Has the Greens' plan to phase out gas gone unnoticed?

Grail said :

Southerly_views said :

wildturkeycanoe
“I bet those in S.A. right now who have gas cooktops and hot water systems are grinning, being able to cook and shower whilst everyone else has cold spaghetti and sponge baths.”

It is called community resilience.

A choice of gas and electricity helps the population to self-support when incidents or natural events overwhelm the local region. The short memory of many Canberran’s allows them to forget the impact of the 2003 bushfire emergency when electricity supplies to some suburbs were cut for several days.

These days you would address that issue with household batteries. When the grid is workinas expected you trade electricity on the national wholesale market. When the grid isn’t working you have a supply of electricity independent of the grid.

…. as long as the sun is shining every day.

Southerly_views said :

wildturkeycanoe
“I bet those in S.A. right now who have gas cooktops and hot water systems are grinning, being able to cook and shower whilst everyone else has cold spaghetti and sponge baths.”

It is called community resilience.

A choice of gas and electricity helps the population to self-support when incidents or natural events overwhelm the local region. The short memory of many Canberran’s allows them to forget the impact of the 2003 bushfire emergency when electricity supplies to some suburbs were cut for several days.

These days you would address that issue with household batteries. When the grid is workinas expected you trade electricity on the national wholesale market. When the grid isn’t working you have a supply of electricity independent of the grid.

We should have the right to choose?

So you would be comfortable with a return to lead based paint, leaded petrol, asbestos insulation, and smoky wood fired heating?

Or are you simply operating on the assumption that the evil Greens are going to force you to rip out your functional appliances and replace them with super expensive electrical versions?

There will be funding to help people on low incomes. The cost of changing over is something to be addressed in ten-year household budgets. So if it was going to cost $3000 to get the new wiring for water and kitchen put in place, that’s close to $300 a year for ten years (I would save more, to allow for emergency replacement).

For people who do not have that kind of money, there is also the option of lobbying for extra assistance.

There will be no future expansion of the gas network. Our domestic production is far more valuable to its owners as exports into the international market.

I am all for shutting down the fossil fuel industry. I would prefer my country remain solvent rather than go into recession due to spending on rehabilitstion of abandoned mines and bores. I would prefer farmlands over industrial wastelands.

wildturkeycanoe
“I bet those in S.A. right now who have gas cooktops and hot water systems are grinning, being able to cook and shower whilst everyone else has cold spaghetti and sponge baths.”

It is called community resilience.

A choice of gas and electricity helps the population to self-support when incidents or natural events overwhelm the local region. The short memory of many Canberran’s allows them to forget the impact of the 2003 bushfire emergency when electricity supplies to some suburbs were cut for several days. We had a gas stove and hot water service so our neighbours with an electric HWS and stove came over to shower and cook at our place.

The availability of gas and electricity allows homes to have a fall back position in an emergency. If gas supplies fail ( a very rare occurrence) small electric heaters can be used to heat a room in winter and a small hotplate can cook meals and heat water. If electricity fails, gas cooktops and the HWS still work while torches light the house.

It is simple common sense really and something the current government seems to lack.

creative_canberran said :

dungfungus said :

Where to begin?

Firstly, read what I said and I didn’t mention anything about wind farms in the Territory.

You did. Your exact quote: “I wonder what the risk management plan it for the ACT when a one in fifty year wind & hail-storm destroys the Territory’s solar farms.”

dungfungus said :

I know that but no one lives at the land fill so the leeching methane isn’t going to harm anyone.

However, the toxic emissions from burning the stuff are carried by wind currents to several residential suburbs.

That makes no sense for a number of reasons. You say the methane isn’t a worry because no one lives at the tip, but the “toxic” burning emissions are because they’re carried by wind. Well the methane is carried by wind too. And the raw methane is a problem for everyone because it is a heavy greenhouse gas caught by the atmosphere.

Burning methane produces carbon-dioxide. A much lighter greenhouse gas that we all exhale. That’s why burning it is much better than letting the raw methane be released.

The toxic emissions from the burning methane are carried to residential suburbs more by air currents in calm conditions.

And for you to suggest that carbon dioxide is the only gas that is produced by burning methane is totally false.

I bet those in S.A. right now who have gas cooktops and hot water systems are grinning, being able to cook and shower whilst everyone else has cold spaghetti and sponge baths.
I can not believe the Greens want to ban everything else and rely purely on electricity, which is mainly produced by coal fired power plants, the worst producer of greenhouse gases.
We can not have a reliance on wind and solar until peak loads and unexpected demands are met by a standby source capable of meeting those demands. At the moment coal does this, but there are no other sources able to ramp up production or wind it down as readily. It is either sunny or windy, but if it is dark and still, what do they expect we use instead if gas is also no good?

dungfungus said :

Where to begin?

Firstly, read what I said and I didn’t mention anything about wind farms in the Territory.

You did. Your exact quote: “I wonder what the risk management plan it for the ACT when a one in fifty year wind & hail-storm destroys the Territory’s solar farms.”

dungfungus said :

I know that but no one lives at the land fill so the leeching methane isn’t going to harm anyone.

However, the toxic emissions from burning the stuff are carried by wind currents to several residential suburbs.

That makes no sense for a number of reasons. You say the methane isn’t a worry because no one lives at the tip, but the “toxic” burning emissions are because they’re carried by wind. Well the methane is carried by wind too. And the raw methane is a problem for everyone because it is a heavy greenhouse gas caught by the atmosphere.

Burning methane produces carbon-dioxide. A much lighter greenhouse gas that we all exhale. That’s why burning it is much better than letting the raw methane be released.

creative_canberran said :

dungfungus said :

But the methane powered electricity generators at the Mugga Lane Land Fill will still belch out their polluting emissions?

Yeah, that sounds totally reasonable.

The methane is released from decomposing garbage, biomass, and it’s a greenhouse gas emitted from all landfills for decades after the rubbish is buried. By burning it instead and using it for energy, you put those emissions to use, and release exhaust that is over 20x less harmful than the pure methane that would otherwise escape.

I know that but no one lives at the land fill so the leeching methane isn’t going to harm anyone.

However, the toxic emissions from burning the stuff are carried by wind currents to several residential suburbs.

creative_canberran said :

dungfungus said :

Following the total shutdown of South Australia’s electricity network tonight I think that state will speed up planning for some stand-by gas-peakers.

The Achilles heal of the clean, green wind turbine has been exposed for ever, namely they can’t operate in high winds and when 40% of the state’s electricity is generated by wind turbines there is a huge problem (including the Adelaide trams stopping dead in their tracks).

The SA government will have litigants lining up at Parliament House tomorrow. Lucky there are no aluminium smelters in that state.

I wonder what the risk management plan it for the ACT when a one in fifty year wind & hail-storm destroys the Territory’s solar farms.

Oh where to begin.

Firstly, the territory itself has no windfarms. There are three windfarms in the Canberra region, but we generally buy the energy from further away. As the ACT has interconnects to NSW, we might have blackouts in severe storms but that’s to do with transmission, not generation.

Secondly we don’t know what has really happened yet in SA. Yes, they have 40% of their own capacity from wind. But they have an interconnect with Victoria, and their own gas stations (which are powering up right now) to fill in the gap when the wind isn’t producing. The reports at the moment point to a fault with the transmission network instead.

Where to begin?

Firstly, read what I said and I didn’t mention anything about wind farms in the Territory.

So who is going to pay firstly for the upgrades to people’s heating and cooking appliances to convert them to electricity? The householders. Who is going to pay for the upgrades to their electricity distribution board which will require larger fuses and additional circuit breakers, not to mention larger cables to supply these new electric appliances? The householder. Who is going to pay for upgrades to the power grid, larger transformers and upgraded conductors to carry all the extra power that will be sucked from the power generators? You guessed it, the ratepayers and electricity customers.
Do the greens realise that houses with gas appliances do not have the capacity to add electric cooking [20amps], heating[possibly up to 40 amps] and hot water[another 20-32 amps]. Their switchboards have been designed for a much lower maximum demand, meaning the installation may not be sufficient to go all electric.
But greens have their heads buried so far up Labor’s proverbial, they can’t see anything but green fields and sunshine.