Mouat Street and Ginninderra Drive - a fatality waiting to happen

I shouldn’t really be surprised that some managed to turn this into a car vs cyclist rant…

I noticed the lights were gone the other day. I cannot remember ever stopping there when I drive there though. Not that it matters, it just is a dangerous spot for a zebra crossing.

Maybe not quite as dangerous as the new one they made at the turn off from Kings Ave bridge onto the Parkway though. The first time I saw that one – when I was already too close to have been able to stop – I could just not believe that anyone in their right mind could’ve even considered making a crossing there. And without lights at that. If you drive there regularly, you know to take care, though it’s just not a good spot to slow down as you have to merge into fast flowing traffic a few metres further.

OT, but the rules regarding zebra crossings and pedestrian lights are confusing to say the least. I tried to get a zebra crossing on Knox St, close to the primary school as it is quite dangerous to cross there with kids. But I was told that they could not put a zebra crossing there because “it is only busy in peak hour and it would be unfair to make cars slow down there the rest of the day when there’s no pedestrians crossing”. I think they even said that cars would not expect pedestrians there if they are only there during those peak times and would then start ignoring the crossing. Huh?

tidalik said :

stormboy said :

Have you not realised that there is a lovely new shared path for your use on the OTHER side of Mouat St and you can use the pedestrian lights to get you there from Nth Lyneham? It has got to be better to cross the entry to a carpark than where the new zebra crossing is.This then links up with a new set of pedestrian lights at the top of the Sullivans Creek path.

It’s been a few months since I rode this route, but I recall that you couldn’t cross across the carpark entrance. There simply wasn’t a crossing – you would have had to go onto the road to get around concrete median. It seemed crazy to me to build a beaut new cycle path and then make it really difficult to get onto that path.

the last time i rode it (also a few months) this was the case which is CRAZY! there is an ‘on ramp’ onto the start of the path from the road ie assuming that the cyclists will be joining from the road – either ginniderra or ellenborough). other than that there are only ‘hard’ entries or exits over the gutters.

The most amusing thing is that there’s an overpass a couple of hundred yards North of the crossing.

stormboy said :

Have you not realised that there is a lovely new shared path for your use on the OTHER side of Mouat St and you can use the pedestrian lights to get you there from Nth Lyneham? It has got to be better to cross the entry to a carpark than where the new zebra crossing is.This then links up with a new set of pedestrian lights at the top of the Sullivans Creek path.

It’s been a few months since I rode this route, but I recall that you couldn’t cross across the carpark entrance. There simply wasn’t a crossing – you would have had to go onto the road to get around concrete median. It seemed crazy to me to build a beaut new cycle path and then make it really difficult to get onto that path.

borizuka said :

Last nite was my first time driving there for a while, and automatically I assumed the lights were still there and missed a cyclist that was slowly approaching the crossing. my bad…

You should have hit her!

Grail said :

curlylocks said :

Please you cannot be serious !!!!!!!!!!!

Here’s a question, please answer without resorting to “it’s the law”: why does the law require cyclists to dismount at pedestrian crossings?

What part of ‘pedestrian’ don’t you understand? Bicycles are considered vehicles by law. Cyclists with right of way across pedestrian crossings (meaning they can assume to cross without taking necessary precautions, e.g. slowing down, checking they can cross safely) is recipe for disaster.

devils_advocate said :

Grail said :

Here’s a question, please answer without resorting to “it’s the law”: why does the law require cyclists to dismount at pedestrian crossings?

Not sure if this is a rhetorical question, but given some of the answers up here, it might not be – so anyway, as a primary schooler I was always taught you had to walk across so that you approached the intersection slowly and cars had a chance to spot you and stop. If you belt across at 20kph neither the cyclist or the car has an opportunity to stop.

+1

As a pedestrian, even if it’s a crossing, I always gauge whether a car will just go through or not. I NEVER assume that I can walk through without looking.

As a driver, I get really irked when someone zooms across the crossing at night… it’s like a black cat darting out. What happens if a cyclist zooms across and HITS any pedestrians on the way? Who’s fault is it now? God forbid the pedestrian be blamed for walking too slow.

Isn’t it called “Pedestrian crossing” for a reason??? Aren’t bikes classified as vehicles?

devils_advocate said :

Grail said :

Here’s a question, please answer without resorting to “it’s the law”: why does the law require cyclists to dismount at pedestrian crossings?

Not sure if this is a rhetorical question, but given some of the answers up here, it might not be – so anyway, as a primary schooler I was always taught you had to walk across so that you approached the intersection slowly and cars had a chance to spot you and stop. If you belt across at 20kph neither the cyclist or the car has an opportunity to stop.

Exactly. People can be difficult to see, particularly if it’s later in the evening and they aren’t wearing bright clothing. Pedestrians and cyclists and motorcycles need to take particular care when interacting with traffic because they are smaller targets. This is why you stop and wait for traffic, and this is why you should dismount and wait for traffic to stop when your on a bike. It’s looking out for your own safety and not putting that safety in someone else’s hands.

Grail said :

Here’s a question, please answer without resorting to “it’s the law”: why does the law require cyclists to dismount at pedestrian crossings?

Not sure if this is a rhetorical question, but given some of the answers up here, it might not be – so anyway, as a primary schooler I was always taught you had to walk across so that you approached the intersection slowly and cars had a chance to spot you and stop. If you belt across at 20kph neither the cyclist or the car has an opportunity to stop.

Rollersk8r said :

Update: Yellow signs installed and traffic light poles removed since this morning. In a few seconds on the way home I saw 3 cars stop for pedestrians, and 3 that didn’t.

Last night I saw a battered Holden Berlina careen through at about 70ks, using half the on road cycle lane. Next up was an enormous SUV, the surprised driver just managed to stop before the crossing. Another small car (following the SUV) had to step on the brakes – fortunately the driver avoided a rear ender.

You might want argue the case that there is an increased risk of rear end prangs?

farnarkler said :

use the purpose built bikepath on the other side of Mouat St. By using it you don’t have to worry about traffic in and out of the Old Canberra Inn, Boyd and Brigalow Streets.

You just have to worry about crossing Mouat St twice 🙂

Arthur McKenzie said :

This pedestrian crossing has been a death-trap for years. ACT Police Traffic Operations couldn’t care less about speeding and inattention by maniac drivers at the corner but what’s new. They work on the outmoded black-spot methodology so a few of you have to die before it gets fixed or managed professionally.

The smart move is to use the new bike/pedestrian path on the north side of Mouatt St. All that needs to be done is to adjust the timing on the pedestrian crossing lights so that pedestrians and cyclist don’t have to wait any longer than cars. The adjustment is about half an hours work and should have been done by the installer of the new lights. We’ve already paid for it, taxpayers!

Don’t hold your breath waiting though, the ACT rubbish government is focussed on putting brothels in the suburbs at the moment. It’s all a matter of priorities folks.

Death trap? How many fatalaties have occurred there?

Yes, definitely highlight the fat that is crossing there now. And the thin as well.

borizuka said :

I only noticed this last night… something needs to be done to highlight the fat that there is now a crossing there.

curlylocks said :

Please you cannot be serious !!!!!!!!!!!

Here’s a question, please answer without resorting to “it’s the law”: why does the law require cyclists to dismount at pedestrian crossings?

I have no problem with pedestrian crossing and I usually give way to cyclists but … I agree there is a potential accident waiting to happen here, with the speed of cars turning at this intersection and cyclists not obeying the road rules.

On the weekend, a couple of small kids on bikes came hooting across Ginninderra Road weaving through the line of cars (that were waiting to turn right into Mouat) and straight across the pedestrian crossing at speed.

I stopped in time …but only just. As they pedalled away, my passanger rolled down his window and called out to them (probably 7 or 8 years olds) to watch out or they could be hurt, only to receive a torrent of abuse which included, ironically, “it’s a f**king pedestrian crossing”. Charming.

This pedestrian crossing has been a death-trap for years. ACT Police Traffic Operations couldn’t care less about speeding and inattention by maniac drivers at the corner but what’s new. They work on the outmoded black-spot methodology so a few of you have to die before it gets fixed or managed professionally.

The smart move is to use the new bike/pedestrian path on the north side of Mouatt St. All that needs to be done is to adjust the timing on the pedestrian crossing lights so that pedestrians and cyclist don’t have to wait any longer than cars. The adjustment is about half an hours work and should have been done by the installer of the new lights. We’ve already paid for it, taxpayers!

Don’t hold your breath waiting though, the ACT rubbish government is focussed on putting brothels in the suburbs at the moment. It’s all a matter of priorities folks.

I only noticed this last night… something needs to be done to highlight the fat that there is now a crossing there.

Last nite was my first time driving there for a while, and automatically I assumed the lights were still there and missed a cyclist that was slowly approaching the crossing. my bad…

curlylocks said :

Please you cannot be serious !!!!!!!!!!!

Totally. ok, maybe the car drivers should also be made to wear bicycle shoes while pushing their cars through pedestrian crossings.

Can’t be any different to Northbourne left turn onto the Barton Highway.

stormboy said :

Have you not realised that there is a lovely new shared path for your use on the OTHER side of Mouat St and you can use the pedestrian lights to get you there from Nth Lyneham? It has got to be better to cross the entry to a carpark than where the new zebra crossing is.This then links up with a new set of pedestrian lights at the top of the Sullivans Creek path.

Sure, Cyclists and pedestrians shouldn’t try and access areas on the other side of the road because they get in the way of all those motorists who can’t slow down.

Deref said :

stormboy said :

Have you not realised that there is a lovely new shared path for your use on the OTHER side of Mouat St

I’m constantly amazed by the number of cyclists who insist on riding on the road when there’s a perfectly good shared path available.

They have a right to ride on the road, of course. They also have a right to hammer nails into their skull, but that doesn’t mean it’s a good idea.

They are not a perfectly good as they seem often they just connect up to footpaths (or just to nowhere in particular) and while they follow the road for some stretches they don’t reach the same places, also there isn’t usually any good place to switch between the two so when you use one you can’t change to the other when it starts leading in the direction you actually want.

as a usual frequent pedestrian and cyclist user of this particular spot, it’s interesting to hear that this crossing has been converted from a traffic light crossing to a plain zebra crossing because as many other have said here, it is a bloody awful crossing point full stop.

i always meant to – but never got around to it – write into the roads authority to request that it be changed in the way the crossing traffic lights operated because the time between pressing the button and the light (for cars) changing to red is extraordinarily long (seriously, not a patience issue on my behalf) – so long in fact that more often than not, it was more likely that a massive break in the traffic occurs BEFORE the traffic red light came on – in other words whereby it is safe to cross without the signal.

IMHO this has actually led to the point where pedestrians/cyclists cross without even bothering to use the crossing light system. which yes i agree is wrong of the pedestrians/cyclists but it also makes the crossing system quite redundant (lending weight to the argument of just removing it) and also to me it is unsurprising in one way that cars drive straight through it because the red light doesn’t register so much when there’s no one actually on or near the crossing (not to mention maddening as a driver to have to stop at a crossing like that for nothing).

but – also as other rioters have noted already – the rate of knots that cars go around that corner is quite astounding (i know it’s 80km/hr on ginniderra, but not on mouat??) – and actually what i consider that is more dangerous than that, a qualitative assessment from me as a frequent user is that a good 40-50% of drivers do not indicate that they are turning up onto ginniderra. which means a crossing of some description IS required where pedestrians/cyclists are given right of way because a complete lack of indication by car drivers makes it impossible to sensibly judge a safe time for crossing.

i always intended on writing a letter to the RTA and requesting that the traffic light response time after someone pressing the crossing button be lowered so the red would come sooner which would mean the crossing would be used properly by all road users. guess i needn’t bother doing that now.

OpenYourMind said :

here’s an idea. Make cars stop at pedestrian crossing and make it the law that the car driver then has to get out and push their car across the crossing. How many people would obey that law? Now you see why the law for cyclists to push their bikes across crossings is silly. Sure make a speed limit for crossings so that cyclists don’t wildly enter the crossing at speed, but expecting a person to get off their bike goes against the nature of being on the bike in the first place. That video from Turner demonstrates this. In the Turner video you’ll note that these law breakers aren’t hard core cyclists, just normal people. And that’s why Pedal Power is appealing for this silly law to be changed.

Please you cannot be serious !!!!!!!!!!!

stormboy said :

Have you not realised that there is a lovely new shared path for your use on the OTHER side of Mouat St

I’m constantly amazed by the number of cyclists who insist on riding on the road when there’s a perfectly good shared path available.

They have a right to ride on the road, of course. They also have a right to hammer nails into their skull, but that doesn’t mean it’s a good idea.

Stormboy is spot on. Stop complaining and use the purpose built bikepath on the other side of Mouat St. By using it you don’t have to worry about traffic in and out of the Old Canberra Inn, Boyd and Brigalow Streets.

here’s an idea. Make cars stop at pedestrian crossing and make it the law that the car driver then has to get out and push their car across the crossing. How many people would obey that law? Now you see why the law for cyclists to push their bikes across crossings is silly. Sure make a speed limit for crossings so that cyclists don’t wildly enter the crossing at speed, but expecting a person to get off their bike goes against the nature of being on the bike in the first place. That video from Turner demonstrates this. In the Turner video you’ll note that these law breakers aren’t hard core cyclists, just normal people. And that’s why Pedal Power is appealing for this silly law to be changed.

I know this corner well, cars are easily doing 80+ when they hit that crossing..There was a fatality there in the mid 1980’s, a young girl was flattened not more than 50m up from the crossing. Driver never bothered to stop.
This crossing is matched in its deadly potential only by the one directly outside the John Gorton Building (Dept Finance) on King Edward Terrace and that diabolical one just near the War Memorial roundabout on Limestone. Both are disasters waiting to happen.

curlylocks said :

Are people actually getting off their bikes like they are suppose to to cross the zebra crossing?

Johnboy did a research of how many cyclists dismount, as per the signed, in Turner last year.

The quick answer is Buckley’s.

Are people actually getting off their bikes like they are suppose to to cross the zebra crossing?????? And never ever seen a cyclist actually use the signals that were there, but will make sure I stop for any pedestrian or cyclist crossing,.

Update: Yellow signs installed and traffic light poles removed since this morning. In a few seconds on the way home I saw 3 cars stop for pedestrians, and 3 that didn’t.

Sounds like an ideal location for a red light camera to have been installed.

stormboy said :

Have you not realised that there is a lovely new shared path for your use on the OTHER side of Mouat St and you can use the pedestrian lights to get you there from Nth Lyneham? It has got to be better to cross the entry to a carpark than where the new zebra crossing is.This then links up with a new set of pedestrian lights at the top of the Sullivans Creek path.

As a road user (which cyclists and pedestrians are) you have an obligation to take care. That means open your little bo-peeps and have a look before you cross any intersection let alone this one, which will apparently have killed someone within moments.

So all accidents can be avoided as long as we take care. Thanks for that.

nsn said :

It’s also strange that the traffic light poles have been left in place.

At lunch today, a bloke was mucking around with an angle grinder around this spot:
http://g.co/maps/xtaak

The poles are probably gone by now…

qbngeek said :

I have already submitted a request for the crossing situation along Townshend Street in Phillip to be reviewed after I have spent the last three months watching at least one person a week fly through the pedestrian crossings along there while people are crossing the road (including myself, although I yell and wave my arms if they don’t slow down). For the life of me, I can’t figure out why it is so fricking difficult to stop for pedestrians.

With all the side streets along Townshend St, combined with the likelihood that people are going to be scanning the sides of the road for some business or other, I strongly suspect it’s a case of “too many inputs”. I’d say that a set of flashing lights next to that crossing would be a good idea.

Have you not realised that there is a lovely new shared path for your use on the OTHER side of Mouat St and you can use the pedestrian lights to get you there from Nth Lyneham? It has got to be better to cross the entry to a carpark than where the new zebra crossing is.This then links up with a new set of pedestrian lights at the top of the Sullivans Creek path.

As a road user (which cyclists and pedestrians are) you have an obligation to take care. That means open your little bo-peeps and have a look before you cross any intersection let alone this one, which will apparently have killed someone within moments.

winter said :

I have also seen alot of people run a red light because most people just don’t expect those lights not to be green and during peak hour, I’m often focused on the lights and traffic ahead. I think they may have removed them so that people are prepared to stop at all times.

If a red light won’t make people stop I’m not sure how a pedestrian crossing will be any more successful at making people more “prepared to stop at all times” :\

The (now removed) lights used to be very slow. Sometimes it would take several minutes for them to change (in sync with the intersection), so cyclists would cross regardless if a gap came up.

All up, a bit of a dog’s breakfast. Perhaps things were better before they put the lights in?

winter said :

I have also seen alot of people run a red light because most people just don’t expect those lights not to be green and during peak hour, I’m often focused on the lights and traffic ahead. I think they may have removed them so that people are prepared to stop at all times. Now at least a pedestrian will wait for cars to stop before crossing, rather than seeing a green light and just walking out in front of traffic that might not be prepared to stop.

Hang on a second, WTF?

Why are pedestrians required to stop and wait at a pedestrian crossing. Why the flying frick are you lot not paying enough attention to see there is pedestrian crossing and stop? I am thinking some speed bumps may be required until drivers understand there is a crossing there. I much prefer you all whinging about slowing down for speed bumps rather than reading about someone being killed.

I have already submitted a request for the crossing situation along Townshend Street in Phillip to be reviewed after I have spent the last three months watching at least one person a week fly through the pedestrian crossings along there while people are crossing the road (including myself, although I yell and wave my arms if they don’t slow down). For the life of me, I can’t figure out why it is so fricking difficult to stop for pedestrians.

nsn said :

Couldn’t agree more. I noticed this yesterday and thought it’s only a matter of time before someone is run over there. I do not understand why the traffic lights would have been replaced by a pedestrian crossing. It’s also strange that the traffic light poles have been left in place.
Please let us know what response you get – who did you ask the question of?

Put through a Canberra Connect request under Roads/Footpaths.

Whoever made this decision should be made walk back and forth across the pedestrian crossing like a duck in a shooting gallery. It wouldn’t take more than 15 minutes in peak hour before someone takes home a large stuffed animal.

I have also seen alot of people run a red light because most people just don’t expect those lights not to be green and during peak hour, I’m often focused on the lights and traffic ahead. I think they may have removed them so that people are prepared to stop at all times. Now at least a pedestrian will wait for cars to stop before crossing, rather than seeing a green light and just walking out in front of traffic that might not be prepared to stop.

Couldn’t agree more. I noticed this yesterday and thought it’s only a matter of time before someone is run over there. I do not understand why the traffic lights would have been replaced by a pedestrian crossing. It’s also strange that the traffic light poles have been left in place.
Please let us know what response you get – who did you ask the question of?

I don’t drive that route very often, but know enough from what you describe to see that is genuinely a disaster waiting to happen.

A decision made by, presumably, the same experts who know what speed limit/signage is best on any given section of road.

I also ride a bike and it is a terrible intersection to cross, as the lights have gone no less than a dozen cars went through the crossing at 8am this morning before someone stopped and let me cross. This is a bad intersection and the lights should have remained. It will only be a matter of time before someone is injured. even worse critically. I have seen some dumb things in this town and this takes the cake.