Epic failure at the non-smoking prison.

I’ve encountered more of it than you ever will

Both sides make good points i just hope that any of you for human rights of criminals still feel the same if god forbid that you or any one close to you becomes a victim of a murder, rapist, child malestor, voilent assult, or any other serious crime.

And for the record I couldn’t care less about my lack of spelling and crap.

“Please tell me which countries in the Middle East are governed by a functioning democracy ?”

“Lebanon, Egypt, UAE, Saudi Arabia, Palestine, need I go on? “

Your ignorance regarding the Middle East is astounding aa.

There is no such country called Palestine, have you not been paying attention for the last 60 years. I guess you mean the Palestinian Territories, elections where held in 2005 and 2006 but they are hardly a showcase for democracy in action. Do some reading on Hamas and Fatah, functioning democracy does not involve armed conflict between two rival political groups.

Lebanon, they came so close, so very very sad. Syria, Iran and Hezbollah. Bastards all.

United Arab Emirates has restrictions on the right to association, the right to free speech, the right to a free press and the right to choose your own religion. The states record in regards to child labour is disgracefull, homosexuals are regularly jailed and beaten and women are so discriminated against in the workplace that it makes Iron bar Tuckey look like a feminist. You call that a functioning democracy ?

Egypt is the closest thing to a functioning democracy in your list, but only because the rest are so dismal.

Then we come to Saudi Arabia. A democratic jewel in the Middle East. The light upon the hill. Two words. Women’s Suffrage…. and then all the rest. To call Saudi Arabia a democracy….. one of the worst countries with regard to women’s human rights, you must be either very ignorant or a pig.

vg said :

have you ever put anyone in prison, or had someone go to prison for something they did to you.

Good points VG. Someone is I know half way through a 2 year custodial sentence because a mate and I brought his crimes to the attention of the authorities. I know he’s being punished and I feel no remorse for helping in some small way for his being there. I also doubt he’ll re-offend on his release.

BTW: moderation sux. Been there, don’t want to go back. Don’t try and fight the white aa.

aa said :

go for it, it will just show how childish you really are. Typical dictator mentality, argue with me and you’re gone. My way or see you later. What next, you’re going to make me start every comment with “johnyboy the great”?

His site, his rules. And this is coming from a guy in moderation right now.

BTW aa, have you ever put anyone in prison, or had someone go to prison for something they did to you. You talk all about the ‘rights’ they take from people (which is a fallacy), have you been the subject of said rights violations (and copping a smack in the mouth for being gobby isn’t a rights violation).

Have you been inside a proper max security prison and seen what ‘luxury’ they enjoy?

I’m not sure of what the solution is, but I’m pretty sure eating porridge and breaking rocks isn’t it

I’m sorry astrojax, but I find no mitigation for criminal actions in your reply. While I agree that crims may act in a different way to us for a given stimulus, they still have the capacity for logical thought, for questioning, for ethical and moral judgement*.

To go down your road would mean that we could treat crims as like animals, and therefore in extremis, humanely put them to sleep.

*Not those mentally ill or intellectually impaired.
But what percentage of crims are we talking about here? 10%?

not necessarily pommy b – and waht i was alluding to wit the dog thing is that animals, and we are those, act in response to stimuli, depending on the behavioural aspects we encompass; so a child or a dog or a dim (illiterate, slow, mentally deficient, etc) person can also respond to a situation in a way you or i might not. which is the point about the drivers of criminal behaviour.

sometimes, it is a ‘rational’ response to a perceived situation: gov’t sucks and put me in a difficult situation, i will take from those that i perceive to have it easier than me.

no real intentions to curtail ‘human rights’ there, but other reasons… something to ponder, eh aa?

I would argue that while some criminals (drug dealers perhaps) KNOW what they are doing to be illegal, they wouldn’t necessarily believe it to me immoral.

Back on topic peter.

interesting thing, but why do they cut off the right hand? because then they have to use the “unclean” hand in all day to day activities. In the desert, you have two hands, and no toilet paper…

you can just see the roll call in a jail in the uae… all criminals raise their right hands… oh. wait.

astrojax said :

also, get off this trip about ‘well the robber/murderer/etc didn’t respect the victims’ human rights so they deserve none’, f’fark’s sake. do you not have any understanding as to what drives criminal behaviour – even an inkling?

do you own a dog?

False analogy, dogs act on instinct, they are not rationalising thinkers, with a sense of morality, as humans are. Criminals act against what they KNOW to be moral, no matter how dumb they are.

aa said :

again, where did i say it causes it?????

johnboy, how did you come to conclution that I was a criminal? Cause Im saying prisoners have a better life than soldiers out on the field? What is the difference between our SAS in Afphan or Iraq and the prisoners that are staying in the 5 star prison with no bars on their windows? At least the prisoners here get to see their family. Oh, and they also get to see their wife/husband, and they have picnic days once a month with their family, unlimited phone calls, etc etc.

*inserts two cents …*

The difference between those in the military who endure hardship do so for many reasons, in my experience it’s mainly to get a sense of adventure and do something different to a regular 9-5 job. Living rough in the field is the part of the job that must grunts love best.

Prisoners, on the other hand, go to gaol against their will. I’d imagine its no fun being locked up in building with other prisoners ready to crack your skull for the slightest insult. Heaven help you if you happen to have a pretty face. For my money, prison should be both a deterrent (e.g. it takes you away from your family) and an opportunity (i.e. provide an opportunity to learn some life skills or a trade).

As for the UAE etc.. Cutting off peoples hands, executions etc. are barbaric and I for one want no part of such stuff.

and I meant to write victim.. just in case someone was going to accuse me of being a criminal due to my lack of literacy skills 😉

FC said :

aa said :

nyssa76 said :

Screw it. Let’s not have gaols at all. Let’s let them all out and treat them with ‘love and kindness’.

That’s what most people here want. Look at that poor girl that was raped and they recorded it on video in sydney a couple of years ago. One of the offenders released a rap song yesterday making fun of the girl and being proud of what he did. He’s really rehabilitated hasn’t he!

Anyone who thinks these people should have all these luxuries obviously have never had anyone they know killed, or raped or house burned down on purpose. When they do, watch how quickly they change.

Well actually I have been a victom of violent crime, but I will disagree with you.

As have I – well said.

aa said :

nyssa76 said :

Screw it. Let’s not have gaols at all. Let’s let them all out and treat them with ‘love and kindness’.

That’s what most people here want. Look at that poor girl that was raped and they recorded it on video in sydney a couple of years ago. One of the offenders released a rap song yesterday making fun of the girl and being proud of what he did. He’s really rehabilitated hasn’t he!

Anyone who thinks these people should have all these luxuries obviously have never had anyone they know killed, or raped or house burned down on purpose. When they do, watch how quickly they change.

Well actually I have been a victom of violent crime, but I will disagree with you.

UAE still have a prime minister, parliment, ministers, etc.

so does iran.

as jb points out, it is the power of the institutions that matter.

also, on your so-called 5 star prison with no bars on their windows? (apart from where you derive the star rating, as if it is some sort of official ranking) this is a prison, not an hotel. in an hotel, ‘guests’ (note, not inmates) have the liberty to come and go as they please and have their whims catered to.

try getting some porridge time and asking for a warden to bring you a smoked salmon salad and a chilled chardonnay and see what you get.

also, get off this trip about ‘well the robber/murderer/etc didn’t respect the victims’ human rights so they deserve none’, f’fark’s sake. do you not have any understanding as to what drives criminal behaviour – even an inkling?

do you own a dog?

aa said :

go for it, it will just show how childish you really are. Typical dictator mentality, argue with me and you’re gone. My way or see you later. What next, you’re going to make me start every comment with “johnyboy the great”?

It is like watching a train wreck in slow motion.

Those of you laura norder bores still out there should consider that you’re sharing space with aa and his desire to take Australia forward to the nirvana that is the gulf states.

go for it, it will just show how childish you really are. Typical dictator mentality, argue with me and you’re gone. My way or see you later. What next, you’re going to make me start every comment with “johnyboy the great”?

oh, and in UAE they have the same power as UK. Do some research before stating facts like that.

http://www.uaeinteract.com/government/political_system.asp

You’re always free to start your own website aa.

But arguing with me on site admin is a quick way to get into moderation.

Let’s see how smart you are.

aa said :

colourful sydney racing identity said :

“So you’re saying that more literate people commit crime than iliterate! hmm, look at the percentage of white criminals in prison compared to drug dealers, murderers, rapists, terrorist, etc etc.”

And folks there we have it, todays undercover racist! Thanks for watching and stay tuned for the news.

If you read a couple of paragraphs down, you would have noticed that i forgot to put COLLAR after white, so either read the whole thing or you’ll be in the same category at johnboy and have a case of selective reading.

Nothing selective in what I read, that was a direct quote. I did not see your later post until after I had finished my post – accordingly I would like to retract my statement and the good news is that todays undercover racist is still out there!

aa, it’s called sarcasm.

Everyone on RA knows I’d rather see repeat offenders labotomised than be returned to society to continue to offend.

colourful sydney racing identity said :

aa – if life in prison is so much better than being in in the army, why do people enlist?

They don’t! The rate of enlisting is dropping. That why they’re spending a fortune to try to get people to enlist!

so johnboy, you talk about dictators, then put the line “I’m going to have to mod him soon unless he grows a clue”? Just cause someone doesn’t agree with you, you “mod” them! Hmm, sounds like a dictator to me.

aa – if life in prison is so much better than being in in the army, why do people enlist?

colourful sydney racing identity said :

“So you’re saying that more literate people commit crime than iliterate! hmm, look at the percentage of white criminals in prison compared to drug dealers, murderers, rapists, terrorist, etc etc.”

And folks there we have it, todays undercover racist! Thanks for watching and stay tuned for the news.

If you read a couple of paragraphs down, you would have noticed that i forgot to put COLLAR after white, so either read the whole thing or you’ll be in the same category at johnboy and have a case of selective reading.

I think there are a few contributors to this thread who would benefit from reading about who Alexander Maconochie was….”For the term of his natural life” by Marcus Clarke would be a good place to start.

Or for those with shorter attention spans:
http://adbonline.anu.edu.au/biogs/A020160b.htm

There is a difference between luxury and rehabilitation.

I would like to see more money spent on rehabilitation, and proper support programs for people on release.

I saw an interesting show about recidivism, and Victoria has a much lesser rate of reoffending, due to support programs available after prison. NSW just lets people out of gaol at midnight and they are on their own, and larger numbers reoffend.

Even if prison was a 5 star experience, I still wouldn’t want to go there. Imagine the neighbours.

The difference between the UAE and the UK is not what institutions they have, but whether those institutions have real power.

Anyway, someone else argue with aa as I’m going to have to mod him soon unless he grows a clue.

“So you’re saying that more literate people commit crime than iliterate! hmm, look at the percentage of white criminals in prison compared to drug dealers, murderers, rapists, terrorist, etc etc.”

And folks there we have it, todays undercover racist! Thanks for watching and stay tuned for the news.

nyssa76 said :

Screw it. Let’s not have gaols at all. Let’s let them all out and treat them with ‘love and kindness’.

That’s what most people here want. Look at that poor girl that was raped and they recorded it on video in sydney a couple of years ago. One of the offenders released a rap song yesterday making fun of the girl and being proud of what he did. He’s really rehabilitated hasn’t he!

Anyone who thinks these people should have all these luxuries obviously have never had anyone they know killed, or raped or house burned down on purpose. When they do, watch how quickly they change.

Ok, what is the difference between the way UAE is run and say the way the united kingdom is run? UAE still have a prime minister, parliment, ministers, etc.

Screw it. Let’s not have gaols at all. Let’s let them all out and treat them with ‘love and kindness’.

again, where did i say it causes it?????

johnboy, how did you come to conclution that I was a criminal? Cause Im saying prisoners have a better life than soldiers out on the field? What is the difference between our SAS in Afphan or Iraq and the prisoners that are staying in the 5 star prison with no bars on their windows? At least the prisoners here get to see their family. Oh, and they also get to see their wife/husband, and they have picnic days once a month with their family, unlimited phone calls, etc etc.

aa fails the test of understanding a functional democracy.

views on the penal system invalidated.

phototext said :

“Most countries in the Middle East aren’t run by dictators! Not sure where you get your stats from. There might be a couple that are, but the majority aren’”

Ha !

Please tell me which countries in the Middle East are governed by a functioning democracy ?

Israel is about it. You could throw Turkey in I suppose, although I think Turkey is more part of Europe than the Middle East.

Lebanon, Egypt, UAE, Saudi Arabia, Palestine, need I go on? Or are countries that are run by monarchy as being run by dictators????

there is a link, yes, but that doesn’t indicate a cause.
It could be that there is also a link between people who suffered abuse and neglet as children with people who grow up to be adults with low literacy skills.

OK aa, now you’re just demonstrating your own lack of intelligence. You’ll find soldiers are on pretty hefty loadings when in the field.

And what people choose to take on as part of their career is now a standard to be punitively enforced?

very low grade thinking.

by your statistics I think you must be a criminal.

white collar, sorry, it was a typo

“Most countries in the Middle East aren’t run by dictators! Not sure where you get your stats from. There might be a couple that are, but the majority aren’”

Ha !

Please tell me which countries in the Middle East are governed by a functioning democracy ?

Israel is about it. You could throw Turkey in I suppose, although I think Turkey is more part of Europe than the Middle East.

So you’re either a public servant or in the media?

Ummm, well, you are on his news and opinion website. So I guess that means JB is in the media….

correlation does not equal causation aa.

illiterate people are, on average, less intelligent.

Less intelligent people are more likely to get themselves caught.

This does not mean we should not show them some compassion while trying to protect society IMHO.

Depending on the crime, no i don’t think they should have any rights. If our soldiers have to live in tents and have minimum to eat and drink, why should criminals? They didn’t care about the other persons rights when they killed them, or raped them, or bashed them, so why should we?

I’d be interested in the rate of repeat offenders in Australia, does anyone have it?

4, So you’re saying that more literate people commit crime than iliterate! hmm, look at the percentage of white criminals in prison compared to drug dealers, murderers, rapists, terrorist, etc etc.

on second reading this doesn’t make sense. comparet the percentage of white criminals in prison to drug dealers etc? um..white prisoners are drug dealers, murderers, rapists etc..
Did you mean to look at the percentage of white criminals versus, say, non-white criminals.
In which case it still doesn’t make sense..

oh and there’s a link between illiteracy and high crime.

http://www.edjj.org/litSkills.html
http://www.fightingcrime.ca/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=29&Itemid=37

Here’s a good one http://www.quillnet.org/facts.htm#7

Now considering 65% of inmates have low literacy skills. Canada’s literacy rate is 99%. They have roughly 33Million people living there. So by that rate, only 320,000 are illiterate.

So by those numbers you can clearly see a link between literacy and crime.

1. So you believe in human rights for some people, unless you’re a criminal? but aren’t criminals still human?

4. It didn’t say that more literate people commit more crime, it just said that they are often harder to catch and convict – which might play a role in your stats on iliteracy and crime.

johnboy said :

Or to put it in some other ways:

1) If you hate human rights so much why don’t you move to a country where they don’t have any?

2) If you believe the official statistics of miserable dictatorships I’ve got a bridge to sell you.

3) If you don’t think you’re any better than incarcerated criminals, and thus unwilling to treat them better than they might have treated others, should we be locking you up to protect the community?

4) Literate people do commit a great many crimes, but they tend to be harder to figure out and catch. The ongoing liberty of financial advisers being a good case in point.

1, criminals are the ones who don’t beleive in other peoples human rights, not me. So since they don’t believe in them, by your point they should be somewhere without any. So prisons should have very little human rights.

2, Most countries in the Middle East aren’t run by dictators! Not sure where you get your stats from. There might be a couple that are, but the majority aren’t!

3, Where did I state that Im better off in prison? I said most criminals are better off in prison than at home (and the homeless).

4, So you’re saying that more literate people commit crime than iliterate! hmm, look at the percentage of white criminals in prison compared to drug dealers, murderers, rapists, terrorist, etc etc.

I think you’d be a good reporter, cause you have selective reading. Reading a couple of words from each sentence and arguing it is exactly what the media and pollies do. So you’re either a public servant or in the media?

Re: comment 29. Mutley…. remove condom from pack. Add water (careful not to overfill). Hold condom so that it forms a convex shape. Place condom betwixt direct sunlight and object to be ignited. (In this case tea).

I too was interested, and sorry to say didn’t guess your answer. It sounds mighty plausable, at least in summer, and I shall have to try it sometime.

(careful not to overfill)

Overfilling might make it useless for lighting a fire, but unlikely to pop them. You can put a *lot* of water in one.

Ian said :

I’m very impressed by the positives the government is taking from this experience though.

She (John Hargreaves spin doctor) said the alarm system was being tested through ”real life events”.

”In complexes like this the alarm system often requires fine tuning,” she said.

Now given the fact that the jail was open six months ago, and that people were being paid to work there in much of that time, you’d think surely they might have actually used some of that time to test a few things. What were they doing in their 6 months sans prisoners? Sitting around on their arses!

I agree.

aa – I don’t believe Wikipedia gives an accurate analysis of your argument here. I also think you should take careful note of Astrojax’s remarks about lower reporting rates of crime.

If all else fails, take Johnboy’s advice in point 1.

Re: comment 29. Mutley…. remove condom from pack. Add water (careful not to overfill). Hold condom so that it forms a convex shape. Place condom betwixt direct sunlight and object to be ignited. (In this case tea).

** The tea should first be removed from the bag and re-wrapped in ciggy paper. (If no cig paper is available, Bibles will suffice.

Tomorrow….explosives using only a condom, prison van fuel and bird droppings.

phototext said :

Rights aside, any public servant who thinks that they will be able to enforce a strict smoking policy onto people who obviously break the law is an idiot.

Any callout fees should be deducted from the public servants wage who came up with the idea to punish them for being stupid and not thinking it through.

There are OH&S issues involved with allowing people to smoke in unventilated areas around both other prisoners and prison employees.

If there are opportunities for smokers to do so outside or in specially provided places that is where it should be done.

There would appear to be a number of privileges that could be removed for those not willing to toe the line. Maybe a naughty spot.

Or to put it in some other ways:

1) If you hate human rights so much why don’t you move to a country where they don’t have any?

2) If you believe the official statistics of miserable dictatorships I’ve got a bridge to sell you.

3) If you don’t think you’re any better than incarcerated criminals, and thus unwilling to treat them better than they might have treated others, should we be locking you up to protect the community?

4) Literate people do commit a great many crimes, but they tend to be harder to figure out and catch. The ongoing liberty of financial advisers being a good case in point.

They solve something like 98% of crimes commited there.

this is a bit of an ambit claim isn’t it? “rarely any crime” indeed!

middle eastern countries are well known for a culture of non-reporting of crimes and letting people sort out their ‘issues’ among themselves. police forces, and indeed the whole justice system, in many middle eastern countries are quite different from ours where we apparently enjoy more, certainly different freedoms and have a different cultural basis for our society, so i am not inclined to be swayed by your arguments.

neither does statements like, ‘they took peoples rights away, so they shouldn’t be entitled to civil and political rights‘ stand up to scrutiny, as johnboy astutely pointed out.

there is a fundamental issue you seem to miss, in that the criminal justice system in australia serves to judge offenders and seeks to rehabilitate them as a default course of action (while of course also meeting community expectations that some appropriate punishment be meted out), which is why sentences can vary so much for the same offence between different offenders and different circumstances of committing it.

do you own a dog?

They also have the highest rate of catching the criminals. They solve something like 98% of crimes commited there.

It often helps if you solve the crime by catching the correct person. Countries with exceptionally high crime clearance rates tend to ignore that part.

you might also like to go to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_murder_rate

Read the list from the bottom up and you will notice a lot of middle eastern countries there. Mind you, the Lebanon stats are from 1999 (during the civil war) so that shouldn’t be counted.

But hey, cause the media shows you the middle east is one big desert full of criminals, it must be true.

aa said :

If people knew that prison is 4 walls and a bucket, they will think twice about offending cause they know their life will be hell. Specially if they’d been to prison before, they’d never be repeat offenders cause they never want to go back there again.

Of course, people think rationally and consider the consequences when they’re about to commit a crime…

Literate people do commit crimes, but the rate is very low! You can’t compare them to the amount of iliterates that commit.

As for crime rates, do a google search and you’ll see that murder and rape is very rare there (not saying it doesn’t happen). Or go to http://www.nationmaster.com and go country by country and you will see Australia has a much higher rate of rape and murder than most countries there.

“Middle east has the lowest crime rates in the world!”

I’m dubious about your statement.

But, if you think that it is appropriate for a woman to be publicly flogged for leaving her house with a male that is not her husband nor a blood relative perhaps you should move there.

You take away all privelages from the get go and then you have no method to control their behaviour…. except by brutality.

How about they start with no priviliges and with good behaviour they are granted them. this would encourage them to behave themselves.

Also, #21 – how the hell do you light a teabag with a water-filled condom?

aa said :

Middle east has the lowest crime rates in the world! They also have the highest rate of catching the criminals. They solve something like 98% of crimes commited there. There was an article about it in the SMH a while ago how Australia was at like 5%, middle east was at like 98%. Reason being is there’s rarely any crime. Not counting Iraq though, that’s a different story.

As for America, well considering they’re literacy is worse than some 3rd world counties, that could explain their high crime rates.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_literacy_rate

What???

First question – can you please source something that says the Middle East has one of the lowest crime rates for murder or other offences that may attract capital punishment.

Second question – again, please find a source that attributes the high success rates to the low amount of crime.

Third question – are you suggesting that literate people will not commit violent crime? Have you heard of Ted Bundy, Sam Berkowitz, Ed Gein etc.?

Final note – grammar Nazi.
They’re – should be their

Middle east has the lowest crime rates in the world! They also have the highest rate of catching the criminals. They solve something like 98% of crimes commited there. There was an article about it in the SMH a while ago how Australia was at like 5%, middle east was at like 98%. Reason being is there’s rarely any crime. Not counting Iraq though, that’s a different story.

As for America, well considering they’re literacy is worse than some 3rd world counties, that could explain their high crime rates.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_literacy_rate

aa said :

FC, they took peoples rights away, so they shouldn’t be entitled to civil and political rights, or economic and social rights or environment rights.

If people knew that prison is 4 walls and a bucket, they will think twice about offending cause they know their life will be hell. Specially if they’d been to prison before, they’d never be repeat offenders cause they never want to go back there again.

Also, our courts should be harsher when it comes to sentencing. People are commiting more crimes cause they know there a very high chance they’ll get away with it, even if they go to court. They’ll just get a slap on the wrist.

Yes, because the threat of dying has stopped SOOOO many people from committing murder in the USA and parts of the Middle East…

aa said :

FC, they took peoples rights away, so they shouldn’t be entitled to civil and political rights, or economic and social rights or environment rights.

If people knew that prison is 4 walls and a bucket, they will think twice about offending cause they know their life will be hell. Specially if they’d been to prison before, they’d never be repeat offenders cause they never want to go back there again.

Also, our courts should be harsher when it comes to sentencing. People are commiting more crimes cause they know there a very high chance they’ll get away with it, even if they go to court. They’ll just get a slap on the wrist.

I think that Johnboy did well to disclaim this theory by pointing to the american system of the death penality. And now thinking about it, the three strike rule.
If people stopped committing crime because of fear of these harder punishments then how do you explain the massive crime rates in the US??

FC, they took peoples rights away, so they shouldn’t be entitled to civil and political rights, or economic and social rights or environment rights.

If people knew that prison is 4 walls and a bucket, they will think twice about offending cause they know their life will be hell. Specially if they’d been to prison before, they’d never be repeat offenders cause they never want to go back there again.

Also, our courts should be harsher when it comes to sentencing. People are commiting more crimes cause they know there a very high chance they’ll get away with it, even if they go to court. They’ll just get a slap on the wrist.

Er, you all seem to be missing the point – smoking is permissible in certain outside areas of the prison. The problem arises when they are not allowed to smoke inside but still have access to cigarettes.

P1, stopping the flow of tobacco into prison (even if practical) will do nothing to alleviate this situation. They will smoke used tea bags if need be and light it using a waterfilled condom. Now unless you can stop the flow of water and tea bags (condoms are of assistance in stopping the flow of Hep/HIV into the unsuspecting ‘normal’ community when they get out so leave it alone)then you are left with a cheaper alternative. Allow them to buy smokes from the fruit of their labor (except for the heavies who have their own way of harvesting other crim’s fruit) and smoke them in open areas. Penalty for breaking the smoke rules: suspension of the right to buy smokes.

Carrot and stick. (I fear this government is afraid of sticks though.)

There is no right to smoke in ANY government building, why should the crims get a pass on that?

Ok, so you think that once being treated like that, once they are released into the community they are not going to be feeling even more pissed off and angry at a society that they may feel let them down in the first place (if you look at child abuse/neglet rates among adult offenders)
Basic human rights include:
– Civil and political rights such as the right to life, liberty and freedom from torture and slavery, freedom of opinion, expression and religion.
– Economic and social rights such the right to health care, education, work, food and a reasonable standard of living
– Environmental and cultural rights including the right to live in a clean environment protected from destruction and the right to cultural, political and economic development.

As i tried to say on another post
prisons need to go back to the old days 4 walls to look at, a bucket or hole to piss and shit in, an 1 hour outside, and bread and slop , no gyms no t.v no nothing.

Sorry but I don’t believe murders, rapist, violent offenders deserve the high quality care and standards that they receive in prison these days, they only deserve basic human rights water and little food. Thier victims didn’t receive human rights from them when they took their lifes weather it was physically or mentally.

phototext said :

“Take away all their rights in there. Lock them in smaller cells, give them 1 hour of yard time, etc etc, then people will think twice about breaking the law cauase they will hate going to prison.”

If that was the case then the death penalty would be the ultimate incentive to obey the law. But people still break the law in the U.S where the death penalty is carried out.

A practical reason that prisoners are given certain privelages is so that they can be taken away for breaking prison rules. How do you control a population of people who regard the law with contempt, by the exploitation of their self interest.

You take away all privelages from the get go and then you have no method to control their behaviour…. except by brutality.

Also well said..

johnboy said :

aa, we tried being arseholes. The americans still are.

It didn’t work, it doesn’t work.

Why not try something else?

If your life is so impoverished that you need a vicarious thrill in knowing convicted criminals are being harshly treated I’d argue that you need to get out more.

Well said.

People are kidding themselves if they think that going to prison is some kind of luxury. you still don’t get to see your family/friends/loved ones, except for in a visit room, with a guard and other prisoners watching. you still can’t go out and have a dance/beer/bike ride, go to the cinima, take your dog for a walk, go to the beach. You have to eat the food that is served, at the time specified by someone else, AND you have to live with people you have no part in choosing.
While I have known someone who has reported that they didn’t mind being in gaol, as they got off the drugs (took up smoking though), had a routine and other things, when they got out, they certainly didn’t re-offend because they wanted to go back to gaol. They reoffended because of a multiple and complex array of reasons including but not limited to: not knowing any other life than a life of crime/drug dealing, not having skills to be employed, not really having skills to engage with a lot of people from mainstream society, having multiple mental health issues that prevented them from seeing things from the same perspective “healthy” people would, old aquantances still involved in a life of crime and lack of skills being able to say ‘no’ to people, little or no education, little real understanding of other life options being reaslistically attainable to them. The list goes on. This is only one person that I knew, I know that this isn’t the case for everyone. But my point being, it has nothing to do with them being able to have a tv or smoke in gaol.

“Take away all their rights in there. Lock them in smaller cells, give them 1 hour of yard time, etc etc, then people will think twice about breaking the law cauase they will hate going to prison.”

If that was the case then the death penalty would be the ultimate incentive to obey the law. But people still break the law in the U.S where the death penalty is carried out.

A practical reason that prisoners are given certain privelages is so that they can be taken away for breaking prison rules. How do you control a population of people who regard the law with contempt, by the exploitation of their self interest.

You take away all privelages from the get go and then you have no method to control their behaviour…. except by brutality.

On what planet is a nagging wife a light sentence?

aa, we tried being arseholes. The americans still are.

It didn’t work, it doesn’t work.

Why not try something else?

If your life is so impoverished that you need a vicarious thrill in knowing convicted criminals are being harshly treated I’d argue that you need to get out more.

aa I totally agree. Who’d take the chance sleeping rough when you could commit a non violent crime and get a nice warm bed and three meals a day.

I remember a joke in ‘Porridge’ the comedy, in which a bloke had got himself sentenced to jail just so he could have a holiday his nagging wife. With such light sentences being given out these days, perhaps that is what is happening.

Take away all their rights in there. Lock them in smaller cells, give them 1 hour of yard time, etc etc, then people will think twice about breaking the law cauase they will hate going to prison.

While prison is so relaed and easy for them and in some cases a better life for criminals, what would make them fear it?

Here’s an example. If you were homeless, you’re better off going to prision cause you’ll be fed, you’ll have a roof over your head, heating, a bed to sleep in, tv, etc etc. On the streets you’re alone anyway, you don’t have much freedom cause you can’t do anything. So, if i was homeless, i would do what ever i could to get sent to prision.

The problem with taking tv etc etc away from a prison population, because they have abdicated all rights by breaking the law etc etc, is that the staff have to deal with the consequences of such a policy.

It may make everyone else in society feel happy the prisoners have no tv privelages but we don’t have to deal with a bored and often violent people in prisons.

It would be a bitch of a job anyway, why make it even harder for them.

I don’t think they should have the same rights as everyone else. If they cared so much about the rights of people, they wouldn’t have broken the law. Just like they took the rights away from people, their rights should be taken away also. But hey, a murderer or a rapist has the right to watch pay tv, has the right to 3 meals a day, but the general public have to work for it.

Also there was talks about a shooting room. Did they end up getting it? Isn’t the shooting room the government turning a blind eye to drug use? (Im waiting for everyone to jump down my throat on this). Instead of spending money on a shooting room, increase security so people can’t get drugs into the prison.

Does anyone know if they have a sniffer dog (like in the airports) for all visitors to the prison here?

Rights aside, any public servant who thinks that they will be able to enforce a strict smoking policy onto people who obviously break the law is an idiot.

Any callout fees should be deducted from the public servants wage who came up with the idea to punish them for being stupid and not thinking it through.

Isn’t that a bit dramatic, aa? It’s a fundamental right of all humans to burn a piece of toast.

I would have thought that they could stop the flow of *most* tobacco into the prison. While I understand that enterprising people will smuggle anything anywhere, a hit of heroin take up little space, a carton of cigarettes are a little harder to cram up your butt…

once agian with the “human rights”. The prisioners should have rights in prision. The second they took the rights away from people (the reason they’re in there in the first place) they have lost to right to have any rights at all.

Ummm is there no way to control the inflow of smoking materials and lighters/matches??? Oh well…

I’m very impressed by the positives the government is taking from this experience though.

She (John Hargreaves spin doctor) said the alarm system was being tested through ”real life events”.

”In complexes like this the alarm system often requires fine tuning,” she said.

Now given the fact that the jail was open six months ago, and that people were being paid to work there in much of that time, you’d think surely they might have actually used some of that time to test a few things. What were they doing in their 6 months sans prisoners? Sitting around on their arses!

Sooo… someone thought that people that are in jail for breaking the law would follow this rule? Genius!