This is what constantly happened under Rudd, and as a chronic state of affairs it drove many hard-working and conscientious people to despair.

The other big variable is the Minister’s office. I was lucky to work for several years for a Minister who would not tolerate rude or inconsiderate behaviour by his staff, and it made all the difference. Friends who had to deal with rude megalomaniacs in their MO in other portfolios had a very different, and extremely unpleasant, experience.

LSWCHP said :

Thank you, that’s very kind of you and I appreciate it. We’re going OK.

It’s easy to say “change jobs”, but we’ve found that a 50-ish woman who has spent her entire life with one agency working on similar policy areas has limited options within the APS in an age of cutbacks and involuntary redundancies. But we’re going OK.

To all the other victims of overwork, bullying, abuse etc who’ve commented here, my heart really goes out to you. It’s tough on the individuals in the firing line, and it’s tough on their families. There certainly seems to be something wrong in the upper ranks of the APS, based on what I’ve read here.

As an APS employee your wife must have access to an employee assistance program/scheme EAP/EAS – they provide counselling and support for employees at no cost. I suggest you point your wife in that direction. Her workplace or Union will be able to provide this information.

EAP/EAS visits and counselling are all confidential.

I reckon the public service (read ‘most large office workplaces that seem a little abstract and removed from real life’) is pretty much like high school, you just have to employ slightly different survival tactics to survive. but overall.. same same..
some departments have a more welcoming culture, others are more clicky, just like bloody school..
keep yer chin up, have a safe place and try not to be the smelly kid, try not to be the fat kid and for the love of god don’t be the popular jock kid!
most importantly: if you can’t play nice, don’t play at all! 🙂

devils_advocate said :

Actually, I think it does attract stupid incompetent people, because they know they will be safe there. The underperformers in the APS have a pathological fear of the private sector and even try to push that fear onto everyone else in the hope that competent people will put up with their crap for the supposed job security..

Well, doesnt this presume that stupid incompetent people recognise that they are stupid, incompetent under performers?

As is usual, the good intelligent people are often the ones that know enough to understand that they are not great at everything. The stupid ones think they are great.

HenryBG said :

Maybe the ACT public school system should start teaching some commonsense and good decisionmaking?

Judging by your recent comments you’re the last person who should be last person to be talking about common sense. Are you off your meds?

FioBla said :

>My wife is a career public servant who has been driven to the verge of mental illness over the last few years by her mid-level role in the APS. It’s placed her, our family and our marriage under great stress, which we are still struggling to work through.

This thread is so sad. I hope your family is OK.

Thank you, that’s very kind of you and I appreciate it. We’re going OK.

It’s easy to say “change jobs”, but we’ve found that a 50-ish woman who has spent her entire life with one agency working on similar policy areas has limited options within the APS in an age of cutbacks and involuntary redundancies. But we’re going OK.

To all the other victims of overwork, bullying, abuse etc who’ve commented here, my heart really goes out to you. It’s tough on the individuals in the firing line, and it’s tough on their families. There certainly seems to be something wrong in the upper ranks of the APS, based on what I’ve read here.

And to those who’ve found good work in the APS, I’m very glad to hear about it. Good on you.

And as for Diskjockey? Well, I had a very rare sense of humour failure on reading your post, and you can get stuffed.

I am a public servant – for 7 months – so maybe not long enough to be jaded but I just want to say that my experience has been great. The conditions are wonderful, the people are respectful, there are great people and there are strange people, but you get that everywhere right?
I’m happy and proud to have a job in the APS. I’m sorry you’ve heard so many bad stories. Take care.

I think there seems to be a higher rate of mental health issues in the PS just because they are the biggest employers in town. I could be wrong but on average I don’t think that the PS would have higher rates than, say, teachers, labourers or checkout chicks.

devils_advocate said :

But no amount of job security is worth having to deal with f–kwits day in, day out.

I left an organisation that had many f—wits in it about 18 months ago, and the change has been wonderful. I think changing jobs is often the answer – go find something else that suits you better. Also, once you’ve made the decision to leave things don’t seem so bad as there is an end in sight. Just don’t go making the mistake many people do of telling all and sundry that they are trying to leave.

HenryBG said :

Maybe ACT public schools should teach resilience instead of mollycoddling everybody against everything all the time?

I believe the research has shown private school kids are mollycoddled more than public school kids, as reflected in a higher failure rate at university when they are expected to do things for themselves for the first time in their lives.

>My wife is a career public servant who has been driven to the verge of mental illness over the last few years by her mid-level role in the APS. It’s placed her, our family and our marriage under great stress, which we are still struggling to work through.

This thread is so sad. I hope your family is OK.

dtc said :

In the APS , if you are a terrible person and you dont deliver, or barely deliver, you stay.

This doesnt mean the APS attracts more of these people, but they dont leave and after a while the concentration gets higher and you come across them more and more.

Actually, I think it does attract stupid incompetent people, because they know they will be safe there. The underperformers in the APS have a pathological fear of the private sector and even try to push that fear onto everyone else in the hope that competent people will put up with their crap for the supposed job security.

But no amount of job security is worth having to deal with f–kwits day in, day out.

The bullying and harassment has got worse over the years I reckon, especially the last 10 years – partly due to the principle of the promotion of incompetence I suspect (especially in the ACTGS). I know of people who have not only left town because of the damage to their mental health from working in the public services, they have left the country entirely! Mind you, the non gov sector doesnt exactly cover itself with glory in this regard either and some agencies are similarly toxic.

HenryBG said :

HenryBG said :

What I find astounding is how unfriendly pubes are to each other. You’ve got the bludgiest job in the world, so you really have nothing to worry about.

Ah, the delicious irony of Henry telling others to be tolerant and understanding of others.

I’m not telling anybody to be tolerant – I’m suggesting you have fun. Have a laugh.

If somebody tries to dump a stupid deadline on you, tell them to @$#% off. That’s exactly how *they* got where *they* are, you don’t have to eat their sh1t sandwiches. Throw them back in their faces. Save up a couple of good jokes and if they try to dress you down in front of others, drop a good joke on them. Or a bad one. What’s the worst they could do to you? Pinch your arse? Boohoo. “Thanks for that, the crabs were just getting really itchy right there”.

Maybe ACT public schools should teach resilience instead of mollycoddling everybody against everything all the time?

Maybe I should throw rocks at them?

Especially the woman.

That would be a laugh.

Sounds like a pretty stupid idea to me.

Maybe the ACT public school system should start teaching some commonsense and good decisionmaking?

I’ve worked in both the public and private sectors. I’m in the APS and about to head to my fifth agency. I’ve retained my private sector work ethic (at least I think I have), and have found opportunity, reward and great friendships along the way.

Like any employer – you will find a cross-section of the community gets employed in the APS. I’ve seen people roll up to work in ugg-boots. I’ve seen the yellers/swearers/sexual predators/malingerers and the downright lazy and incompetant. I’ve found it tough at times, but I remind myself that what I do beats the crap out of lots of other jobs I’ve had.

The biggest concern many people have in the APS is that they get emotionally attached to their work and their workplace. I’m not saying one should not CARE about their job, they just need to remind themselves that it’s a job, not their life. People should also remember that nobody has a gun to their head – and if they’re so desperately unhappy they should vote with their feet.

I reckon the APS has been great, and will happily continue along until I lose interest or win lotto. OP – I think you’ve had a tough run and would encourage your missus to find another role.

HenryBG said :

What I find astounding is how unfriendly pubes are to each other. You’ve got the bludgiest job in the world, so you really have nothing to worry about.

Ah, the delicious irony of Henry telling others to be tolerant and understanding of others.

I’m not telling anybody to be tolerant – I’m suggesting you have fun. Have a laugh.

If somebody tries to dump a stupid deadline on you, tell them to @$#% off. That’s exactly how *they* got where *they* are, you don’t have to eat their sh1t sandwiches. Throw them back in their faces. Save up a couple of good jokes and if they try to dress you down in front of others, drop a good joke on them. Or a bad one. What’s the worst they could do to you? Pinch your arse? Boohoo. “Thanks for that, the crabs were just getting really itchy right there”.

Maybe ACT public schools should teach resilience instead of mollycoddling everybody against everything all the time?

EvanJames said :

But Health was a great example of just how bad it can be. The last branch I worked in, people couldn’t even tell me what the branch did, what its purpose was (its title was utterly meaningless). None of them had any knowledge of the health sector, had ever engaged with it in any way, knew who the main players were or trends in it. They used APS 6/EL1 level people to research answers to ministerials, which was each and every crackpot trivial missive sent to the Minister. They’d spend days on one such letter, and then the response had to circulate around Directors/Branch Head several times, for changes (anyone at SES level had a bad case of Changeitis). Times this by about 40 a week, and I don’t know how these people managed to continue to come to work most days.

I’ve also heard sections of health are really bad, with equally damning retention rates. Ages ago I heard about the results of an internal staff survey. By the sounds of it, there were several very depressed/desk drone staff there who were simply hanging on & trudging their way through. The only answer I can somewhat recall was along the lines of “if I had to answer this question truthfully, I’d be too depressed and unable to work for the rest of the day”. Wish I knew what the question was!

According to Catalyst, 2% of men and 0.5% of women are “corporate psychopaths”:
http://www.abc.net.au/catalyst/stories/s1360571.htm
Given the size of the APS, there’s scope for a lot of them being employed there…

I’ve worked in two agencies (a centeral and a large line area) and I have to say that in the centeral there were both more people that took their job really seriously and put in the hard yards, but also more people that had worked there for 10 years + and were unable to consider doing things a different way.
The line agency (where I am now) is a lot more consultative an into trying new things, but also (I think) has a little more dead wood.
I’ve had terrible bosses (sexual harrassment, promised promotions that did not happen, one that drove me to take a week off work because I couldn’t even think about it without crying) and amazing ones. I don’t think it was the APS, I think that’s life – in fact the worse boss by far came direct from the private sector.

In the end, I found the EAP extremely helpful when I was having a bad time and really recomend it to anyone.

Anyone think the open plan offices in shades of grey (but in the boring sense, not the book sense) under flouro lights and the cheapest fit out creates issues? You walk in and just think ‘not motivated’. Energy levels drop, people just cruise around in a semi slumber.

I reckon those that have pointed out the lack of any link between activity and performance have a good point. In the private sector, if you are a terrible person but deliver, you will probably stay. But at least people know you deliver. And if you are so bad that you cannot keep staff, then you are not delivering. Bad people who dont deliver will not survive.

In the APS , if you are a terrible person and you dont deliver, or barely deliver, you stay.

This doesnt mean the APS attracts more of these people, but they dont leave and after a while the concentration gets higher and you come across them more and more. I suspect the people who get to the top in the private sector are – on average – more demanding and harder to deal with than the top APS. But in the next levels down, its reversed. In the private sector the next level down are the up and comers, the ones competing and delivering. In the APS, not always the case.

Plus in the private sector, if you are good yourself and want to move due to poor management, you just do it. If you are good, people want you and may even try to poach you. In the APS good people are wanted as well, but you probably have to get a reference from your boss and go through the recruitment process and it takes 6 months and in the interim things get worse..

That said, the statistic as to the proportion of stree claims in the APS is misleading, because how else do you get injured? Drop a stack of photocopies on your toe?

Vicepope summarised the real nub of it really well. My early career in the APS was in a coalface public contact area, so you didn’t get that disconnect between what you do and what your organisation does. Likewise, bullying was necessarily stifled due to the tight team environment, and the “us vs them” thing with our sometimes difficult customers.

When I moved up into the policy world, that’s where the nasty stuff was dwelling. Also the pointless, the amazing bottlenecks caused by idiots who wouldn’t sign anything until it went around several more times, the lack of meaning to the work, and the various flavours of bullying that went on.

It has got much worse since then. I found DFAT not so affected, it has its own way of doing things and it is their way or the highway, but if everyone’s read from the playbook, things work. The lines of command were very well defined and not so stupid.

But Health was a great example of just how bad it can be. The last branch I worked in, people couldn’t even tell me what the branch did, what its purpose was (its title was utterly meaningless). None of them had any knowledge of the health sector, had ever engaged with it in any way, knew who the main players were or trends in it. They used APS 6/EL1 level people to research answers to ministerials, which was each and every crackpot trivial missive sent to the Minister. They’d spend days on one such letter, and then the response had to circulate around Directors/Branch Head several times, for changes (anyone at SES level had a bad case of Changeitis). Times this by about 40 a week, and I don’t know how these people managed to continue to come to work most days.

And if the whole branch was got-rid of tomorrow, no one and nothing would be affected. Except the Minister would need someone to write answers to every letter she got sent.

I know Abbott and Hockey are focussing their intentions on Health (and Education), for savage cuts when they get in next year. Probably because they know they can do it without serious effects on the end product.

VYBerlinaV8_is_back said :

Discjockey said :

…take your under-qualified, over-paid, spoilt, fat arse to somewhere else on the planet…

That was AWESOME! 🙂 🙂

I think this deserves it’s own thread, such is it’s insightful awesomeness.

I think he’s been working up to that for a while.

As a born and breed Canberran who has spent their professional working life in the not for profit/community organisation world, mid 2011 I decided it was time to do my tour of duty and have a stint in the APS. I joined DoHA on a 6 month contract (APS6) just before all the cuts and freezes were announced. The people I worked with were great, if not a little aloof to begin with, and the work was interesting enough (certainly not engaging). What I couldn’t come at was the time delays to get anything done …. a member of my team had to write a minute for the Director to get sign off to get a quote. This process (after re-writing the minute 6 times and ‘consulting’ legal, comms etc etc etc) took the entire 6 months that I was in the dept, in fact I don’t even think they had quotes by the time I left! Also, I am sure some PS have hectic workloads, but from what I saw in my time was nothing even close to hectic. Sure some of the deadlines were ridiculous, and notice could be non existent, but the load always appeared manageable. Maybe it’s just that I am used to a different type of workload working for incredibly under resourced NFP’s …. anyway, moral of my 2 cents is: happy back in the NFP world and hoping to never return to the APS ….. probably not an option now anyway, so thank you Gillard government

Discjockey said :

The majority of diagnosable mental illnesses are bullsh1t, narcissistic and borderline personality disorder are bullsh1t. That’s why they were non-existent in the 60’s, 70’s and early 80’s in the workforce.
if you have any amateur acting skills, a copy of the DSM IV, and know how to visit several doctors until you can get a medical certificate then congratulations, you qualify for receiving a mental illness!!
With one of these you can do the following;
• Backwards rationalise all your problems and blame it on your ‘disorder’
• Claim lucrative benefits from your workplace if ‘events’ that occurred there ‘triggered’ your ‘workplace injury’
• Take the ridiculous amount of ‘personal leave’ you are entitled to that you wouldn’t otherwise be able to leverage if you weren’t suffering a ‘psychological injury’
The fact is the majority of ‘psych injuries’ are invented so that pharmaceutical companies can rebrand the same toxic pharmaceuticals they sedate ‘psychologically injured’ public servants with and subsequently receive benefits from the PBS who fund hypochondriac APS employees’ drug habits
Prescription drugs actually make public servants sicker as they cause dependency and generally only receive clinical trial testing that lasts 4-6 weeks. The benefit is, when people get sick from these drugs they actually have something to whinge about.
The truth is, the APS is full of under-qualified baby boomers who got recruited at a time where quality demand exceeded quality supply, now there’s more ‘mental illness’ and performance management than ever. With a growing population of competent and ageing workers instability is normal.
Now you’re finding mid-range employees kicking up a stink because grads are getting EL positions, grads are actually qualified to do the work and have spent a ridiculous amount of money on a degree to get there. It’s hard enough having to pay off a HECS debt and a mortgage on a house with its price inflated because all these under-qualified, over-privileged baby boomers purchased cheap houses on their APS Salaries at a time when housing supply exceeded demand.
If work is so hard and stressful in the Public Service take your under-qualified, over-paid, spoilt, fat arse to somewhere else on the planet, 50% of the worlds population live on less than $2 a day. Work in Syria for a few weeks then return to your ‘stressful’ job and complain about how difficult it is.

That was AWESOME! 🙂 🙂

Discjockey said :

The majority of diagnosable mental illnesses are bullsh1t, narcissistic and borderline personality disorder are bullsh1t. … BS BS BS … Work in Syria for a few weeks then return to your ‘stressful’ job and complain about how difficult it is.

At first I was going to call you for a $cientologist. But now I think you are just taking the piss and having a troll. Nice work.

Let’s just say that without my experiences in the public service, I doubt I would be a poet today. Hegaxonal peg. Square hole.

The majority of diagnosable mental illnesses are bullsh1t, narcissistic and borderline personality disorder are bullsh1t. That’s why they were non-existent in the 60’s, 70’s and early 80’s in the workforce.
if you have any amateur acting skills, a copy of the DSM IV, and know how to visit several doctors until you can get a medical certificate then congratulations, you qualify for receiving a mental illness!!
With one of these you can do the following;
• Backwards rationalise all your problems and blame it on your ‘disorder’
• Claim lucrative benefits from your workplace if ‘events’ that occurred there ‘triggered’ your ‘workplace injury’
• Take the ridiculous amount of ‘personal leave’ you are entitled to that you wouldn’t otherwise be able to leverage if you weren’t suffering a ‘psychological injury’
The fact is the majority of ‘psych injuries’ are invented so that pharmaceutical companies can rebrand the same toxic pharmaceuticals they sedate ‘psychologically injured’ public servants with and subsequently receive benefits from the PBS who fund hypochondriac APS employees’ drug habits
Prescription drugs actually make public servants sicker as they cause dependency and generally only receive clinical trial testing that lasts 4-6 weeks. The benefit is, when people get sick from these drugs they actually have something to whinge about.
The truth is, the APS is full of under-qualified baby boomers who got recruited at a time where quality demand exceeded quality supply, now there’s more ‘mental illness’ and performance management than ever. With a growing population of competent and ageing workers instability is normal.
Now you’re finding mid-range employees kicking up a stink because grads are getting EL positions, grads are actually qualified to do the work and have spent a ridiculous amount of money on a degree to get there. It’s hard enough having to pay off a HECS debt and a mortgage on a house with its price inflated because all these under-qualified, over-privileged baby boomers purchased cheap houses on their APS Salaries at a time when housing supply exceeded demand.
If work is so hard and stressful in the Public Service take your under-qualified, over-paid, spoilt, fat arse to somewhere else on the planet, 50% of the worlds population live on less than $2 a day. Work in Syria for a few weeks then return to your ‘stressful’ job and complain about how difficult it is.

HenryBG said :

Acting EL2 in Education?

Lying, bullying, incompetent, vindictive and downright nasty.

I had an amusing experience several years ago when a female who was a good few rungs up the ladder (not far from the top of her agency in fact) had me called into a meeting about a problem they were experiencing.
As soon as I sat down, she basically stood up, looked down at me, and tried to drop the problem on me as its cause.
She was so far off the mark I couldn’t help laughing a bit as I pointed out that I was the guy in charge of X and if she had a problem with Y maybe she should speak with the guy in charge of Y. This prompted her to launch into a frothing-mouthed in-my-face rant which I found quite surprising.

I recommend you get a job in the real world before deciding to get stressed-out about this kind of kindergarten behaviour. Just laugh it off. Do the best you can at your job, actually TALK to your colleagues and SMILE at them, and you’ll be fine.

What I find astounding is how unfriendly pubes are to each other. You’ve got the bludgiest job in the world, so you really have nothing to worry about.

Ah, the delicious irony of Henry telling others to be tolerant and understanding of others.

+ 1. I am surprised he didn’t just throw rocks at her.

There’s a number of break points in any employment that can cause problems and can tip anyone with a hint of vulnerability over the edge. The public sector – and any large bureaucracy – has a few of them.

Look at process-generated alienation between action (what an individual does) and outcome (what the agency is supposed to achieve). Look at the need to respond to silliness that exists only in the minds of Ministerial minders, a hysterical journalist with the attention span of a gnat and an SES officer keen to be seen as responsive. Look for the last time you ever saw a senior manager (agency head or deputy) stand up for the troops. Look at the lack of autonomy for staff created by managers with a need to manage what doesn’t need to be managed simply because they can’t do anything more useful. Look at stupid staffing decisions piled on earlier stupid staffing decisions so that managements and Ministers can wind up in a coccoon of deniability. Look at the trend to outsource anything worth doing, at whatever cost, because, ultimately, Ministers and agency heads have a fundamental distaste for the agencies they lead.

People like to be busy, doing useful things, and to feel valued for what they do. These things aren’t around as much as they should be. Faced with enough of the negatives, most people will turn off and focus on their lives outside work. Some can’t disengage and they will be broken.

LSWCHP said :

I believe that something really bad occurred in the APS as a result of the Rudd governments demands and working style, and it’s had a hugely negative effect on the quality of life of a lot of APS staff.

The old saying goes: “in a democracy, people get the government they deserve.” Since the APS predominately vote for labor, they get what they deserve.

Acting EL2 in Education?

Lying, bullying, incompetent, vindictive and downright nasty.

I had an amusing experience several years ago when a female who was a good few rungs up the ladder (not far from the top of her agency in fact) had me called into a meeting about a problem they were experiencing.
As soon as I sat down, she basically stood up, looked down at me, and tried to drop the problem on me as its cause.
She was so far off the mark I couldn’t help laughing a bit as I pointed out that I was the guy in charge of X and if she had a problem with Y maybe she should speak with the guy in charge of Y. This prompted her to launch into a frothing-mouthed in-my-face rant which I found quite surprising.

I recommend you get a job in the real world before deciding to get stressed-out about this kind of kindergarten behaviour. Just laugh it off. Do the best you can at your job, actually TALK to your colleagues and SMILE at them, and you’ll be fine.

What I find astounding is how unfriendly pubes are to each other. You’ve got the bludgiest job in the world, so you really have nothing to worry about.

I’m APS and I’m very happy with my employment and my employer (a large Dept). I work in IT and most of the frustrations I have seem to be the same in public and private employment. The positives are a caring employer (relatively), great conditions (super, leave, parental considerations), good environment and not having the stress of your company going broke or not finding your next contract etc.

Two things that drive me nuts are seeing money wasted. Time is spent accounting for choosing the $3 things over the $5 things, but the bigger picture that an $x million dollar project was a waste of time and will get scrapped seems to get missed. The other is that while relative employment security is good, it means that as a manager, the process of getting rid of useless staff can be extremely difficult. The modern HR teams tell you it’s not that bad, but it is. It’s not bad if a staff member does something stupid like fraud, porn at work or assault, but there’s a bunch of staff that underperform, but not so much that you can get rid of them, rather one has to make the most of whatever half arsed talents and motivation they may have. Sometimes good staff move on and you can end up with a team of these PS zombies.

The reality is that any workplace has great potential to cause stress & anxiety. You’re possibly making a false connection between stress & the APS because you’re drawing from an unrepresentative sample; that is, 90% of Canberrans have probably worked in the APS at some point. Additionally if this many people within your family have had breakdowns you probably need to consider genetic factors.

For the record I’ve worked for many years in both public & private sectors and I’ve found the latter to be more stressful, mainly because you can actually get sacked for poor performance.

The only person sent crazy by the APS in our group of friends/family is me. I reckon 75% of the people we regularly associate with are or have been public servants, resulting in social gatherings inevitably coming around to the topic of work and the air filling with the sound of acronyms. If you’re looking for me at a party the chances are I’ll be in the backyard having a nerf gun war, running the screening of a Pixar movie, or partaking in the construction of some monstrous Lego creation.
At a dinner party, preferred choice is the kids table, otherwise I’m probably surfing eBay for car parts on my iPhone in a discreet way. Please don’t take offence, I just couldn’t give a crap what everyone is crapping on about.

Mindlessdrone said :

As an aside – Did any one pick up on the Census question last year about what your workplace produces? I was sorely tempted to fill in the answer as ‘bullshit’…..

I put “administrative bureaucracy”.

I entered the APS a few years ago as an older person in my 40s.
The first two positions (entry level admin roles) were ghastly – both (female) bosses I worked for were the classic ‘dragon’ for whom all staff were/are on eggshells 24/7. One was in DMO, one was in AGD. The one in DMO (EL2 level) in particular was highly egocentric and had favourites who could do anything they pleased, while the rest tried to avoid her as much as possible.

I then transferred at level to another position which I loved, and I have been lucky enough to be promoted since then within the same team. It’s a casework position in a fantastic team which actually deals with real people on a daily basis. I don’t intend to leave that position anytime soon.

I guess the thing is to keep moving around till you find something you like – after all, you are there all day long. I would highly recommend casework areas though – you actually feel like you are doing a ‘public service’ instead of the kind of demoralising work policy areas have to deal with. They are also better from a work life balance aspect. We have several part timers, and most staff have young children.

I might add, unless you really really like doing annoying things like: regularly having to deal with recruitment and HR processes; high stress levels; not actually doing the work you like; and not getting paid for extra hours (TOIL) worked; I would personally ‘strategically’ avoid going higher than APS 6 or EL1 levels.

FYI, several family members are in the APS. One was invalided out on valid stress grounds and one just up and left one day – breakdown. Both of these occurred some years ago.

I hope your wife successfully finds a position she likes and finds rewarding.

I don’t find working in the APS to be like working in a mental health facility – and I have experience of working in such places. I’d concede, though, that staff who are less able to take an assertive stance at work may be finding things more difficult than they were perhaps five or six years ago. Those years have seen staff levels drop further, while work demands have stayed the same or increased (despite the oft-repeated assurance that less resources will mean reduced expectations) and stress levels have increased as a result. Some managers – the poor kind – pass that stress down the line and take it out on their staff.

I’ve been in the APS for nearly 20 years and have the skills, experience and assurance to stare down the bullies – whatever their supposed importance – and largely shield my team from the worst of the crap, but those staff with a slightly more tender disposition (or the ones who have had their inflated sense of their own importance popped) can find it difficult to muster the resilience needed to survive. If you aren’t terribly confident and emotionally stable to start with, or have a predisposition to mental health issues, then some areas of the APS will exacerbate that, especially lately.

And I giggled at the poster that said central agencies had a higher calibre of people, who know what their job is and how to do it. Nope, not especially. Not in my experience. But some central agency staff (usually junior) do seem to hold that haughty belief about themselves. And central agencies do appear to employ some of the more… eccentric… staff of the APS.

i’m amazed more people in the APS don’t say no, or find somewhere better to work. make every moment frank and fearless, maintain the rage, at the end of the day it’s just a means to an end, etc. what’s the worst that could happen?

it’s a bit odd to see dfat held up as a glorious bastion of morals and enlightenment. postings anyone?

loulou86 said :

I spent 3 years working under a nightmare supervisor… she was a bully and had me on the verge of tears almost weekly. She made me feel useless, she would micro-manage everything I did and even when I found more efficient ways of doing things she would argue with me and make me feel stupid.

Everyone knew, but nobody did anything. I honestly felt like there was nothing I could do and that if I complained it would just get worse. In that time, I used up all my sick leave because I didn’t want to come to work, I ended up having to use my annual leave or taking it out of my pay. It impacted other parts of my life as well, I used to take my frustration out on my family, I would go out a lot on the weekends, sometimes even on a week night and go to work on 2 hours sleep. There was a lot of alcohol and drug experimentation in that time. I tried to seperate work from my home life but when you’re stuck with someone like that for 80% of your week, it affects you in every way. Reading that back now, it seems insane that one person could drive you to behave in such an extreme way, but I was quite depressed and lonely and I felt trapped.

Even people who worked near her, location-wise, not even WITH her, ended up moving away after a few months because of her horrible attitude and the way she spoke down to people. I discovered one day that a girl who worked in my position before me was reduced to tears daily and left after only two weeks with severe anxiety and other problems.

I finally managed to get out and I moved to another area almost 2 years ago. Now that I’m a part of a close team that values, respects, encourages and suppports each other, everything is back on track. I don’t dread going to work everyday, I don’t need to walk on eggshells or feel inadequate. The public service is not something I want to be doing for the rest of my life, but being 25 with a really good salary, I’m using it to fund study in a completely different field and then hopefully at some point I’ll be able to say goodbye. Some days it can be soul-crushing with slow boring days, but not nearly as bad as it was for me working with that woman.

Some areas are good, some are really bad. I hope it gets better for your wife, OP.

I have read this post and it brings back some fairly horrible memories fro me. But I have to ask, was this particular female in the SES within Customs and Border Protection?. While they have considerable problems with bullying and harassment that they ignore, there was one in particular there that was one of the nastiest pieces of work that anyone has ever encountered. Simply horrible, incompetent – and a liar as well to the point where she would lie about her staff to senior SES just to curry favour. She was the ‘Office Psychopath’ in the true sense of the word!

Could this be the same woman that you’re referring to….??????

NoAddedMSG said :

My partner is in the public service, in a policy area. He finds it a bit tedious, there have been some very stressful times, but we both clocked up a number of years working in science in universities (where people are treated as consumable items to be discarded after a few years like they are no different to a used pipette tip). Compared with working in science, the APS is less stress, fewer hours, and more reliable money.

I am a pipette tip… but I stay there for the leave entitlements.

In all seriousness, The vast majority of my friends and family are APS, and in general they have a hard time of it. A few have found good spots, but the majority deal with too little staff for the job and bullying from supervisors. Though my friend in the private sector say pretty much the same thing. Anyone would think it is common to try to save money by hiring less staff!

The public service is shockingly damaging to many people who work in it, and a haven for sociopaths.

The basic problem is that there is really not any work for anyone to do, or any real hard performance feedback (like going bankrupt provides real feedback in the private sector) so there is nothing to stop these people. Cutting the public service hard such that the APS 4s had actual work, and senior people had to manage or get sacked, would be a good start.

I had one director who wanted to be exhalated as a philosopher king, so the only people who he promoted were dunces that were willing to listen to his total crap. When I got screwed by him I applied for another job in a totally different agency but where he’s worked previously and did a “take this job and shove it” style walk out. It was pretty clear that I thought he was a d*^k, and this trashed his reputation with all the staff who were left. When I got to the new agency, I found out that he’d worded-up all his mates in my new agency, so then I copped bulling and harassment for a year until I left.

I had another manager that would scream “I don’t give a f*&k” down the telephone to external stakeholders. SESB1, 2 and 3 did nothing. She would basically try to find a way to antagonise you until there was a fight and then scream in front of 25 or more staff “‘I don’t give a f*&k blah, blah, blah,…” to try to intimidate you to running around in fear for two weeks. She’s still on some type of contract so she’s earning about $150,000 per annum for her efforts. This was the place where emails had to be cleared through the SESB2, so you just had to sit there like a drone for three weeks until you were authorised to hit send.

But, things are looking up. I’ve just started working somewhere that has a less than 100 per cent per year staff turnover rate.

I think most pubes are depressed because of boredom – sure they might have a high volume of work, but after a few years there’s only so much cutting, pasting and formatting you can do without your brain trying to escape out your ears.
Human nature likes to create things and that basic need doesn’t fit into the APS Code of Conduct.
As an aside – Did any one pick up on the Census question last year about what your workplace produces? I was sorely tempted to fill in the answer as ‘bullshit’…..

Sounds a lot like the OP has escaped from a rat house!

In the 20+ years I’ve been a pube I have seen lots of people get frustrated with the bulls*** that goes on and maybe 1 or 2 crazies, but wouldn’t say it is even close to being wide spread.

As for the bulls***, most of that comes from red tape to ensure that the department doesn’t find itself on the front page of the paper. After all that is the most important thing.

Let’s just say I’ve worked for many directors over the years…one tried to slit his wrists twice due to stress, the replacement was a born-again christian who thought that people were possessed by demons and kept a bible on his desk which he quoted from during meetings, the next guy had an incontinence problem wore adult nappies and smelt like poo (he also liked to stalk the female staff and call them after hours for “chats”) – it was poo-man’s era that resulted in my getting an irregular heartbeat from the stress of it. There were two professional and decent acting directors but they didn’t get the job. The weird ones mentioned above are by no means the strangest or the worst I’ve since encountered.

I’m not saying psychopaths don’t exist in the private sector – but they THRIVE in the public service. I’ve certainly met many in director’s positions and above who seem to revel in bullying and abusive behaviour. They do a lot of talking about getting rid of bullying but at the same time it seems to be prerequisite behaviour for people in senior positions.

I had a few good years in the APS but the rest have been like some kind of reality survival show.

It’s bad but the pay is good, so you compromise your sanity and health for the sake of paying bills and looking after family.

NoImRight said :

LSWCHP said :

I think Evan James made a very cogent point.

My wife was mostly happy in the APS until the 2007 (ie Rudd) election. After the elections she was forced to change positions due to machinery-of-government changes, and since then she’s suffered through a variety of problems in a number of different positions. She’s been sexually harassed (bottom stroking, unwanted hugging, being addressed as “Darling” by her supervisor), overworked (more than 50% of positions in her current section are unfilled resulting in regular 10 hour days), bullied (shouted at and fists shaken in her face) and generally treated poorly.

I believe that something really bad occurred in the APS as a result of the Rudd governments demands and working style, and it’s had a hugely negative effect on the quality of life of a lot of APS staff.

Or…..not. Most APS would have no impact on their day to day work regardless of who the PM is.Its somewhat unealistic to think the work practice of sometimes large Departmenst is micromanaged like that. What would be gained? Big assumption based on anecdotal evidence

I’m not saying Rudd micromanaged every APS4 in the service. I’m saying that I suspect that his government placed excessive demands on the APS across the board. Workloads seemed to go up everywhere around that time.

Also, I suspect some of his maniacal management style filtered down through the SES to the lower echelons. I say this as a life-long Labor voter, BTW, not as part of any Liberal conspiracy or anything.

Finally, it’s just a hypothesis based on my own personal experience. I’d be happy to have it proven wrong. And FWIW, I’m not gleeful about the apparent dysfunction in the APS. Far from it.

LSWCHP said :

I think Evan James made a very cogent point.

My wife was mostly happy in the APS until the 2007 (ie Rudd) election. After the elections she was forced to change positions due to machinery-of-government changes, and since then she’s suffered through a variety of problems in a number of different positions. She’s been sexually harassed (bottom stroking, unwanted hugging, being addressed as “Darling” by her supervisor), overworked (more than 50% of positions in her current section are unfilled resulting in regular 10 hour days), bullied (shouted at and fists shaken in her face) and generally treated poorly.

I believe that something really bad occurred in the APS as a result of the Rudd governments demands and working style, and it’s had a hugely negative effect on the quality of life of a lot of APS staff.

Or…..not. Most APS would have no impact on their day to day work regardless of who the PM is.Its somewhat unealistic to think the work practice of sometimes large Departmenst is micromanaged like that. What would be gained? Big assumption based on anecdotal evidence

I think Evan James made a very cogent point.

My wife was mostly happy in the APS until the 2007 (ie Rudd) election. After the elections she was forced to change positions due to machinery-of-government changes, and since then she’s suffered through a variety of problems in a number of different positions. She’s been sexually harassed (bottom stroking, unwanted hugging, being addressed as “Darling” by her supervisor), overworked (more than 50% of positions in her current section are unfilled resulting in regular 10 hour days), bullied (shouted at and fists shaken in her face) and generally treated poorly.

I believe that something really bad occurred in the APS as a result of the Rudd governments demands and working style, and it’s had a hugely negative effect on the quality of life of a lot of APS staff.

maloomike said :

The issues with the public sector is accountibility, no one wants to put their arse on the line and make a decision. Decisions you would think should be made easily often take months, I find this totally frustrating. In addition there are very few leaders in the APS, most managers I have seen lack real people skills and usually only care about their own careers putting ahead interests of staff..

While that is truly a problem, there are rules (often backed up by legislation) about who can commit money to things, who can sign contracts, who can hire people etc. These rule are there from the good old days when money went to friends companies in inflated quotes, sons and cousins were given jobs etc. Largely those things have ended, but the cost has been the need to get approval from up the tree for ridiculas things, or the selection criteria bullshit that we all hate.

I guess it depends on what your perspective is but I work in a policy department and I’d say 90% of EL staff are out the door by 6 and take a 45 minute lunch. Friends of mine in the private sector in professional jobs work longer hours and their jobs seem way more stressful ie hit the targets or they are in trouble. Most of the people I’ve met in the APS who complained of stress etc. seemed to have a very low tolerance for stress ie being given reasonable deadlines and multiple tasks freaked them out.

My partner is in the public service, in a policy area. He finds it a bit tedious, there have been some very stressful times, but we both clocked up a number of years working in science in universities (where people are treated as consumable items to be discarded after a few years like they are no different to a used pipette tip). Compared with working in science, the APS is less stress, fewer hours, and more reliable money. I think what my partner finds most frustrating is that he is one of the ones who isn’t useless but if he suddenly stopped being productive and spent his days gazing at his navel instead, no one would notice and no one would do anything about it.

Check the Comcare statistics, stress & psychological claims are now up to 13% of total claims & 30%+ of the total costs, now averaging 200 grand each.This is with rejigging & amending the CERC Act a few times so they are easier to reject (and cause further psychological injury).

The public service is so large and broad it’s very difficult to generalise. It’s like saying “does the medical industry drive people mad” or “does the legal industry drive people mad”.

Sections within my department vary wildly in their management, attitudes and cultures, so I can’t even imagine what a broad spectrum there would be throughout the APS. I’ve been in a couple of places so far and haven’t gone mad. Stress leave or sudden disappearances aren’t too common, and this is in a place which has pretty unrealistic expectations, so I could understand it if people did go mad.

I’ve had excellent bosses and things to do. I have a lot of friends who are young lawyers in law firms expected to work until 9pm usually, I think their lives must be so much worse than my flextime scenario.

Honestly most of the people I know who have had work-related breakdowns or similar problems (only a handful) are mostly teachers.

davo101 said :

MrLinus said :

you work at a place you really can’t get fired from

Really? My state department is currently in the process of tapping about 5% of the workforce on the shoulder and telling them not to come Monday. I’m pretty sure that’s the definition of being fired.

that’s not due to performance issues though, that’s just a much needed culling. The point that was being made in the post was that people can’t be fired for underperformance, which is a valid point.

MrLinus said :

you work at a place you really can’t get fired from

Really? My state department is currently in the process of tapping about 5% of the workforce on the shoulder and telling them not to come Monday. I’m pretty sure that’s the definition of being fired.

MrLinus said :

will always get pay rises each year

Indeed. My bosses have legislated a cap on pay rises that means if the RBA hits the lower end of their target my salary will just keep up with inflation. Could be worse, I could be in Qld where they’re currently trying to cap their salary rises to 1.6% pa.

I have a notion that the APS has got a lot worse in recent years. Howard changed it, and what Rudd did to it in his short stint will be written about in years to come. Different departments are definitely different kettles of fish though. The Central Agencies IMO are better because the calibre of people in them is higher, and I guess they have more of a sense of purpose. DFAT and Finance in particular, I’ve worked in both and people knew what their job was, and how to do it. I think Treasury is similar. PM&C, sadly, has suffered under Howard and especially Rudd. Pulled in all directions, meddling in other departments’ business (home insulation debacle for one).

One department I’ve failed to work for twice now, is Health. OMG what a bizarre, dreadful mess that is. If there are any pockets of competence there, I certainly never found them. If there was ever any morale there, it’s long gone. I swear, the very air was grey. Education is also strange, and the psychological undercurrents (and overcurrents) are downright nasty. Some of the vicious bullying that was allowed to flourish would amaze you.

VeryMildSuperPowers said :

what type of f***ing blinds people should buy.

Hmm, my curiosity is piqued. Tell me, how are these blinds used exactly?

The thing that’s wrong with the public service is the people, the kind who have posted here about being stressed, anxious and mentally ill. Seriously how can things possibly be that bad when you work at a place you really can’t get fired from, can move somewhere else when you don’t like it, will always get pay rises each year and where you have access to some of the most generous leave entitlements going around???

I work in the public service too and yes there’s a lot of process involved but if there wasn’t you would have rogue public servants out there doing crazy stuff and people would be postng on RiotAct about it! You didn’t apply for a job as a super hero so don’t expect to be treated like one.

Truth be told if the APS was a private enterprise it would have been insolvent years ago. I have experienced working in the private and public sector. The issues with the public sector is accountibility, no one wants to put their arse on the line and make a decision. Decisions you would think should be made easily often take months, I find this totally frustrating. In addition there are very few leaders in the APS, most managers I have seen lack real people skills and usually only care about their own careers putting ahead interests of staff.

It comes down to that old saying “promoted to the level of incompetence”.

If you experience a recurring problem in your life, sometimes the simplest answer is to look at the most obvious common denominator – i.e. you.

the public service, like any other “industry” (for want of a better term) is exactly what you make of it.

Some people like to be miserable, and have something to complain about to anyone who will listen. This occurs in relation to many things, not just work.

Hmmm I havent been in the APS for any great length of time and only worked for two departments so I cannot offer a lot of feedback on this one. The first department was small but was great, I loved my colleagues, mostly enjoyed the work I did and rose rather quickly up the ladder and after coming from private ent I was once again challenged and rewarded…all over feel good feeling.

I then was offered a contract for 3 months in a much much larger department which I hated!! It was so sterile and everyone just kept their heads down and didn’t really communicate or socialise…and YES I get that we arent there to socialise…however!! a friendly chat doesnt hurt right? Anyway 3 weeks later and I am in my first week with a new employer back in private enterprise in a completely different line of work and am loving it…I have taken a massive pay cut but am sure I can once again climb back up.

I remember my mother having a nervous breakdown many years ago in a large gov department…at the time I was too young to know what had happened…I have heard of this happening numerous times to relatively sane stable people I have known.

I dont know?…some people are predisposed to certain conditions…I know damn well if I had stayed at the last dept I would have gone insane and ultimately very depressed…is it maybe up to the individual to recognise this and move onto something else? DO you allow the bullies or manipulators to continue on their merry way??? Personally I would’nt but not everyone is strong enough to fight back?

StumpyPete said :

In summary – too many square pegs trying to work in round holes.

+1

This… plus the conga line of arsehat grads being moved to EL

I’ve been on three federal departments/agencies over 15 years in different roles and loved every single one of them.

A casual observation for me is that policy departments are recruiting too many people who wan to actually deliver on the ground services or spend their time changing the policy landscape. Truth is that the big policy department do very little grass roots programs delivery and policy is increasingly driven by putting the flesh on the bones of policy reforms that have been recommended by an external review.

People joining these large departments should be told that they will largely been providing financial oversight and management of programs, not out there on the ground helping Joe public.

In summary – too many square pegs trying to work in round holes.

I think it depends on where you work and the culture of the Department. I have worked in some horrible workplaces in teh APS which caused me to take 4 months off stress leave, in others I have jumped out of bed happy to be going to work.

I have found similar in my non-APS workplaces as well, And I have been working for 20 odd years now (actually 26. I feel old all of a sudden).

Everytime I feel the workplace is not working for me I put a lot of effort in getting out of the position.

As with everywork place, it’s not the work, the people you work with that make or break a good experience.

On teh other hand working here is 1,000 times better then when I was in the Army. That was just a horrible experience from the start.

I joined the APS 2 years ago after having spent over 8 in the private sector and I’ve wanted to return to the private sector ever since. A young family and a set of golden hand cuffs prevent me from doing so.
Overall the area I work in is devoid of bullying and most of the managers are family oriented. However, when you have SES officers delaying the signing of paperwork they’d received weeks before a deadline and then returning it with a request for re-work a day before the deadline, it causes a high level of frustration and people having to work longer hours than necessary.

On a Friday most of the staff are still at work past 5pm, in the private sector at 5pm we would have been onto our third beer at the pub. My greatest challenge with the APS is the waste, red tape and blatant mismanagement of tax payer dollars.
Projects which could be streamlined and performed on a budget of $30k to $40k are instead costing $300k to $400k, projects run for 12 to 18 months and require a team of 5 instead of a couple of months and a team of 1 or 2.

Projects that will blatantly fail and have no hope of achieving the goals that are being set are continued, because we have to be seen to be doing something. If this is democracy and accountability at work, I would hate to think…

Yes it does, someone very close to me has just come out of the Canberra hospital mental health unit, after suffering a mental breakdown from the stress of working in a policy area of public service. They were becoming highly paranoid and have now been diagnosed with bipolar. From what I heard the main cause was sever mismanagement and bullying. I think the problem is that there needs to be more attention paid to people who adversely effect the work environment as well as on productivity, since the former will be a detriment to the latter. After all this person now has to take several months off work.

BerraBoy68 said :

I believe that the pressure to perform and deliver outcomes despite staffing and finding cuts just makes the issue worse.
.

Yeah, people would be much better off in nice cushy jobs in the coalmines, factory floors, or other areas of private enterprise where there is no performance monitoring, productivity measures, or pressure to be actually gainful.

My experience of the APS and ACTGS are summed up neatly by the Peter Principle: People will rise within a heirachy until they reach their level of incompetence. The APS and ACTGS both need lancing.

1) Have me and my friends and family had a bad run?

Sounds like it to me. I think it depends largely on the workplace. I think making generalisations about multiple organisations that employ 200,000 people is always going to see some extremes on all sides. I’ve seen some very good supportive environments in the APS – i’ve also seen some sweatshops that treat people badly. But I dont blame the APS – there are individuals who badly behave – just like they do in small and large provate sector companies.

2) Is the APS actually a workers paradise, but we just haven’t been in the right place at the right time, or is it really as bad as it seems from every piece of evidence I can collect.

What agencies are we talking about here? Is there a common theme/suspect? Some agencies have a history of poor management and bullying. It’s been largely well documented and in some instances, policies and programs have been put in place to deal with it. Other agencies it still remains an issue. I dont think bullying is tolerated in either the APS or the private sector.

3) Are there any happy APS employees out there?
Two on this side. My wife and I are happy – although there are plenty of days that id rather be spending doing something else. But which job isnt like that? By in large the job pays well, is intellectually challenging and can be a decent way to spend ones time. I get decent satisfaction of the job that ive done and in some instances the difference Ive made. Sometimes the job (im in policy) is stressful and demanding. Sometimes its outrageous (see Hollowman). But it’s the only thing ive been ever good at.

Finally, it’s a shame some people have had a bad experience with the APS. Some of the jobs ive been in have been fantastic and ive met some amazing talented people. I wish more would be done to keep some of the good people and get rid some of the problem makers, more so if they are in the SES.

Can we name names?

I worked for a few years for the ATO. Worst experience of my life. Toxic culture,constant bullying, personal denigration, even physical violence. I watched quite a few people go to pieces in my time there.

Luckily all Departments aren’t the same. Generally happy where I am. You just have to be able to blank out the daily inane conversations about babies and what type of f***ing blinds people should buy.

I spent 3 years working under a nightmare supervisor… she was a bully and had me on the verge of tears almost weekly. She made me feel useless, she would micro-manage everything I did and even when I found more efficient ways of doing things she would argue with me and make me feel stupid.

Everyone knew, but nobody did anything. I honestly felt like there was nothing I could do and that if I complained it would just get worse. In that time, I used up all my sick leave because I didn’t want to come to work, I ended up having to use my annual leave or taking it out of my pay. It impacted other parts of my life as well, I used to take my frustration out on my family, I would go out a lot on the weekends, sometimes even on a week night and go to work on 2 hours sleep. There was a lot of alcohol and drug experimentation in that time. I tried to seperate work from my home life but when you’re stuck with someone like that for 80% of your week, it affects you in every way. Reading that back now, it seems insane that one person could drive you to behave in such an extreme way, but I was quite depressed and lonely and I felt trapped.

Even people who worked near her, location-wise, not even WITH her, ended up moving away after a few months because of her horrible attitude and the way she spoke down to people. I discovered one day that a girl who worked in my position before me was reduced to tears daily and left after only two weeks with severe anxiety and other problems.

I finally managed to get out and I moved to another area almost 2 years ago. Now that I’m a part of a close team that values, respects, encourages and suppports each other, everything is back on track. I don’t dread going to work everyday, I don’t need to walk on eggshells or feel inadequate. The public service is not something I want to be doing for the rest of my life, but being 25 with a really good salary, I’m using it to fund study in a completely different field and then hopefully at some point I’ll be able to say goodbye. Some days it can be soul-crushing with slow boring days, but not nearly as bad as it was for me working with that woman.

Some areas are good, some are really bad. I hope it gets better for your wife, OP.

I survived the APS to escape to better pay and conditions in the private sector however I still know many people, including my wife, who are staff.

I found that the biggest issues causing psych problems are bullying/harrassment and crap management. The APS is still very much a place where its all about who you know, not what you know. Add to this that shit hiring procedures (especially selection criteria and a recruitment process that can take months) drives away many high performing people in their field because it is not worth the hassle. I have been asked several times to apply to certain positions but refuse to as I hate selection criteria and refuse to write it. Employ me based on my skills and experience not on my ability to answer inane questions that have nothing to do with the job you are advertising.

It doesn’t help that there is so much deadwood and people who are crap at their jobs and the process to get rid of them is too difficult to bother with.

In my experience with both the public service and private sector (and the academic sector, which is a little “special” itself), I don’t think that the public service is necessarily worse… but… it certainly is different. One of those differences relates to how hard it can be to get rid of someone.

Specifically, in my experience one worker who (in my opinion, due to her own mental illness) treated people terribly, causing some to quit, some to break down, and at least one to tell her how he felt loudly, and using language well outside the public service standard. Any where else she would have been sacked, but here she was promoted away… 🙁

You get dicks in any industry. Being in private enterprise is no protection from them. Ive worked in both and theres pros and cons both ways.

Some people do just like to bitch about work too so dont assume just because you hear lots of stories that that proves something

Without wanting to be unkind, I’ve seen over the years in the same workplace some people coping very well with certain working conditions, and others not coping at all. It might just be a horses for courses thing – personally I thrive on deadlines, having lots of work and having things turn up out of the blue but I know others who prefer to know what their day will look like before they get there and get flummoxed by changes of plans. Not better, not worse, just different.

I think it depends on the department. There is definitely a strong culture in each and sometimes this can be toxic. I have worked in 7 departments so far and have a pretty good overview of public service cultures.

Policy departments are definitely the worst to work in – the executive and people beneath are under enormous pressure to deliver what the Minister wants, even if it is completely ridiculous and unachievable. This results in the promotion of people who are willing to do whatever it takes to please their boss – no matter what the consequences are. The ability to give sensible policy advice is definitely not an asset and you don’t get kudos for having a different opinion.

The absolute worst place I have ever worked is the Federal Department of Health. I think this is probably due to the fact they are a policy department which does practically no policy implementation – they are even further removed from the results of their work than a normal department. When I worked there a lot of my colleagues were on stress leave because it was so awful. I had to quit my job because otherwise I would have gone mad.

I now work for a non-policy department and the difference is amazing. People in general have a lot of pride in their work, and even if they are not happy, there is still the sense that what they are doing is worthwhile.

I started off feeling sympathetic to your family’s plight. Then it seemed your post turned a bit narky, so maybe I think you’re family is just more prone to mental illness.

I work in the APS. There’s stress occasionally. Its fine.

It depends where in the APS you work, the department and the attitude of your management line.

I work in the private sector, but spend most of my time sitting with various departments. As an outsider looking in, there are a few obvious problems:
1) There is a widespread attitude of having to please all of the people all of the time. Management of stakeholders is often poor, and people get upset as a result.
2) There is too much bullshit. There are lots of pubes who insist on having their ideas, their problems, opinions, etc heard by all and sundry. This is usually a waste of time and achieves nothing. Many managers and execs feel the need to indulge this, and this makes the problem worse.
3) Lack of performance is not dealt with effectively. I’ve met pubes who do less than nothing, cause problems, waste resources, etc, but it all seems too difficult to deal with. This drags down those who do want to get stuff done.
4) There is too much process. Some process is needed to control a workplace, but many departments I have worked with have way too much, and it slows things down and pisses off those who want to get stuff done.

These are just my general observations, and obviously do not apply to all departments all the time.

All workplaces have their pros and cons, the trick is to work out which pros matter and which cons you can live with, and find an organisation that suits.

pink little birdie said :

I love my job and department.
Every workplace has issues all depends on the people. I’ve worked in negative workplaces in both public and private and it’s usually specific people that make workplaces a terrible, stress causing place to work.
I don’t hear of many (any) people going on stress leave from my department but then we aren’t a policy department.

+1

I’ve worked in both the public and private sectors and for the most part I’ve been happier in the public sector. It’s probable your wife just works in a very dysfunctional area. If she hasn’t already she could talk to the EAP and the Union might even be able to help.

It can, yes. Several years ago, I suffered a breakdown caused by a number of things but it was undoubtedly brought on by stress, anxiety and depression. I worked though it refusing to go n medication but it was a tough time for me and my family.

As I’m open about this (hiding that it happened just creates a stigma) I’ve had loads of public servants, including the odd very senior one, call me aside to confide that it’s happened to them in the past too. The saddest bit to me is that, in almost every case, they’ve said that they’re still on medication after several years. Some have said they can’t live without it.

I believe that the pressure to perform and deliver outcomes despite staffing and finding cuts just makes the issue worse.

BTW: I’m typing this at home as I’m off this week after feeling the symptoms coming back. Despite usually loving my job – I’ve had a few very stressful weeks caused by workplace bullying and harassment.

> Does the public service drive employees mad?

They definitely drive The RiotACT mad.

You’re definitely onto something here, LSWCHP. My wife (and my extension, my married life) has also taken severe hits as a result of her working in the APS. The stress levels, bullying and narcissistic management practices have led to increased anxiety attacks and physical ailments.

Maybe it’s only certain departments, as I know other APS staff who don’t seem to have these troubles, but I certainly believe there’s some real, dark and toxic issues that need to be addressed.

I love my job and department.
Every workplace has issues all depends on the people. I’ve worked in negative workplaces in both public and private and it’s usually specific people that make workplaces a terrible, stress causing place to work.
I don’t hear of many (any) people going on stress leave from my department but then we aren’t a policy department.