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Beyond the expected

Fibre to the node

By KT67 8 August 2013 140

Living the Liberal parties future of the NBN, fibre to the node, right now. My ADSL2 speed has received a major rev up with the fibre to the node which has been laid out in the inner north. One can only think how fast an actaul fibre to my house would deliver 🙂

Now all I need is to get my hands on a share of the poor mans gold they are removing from the surrounding streets in the form of huge copper cables.

What’s Your opinion?


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Fibre to the node
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davo101 1:22 pm 06 Sep 13

watto23 said :

I agree that the definition of economic management seems to differ based on the political party. Howard left the country with a surplus but ageing infrastructure and a much smaller tax base due to all the cuts. I’d argue some cuts were necessary

I’d argue that they were not. Howard used Mining Boom Mark I to introduce a number of permanent tax cuts and expand the welfare bill; as a result of which in the down part of the business cycle we’re hopelessly out of balance. Whereas if he’d left thing as they were the system would have worked to balance out the finances. Anyway good thing Messrs Abbot and Hockey are there to sort it all out–couldn’t happen to a nicer bunch of chaps.

CraigT 1:14 pm 06 Sep 13

watto23 said :

But hey it depends on what you think is good economic management. Neither party is better than the other.

The IMF, having analysed the data, says the ALP has proven itself markedly superior on the economic front.

I’m happy to take their word for it.

And when I look at the Liberals’ ridiculous NBN “plan” I feel the IMF are quite credible in their assessment.

watto23 12:57 pm 06 Sep 13

CraigT said :

Grrrr said :

Darkfalz said :

You’ll actually be able to get 100mbit broadband in a couple of years, not in a decade, with the option to upgrade to a higher speed at your own expense if you have a requirement for it

This statement is a pile of crap: The coalition NBN plan is to give average speeds of 50mbit to 90% of subscribers by 2019. The average upload will be only 4mbit. Of the people who get VDSL2, very few will get close to 100mbit, and not that many residences will have VSDL2 in 3 years even if everything goes to plan. Look at MT’s inspiration: BT Infinity. They’re seeing average speeds of under 50mbit..

The coalition “plan”, if you read between the lines, requires the building of many new exchanges, probably a doubling or a tripling of the current number.
All this because they want to carry on with copper, despite the fact it will actually be much more effective and cheaper to just go with fibre right now.

This issue is a good indicator to me for whether the Liberals can be trusted to run the country properly: if their NBN plan is wasteful, inefficient and ineffective, (and bearing in mind the last Liberal government we had was, according to the IMF, the worst example of economic management in this country for many decades), then what other damage are they going to wreak on our economy?

The Libs in QLD managed to double unemployment with their retarded policies, and Abbott is going to do the same nationally – this will inevitably bring on a recession.

I agree that the definition of economic management seems to differ based on the political party. Howard left the country with a surplus but aging infrastructure and a much smaller tax base due to all the cuts. I’d argue some cuts were necessary, but we’d have had the money to build this and fix all the roads 10 years ago if we didn’t have so many tax cuts and welfare payouts to the middle class.
But hey it depends on what you think is good economic management. Neither party is better than the other.

CraigT 8:19 am 06 Sep 13

Grrrr said :

Darkfalz said :

You’ll actually be able to get 100mbit broadband in a couple of years, not in a decade, with the option to upgrade to a higher speed at your own expense if you have a requirement for it

This statement is a pile of crap: The coalition NBN plan is to give average speeds of 50mbit to 90% of subscribers by 2019. The average upload will be only 4mbit. Of the people who get VDSL2, very few will get close to 100mbit, and not that many residences will have VSDL2 in 3 years even if everything goes to plan. Look at MT’s inspiration: BT Infinity. They’re seeing average speeds of under 50mbit..

The coalition “plan”, if you read between the lines, requires the building of many new exchanges, probably a doubling or a tripling of the current number.
All this because they want to carry on with copper, despite the fact it will actually be much more effective and cheaper to just go with fibre right now.

This issue is a good indicator to me for whether the Liberals can be trusted to run the country properly: if their NBN plan is wasteful, inefficient and ineffective, (and bearing in mind the last Liberal government we had was, according to the IMF, the worst example of economic management in this country for many decades), then what other damage are they going to wreak on our economy?

The Libs in QLD managed to double unemployment with their retarded policies, and Abbott is going to do the same nationally – this will inevitably bring on a recession.

JC 7:29 am 06 Sep 13

bigfeet said :

watto23 said :

Agree, its looking likely that the coalition have this election in the bag for the House of reps, but lets wait and see the final margin.

I am quite interested in what happens to those of us in the current NBN roll out areas after this weekend.

If you read back through the thread you will see that I have been having major difficulties in getting NBN to my house (not relevant at this stage). What is relevant however, is that the next appointment I could get for NBN technicians to come to my house is mid October, which is obviously well after the expected change of government.

Now I am keen to have broadband direct to my house, very keen in fact, so I am wondering if the roll out will continue in this area if (when) the government changes.

If it just stops I will be really annoyed because I made all the bookings early, and it is only due to circumstances outside of my control which make me a ‘non-standard” install.

If you are at the point of being connected you will still get connected. I also believe those areas where the contracts for pulling the fibre have been let and work has started will also be safe, so that more or less means anywhere that was due to be live within the next year. Think in Canberra that is most of Belconnen. Hopefully!

Dilandach 11:55 pm 05 Sep 13

bigfeet said :

watto23 said :

Agree, its looking likely that the coalition have this election in the bag for the House of reps, but lets wait and see the final margin.

I am quite interested in what happens to those of us in the current NBN roll out areas after this weekend.

If you read back through the thread you will see that I have been having major difficulties in getting NBN to my house (not relevant at this stage). What is relevant however, is that the next appointment I could get for NBN technicians to come to my house is mid October, which is obviously well after the expected change of government.

Now I am keen to have broadband direct to my house, very keen in fact, so I am wondering if the roll out will continue in this area if (when) the government changes.

If it just stops I will be really annoyed because I made all the bookings early, and it is only due to circumstances outside of my control which make me a ‘non-standard” install.

The contracts for the company doing the construction work was renewed in August for 12 months. So unless there’s some serious legal trickery by the coalition, the construction work will be on going for 11 more months at least.

bigfeet 9:46 pm 05 Sep 13

watto23 said :

Agree, its looking likely that the coalition have this election in the bag for the House of reps, but lets wait and see the final margin.

I am quite interested in what happens to those of us in the current NBN roll out areas after this weekend.

If you read back through the thread you will see that I have been having major difficulties in getting NBN to my house (not relevant at this stage). What is relevant however, is that the next appointment I could get for NBN technicians to come to my house is mid October, which is obviously well after the expected change of government.

Now I am keen to have broadband direct to my house, very keen in fact, so I am wondering if the roll out will continue in this area if (when) the government changes.

If it just stops I will be really annoyed because I made all the bookings early, and it is only due to circumstances outside of my control which make me a ‘non-standard” install.

JC 8:07 pm 05 Sep 13

Dilandach said :

watto23 said :

Agree, its looking likely that the coalition have this election in the bag for the House of reps, but lets wait and see the final margin.

I’d find it likely that there’ll be a few reviews and enquiries a little tweaking and a liberal stamp on it but overall the NBN in its current form will be left. It’ll be trumpeted as the infrastructure that only the coalition could deliver.

I hope you are right and it sounds the libs MO, deliver what Labor promised for $40b, say it saved $50b, when in fact Labor would have only spend $35b anyway.

But that said I reckon we will get what we have been promised as uncle Rupert needs to be paid back somehow for his support. The Fraudband it is a lot harder to deliver good quality pay TV (and FTA for that matter too) compared to Labors NBN. I said the day Fraudband was announced from Fox studios that Rupert was behind the policy.

Dilandach 6:06 pm 05 Sep 13

watto23 said :

Agree, its looking likely that the coalition have this election in the bag for the House of reps, but lets wait and see the final margin.

I’d find it likely that there’ll be a few reviews and enquiries a little tweaking and a liberal stamp on it but overall the NBN in its current form will be left. It’ll be trumpeted as the infrastructure that only the coalition could deliver.

watto23 3:46 pm 05 Sep 13

Darkfalz said :

The election is over. The coalition will, by their timetable, have connected most of the country to their NBN network before the next election, which Labor is unlikely to win anyway. You’ll actually be able to get 100mbit broadband in a couple of years, not in a decade, with the option to upgrade to a higher speed at your own expense if you have a requirement for it – as should be the case. I honestly don’t understand your hyperventilation.

Agree, its looking likely that the coalition have this election in the bag for the House of reps, but lets wait and see the final margin. Abbott has made a lot of promises, that he may not have any way of keeping. I believe there is a strong chance that we could be back to a labor gov in 3 years, if the boats don’t get stopped and trust me, both parties have no idea regarding stopping boats, they seem to think these people actually read up about local government policy…

There is also a strong chance of a double dissolution election on the carbon tax. We’ll see what the makeup of the senate is. And unlike when Abbott was opposition leader pushing for a double dissolution to get in earlier, It may not help him if he has to call one, especially with the smallish 8.33% quotas needed to gain a senate seat in all states.

Abbott is the ticking time bomb and the opposition will keep prodding. He was installed to lose the last unwinnable election, but labor self destructed and gave him a chance.

Grrrr 1:27 pm 05 Sep 13

Sorry. minimum speeds of 50mbit to 90% – IE, averaging well under 100mbit.

Too little, too late.

Grrrr 1:21 pm 05 Sep 13

Darkfalz said :

You’ll actually be able to get 100mbit broadband in a couple of years, not in a decade, with the option to upgrade to a higher speed at your own expense if you have a requirement for it

This statement is a pile of crap: The coalition NBN plan is to give average speeds of 50mbit to 90% of subscribers by 2019. The average upload will be only 4mbit. Of the people who get VDSL2, very few will get close to 100mbit, and not that many residences will have VSDL2 in 3 years even if everything goes to plan. Look at MT’s inspiration: BT Infinity. They’re seeing average speeds of under 50mbit.

I’m willing to bet that negotiations for with Telstra to assume control of the copper cause issues that delay things further.

Then your talk of direct fibre from the node omits to mention it’s going to be so expensive (especially compared to GPON) that it will be priced out of reach. The Node architecture isn’t suited to it, and if you’re going to roll fibre down the street why wouldn’t you just roll out GPON in that street for everyone? If you’re going to put GPON in a few streets, why wouldn’t you just roll it out properly – like we’re doing now?

In dozens of cities around Australia, people have been getting 100mbit downstream on HFC and GPON for years. Stop telling us what speeds we do and don’t need. People want FTTH and are prepared to pay for it.

Barcham 12:25 pm 05 Sep 13

The argument that you don’t “need” internet that fast, or that what we have now is “fast enough” is ridiculous…

Travel back 10 years and dial-up speeds were fast enough to get done what we needed to get done.

Try working with a dial up speeds today, even if it’s just to do the same things you did 10 years ago.

You can’t.

Most webpages won’t load, in particular email clients like Gmail and Hotmail get stuck repeatedly. You constantly run into errors on even the simplest sites, and ads that use flash and the like end up causing pages to crash… it’s just not feasible.

What you do online may not have changed, but the sites and services you use to do that have, and you need to keep up.

If the rest of the world’s internet continues to get faster than ours, content will be made with those faster speeds in mind. We will fall behind and suffer for it.

A stitch in time and all that.

Dilandach 11:57 am 05 Sep 13

Darkfalz said :

with the option to upgrade to a higher speed at your own expense if you have a requirement for it

Ignoring business premises, there are 9,117,003 private dwellings in Australia. The current NBN Co. plan is to roll out FTTP to 8,478,813 of them. At the current estimate of $3,800 for an individual to add their own fibre to the node would cost Australian home owners $32,219,488,602.

This is because when buying as a whole we have purchasing power.

Darkfalz said :

Even with multicasting which saves bandwidth for part of the trip, it is simply not practical to stream HD TV to every house in the country.

Streaming to a nation of 22 million people is entirely viable given the right infrastructure.

Darkfalz said :

Wealthy people subsidise everyone else for all of their lives that their not having a baby (ie. most of it). To be a net tax contributor, I’d estimate you need to earn at least 60-70K.

So how do you classify wealth then?

Darkfalz said :

Australian bonds are repaid with tax dollars, as is the dividend payout on them. This is just an accounting trick.

It’s not an accounting trick. In the way it is produced for NBN Co it is effectively offering shares at only a 7% dividend return. Companies would kill people to do the same.

Darkfalz said :

The Labor NBN’s revenue forecasts are ridiculous, expecting people to pay more and more for the same service each year, well above inflation.

Joint Committee on the National Broadband Network
Answers to Questions on Notice
Public Hearing 19 April 2013

Broadband, Communications and the Digital Economy Portfolio
NBN Co Limited

Question No: 6

Hansard Ref: In Writing

Topic: Wholesale Pricing

The Committee asked:
Will wholesale user charges per month on average increase almost threefold over the next nine
years?

Answer:
No. This question confuses wholesale access prices with average revenue per user. NBN Co’s
Corporate Plan forecasts wholesale prices to decline in real and nominal terms over time, but as
end users elect to take up higher speeds and download more, average revenue per user increases.

Connection speeds available by distance (*DSL only): http://i.imgur.com/476NpXG.gif
Connection speeds available by distance (with FTTP): http://i.imgur.com/1zXHPwt.jpg
‘Telstra Will axe copper network – Ageing lines are ‘five minutes to midnight’ http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/11/14/1068674351979.html
‘Australian Chamber of Commerce NBN support: http://www.computerworld.com.au/article/361294/australian_chamber_commerce_industry_backs_national_broadband_network/

IIA NBN Support ‘not nice to have but needed’ http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2010/08/the-internet-industry-association-supports-the-nbn/

“In the past decade Australia’s internet use has grown by a staggering 12,000%. That rate is accelerating. Yet despite this, we are now ranked 50th in the world in terms of our average broadband speeds.”

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/arts/museum-should-reach-out-to-all-its-citizens/story-e6frg8n6-1226022747009

“”The NBN will enable us to interact with people across Australia in real time and allow us to present images from our collections in hitherto unattainable detail and depth.””

FTTC(N) speed limitations with copper usage and distance. http://linebroker.co.uk/fttc-tech.php

…and take a look at the speeds for NZ’s FTTN deployment. Can only provide an average peak of 13Mbps.

Dilandach 11:57 am 05 Sep 13

Seems I kept breaking the comments, so I’ll be splitting it up.

Darkfalz said :

Dilandach said :

Except it isn’t done with public monies but government bonds.

Government bonds is just deferred public money.

That’s partly true.

Darkfalz said :

When the government has to buy back those bonds, what do you think they use to for it?

The money that NBN Co raised by being a monopoly wholesale provider.

Darkfalz said :

The government has no money.[/qoote]

NBN Co. will.

Darkfalz said :

Their money comes from us.

This is true of any Business.

Darkfalz said :

A 4K movie in H265 or whatever they use will likely stream easily under 50mbit.

That’s just technology that is existing now. The infrastructure is for technology 5, 10, 20 and 40 years away.

Even before the Liberal NBN is finished it will be obsolete. for not much more than future proofing ourselves for 30+ years.

http://i.imgur.com/34xCRva.png

Darkfalz said :

I also think that a direct fibre connection to the node won’t mean digging up your garden

Perhaps but that’s a short term cost for a long term asset. What happened when we put in town water or sewage systems?

Darkfalz said :

For the small percentage of people who want it, it’s not going to be any different to the Foxtel cable people get now, wired to your roof from the nearest pole.

Again, we’re thinking now, and not looking forward 5/10/20/40 years from now. Also, there is a dramatic difference between HFC and Fibre. The current NBN Co. plan is only limited at 100mb/s because that was well above current usage patterns. Fibre systems go well beyond 100mb/s, 1,000mb/s, 1,000,000mb/s, and into the 1,000,000,000mb/s range.

Darkfalz said :

The expense won’t be the same as digging up half the street to wire it to your house.

The current plan for the liberal NBN roll out is to put a node every 800 metres down the road. These nodes need to be powered and maintained.

The NBN plan is to put a single fibre sub-exchange in every suburb.

Darkfalz said :

You’ll actually be able to get 100mbit broadband in a couple of years

1. NBN Co will be releasing 1,000mb/s connections at the end of the year.
2. For anybody to get 100mb/s plans from the Liberal NBN plan they will need to be no further than 100m from the nearest node. Currently Turnbull is talking about nodes every 800 metres down the street which would only allow about 50mb/s.
3. The speeds on the Liberal NBN plan are not assured. A poor quality connection somewhere between the node and your house can destroy any and all speed up grades.

pink little birdie 11:44 am 05 Sep 13

Both parties have said that we will eventually have fibre to the point. The main idea is to replace the copper. The difference is how they are going to get there.

Labor – “Oh dear, the copper is at the end of it’s useful life, we are going to have to replace it all” “I know – we shall just replace it all at once (In a staged roll cos it’s a big task).

Liberal – “Oh dear, the copper is at the end of it’s useful life, we are going to have to replace it all”
Insert unneccessary step, “In places where the copper is too damaged we will replace it with fibre but otherwise we will do fibre to the node and come back in a few years and finish the job.”

The liberals might be initially cheaper (but it takes longer) but Labor’s does the job properly and fairly. Everyone gets the same product.

puggy 10:29 am 05 Sep 13

Darkfalz said :

We need to go H264 OTA soon, but that’s another argument.

Agree, but do not hold your breath. Consider that the analogue TV switch off was first scheduled for 2008 and it was pushed back to 2013. Digital TV transmission started in, I think, 2001 after they’d been testing since at least 1993. Television broadcasters have an inordinate political influence and have long, long since dragged the chain on any change – this is from first hand experience. Full-time colour TV in this country was introduced here in 1975, years after most other countries. I think Finland and some other countries are already going to DVB-T2, which uses h.264, but yeah, not going to happen here for a long, long, long time.

puggy 9:58 am 05 Sep 13

Darkfalz said :

I appreciate you dreaming of streaming 4K (8K?) movies from some cloud on the internet, rather than have the “inconvenience” of putting an actual BluRay successor disk in a machine, but to most people this isn’t a priority. A 4K movie in H265 or whatever they use will likely stream easily under 50mbit. I also think that a direct fibre connection to the node won’t mean digging up your garden or replacing the copper you’ve got. For the small percentage of people who want it, it’s not going to be any different to the Foxtel cable people get now, wired to your roof from the nearest pole. When you move, it can be taken by back down. The expense won’t be the same as digging up half the street to wire it to your house.

Time to weigh in… You make some good points but I thought I’d give another perspective.

All your posts seem to be considering what one person will be doing with their 100Mbps connection. Consider however, that the 100Mbps is for all four UNI-D ports. So, conceivably in a family house, you have one person watching HD sport (always at the top end of variable bit rates because of all the motion) on their “Foxtel via NBN”, while the kids are having a movie night via Netflix (when Netflix buys out Quickflix – please!), while yet another person is doing some work from home with a work network drive mounted.

I, like you, have a good home network for internal purposes, but love my NBN for work purposes. I can now sit there and work on large CAD assemblies at home, without bothering to download all files first (which took forever on my ADSL2+) at the same time as having ping times small enough to be able to reliably interact with a process control system (via a GUI) when users get into strife.

For a once in a multigenerational infrastructure project, it’s worth going big.

Also, no one dug up my front yard, it took the NBN contractors all of 15 minutes to get the fibre to my connection point. No digging at all. If you live in an area with overhead lines, they’ll likely come in through that.

Also, what I didn’t realise is that they don’t replace the copper to the house because Telstra still owns it. So, I can still get a phone service to the house, because I still have a couple of regular phone ports still connected in the house. That’s actually how we’re getting a regular phone service at the moment while we go through the process of getting ported to VoIP.

Anyway, that’s my 2c…

Darkfalz 9:28 am 05 Sep 13

watto23 said :

Finally how can anyone ever say TV will always be broadcast over the air? Seriously we are better if it isn’t, and frees up the spectrum for other services, hell might even make 3/4G actually deliver, something the coalition thought was all we needed 3 years ago.

Even with multicasting which saves bandwidth for part of the trip, it is simply not practical to stream HD TV to every house in the country.

We need to go H264 OTA soon, but that’s another argument.

watto23 said :

Apparently for you one eyed coalition supporters its ok to subsidise wealthy people to have babies with the baby bonus and the new maternity leave scheme

Wealthy people subsidise everyone else for all of their lives that their not having a baby (ie. most of it). To be a net tax contributor, I’d estimate you need to earn at least 60-70K.

Baby bonus has been scrapped, and rightfully so (it was already means tested years ago).

Believe it or not, we’d have got more on Labor’s scheme because it allows double dipping. My wife would have got her full income from her employer for 18 weeks, plus 18 weeks of the minimum wage on top from the government – that turns out to be more than 26 weeks at only her full income.

Labor is currently giving this payment to wealthy public servants and those in the private sector who already get generous maternity leave from their employer.

watto23 said :

That service is not even being funded by tax dollars.

See reply to the other guy. Australian bonds are repaid with tax dollars, as is the dividend payout on them. This is just an accounting trick. The Labor NBN’s revenue forecasts are ridiculous, expecting people to pay more and more for the same service each year, well above inflation.

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