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Male feminists: do they really exist?

By Kim Huynh - 7 July 2016 54

malcolm turnbull

Male feminism is arguably on the rise.

During the federal election campaign Malcolm Turnbull reaffirmed that he’s a feminist even though Julie Bishop thinks the label is “not useful”. The ultra-cool Canadian prime minister Justin Trudeau has promised to talk about his commitment to feminism until it’s regarded as normal and “there is no more reaction to it”.

Given Canberra’s progressive bent, egalitarian ethos, and relatively small gender pay gap, it’s a likely place to find male feminists.

Even so, it’s worth considering if being a male feminist is feasible or whether it’s like professing to be a white-Asian or gay-heterosexual. And if we accept that male feminists exist, how should these fellows express and enact their support for the sisterhood?

First, what not to do.

A big mistake is to profess to be a male feminist in a such a way that, “It’s all about me, the man”.

In this regard, offering the label as an icebreaker can suggest excessive eagerness and a staged sympathy: it’s as if you’re seeking a pat on the back or gold star for your sensitive new age stance.

People are also rightfully wary of men who seek personal advancement by flaunting their progressiveness.

I once had a discussion with a mate about whether we should put our time and experiences as stay-at-home parents on our CVs. Stay-at-home mothers are sometimes encouraged to highlight how their domestic engineering or home management skills are valuable to business and bureaucracy.

In a man’s case, however, the same act could be regarded as undue peacocking; that is, seeking kudos for doing what women have been doing for generations with little public recognition.

Another common mistake of male feminists is to overstate their experiences of oppression and capacity for empathy.

An analogous situation occurred when Treasurer Scott Morrison asserted that, sorta like Senator Penny Wong, he was the victim of “quite dreadful hate speech and bigotry” because of his opposition to marriage equality. The lesson here is that being criticised because of your beliefs and actions is not that same as being systematically discriminated against because of who you are.

A long time ago I suggested to a woman that, as an Asian man, I too had been unfairly stereotyped as an incapable driver. The comment was not received all that well, which taught me that different experiences of prejudice are not always equivalent.

How then can men show their support for feminism without co-opting or mansplaining it?

One tip is to focus on causes that have shared relevance and value such as promoting work-life balance, affordable child care and support for carers.

Male feminists should also be prominent in the fight against hyper-masculinity and misogyny.

In this regard, Malcolm Turnbull and Justin Trudeau have stressed the need for men to be exemplars to one another and to boys when it comes to respecting women. It’s also important for men to have a say in formulating an ethic of care that can disrupt and replace patriarchal structures.

It is in this context that we can better understand ally movements such as the white ribbon campaign to prevent male violence against women, and also Australian of the Year David Morrison’s efforts as a Male Champion of Change in promoting gender equality.

Even within these parameters, ‘male feminist’ is a vexed label.

In a New York Magazine article entitled, ‘So You Want to Be a Male Feminist? Maybe Don’t’, Kat Stoeffel argues that there are no exemptions even for well-intentioned men when it comes to patriarchy.

“Maybe you didn’t, personally, do anything wrong, but you were still born into a power structure that gave you unjust rewards…. You can’t opt out of the privileges you inherited at birth.”

As Ambassador for Tackling Violence, Raiders legend Alan Tongue acknowledges that many men think that they are not part of the problem, but stresses that all of us are part of the solution.

Are you a male feminist? Do you know self-proclaimed male feminists and how seriously do you take them? In what ways can blokes show their solidarity with sheilas?

Kim Huynh teaches international relations at the ANU. He has published a collection of (free) novellas entitled Vietnam as if…. Tales of youth, love and destiny (ANU Press).

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Male feminists: do they really exist?
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devils_advocate 10:07 am 22 Jul 16

Perhaps if feminism hadn’t been explained to me, a feminist, by a man in a condescending manner, I would not have used the word “mansplain”.

There is an excellent article called “Men Explain Things To Me”. Perhaps that will go a ways as to explaining why this term has been created, and then come in to common usage. If it did not accurately describe the phenomenon, I would not feel the need to use it.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/men-explain-things-to-me-_b_1811096

This is a pretty common exploitation of a logical fallacy used to demonize men.

“A person was condescending to me, that person happened to be a man, therefore I’ll use that to be condescending towards all men”.

Society doesn’t have an issue with mansplaining, it’s an issue with condescending idiots of all genders.

HenryBG 11:34 pm 21 Jul 16

Calling yourself a feminist doesn’t mean you know what you’re talking about, or that you’re correct. Being female doesn’t make it so, either. Your sex doesn’t endow you with indelible authority on the issue of feminism, just as your sex doesn’t preclude you from having and sharing opinions on issues of masculinity. As much as it may pain you, males can be informed about feminism and credibly disagree with a self-proclaimed “young feminist” (what your age has to do with it is anyone’s guess). Not everyone who disagrees with you, and points it out, is “mansplaining”. Seeing a “condescending tone” simply because your opponent is male says more about your perception of the world around you, than it says about the reality of the world around you.

Too much reason and logic. Insufficient flights of emotive language. You’re “mansplaining” again.

Thank god for recent role models like Jennifer Lawrence who have inspired the latest generation of girls to believe that they can make their opportunities in an unequal world without trying to stake a claim on eternal victimhood.

sputnik 12:55 pm 21 Jul 16

Let’s see if I get the quotes under control this time… (Apologies)

london said :

Feminism and femininity are not mutually exclusive; being feminine and choosing to wear dresses and makeup does not mean that you surrender your right to ambition and dissatisfaction at experienced inequality.

That was a joke.
You made a statement that equality evolves into “equalism”.
So did femininity evolve into “feminism”?

I certainly hope that equality (of rights and opportunity) doesn’t evolve into yet another ideology.

london said :

My point about being a young feminist is that I don’t need an older male to explain feminism to me – I know what it is. I know the literature. I, like many young women, rejected the term for years before realising that the reasons I was so dissatisfied with how I was spoken to and about, the opportunities I was granted (or actively denied) was because we still need feminism. So yes, I made a statement that was a qualifier because I don’t need to be condescended to about a topic I am familiar with.

And I, as what may or may not qualify as an older male in in your context feel condescended to when the other person says 1.) “I know what it is.”, 2.) “I know the literature”, 3.) “I’m a young woman, therefore..”
As if these (besides number 3.) were undisputed facts in this world.
But don’t worry, I’ll survive this. I don’t have a right not to be condescended to from time to time. And not everyone who is condescending to me is automatically an “ism” (i.e. ideological) enemy. And no, you have no idea if I have grown up and lived in a “privileged environment” or on the contrary have actually suffered at the hand of others, including women.

london said :

Change will not occur overnight. Women achieving social equality will effectively benefit everyone, so that men won’t feel locked out of certain industries or roles. No one deserves to feel as though their gender identity is an impairment.

I don’t want my feelings protected. At all.
But I do want equal opportunity and rights. And when this is not present and called out, it should not be steamrolled by an “ism” or “older males”.

Mysteryman 10:37 am 21 Jul 16

Perhaps if feminism hadn’t been explained to me, a feminist, by a man in a condescending manner, I would not have used the word “mansplain”.

There is an excellent article called “Men Explain Things To Me”. Perhaps that will go a ways as to explaining why this term has been created, and then come in to common usage. If it did not accurately describe the phenomenon, I would not feel the need to use it.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/men-explain-things-to-me-_b_1811096

Calling yourself a feminist doesn’t mean you know what you’re talking about, or that you’re correct. Being female doesn’t make it so, either. Your sex doesn’t endow you with indelible authority on the issue of feminism, just as your sex doesn’t preclude you from having and sharing opinions on issues of masculinity. As much as it may pain you, males can be informed about feminism and credibly disagree with a self-proclaimed “young feminist” (what your age has to do with it is anyone’s guess). Not everyone who disagrees with you, and points it out, is “mansplaining”. Seeing a “condescending tone” simply because your opponent is male says more about your perception of the world around you, than it says about the reality of the world around you.

chewy14 10:13 am 21 Jul 16

Tempestas said :

HiddenDragon said :

dungfungus said :

….. but would request that you cease to mansplain feminism to a feminist…..

Most young feminists disagree with the way that family courts default to the mother, even when the father could be the better caregiver. You know why? Because feminists want equality. Taking advantage of other people (including men) is not in the feminist code of ethics.

“mansplain”, really. What an insulting term. Way to go in getting others to see your point of view.

And as for divorce, property settlements, the family court and child support agency, funny how these so called “feminists” enforce a non equitable outcome because its in their favor.

It is easy for men to patronise women, and it is very easy for them to take offence when they are called on it.

And it’s very easy for feminists to dismiss other people’s arguments with insulting terms that they’d use as evidence of institutionalised sexism if similar dismissive terms were used against them.

And it’s also easy to play a game of “head’s i win, tails you lose” by claiming that something exists (patriarchy, societal discrimination) without evidence and then claim that anyone who disagrees with you is either blind to it or benefits from it.

Similarly, I could claim that having a huge victim mentality is a prerequisite for being a feminist and the only reason feminists can’t see it is because it allows them to rationalise any personal failure as a global conspiracy against them.

madelini 9:51 am 21 Jul 16

dungfungus said :

dungfungus said :

You’re actually proving a point I made earlier.[/QUOTE]
She said referring to his whining about alleged bias in retail jobs (or childcare jobs, or nursing jobs).
Right, that was manswhining and really didn’t help any arguments. But it didn’t prove any points you made.
Personally, I believe we men have equal opportunity to get jobs as childcare worker or nurses. I would be curious to see how many men actually apply for these jobs. I would hate to see an affirmative action in hiring policy for these jobs.
Actually, he inadvertently made an excellent point. There was no legal barrier for him to get into a retail job. At least no legal barrier related to gender. All he did was come up with an excuse why he wasn’t hired other than his actual qualifications (or maybe just dumb luck of others).

dungfungus said :

As a young feminist, I have a fair idea of current discussions about equality, and what current feminism seeks to achieve.[/QUOTE]
This one made me laugh. You say that as if it is a qualification to be young and to be a feminist. I highly doubt even the crusty old feminist from the gender studies department or the chauvinist pig director of the sociology department knows that. Google scholar says “about 19,800” results since 2016 about feminism. That’s probably only scratching the surface. Hubris…

dungfungus said :

I would like to see equality across all industries[/QUOTE]
If by equality you mean equal opportunity and rights (and equal including not only genders, but also age and where you were born, what you eat etc.) then I’m all in.
Personally, I don’t need any more arguments, extreme or moderate.

dungfungus said :

Feminism seeks equality; when it’s closer, perhaps it will be called equalism,

All the points you raised are why we need feminism.

So before feminism we has femininity?

Feminism and femininity are not mutually exclusive; being feminine and choosing to wear dresses and makeup does not mean that you surrender your right to ambition and dissatisfaction at experienced inequality.

My point about being a young feminist is that I don’t need an older male to explain feminism to me – I know what it is. I know the literature. I, like many young women, rejected the term for years before realising that the reasons I was so dissatisfied with how I was spoken to and about, the opportunities I was granted (or actively denied) was because we still need feminism. So yes, I made a statement that was a qualifier because I don’t need to be condescended to about a topic I am familiar with.

Change will not occur overnight. Women achieving social equality will effectively benefit everyone, so that men won’t feel locked out of certain industries or roles. No one deserves to feel as though their gender identity is an impairment.

madelini 9:38 am 21 Jul 16

Masquara said :

dungfungus said :

Blen_Carmichael said :

Maya123 said :

John Moulis said :

What’s the difference between choice and opportunity? Many men don’t get the choice or opportunity to look after their kids. Women get both the choice to abort or keep the kids and charge the guy child support, of which doesn’t count towards her income and doesn’t deduct off his?

In terms of starting a career, I found that I was heavy biased against when starting out in retail. Every other place just wanted female staff. Take a walk around the malls and retail shops and see how many of them are men.

Thus I was taught from a young age that I had to have a career and not a temp job. Women on the other hand have choices, its socially acceptable for a women to rely solely on a man for income. Yet a man who is unemployed would never be taken seriously as a date prospect.

The majority of those killed at work are men, those homeless are men, those expected to jump infront of bullets are men. Those most at risk of suicide and work related injuries.

I’m sure that the DV stats would be more even if the actual work was more even rather than the pay.

Choice is the result of opportunity. You can’t choose if you don’t have the option – in the same way that the marriage equality debate is not about marriage, it’s about being able to choose. Both women and men should have the opportunity to choose whether they work or are the primary caregiver at home; what they choose is irrelevant to having the chance to exercise their own agency.

In response to your “abortion choice” argument, a lot of women don’t get to choose if they fall pregnant or not. Also, it’s her body – I’m sure that if you had a womb, you would also like to have control over it, especially give the circumstances in which you can fall pregnant. Also, men can choose to reject a pregnancy after a certain point and opt out. It’s a little bit harder for women, especially after the 20 week stage. For the record, I don’t think the “radical third-wave feminists” you keep ranting about would be opposed to a review of the family court system. But hey, if you don’t want to make someone pregnant, or to fall pregnant, there are a lot of options to prevent it regardless of your gender.

You’re actually proving a point I made earlier. As a feminist, and a young woman, I would like to see equality across all industries, including retail and hospitality. Retail should be more open towards men. So should nursing. An increase in male early education teachers would be fantastic. Similarly, it would be wonderful to see more women in the science, tech and business fields, not to mention the trades. Feminism seeks equality; when it’s closer, perhaps it will be called equalism, but at the moment, the career struggle is stacked against women from the moment they try to pursue a career – which, believe it or not, is an expectation for women now; unemployment is a rare choice amongst women and all young people are encouraged to find their vocation instead of just working jobs.

All the points you raised are why we need feminism. We’re in a state of flux, but if enough people care, perhaps we will be seen as more than our chromosomal makeup. Surely that’s of benefit to both men and women?

That’s much more first and 2nd wave than 3rd wave. 3rd wave usually says there are no issues across both genders just that Men are in control and women are sub servant to men.

In terms of the abortion thing. I have no issues with women choosing to have an abortion (assuming its well before the birth of the child). However there is something wrong with putting a guy financially on the hook for a child that he may never to get to see given the mother might prevent it.

The best outcome financially is for women to get pregnant to one guy claim and move in with another to get a 2nd stream of income.

Would love to see more women in Tech, I think the critical age for women to get into tech is about 3-7 years old. The same age many women dump barbie dolls on their kids.

Its also a shame that’s its illegal to offer scholarships for males to become teachers, due to really stupid discrimination laws.

As a young feminist, I have a fair idea of current discussions about equality, and what current feminism seeks to achieve. I can’t make you change your opinions, but would request that you cease to mansplain feminism to a feminist. We do live in a patriarchal society; if you can’t see that, then that is because you have privileged from it. This is not your fault, but taking responsibility and seeking to better society for everyone will go a long way. It’s easy to feel victimised when you have benefitted from an ingrained social norm for your entire life, but it’s important to recognise that the system does not work for everyone.

You are wilfully choosing extreme arguments to prove your point. Current feminism seeks social equality. Currently, women are the ones who have to fight harder for equality of pay and opportunity in the workplace. What feminists want is the rights for women to have any career they choose and work towards; they don’t want hand outs, they want opportunity. The payoff is that men will also get the freedom to pursue careers of their choice – if that is retail, or opting to perform home duties, then feminism will work for them. Actively misinterpreting the push for equality does not mean that the definition is changed. Perhaps once men begin to actively work with women to achieve equality – which, shock! might actually require them to make room at the top! – workplace and scholarship quotas won’t need to exist. I don’t understand why you’re fighting this when the benefits for men are clear.

Most young feminists disagree with the way that family courts default to the mother, even when the father could be the better caregiver. You know why? Because feminists want equality. Taking advantage of other people (including men) is not in the feminist code of ethics.

Gender studies degree?

No. General dissatisfaction with the socialised lack of opportunity for women, and a choice to have critically engaged in the discourse.

madelini 9:36 am 21 Jul 16

HiddenDragon said :

dungfungus said :

….. but would request that you cease to mansplain feminism to a feminist…..

Most young feminists disagree with the way that family courts default to the mother, even when the father could be the better caregiver. You know why? Because feminists want equality. Taking advantage of other people (including men) is not in the feminist code of ethics.

“mansplain”, really. What an insulting term. Way to go in getting others to see your point of view.

And as for divorce, property settlements, the family court and child support agency, funny how these so called “feminists” enforce a non equitable outcome because its in their favor.

It is easy for men to patronise women, and it is very easy for them to take offence when they are called on it.

madelini 9:35 am 21 Jul 16

Acton said :

dungfungus said :

Blen_Carmichael said :

Maya123 said :

John Moulis said :

What’s the difference between choice and opportunity? Many men don’t get the choice or opportunity to look after their kids. Women get both the choice to abort or keep the kids and charge the guy child support, of which doesn’t count towards her income and doesn’t deduct off his?

In terms of starting a career, I found that I was heavy biased against when starting out in retail. Every other place just wanted female staff. Take a walk around the malls and retail shops and see how many of them are men.

Thus I was taught from a young age that I had to have a career and not a temp job. Women on the other hand have choices, its socially acceptable for a women to rely solely on a man for income. Yet a man who is unemployed would never be taken seriously as a date prospect.

The majority of those killed at work are men, those homeless are men, those expected to jump infront of bullets are men. Those most at risk of suicide and work related injuries.

I’m sure that the DV stats would be more even if the actual work was more even rather than the pay.

Choice is the result of opportunity. You can’t choose if you don’t have the option – in the same way that the marriage equality debate is not about marriage, it’s about being able to choose. Both women and men should have the opportunity to choose whether they work or are the primary caregiver at home; what they choose is irrelevant to having the chance to exercise their own agency.

In response to your “abortion choice” argument, a lot of women don’t get to choose if they fall pregnant or not. Also, it’s her body – I’m sure that if you had a womb, you would also like to have control over it, especially give the circumstances in which you can fall pregnant. Also, men can choose to reject a pregnancy after a certain point and opt out. It’s a little bit harder for women, especially after the 20 week stage. For the record, I don’t think the “radical third-wave feminists” you keep ranting about would be opposed to a review of the family court system. But hey, if you don’t want to make someone pregnant, or to fall pregnant, there are a lot of options to prevent it regardless of your gender.

You’re actually proving a point I made earlier. As a feminist, and a young woman, I would like to see equality across all industries, including retail and hospitality. Retail should be more open towards men. So should nursing. An increase in male early education teachers would be fantastic. Similarly, it would be wonderful to see more women in the science, tech and business fields, not to mention the trades. Feminism seeks equality; when it’s closer, perhaps it will be called equalism, but at the moment, the career struggle is stacked against women from the moment they try to pursue a career – which, believe it or not, is an expectation for women now; unemployment is a rare choice amongst women and all young people are encouraged to find their vocation instead of just working jobs.

All the points you raised are why we need feminism. We’re in a state of flux, but if enough people care, perhaps we will be seen as more than our chromosomal makeup. Surely that’s of benefit to both men and women?

That’s much more first and 2nd wave than 3rd wave. 3rd wave usually says there are no issues across both genders just that Men are in control and women are sub servant to men.

In terms of the abortion thing. I have no issues with women choosing to have an abortion (assuming its well before the birth of the child). However there is something wrong with putting a guy financially on the hook for a child that he may never to get to see given the mother might prevent it.

The best outcome financially is for women to get pregnant to one guy claim and move in with another to get a 2nd stream of income.

Would love to see more women in Tech, I think the critical age for women to get into tech is about 3-7 years old. The same age many women dump barbie dolls on their kids.

Its also a shame that’s its illegal to offer scholarships for males to become teachers, due to really stupid discrimination laws.

As a young feminist, I have a fair idea of current discussions about equality, and what current feminism seeks to achieve. I can’t make you change your opinions, but would request that you cease to mansplain feminism to a feminist. We do live in a patriarchal society; if you can’t see that, then that is because you have privileged from it. This is not your fault, but taking responsibility and seeking to better society for everyone will go a long way. It’s easy to feel victimised when you have benefitted from an ingrained social norm for your entire life, but it’s important to recognise that the system does not work for everyone.

You are wilfully choosing extreme arguments to prove your point. Current feminism seeks social equality. Currently, women are the ones who have to fight harder for equality of pay and opportunity in the workplace. What feminists want is the rights for women to have any career they choose and work towards; they don’t want hand outs, they want opportunity. The payoff is that men will also get the freedom to pursue careers of their choice – if that is retail, or opting to perform home duties, then feminism will work for them. Actively misinterpreting the push for equality does not mean that the definition is changed. Perhaps once men begin to actively work with women to achieve equality – which, shock! might actually require them to make room at the top! – workplace and scholarship quotas won’t need to exist. I don’t understand why you’re fighting this when the benefits for men are clear.

Most young feminists disagree with the way that family courts default to the mother, even when the father could be the better caregiver. You know why? Because feminists want equality. Taking advantage of other people (including men) is not in the feminist code of ethics.

Stopped reading at “mansplain”. Try arguing your point without defaulting to patronising and divisive buzzwords

Perhaps if feminism hadn’t been explained to me, a feminist, by a man in a condescending manner, I would not have used the word “mansplain”.

There is an excellent article called “Men Explain Things To Me”. Perhaps that will go a ways as to explaining why this term has been created, and then come in to common usage. If it did not accurately describe the phenomenon, I would not feel the need to use it.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/men-explain-things-to-me-_b_1811096

gooterz 9:33 pm 20 Jul 16

Like most articles about feminism most of the interesting comments never make it.

gooterz 5:56 pm 20 Jul 16

dungfungus said :

Blen_Carmichael said :

Maya123 said :

John Moulis said :

What’s the difference between choice and opportunity? Many men don’t get the choice or opportunity to look after their kids. Women get both the choice to abort or keep the kids and charge the guy child support, of which doesn’t count towards her income and doesn’t deduct off his?

In terms of starting a career, I found that I was heavy biased against when starting out in retail. Every other place just wanted female staff. Take a walk around the malls and retail shops and see how many of them are men.

Thus I was taught from a young age that I had to have a career and not a temp job. Women on the other hand have choices, its socially acceptable for a women to rely solely on a man for income. Yet a man who is unemployed would never be taken seriously as a date prospect.

The majority of those killed at work are men, those homeless are men, those expected to jump infront of bullets are men. Those most at risk of suicide and work related injuries.

I’m sure that the DV stats would be more even if the actual work was more even rather than the pay.

Choice is the result of opportunity. You can’t choose if you don’t have the option – in the same way that the marriage equality debate is not about marriage, it’s about being able to choose. Both women and men should have the opportunity to choose whether they work or are the primary caregiver at home; what they choose is irrelevant to having the chance to exercise their own agency.

In response to your “abortion choice” argument, a lot of women don’t get to choose if they fall pregnant or not. Also, it’s her body – I’m sure that if you had a womb, you would also like to have control over it, especially give the circumstances in which you can fall pregnant. Also, men can choose to reject a pregnancy after a certain point and opt out. It’s a little bit harder for women, especially after the 20 week stage. For the record, I don’t think the “radical third-wave feminists” you keep ranting about would be opposed to a review of the family court system. But hey, if you don’t want to make someone pregnant, or to fall pregnant, there are a lot of options to prevent it regardless of your gender.

You’re actually proving a point I made earlier. As a feminist, and a young woman, I would like to see equality across all industries, including retail and hospitality. Retail should be more open towards men. So should nursing. An increase in male early education teachers would be fantastic. Similarly, it would be wonderful to see more women in the science, tech and business fields, not to mention the trades. Feminism seeks equality; when it’s closer, perhaps it will be called equalism, but at the moment, the career struggle is stacked against women from the moment they try to pursue a career – which, believe it or not, is an expectation for women now; unemployment is a rare choice amongst women and all young people are encouraged to find their vocation instead of just working jobs.

All the points you raised are why we need feminism. We’re in a state of flux, but if enough people care, perhaps we will be seen as more than our chromosomal makeup. Surely that’s of benefit to both men and women?

That’s much more first and 2nd wave than 3rd wave. 3rd wave usually says there are no issues across both genders just that Men are in control and women are sub servant to men.

In terms of the abortion thing. I have no issues with women choosing to have an abortion (assuming its well before the birth of the child). However there is something wrong with putting a guy financially on the hook for a child that he may never to get to see given the mother might prevent it.

The best outcome financially is for women to get pregnant to one guy claim and move in with another to get a 2nd stream of income.

Would love to see more women in Tech, I think the critical age for women to get into tech is about 3-7 years old. The same age many women dump barbie dolls on their kids.

Its also a shame that’s its illegal to offer scholarships for males to become teachers, due to really stupid discrimination laws.

As a young feminist, I have a fair idea of current discussions about equality, and what current feminism seeks to achieve. I can’t make you change your opinions, but would request that you cease to mansplain feminism to a feminist. We do live in a patriarchal society; if you can’t see that, then that is because you have privileged from it. This is not your fault, but taking responsibility and seeking to better society for everyone will go a long way. It’s easy to feel victimised when you have benefitted from an ingrained social norm for your entire life, but it’s important to recognise that the system does not work for everyone.

You are wilfully choosing extreme arguments to prove your point. Current feminism seeks social equality. Currently, women are the ones who have to fight harder for equality of pay and opportunity in the workplace. What feminists want is the rights for women to have any career they choose and work towards; they don’t want hand outs, they want opportunity. The payoff is that men will also get the freedom to pursue careers of their choice – if that is retail, or opting to perform home duties, then feminism will work for them. Actively misinterpreting the push for equality does not mean that the definition is changed. Perhaps once men begin to actively work with women to achieve equality – which, shock! might actually require them to make room at the top! – workplace and scholarship quotas won’t need to exist. I don’t understand why you’re fighting this when the benefits for men are clear.

Most young feminists disagree with the way that family courts default to the mother, even when the father could be the better caregiver. You know why? Because feminists want equality. Taking advantage of other people (including men) is not in the feminist code of ethics.

Gender studies degree?

gooterz 5:54 pm 20 Jul 16

wildturkeycanoe said :

Blen_Carmichael said :

Would love to see more women in Tech, I think the critical age for women to get into tech is about 3-7 years old. The same age many women dump barbie dolls on their kids.

Parenting is certainly one influence over children’s choices and abilities, although it’s not the only one.

You’ll notice it’s easy to create artificial hiring policies (as the ABS has done) in order to skew hirings for management positions and deliver what the feminists call “gender equity”.

When it comes to jobs that require strictly defined skills (eg, technical, science and engineering), you discover that you can’t magically deliver a gender balance – it only works where standards are difficult to define, can be degraded without anybody noticing, or can just be ignored.

The reason that despite women now scoring close to 60% of university places, they still only represent less than 15% of undergraduate places in Science and Engineering can’t possibly only be about poor parenting.

What job does a gender studies degree help you with. Arts degree alone are pretty useless.

sputnik 5:07 pm 20 Jul 16

dungfungus said :

You’re actually proving a point I made earlier.[/QUOTE]
She said referring to his whining about alleged bias in retail jobs (or childcare jobs, or nursing jobs).
Right, that was manswhining and really didn’t help any arguments. But it didn’t prove any points you made.
Personally, I believe we men have equal opportunity to get jobs as childcare worker or nurses. I would be curious to see how many men actually apply for these jobs. I would hate to see an affirmative action in hiring policy for these jobs.
Actually, he inadvertently made an excellent point. There was no legal barrier for him to get into a retail job. At least no legal barrier related to gender. All he did was come up with an excuse why he wasn’t hired other than his actual qualifications (or maybe just dumb luck of others).

dungfungus said :

As a young feminist, I have a fair idea of current discussions about equality, and what current feminism seeks to achieve.[/QUOTE]
This one made me laugh. You say that as if it is a qualification to be young and to be a feminist. I highly doubt even the crusty old feminist from the gender studies department or the chauvinist pig director of the sociology department knows that. Google scholar says “about 19,800” results since 2016 about feminism. That’s probably only scratching the surface. Hubris…

dungfungus said :

I would like to see equality across all industries[/QUOTE]
If by equality you mean equal opportunity and rights (and equal including not only genders, but also age and where you were born, what you eat etc.) then I’m all in.
Personally, I don’t need any more arguments, extreme or moderate.

dungfungus said :

Feminism seeks equality; when it’s closer, perhaps it will be called equalism,

All the points you raised are why we need feminism.

So before feminism we has femininity?

Mysteryman 2:41 pm 20 Jul 16

dungfungus said :

Blen_Carmichael said :

Maya123 said :

John Moulis said :

What’s the difference between choice and opportunity? Many men don’t get the choice or opportunity to look after their kids. Women get both the choice to abort or keep the kids and charge the guy child support, of which doesn’t count towards her income and doesn’t deduct off his?

In terms of starting a career, I found that I was heavy biased against when starting out in retail. Every other place just wanted female staff. Take a walk around the malls and retail shops and see how many of them are men.

Thus I was taught from a young age that I had to have a career and not a temp job. Women on the other hand have choices, its socially acceptable for a women to rely solely on a man for income. Yet a man who is unemployed would never be taken seriously as a date prospect.

The majority of those killed at work are men, those homeless are men, those expected to jump infront of bullets are men. Those most at risk of suicide and work related injuries.

I’m sure that the DV stats would be more even if the actual work was more even rather than the pay.

Choice is the result of opportunity. You can’t choose if you don’t have the option – in the same way that the marriage equality debate is not about marriage, it’s about being able to choose. Both women and men should have the opportunity to choose whether they work or are the primary caregiver at home; what they choose is irrelevant to having the chance to exercise their own agency.

In response to your “abortion choice” argument, a lot of women don’t get to choose if they fall pregnant or not. Also, it’s her body – I’m sure that if you had a womb, you would also like to have control over it, especially give the circumstances in which you can fall pregnant. Also, men can choose to reject a pregnancy after a certain point and opt out. It’s a little bit harder for women, especially after the 20 week stage. For the record, I don’t think the “radical third-wave feminists” you keep ranting about would be opposed to a review of the family court system. But hey, if you don’t want to make someone pregnant, or to fall pregnant, there are a lot of options to prevent it regardless of your gender.

You’re actually proving a point I made earlier. As a feminist, and a young woman, I would like to see equality across all industries, including retail and hospitality. Retail should be more open towards men. So should nursing. An increase in male early education teachers would be fantastic. Similarly, it would be wonderful to see more women in the science, tech and business fields, not to mention the trades. Feminism seeks equality; when it’s closer, perhaps it will be called equalism, but at the moment, the career struggle is stacked against women from the moment they try to pursue a career – which, believe it or not, is an expectation for women now; unemployment is a rare choice amongst women and all young people are encouraged to find their vocation instead of just working jobs.

All the points you raised are why we need feminism. We’re in a state of flux, but if enough people care, perhaps we will be seen as more than our chromosomal makeup. Surely that’s of benefit to both men and women?

That’s much more first and 2nd wave than 3rd wave. 3rd wave usually says there are no issues across both genders just that Men are in control and women are sub servant to men.

In terms of the abortion thing. I have no issues with women choosing to have an abortion (assuming its well before the birth of the child). However there is something wrong with putting a guy financially on the hook for a child that he may never to get to see given the mother might prevent it.

The best outcome financially is for women to get pregnant to one guy claim and move in with another to get a 2nd stream of income.

Would love to see more women in Tech, I think the critical age for women to get into tech is about 3-7 years old. The same age many women dump barbie dolls on their kids.

Its also a shame that’s its illegal to offer scholarships for males to become teachers, due to really stupid discrimination laws.

As a young feminist, I have a fair idea of current discussions about equality, and what current feminism seeks to achieve. I can’t make you change your opinions, but would request that you cease to mansplain feminism to a feminist. We do live in a patriarchal society; if you can’t see that, then that is because you have privileged from it. This is not your fault, but taking responsibility and seeking to better society for everyone will go a long way. It’s easy to feel victimised when you have benefitted from an ingrained social norm for your entire life, but it’s important to recognise that the system does not work for everyone.

You are wilfully choosing extreme arguments to prove your point. Current feminism seeks social equality. Currently, women are the ones who have to fight harder for equality of pay and opportunity in the workplace. What feminists want is the rights for women to have any career they choose and work towards; they don’t want hand outs, they want opportunity. The payoff is that men will also get the freedom to pursue careers of their choice – if that is retail, or opting to perform home duties, then feminism will work for them. Actively misinterpreting the push for equality does not mean that the definition is changed. Perhaps once men begin to actively work with women to achieve equality – which, shock! might actually require them to make room at the top! – workplace and scholarship quotas won’t need to exist. I don’t understand why you’re fighting this when the benefits for men are clear.

Most young feminists disagree with the way that family courts default to the mother, even when the father could be the better caregiver. You know why? Because feminists want equality. Taking advantage of other people (including men) is not in the feminist code of ethics.

Stopped reading at “mansplain”. Try arguing your point without defaulting to patronising and divisive buzzwords

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