Lying to women to get sex apparently normal

banco said :

I thought whores had pimps to deal with these situations?

I don’t think pimping is legal.

The defendant is a very silly man though – his sentence would have taken the circumstances into account, and would likely have been derisory. He may be trying to avoid the rape conviction on his record, but really, by now he’s screwed up his reputation anyway. (And this doesn’t answer why he originally pleaded guilty.)

Changing your plea is always possible, but in his circumstances does seem to be an abuse of process. But he seems to be a recidivist in abuse of process.

Comments about this being fraud may or not be true, but it is not fraud he is charged with. I am sure there will be legal argument over whether S67(g) applies – it may not designed for this scenario, probably more cases like the recent one where a woman thought it was her partner.

IP

c_c™ said :

Robertson said :

She gave consent. She can’t withdraw it retrospectively. If her consent was based on a financial transaction in which she was defrauded then she can make it a civil matter just like anybody else who is the vitcim of fraud.
Making it a rape case makes a mockery of the law.

You don’t know jack about the law but you’re going to lecture everyone about how it should be anyway.

Go look up s 67 of the Crimes Act – 9 sub-sections each detailing a different circumstance where consent is negated. In this case, it’s s 67(g) that applies.

Making it a rape case means following proper process as required by the law.

And you also don’t seem to realise fraud is also a criminal offence, in this case a 422A offence under the Criminal Code.

Do you even read?

She gave consent based on a contract. He didn’t misrepresent anything, he just failed to pay her.

If your interpretation of (g) is valid, then (g) needs to change, because it is ludicrous and an insult to genuine rape victims.

Queen_of_the_Bun said :

Why someone who admitted guilt three years ago and would have already served his sentence by now chooses to put himself through the extra embarrassment of more people finding out that he not only has to pay for sex but is a fraudster astounds me.

But then, maybe he’s innocent. Of what, I’m not sure.

I wondered about that too so I dug.

Turns out he never went to his sentencing hearing. He ran away instead and just turned up last month.

He’s out on bail now, on a $6000 surety, because obviously he’s not a flight risk.
http://m.canberratimes.com.au/act-news/fugitive-flees-without-paying-prostitute-plans-to-fight-charges-20130918-2tyw8.htm

c_c™ said :

Robertson said :

She gave consent. She can’t withdraw it retrospectively. If her consent was based on a financial transaction in which she was defrauded then she can make it a civil matter just like anybody else who is the vitcim of fraud.
Making it a rape case makes a mockery of the law.

You don’t know jack about the law but you’re going to lecture everyone about how it should be anyway.

Go look up s 67 of the Crimes Act – 9 sub-sections each detailing a different circumstance where consent is negated. In this case, it’s s 67(g) that applies.

Making it a rape case means following proper process as required by the law.

And you also don’t seem to realise fraud is also a criminal offence, in this case a 422A offence under the Criminal Code.

Do you even read?

c_c™ said :

Robertson said :

She gave consent. She can’t withdraw it retrospectively. If her consent was based on a financial transaction in which she was defrauded then she can make it a civil matter just like anybody else who is the vitcim of fraud.
Making it a rape case makes a mockery of the law.

You don’t know jack about the law but you’re going to lecture everyone about how it should be anyway.

Go look up s 67 of the Crimes Act – 9 sub-sections each detailing a different circumstance where consent is negated. In this case, it’s s 67(g) that applies.

Making it a rape case means following proper process as required by the law.

And you also don’t seem to realise fraud is also a criminal offence, in this case a 422A offence under the Criminal Code.

Do you even read?

He pleaded GUILTY to rape the first time around.
Why can he change his mind and tie up our courts with an appeal, if she is not allowed to refuse consent once she’s worked out that her punter is not going to pay?
So many men on here have said she changed her mind after the fact – what about him? He has already been convicted but he is allowed to change his mind apparently.
Sheesh.

Robertson said :

She gave consent. She can’t withdraw it retrospectively. If her consent was based on a financial transaction in which she was defrauded then she can make it a civil matter just like anybody else who is the vitcim of fraud.
Making it a rape case makes a mockery of the law.

You don’t know jack about the law but you’re going to lecture everyone about how it should be anyway.

Go look up s 67 of the Crimes Act – 9 sub-sections each detailing a different circumstance where consent is negated. In this case, it’s s 67(g) that applies.

Making it a rape case means following proper process as required by the law.

And you also don’t seem to realise fraud is also a criminal offence, in this case a 422A offence under the Criminal Code.

Do you even read?

I thought whores had pimps to deal with these situations?

c_c™ said :

BimboGeek said :

chewy14 said :

Its pretty far out there, but maybe they could choose to not be a prostitute?

You make me embarrased to call myself human.
75% began as children
85% report a family history of violence during their childhood
95% have drug addiction issues
They began as children because they became homeless, were pimped out by a family member, or perhaps the “boyfriend” that helped them escape family violence turned out to be a pimp.
Through the unfortunate circumstances of their history they earned enough money to truly become educated, free and powerful, only to find their only option is to become an “ex-whore” and thus remain as detested and marginalised as they are now.
And yet your only contribution is “herp derp she shouldn’t be a prostitute!”
Go sniff a butt.

Those figures are total BS. You’re the one who should be embarrassed. Absolutely disgusting contribution to the issue.

chewy14 said :

My bush lawyer skills are showing but with the above I was actually wondering whether this is a civil rather than criminal matter.

The issue making the news is the criminal matter. Whether the woman also seeks a civil claim is separate, and can be in addition to the criminal matter.

She gave consent. She can’t withdraw it retrospectively. If her consent was based on a financial transaction in which she was defrauded then she can make it a civil matter just like anybody else who is the vitcim of fraud.
Making it a rape case makes a mockery of the law.

c_c™ said :

BimboGeek said :

chewy14 said :

Its pretty far out there, but maybe they could choose to not be a prostitute?

You make me embarrased to call myself human.
75% began as children
85% report a family history of violence during their childhood
95% have drug addiction issues
They began as children because they became homeless, were pimped out by a family member, or perhaps the “boyfriend” that helped them escape family violence turned out to be a pimp.
Through the unfortunate circumstances of their history they earned enough money to truly become educated, free and powerful, only to find their only option is to become an “ex-whore” and thus remain as detested and marginalised as they are now.
And yet your only contribution is “herp derp she shouldn’t be a prostitute!”
Go sniff a butt.

Those figures are total BS. You’re the one who should be embarrassed. Absolutely disgusting contribution to the issue.

chewy14 said :

My bush lawyer skills are showing but with the above I was actually wondering whether this is a civil rather than criminal matter.

The issue making the news is the criminal matter. Whether the woman also seeks a civil claim is separate, and can be in addition to the criminal matter.

Let me repeat – this man pleaded guilty originally and was sentenced. This is not about the woman seeking a civil claim. This is about a man getting legal advice and lodging an appeal.

Why someone who admitted guilt three years ago and would have already served his sentence by now chooses to put himself through the extra embarrassment of more people finding out that he not only has to pay for sex but is a fraudster astounds me.

But then, maybe he’s innocent. Of what, I’m not sure.

Sounds like fraud to me.

BimboGeek said :

chewy14 said :

Its pretty far out there, but maybe they could choose to not be a prostitute?

You make me embarrased to call myself human.
75% began as children
85% report a family history of violence during their childhood
95% have drug addiction issues
They began as children because they became homeless, were pimped out by a family member, or perhaps the “boyfriend” that helped them escape family violence turned out to be a pimp.
Through the unfortunate circumstances of their history they earned enough money to truly become educated, free and powerful, only to find their only option is to become an “ex-whore” and thus remain as detested and marginalised as they are now.
And yet your only contribution is “herp derp she shouldn’t be a prostitute!”
Go sniff a butt.

Those figures are total BS. You’re the one who should be embarrassed. Absolutely disgusting contribution to the issue.

chewy14 said :

My bush lawyer skills are showing but with the above I was actually wondering whether this is a civil rather than criminal matter.

The issue making the news is the criminal matter. Whether the woman also seeks a civil claim is separate, and can be in addition to the criminal matter.

chewy14 said :

BimboGeek said :

chewy14 said :

Its pretty far out there, but maybe they could choose to not be a prostitute?

You make me embarrased to call myself human.
75% began as children
85% report a family history of violence during their childhood
95% have drug addiction issues
They began as children because they became homeless, were pimped out by a family member, or perhaps the “boyfriend” that helped them escape family violence turned out to be a pimp.
Through the unfortunate circumstances of their history they earned enough money to truly become educated, free and powerful, only to find their only option is to become an “ex-whore” and thus remain as detested and marginalised as they are now.
And yet your only contribution is “herp derp she shouldn’t be a prostitute!”
Go sniff a butt.

And you make me embarrassed to think we live in the same universe. Actually, that may be a bit harsh, i simply think you’re too willing to see a victim instead of a human adult personally responsible for their own decisions. Even if they’re bad ones.

Now, can you provide links for those stats please? I’d be interested to read more.

Then, putting aside the “forced” issue which if it was occurring I think we can all agree is abhorrent, do you have one shred of evidence that this women couldn’t have simply chosen not to be a prostitute?

Even if the choice is become a prostitute or live on the dole, it’s still a choice. We have a fairly decent welfare system in this country and no one is going to stave from being out of work. Could we do better? Hell yes we could, but that doesn’t negate the fact that all of us make choices about the direction of our lives everyday, we all have our price.

And correct me if I’m wrong here but “ex whores” aren’t branded physically are they? Please tell me how you can detect them for all this marginalisation?

You might have missed this recent survey into poverty levels in the ACT
http://www.canberratimes.com.au/act-news/capitals-cycle-of-poverty-20131010-2vbrl.html

But aside from the arguments about why people become sex workers, just remember – the defendant originally admitted guilt and was convicted of rape. Are you saying it’s a man’s prerogative to change his mind?

BimboGeek said :

chewy14 said :

Its pretty far out there, but maybe they could choose to not be a prostitute?

You make me embarrased to call myself human.
75% began as children
85% report a family history of violence during their childhood
95% have drug addiction issues
They began as children because they became homeless, were pimped out by a family member, or perhaps the “boyfriend” that helped them escape family violence turned out to be a pimp.
Through the unfortunate circumstances of their history they earned enough money to truly become educated, free and powerful, only to find their only option is to become an “ex-whore” and thus remain as detested and marginalised as they are now.
And yet your only contribution is “herp derp she shouldn’t be a prostitute!”
Go sniff a butt.

That’s not what the Sex Party has to say about prostitution! Their line has always been that it is a lucrative career choice for highly functional, happy, intelligent and educated young women, and that there is no hard drug problem & no exploitation in the sector! Of course, the Sex Party, representing the sex industry, has a very vested interest in shutting women down (viz. Deborah Avery’s “chickie” effect), and keeping the reality out of social and political conversations.

BimboGeek said :

chewy14 said :

Its pretty far out there, but maybe they could choose to not be a prostitute?

You make me embarrased to call myself human.
75% began as children
85% report a family history of violence during their childhood
95% have drug addiction issues
They began as children because they became homeless, were pimped out by a family member, or perhaps the “boyfriend” that helped them escape family violence turned out to be a pimp.
Through the unfortunate circumstances of their history they earned enough money to truly become educated, free and powerful, only to find their only option is to become an “ex-whore” and thus remain as detested and marginalised as they are now.
And yet your only contribution is “herp derp she shouldn’t be a prostitute!”
Go sniff a butt.

And you make me embarrassed to think we live in the same universe. Actually, that may be a bit harsh, i simply think you’re too willing to see a victim instead of a human adult personally responsible for their own decisions. Even if they’re bad ones.

Now, can you provide links for those stats please? I’d be interested to read more.

Then, putting aside the “forced” issue which if it was occurring I think we can all agree is abhorrent, do you have one shred of evidence that this women couldn’t have simply chosen not to be a prostitute?

Even if the choice is become a prostitute or live on the dole, it’s still a choice. We have a fairly decent welfare system in this country and no one is going to stave from being out of work. Could we do better? Hell yes we could, but that doesn’t negate the fact that all of us make choices about the direction of our lives everyday, we all have our price.

And correct me if I’m wrong here but “ex whores” aren’t branded physically are they? Please tell me how you can detect them for all this marginalisation?

BimboGeek said :

chewy14 said :

Its pretty far out there, but maybe they could choose to not be a prostitute?

You make me embarrased to call myself human.
75% began as children
85% report a family history of violence during their childhood
95% have drug addiction issues
They began as children because they became homeless, were pimped out by a family member, or perhaps the “boyfriend” that helped them escape family violence turned out to be a pimp.
Through the unfortunate circumstances of their history they earned enough money to truly become educated, free and powerful, only to find their only option is to become an “ex-whore” and thus remain as detested and marginalised as they are now.
And yet your only contribution is “herp derp she shouldn’t be a prostitute!”
Go sniff a butt.

This.
+1.
I had a very strange conversation with a dear male friend about this yesterday. He told me about a case in Adelaide several years ago where a man penetrated a stripper during a lap dance on his buck’s night and was charged with rape. He thought it was totally unfair that the man not only got charged, the wedding was off.
I said, who would want to marry someone who has sex with a stripper two weeks before the wedding?
He said, women just don’t understand.

chewy14 said :

Its pretty far out there, but maybe they could choose to not be a prostitute?

You make me embarrased to call myself human.
75% began as children
85% report a family history of violence during their childhood
95% have drug addiction issues
They began as children because they became homeless, were pimped out by a family member, or perhaps the “boyfriend” that helped them escape family violence turned out to be a pimp.
Through the unfortunate circumstances of their history they earned enough money to truly become educated, free and powerful, only to find their only option is to become an “ex-whore” and thus remain as detested and marginalised as they are now.
And yet your only contribution is “herp derp she shouldn’t be a prostitute!”
Go sniff a butt.

caf said :

I always pretend to be a RiotACT editor to get laid.

Be prepared to wait for a while…

BimboGeek said :

What if being a prostitute is really awful, feels like getting raped and the only reason qomen do it is for those few measly dollars that still don’t feel like enough?
/

Hmmm, let me think about this…..Yes, I’ve got it!!

Its pretty far out there, but maybe they could choose to not be a prostitute?

Dilandach said :

I’d have to agree with the ruling. Not that I support what the guy is done but instead of reaching for the ‘rape’ panic button when it clearly wasn’t rape. It should have been failing to pay for services rendered. I get the feeling that the ‘rape’ accusation was used to punish the guy just that bit extra that wouldn’t have happened with not paying for services (petrol drive off, running out on a meal).

There hasn’t been a ruling. The defendant actually pleaded guilty and was convicted, but has been given leave to appeal following this new “defence”.
As the woman’s consent was clearly based on his promise to pay, which he had no intent to do and even premeditately (not sure that’s a word but you know what I mean) filled an envelope with folded paper and a card with a rose on it (what a gentleman), I hope the original conviction stands.

c_c™ said :

chewy14 said :

Surely this is simple theft? Or non payment for services?

Should be heard in the small claims court.

First, there’s no such thing as simple theft. Second, you’re confusing criminal with civil liability.

None the less, you’re underlying point is valid. This sounds like an open and shut of 322A.

However, important to note Livas’ argument seems at odds with legislative provisions in both the ACT and NSW, both of which have provisions in the Crimes Act negating consent where it was obtained by fraudulent misrepresentation. The balance of the law is really that of creating a presumption against consent in practice, and so given the context, all the court really has to ask if did he really think they would do anything if proper payment wasn’t exchanged? I really don’t think the court would take long to dispense with it.

My bush lawyer skills are showing but with the above I was actually wondering whether this is a civil rather than criminal matter.

What if being a prostitute is really awful, feels like getting raped and the only reason qomen do it is for those few measly dollars that still don’t feel like enough?

“From a young age…I’ve been hardened to it…When I first started doing it, I cried my eyes out every day and just scrubbed myself in bleach…I felt like I’d been raped…it really screwed my mind up….you become hardened in your…heart and your soul to it…this is when you get the hatred for the men…Sometimes I really hate it.” http://soul-destruction.com/on-prostitution/

I can’t help but wonder what actual rape victims think/feel of this charge?

Masquara said :

caf said :

I always pretend to be a RiotACT editor to get laid.

Which one?

duh, the one that does get

caf said :

I always pretend to be a RiotACT editor to get laid.

Which one?

chewy14 said :

Surely this is simple theft? Or non payment for services?

Should be heard in the small claims court.

shirty_bear said :

brings to mind the old “I didn’t know I’d been raped until the cheque bounced” …

Exactly, and is to be hoped that his argument succeeds.

It seems likely that she has been the victim of fraud, but turning this into a public prosecution on the basis of retrospectively withdrawn consent is a serious perversion of the justice system.

johnboy said :

We do OK

The submarine uniform must be costly to launder. Or is it more of a hassle to keep the secret service guns just in sight behind the computer?

The fact that I feel comfortable making jokes here indicates that I see this as a case of obtaining a financial advantage by deception, but not one of rape.

chewy14 said :

Surely this is simple theft? Or non payment for services?

Should be heard in the small claims court.

First, there’s no such thing as simple theft. Second, you’re confusing criminal with civil liability.

None the less, you’re underlying point is valid. This sounds like an open and shut of 322A.

However, important to note Livas’ argument seems at odds with legislative provisions in both the ACT and NSW, both of which have provisions in the Crimes Act negating consent where it was obtained by fraudulent misrepresentation. The balance of the law is really that of creating a presumption against consent in practice, and so given the context, all the court really has to ask if did he really think they would do anything if proper payment wasn’t exchanged? I really don’t think the court would take long to dispense with it.

Dilandach said :

I’d have to agree with the ruling. Not that I support what the guy is done but instead of reaching for the ‘rape’ panic button when it clearly wasn’t rape. It should have been failing to pay for services rendered. I get the feeling that the ‘rape’ accusation was used to punish the guy just that bit extra that wouldn’t have happened with not paying for services (petrol drive off, running out on a meal).

Agreed, and given how badly clogged the courts already are it’s a complete farce that this has gotten as far as it has.

So it was consentual, till she opened the envelop post-coitus and then withdrew her consent retrospectively?

And it wasn’t fake money, or he’d be busted for passing counterfeit money. It was just folded up paper.

Apparently she forgot the golden rule: check the money before you give him the honey.
also known as: count the dough, before on your back you go,

caf said :

I always pretend to be a RiotACT editor to get laid.

Been a while?

brings to mind the old “I didn’t know I’d been raped until the cheque bounced” …

Surely this is simple theft? Or non payment for services?

Should be heard in the small claims court.

I always pretend to be a RiotACT editor to get laid.

I’d have to agree with the ruling. Not that I support what the guy is done but instead of reaching for the ‘rape’ panic button when it clearly wasn’t rape. It should have been failing to pay for services rendered. I get the feeling that the ‘rape’ accusation was used to punish the guy just that bit extra that wouldn’t have happened with not paying for services (petrol drive off, running out on a meal).