Mormon Missionaries – A Religious Irony

I am fairly confident that the Concerned citizens of Gungahlin would not bat an eyelid if the Anglican Church was planning to build in the same area as the planned mosque.

Southmouth said :

Kalliste said :

Southmouth said :

Kalliste said :

Southmouth said :

For some religions, fanaticism takes the form of door knocking or working with the poor. For others it is killing the unrepentant. Not all communities are as comfortable with the later.

Some also wear white cloaks and want to purify society in the name of Christianity but that doesn’t stop us allowing people of christian faith to worship wherever they like.

And in this case we shouldn’t stop a Mosque being built because of the reputation extremists have.

I’m not sure how many KKK members have been recruited in Australian churches but I expect it is a number close to 0.

Are you suggesting mosques in Australia knowingly recruit terrorists?

What I am saying is that Australians are being recruited to jihad while they are in Australia.

Which was confirmed on ABC TV News tonight.
I have it on good authority that the recruiting doesn’t happen at the local pub.

So no takers on the missionary position of calling 18 year olds “Elder”? It’s on their name tags.

From my fairly limited knowledge and dealings with Muslims, my experience is that yes, you visit them in their home countries they are welcoming. I went with non-Muslim friends to visit homes after Ramadan in a foreign country and I was made welcome and offered food. But it was more polite than warm. My Muslim tenant in my house let another tenant (a very religious Hindu) and me accompany her to the Canberra mosque after Ramadan ended. No-one else there spoke to my Hindu tenant or me or showed any interest in us. We were not welcomed; we were ignored. The Hindu tenant invited the Muslim and me to her religious festivals. I went, but the Muslim tenant refused, saying she wasn’t allowed and mustn’t. She was not willing to learn and experience other religions. I told her no-one expected her to convert, but it is interesting to learn about others. I said the Hindu was not going to convert, but was interested to learn more about other religions. But, NO, the Muslim wouldn’t, and she is not the only individual I have met with this outlook. The difference how I was treated at the Hindu festivals was so different to how I had been ignored at the Muslim mosque. At the Hindu festival I was made very welcome and offered food, invited back, told I could use someone’s private temple if I wanted to. The welcome was so warm. So even though I was not Hindu I was warmly welcomed, but I have always felt I would only be warmly received by Muslims if I was Muslim. Sure I have been treated politely, but that is different to being warmly treated.
I have read half the Koran. Until I did that I was much more so called ‘liberal’ in my views. The Koran frightened me in what it says. Before anyone makes ignorant liberal approaches to this religion, please read the Koran. It is scary.

watto23 said :

There are some points about how its not ok for one religion but perfectly ok for another religion. ie certain religions got here first so anything they do is perfectly ok, but how dare another religion with different opinions want to practice their religion in a building of worship as well!

Where is the issue? Who says ‘its not ok for one religion (Islam) but perfectly ok for another”? The whole protest composed of a few fringe nut bags who aren’t locals and whose whose protest failed some time ago. Hardly a groundswell of intolerance.

Apparently though, their activities are JUST relevant enough to be dredged up as part of some commentary on a few harmless Christian door knockers, some unspecified Christian killings and the Catholic child abuse scandal.

All in a post ostensibly about tolerance. Yeah right.

justin heywood said :

What is the point of this article? Bait a few bigoted Islamophobes? A chance for the usual suspects to air some anti-Christian sentiments ( and that’s not bigotry of course).

The challenge to the mosque being built was thrown out of court, and the building has already begun. The relevance of this to Mormon missionaries is not clear.

The only irony I can see is that, on a board where local politics is always a hot topic, it is the one subject that John Hargreaves seems reluctant to discuss.

There are some points about how its not ok for one religion but perfectly ok for another religion. ie certain religions got here first so anything they do is perfectly ok, but how dare another religion with different opinions want to practice their religion in a building of worship as well!

One can argue that the terrorism committed by extremist Muslims is as bad as it gets, but it doesn’t mean because you don’t kill anyone you aren’t doing as much harm or anything wrong. In my day to day activities, Christianity based religions are generally far more intrusive into my life than any Muslim based religion. Although it upsets me what terrorist are doing to innocent people, it doesn’t affect me personally. Having door knockers and religious lobby groups making sure the government does policies approved by them, is far more intrusive on me.

I’m more than happy to tolerate all religions. Just don’t tell me what I can and can’t do by your own religious standards. Your religion is your choice (actually its often not which is sad), you are free to practice it within the laws of Australia.

justin heywood said :

What is the point of this article? Bait a few bigoted Islamophobes? A chance for the usual suspects to air some anti-Christian sentiments ( and that’s not bigotry of course).

This. +1.

What is the point of this article? Bait a few bigoted Islamophobes? A chance for the usual suspects to air some anti-Christian sentiments ( and that’s not bigotry of course).

The challenge to the mosque being built was thrown out of court, and the building has already begun. The relevance of this to Mormon missionaries is not clear.

The only irony I can see is that, on a board where local politics is always a hot topic, it is the one subject that John Hargreaves seems reluctant to discuss.

dungfungus said :

watto23 said :

Kalliste said :

Southmouth said :

Kalliste said :

Southmouth said :

For some religions, fanaticism takes the form of door knocking or working with the poor. For others it is killing the unrepentant. Not all communities are as comfortable with the later.

Some also wear white cloaks and want to purify society in the name of Christianity but that doesn’t stop us allowing people of christian faith to worship wherever they like.

And in this case we shouldn’t stop a Mosque being built because of the reputation extremists have.

I’m not sure how many KKK members have been recruited in Australian churches but I expect it is a number close to 0.

Are you suggesting mosques in Australia knowingly recruit terrorists?

I’m convinced that people do believe this is the case but are also most likely the least informed people to be making this statement.
Are there extremists in Australia? definitely. I’d like to think our various gov agencies know about who they are though and thus the “raised” terror threat.
But it doesn’t mean the majority are, many of whom fled countries because of said terrorists.

Its not like extremist christians haven’t killed people either and we don’t assume all christians are as bad as the worst of them.

The Jonestown massacre would be a good example of this.

Hideous crime is hideous crime. Criminal acts in spite of professed religion. There have been few, if any modern examples (ie since people became literate) of Christians waging Holy war and you won’t find any direction or even vague excuse to do it in the New Testament.

watto23 said :

Kalliste said :

Southmouth said :

Kalliste said :

Southmouth said :

For some religions, fanaticism takes the form of door knocking or working with the poor. For others it is killing the unrepentant. Not all communities are as comfortable with the later.

Some also wear white cloaks and want to purify society in the name of Christianity but that doesn’t stop us allowing people of christian faith to worship wherever they like.

And in this case we shouldn’t stop a Mosque being built because of the reputation extremists have.

I’m not sure how many KKK members have been recruited in Australian churches but I expect it is a number close to 0.

Are you suggesting mosques in Australia knowingly recruit terrorists?

I’m convinced that people do believe this is the case but are also most likely the least informed people to be making this statement.
Are there extremists in Australia? definitely. I’d like to think our various gov agencies know about who they are though and thus the “raised” terror threat.
But it doesn’t mean the majority are, many of whom fled countries because of said terrorists.

Its not like extremist christians haven’t killed people either and we don’t assume all christians are as bad as the worst of them.

The Jonestown massacre would be a good example of this.

Kalliste said :

Southmouth said :

Kalliste said :

Southmouth said :

For some religions, fanaticism takes the form of door knocking or working with the poor. For others it is killing the unrepentant. Not all communities are as comfortable with the later.

Some also wear white cloaks and want to purify society in the name of Christianity but that doesn’t stop us allowing people of christian faith to worship wherever they like.

And in this case we shouldn’t stop a Mosque being built because of the reputation extremists have.

I’m not sure how many KKK members have been recruited in Australian churches but I expect it is a number close to 0.

Are you suggesting mosques in Australia knowingly recruit terrorists?

What I am saying is that Australians are being recruited to jihad while they are in Australia.

dtc said :

dungfungus said :

I found this on the net:

“Following the Nairobi massacre, Somali community leaders in Australia warned that education authorities had ignored calls to regulate madrassas, or religious schools, which were free to teach radical religious doctrines to young people and could be a fertile ground for recruiting jihadists in Australia for terrorist groups such as al-Shabab.

Somali Cultural Association president Aden Ibrahim said he and his colleagues had urged state and federal authorities for the past five years to close a loophole that had allowed religious leaders to set up the schools in Australia without any regulation of, or control over, the curriculum.

The schools, which operate on weekends and after school hours, are run out of suburban mosques and are supposed to teach Somali language and culture. But, Mr Ibrahim said, in the absence of proper oversight they sometimes promoted hardline religious doctrines.”

BTW, Australian taxpayers fund these madrassas.

1. I doubt the taxpayer funds the madrassas. Perhaps very indirectly through a community grant or something

2. don’t underestimate internecine politics when considering who is making the statements and the content of those statements

3. are you proposing that we should regulate any and all groups of any kind, just in case they say something you disagree with? Catch the Fire Ministry should be on the list, just as an aside.

Re funding of madrassas in Australia: http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/madrassa-lessons-worry-somalis/story-e6frg6nf-1226725553794
Australia is also funding madrassas in Indonesia and Somalia. I am sure you know how to validate this on the internet.
I am not proposing anything, just passing on the facts that somepeople don’t like to hear about.

dungfungus said :

I found this on the net:

“Following the Nairobi massacre, Somali community leaders in Australia warned that education authorities had ignored calls to regulate madrassas, or religious schools, which were free to teach radical religious doctrines to young people and could be a fertile ground for recruiting jihadists in Australia for terrorist groups such as al-Shabab.

Somali Cultural Association president Aden Ibrahim said he and his colleagues had urged state and federal authorities for the past five years to close a loophole that had allowed religious leaders to set up the schools in Australia without any regulation of, or control over, the curriculum.

The schools, which operate on weekends and after school hours, are run out of suburban mosques and are supposed to teach Somali language and culture. But, Mr Ibrahim said, in the absence of proper oversight they sometimes promoted hardline religious doctrines.”

BTW, Australian taxpayers fund these madrassas.

1. I doubt the taxpayer funds the madrassas. Perhaps very indirectly through a community grant or something

2. don’t underestimate internecine politics when considering who is making the statements and the content of those statements

3. are you proposing that we should regulate any and all groups of any kind, just in case they say something you disagree with? Catch the Fire Ministry should be on the list, just as an aside.

Kalliste said :

Southmouth said :

Kalliste said :

Southmouth said :

For some religions, fanaticism takes the form of door knocking or working with the poor. For others it is killing the unrepentant. Not all communities are as comfortable with the later.

Some also wear white cloaks and want to purify society in the name of Christianity but that doesn’t stop us allowing people of christian faith to worship wherever they like.

And in this case we shouldn’t stop a Mosque being built because of the reputation extremists have.

I’m not sure how many KKK members have been recruited in Australian churches but I expect it is a number close to 0.

Are you suggesting mosques in Australia knowingly recruit terrorists?

I’m convinced that people do believe this is the case but are also most likely the least informed people to be making this statement.
Are there extremists in Australia? definitely. I’d like to think our various gov agencies know about who they are though and thus the “raised” terror threat.
But it doesn’t mean the majority are, many of whom fled countries because of said terrorists.

Its not like extremist christians haven’t killed people either and we don’t assume all christians are as bad as the worst of them.

Southmouth said :

Kalliste said :

Southmouth said :

For some religions, fanaticism takes the form of door knocking or working with the poor. For others it is killing the unrepentant. Not all communities are as comfortable with the later.

Some also wear white cloaks and want to purify society in the name of Christianity but that doesn’t stop us allowing people of christian faith to worship wherever they like.

And in this case we shouldn’t stop a Mosque being built because of the reputation extremists have.

I’m not sure how many KKK members have been recruited in Australian churches but I expect it is a number close to 0.

No but plenty have had child abuse cases which the church conveniently pushed under the carpet. They might not be killing anyone in suicide bombings, but have done a lot of harm in the community.

Kalliste said :

Southmouth said :

Kalliste said :

Southmouth said :

For some religions, fanaticism takes the form of door knocking or working with the poor. For others it is killing the unrepentant. Not all communities are as comfortable with the later.

Some also wear white cloaks and want to purify society in the name of Christianity but that doesn’t stop us allowing people of christian faith to worship wherever they like.

And in this case we shouldn’t stop a Mosque being built because of the reputation extremists have.

I’m not sure how many KKK members have been recruited in Australian churches but I expect it is a number close to 0.

Are you suggesting mosques in Australia knowingly recruit terrorists?

I found this on the net:

“Following the Nairobi massacre, Somali community leaders in Australia warned that education authorities had ignored calls to regulate madrassas, or religious schools, which were free to teach radical religious doctrines to young people and could be a fertile ground for recruiting jihadists in Australia for terrorist groups such as al-Shabab.

Somali Cultural Association president Aden Ibrahim said he and his colleagues had urged state and federal authorities for the past five years to close a loophole that had allowed religious leaders to set up the schools in Australia without any regulation of, or control over, the curriculum.

The schools, which operate on weekends and after school hours, are run out of suburban mosques and are supposed to teach Somali language and culture. But, Mr Ibrahim said, in the absence of proper oversight they sometimes promoted hardline religious doctrines.”

BTW, Australian taxpayers fund these madrassas.

Southmouth said :

Kalliste said :

Southmouth said :

For some religions, fanaticism takes the form of door knocking or working with the poor. For others it is killing the unrepentant. Not all communities are as comfortable with the later.

Some also wear white cloaks and want to purify society in the name of Christianity but that doesn’t stop us allowing people of christian faith to worship wherever they like.

And in this case we shouldn’t stop a Mosque being built because of the reputation extremists have.

I’m not sure how many KKK members have been recruited in Australian churches but I expect it is a number close to 0.

Are you suggesting mosques in Australia knowingly recruit terrorists?

Kalliste said :

Southmouth said :

For some religions, fanaticism takes the form of door knocking or working with the poor. For others it is killing the unrepentant. Not all communities are as comfortable with the later.

Some also wear white cloaks and want to purify society in the name of Christianity but that doesn’t stop us allowing people of christian faith to worship wherever they like.

And in this case we shouldn’t stop a Mosque being built because of the reputation extremists have.

“And in this case we shouldn’t stop a Mosque being built because of the reputation extremists have”.
Ah, but who are the extremists?

Kalliste said :

Southmouth said :

For some religions, fanaticism takes the form of door knocking or working with the poor. For others it is killing the unrepentant. Not all communities are as comfortable with the later.

Some also wear white cloaks and want to purify society in the name of Christianity but that doesn’t stop us allowing people of christian faith to worship wherever they like.

And in this case we shouldn’t stop a Mosque being built because of the reputation extremists have.

I’m not sure how many KKK members have been recruited in Australian churches but I expect it is a number close to 0.

Southmouth said :

For some religions, fanaticism takes the form of door knocking or working with the poor. For others it is killing the unrepentant. Not all communities are as comfortable with the later.

Some also wear white cloaks and want to purify society in the name of Christianity but that doesn’t stop us allowing people of christian faith to worship wherever they like.

And in this case we shouldn’t stop a Mosque being built because of the reputation extremists have.

urchin said :

i don’t understand why a defense of the gungahlin mosque had to be wrapped in a backhanded criticism of mormons and jehovah’s witnesses. it seems to me to be somewhat counterproductive if one is arguing for religious tolerance. after all, the problem is not the particular religion but rather the bigotry.

for the most part i don’t see any real issues with the way the whole thing has played out. people, even nutters, ought to have the right to make their case. they have been given that right and common sense and justice has prevailed in that they have lost their case every step of the way. i do hope, however, that they are being forced to pay court costs on both sides, and if their lawsuits are deemed to be simply obstructionist then they should be liable for damages. the legal system, though, appears to be working fine.

what is more this case has raised awareness of the fact that bigotry continues to be a real problem in canberra. we can’t blame it all on us-based hate groups.

I have no real problem with mosques (as long as the turn down the Tannoy) but I get suspicious when only men attend them and run them.

For some religions, fanaticism takes the form of door knocking or working with the poor. For others it is killing the unrepentant. Not all communities are as comfortable with the later.

i don’t understand why a defense of the gungahlin mosque had to be wrapped in a backhanded criticism of mormons and jehovah’s witnesses. it seems to me to be somewhat counterproductive if one is arguing for religious tolerance. after all, the problem is not the particular religion but rather the bigotry.

for the most part i don’t see any real issues with the way the whole thing has played out. people, even nutters, ought to have the right to make their case. they have been given that right and common sense and justice has prevailed in that they have lost their case every step of the way. i do hope, however, that they are being forced to pay court costs on both sides, and if their lawsuits are deemed to be simply obstructionist then they should be liable for damages. the legal system, though, appears to be working fine.

what is more this case has raised awareness of the fact that bigotry continues to be a real problem in canberra. we can’t blame it all on us-based hate groups.

Having people knock on your door once a year to ask if you’re interested in their religious flavour is a small price to pay for living in a tolerant and culturally varied society.

Let the Muslims have their mosques, let the Christians have their churches, let everyone else have what they want too.

Life in Australia is great.

Unfortunately, ScienceRules, religion has not been kept out of government.

I have seen the said missionaries around Queanbeyan lately. I often wonder how they arrived at the position that an 18 year old kid in a shirt and tie is an “Elder”…

Someone else suggested you meant Woy Woy.
Wee Waa is near Narrabri, not Gosford.
So far, that has been the most interesting comment on this thread.

I wouldn’t want to walk from Wee Waa to Gosford, John.
That would be a pilgrimage.
Woy Woy, perhaps?

Other than that, good article

Totally agree. I usually find muslims less intrusive into my life than a variety of the Christianity based faiths. Thing is media likes to paint a picture that equates islam with terrorism. Yet ask any traveler who have been to an Islamic country and they’ll tell you the people are really lovely people, who often have not much, but are happy to share food with you. They live in fear of the terrorist probably more so.

I find the opponents to a religion are often from another religion who somehow feel threatened, usually based on incorrect facts.

I remember early on in the protest the ignorance was shown when the Concerned Citizens said they didn’t want to hear to call to prayers all day and night. Yet this was never going to be the case in a non muslim country. It serves little purpose. However I’ve heard many a church bell ring on a Sunday morning, which is apparently acceptable to these concerned Citizens.

Canberra though does have a high level of tolerance, probably due to a reasonably high level of education. So while a minority can try to make life difficult for people trying to go about their lives, the majority are IMO generally understanding.

Good post, John and I agree with your outlook. Personally I’m an atheist but would have no problem with religious communities building their places of worship as long as they comply with local rules etc. We live in a secular society here in Australia and long may it stay that way. This means that religion should be kept out of Government and public policy but allowed to flourish as a private entity.

I’m not familiar with the brouhaha that you’re referring to in Gunghalin. Can someone enlighten me?