No parks for Crace or Casey?

MG said :

http://www.actpla.act.gov.au/tools_resources/legislation_plans_registers/plans/territory_plan/current_technical_variations

No. 2010-31.

Looks like it’s true. Comments by 8 Nov.

Casey
? Increase the maximum number of dwellings permitted in the suburb from 1940
to 2600.
? Amend open space provisions to remove requirements for a standalone
playing field.

Crace
? Increase the maximum dwelling number for the suburb from 1200 to 1800
? Amend open space provisions to remove requirements for a neighbourhood
playing field.

Looks like the above post missed the points where the “neighbourhood playing field” would be replaced by “landscaped open space”. Quoting from from the link above, and just on Crace:

Crace concept plan amendments (items 23, 24 and 25)
The following changes are proposed to the Crace concept plan:
* Increase the maximum dwelling number for the suburb from 1200 to 1800, that is, an additional 600 dwellings. The additional dwellings are proposed to provide a range of affordable housing initiatives and housing typologies including multi unit and community title developments

* Amend open space provisions to remove requirements for a neighbourhood playing field. As with Casey, minor changes to open space provisions respond to advice from Sport and Recreation Services (Department of Territory and Municipal Services) that a ***landscaped open space be provided for local recreation use instead of a neighbourhood playing field***.

Maybe this leaves open further possibility for development potential & reducing the area of outdoor space in these suburbs?

well why did they originally plan for ovals if nooone wants them?

you can’t put an oval back in once you have a built up suburb.

sepi said :

If these are neighbouring suburbs it is a bit much to cancel both ovals.

And I still want to know what exactly will replace them.

how about something really innovative, like a kids playground with a little white picket fence around it, so that you can actually take more than one small child out to play and let them run around without worrying about the roads.

They’re not neighbouring suburbs. Crace is the bottom of Gungahlin (above Mitchell) and Casey is the top (next to Hall)

The main thing that bothers me is people that don’t even bother to look into things before slandering them. I mean both suburbs still have quite a bit of “green spaces.” Removing the ovals and putting a smaller park next to some apartments isn’t exactly going to turn the suburb into a slum.

The whole slum thing is ridiculous. Canberra doesn’t have any slums and isn’t likely to any time soon. It’s just people trying to make them feel better about where they live by picking on pretty much anything and everything different. Is it that surprising some people don’t want tiny houses on huge blocks and would prefer more manageable backyards? I guess not to some of you with such ridiculous tunnel vision.

SolarPowered said :

Sure, P1, but why? Why pick on any suburb at all? It is ridiculous. And you have to admit that the Gungahlin area cops it a fair bit on this site.

From my experience Gungahlin has a lot of interstate people. We have lived all over the place and Canberra just comes off as small minded when I read this shite. I love visiting this web site, but it just makes me sick to read all the geographic snobbery.

Mwah mwah mwaaaah!

If this makes you sick you need to either harden up or go play on news.com!

SolarPowered said :

Sure, P1, but why? Why pick on any suburb at all? It is ridiculous. And you have to admit that the Gungahlin area cops it a fair bit on this site.

Well, in my case, I have spent most of my time in Canberra in Belconnen and so am much more familiar with Gungahlin, and therefore more aware of its downsides (not comparing it to anywhere – every place has it’s downside). Personally I think that most of Gungahlin is nicer then most of the Tuggeranong Valley. For example in Tuggeranong I feel that the town centre is much more isolated from where people live, and not as compact and user friendly.

But I also think that the way new suburbs are being planned in this city has been getting worse. I am all for higher density housing, but think that it needs to be done in ways that don’t make suburbs worse to live in, and places like Crace… well, I guess we will know in 10-15 years.

The picking on is intended to be light hearted banter. Sledging each other about things which should not really be offensive is something of a tradition in this country. Sometime people go to far, or are intentionally mean about it. I’m not trying to be mean, and if I go too far I apologise.

We can still pick on Queanbeyan though yes?

arescarti42 said :

It is way further out, just look at a map. It is the only district in Canberra located further than 13km from the city.

Anyone who disputes the car dependency of Tuggeranong relative to the rest of Canberra needs to look at this public transportation map from the ABS. Tuggeranong has the lowest public transport usage of any area with the exception of Queanbeyan, which doesn’t have a subsidised bus system.
quote]

I think you are making pretty broad assumptions here that everyone works and commutes to the city from Tuggeranong. In fact I think you’ll find that a lot of people work locally in Tuggeranong and Woden areas and ‘shock’ Gunghalinites will even travel to Tuggeranong for work.

Regardless, this thread isn’t about which area of Canberra is better and IMHO the Tuggeranong and Gungahlin bashing should be discussed in a thread of its own.

If these are neighbouring suburbs it is a bit much to cancel both ovals.

And I still want to know what exactly will replace them.

how about something really innovative, like a kids playground with a little white picket fence around it, so that you can actually take more than one small child out to play and let them run around without worrying about the roads.

amarooresident3 said :

1. It’s Brendan Smyth so it is unlikely to be true.

2. If people are paying 450 grand plus for homes I’d suggest they are unlikely to be ‘slums’. Just normal everyday people trying to make a life for themselves and their families.

3. Finally, to all the Gungahlin haters – f*ck you.

http://www.actpla.act.gov.au/tools_resources/legislation_plans_registers/plans/territory_plan/current_technical_variations

No. 2010-31.

Looks like it’s true. Comments by 8 Nov.

Casey
? Increase the maximum number of dwellings permitted in the suburb from 1940
to 2600.
? Amend open space provisions to remove requirements for a standalone
playing field.

Crace
? Increase the maximum dwelling number for the suburb from 1200 to 1800
? Amend open space provisions to remove requirements for a neighbourhood
playing field.

Sure, P1, but why? Why pick on any suburb at all? It is ridiculous. And you have to admit that the Gungahlin area cops it a fair bit on this site.

From my experience Gungahlin has a lot of interstate people. We have lived all over the place and Canberra just comes off as small minded when I read this shite. I love visiting this web site, but it just makes me sick to read all the geographic snobbery.

I don’t see the problem.

We have obviously given up on Canberra being a egalitarian society with all suburbs having at least the same basic amenity. The new suburbs are terrible, everyone should know this by now.

I’m over it, it may be shit but Gungahlin does serve a purpose. It helps keeps the prices down in established suburbs with bigger blocks. Bigger blocks that you can extend on and still have a garden.

If it was not for all the idiots buying 400m2-600m2 blocks outside of town, I could not afford my 1100m2 close to a town centre.

SolarPowered said :

It gets up my nose when I read all this vitriol against Gungahlin. Ooh, you have clever names for the area – aren’t you witty.

Don’t worry, I can pick on Belcompton, Shelbyville (you know, the town just over the border where people marry their cousins), the Tuggie Thuggies, prius driving commies of the inner north, and any other sub area of Canberra you care to define. As cmdwedge said,

cmdwedge said :

Don’t take it so personally. I’ve lived in both the north and the south and both had their advantages.

It gets up my nose when I read all this vitriol against Gungahlin. Ooh, you have clever names for the area – aren’t you witty.

It is worse than Sydney East-West-North-South snobbery. By a long shot. As an outsider reading this shite, it makes all you Canberrans look like a bunch of petty school girls. Grow up you tossers.

amarooresident3 said :

cmdwedge said :

amarooresident3 said :

1. It’s Brendan Smyth so it is unlikely to be true.

2. If people are paying 450 grand plus for homes I’d suggest they are unlikely to be ‘slums’. Just normal everyday people trying to make a life for themselves and their families.

3. Finally, to all the Gungahlin haters – f*ck you.

1. Why?
2. In Canberra, $450K is not a lot. But loved the ‘little Aussie battler’ stuff.
3. Are you sad because you’re in the North? Understood. I lived in Ngunnawal…. once.

Nope I love where I live. I just don’t understand all the hate on Gungahlin. As for Brendan Smyth, my long observation of him is he gets it wrong more often than not, and if he isn’t wrong he tends to overcook whatever point he’s trying to make (the press release above is a classic example) so as to make it completely laughable.

I can’t argue on your point about Brendan Smyth, I feel that he’s very honest and upfront with people. However the point about Gungahlin is all just north/south banter. Don’t take it so personally. I’ve lived in both the north and the south and both had their advantages. No-one really HATES Gungahlin. It’s a postcode, not a state of mind.

Come friendly bombs and fall on Quangers.

cmdwedge said :

amarooresident3 said :

1. It’s Brendan Smyth so it is unlikely to be true.

2. If people are paying 450 grand plus for homes I’d suggest they are unlikely to be ‘slums’. Just normal everyday people trying to make a life for themselves and their families.

3. Finally, to all the Gungahlin haters – f*ck you.

1. Why?
2. In Canberra, $450K is not a lot. But loved the ‘little Aussie battler’ stuff.
3. Are you sad because you’re in the North? Understood. I lived in Ngunnawal…. once.

Nope I love where I live. I just don’t understand all the hate on Gungahlin. As for Brendan Smyth, my long observation of him is he gets it wrong more often than not, and if he isn’t wrong he tends to overcook whatever point he’s trying to make (the press release above is a classic example) so as to make it completely laughable.

arescarti42 said :

It is way further out, just look at a map. It is the only district in Canberra located further than 13km from the city.

Banks to the City 26.9km (not that anyone would actually take Yamba Drive)

Moncrieff to the City 15.8km (a suburb I have never heard of)

So the deep south really is a lot further from the centre of the city then the Gunghetto. Like twice as far. So a rail live that basically goes GD»GDE»parkway then flows south to, say Tharwa would be pretty awesome. It wouldn’t need to go into the city, or along Nothbourne to Dickson. Put a terminal at Glenloch, run express buses to the city from there, same from the stop at Hindmarsh into Woden.

But hey, infrastructure really isn’t what we spend money on these days. It’s all about the art.

amarooresident3 said :

1. It’s Brendan Smyth so it is unlikely to be true.

2. If people are paying 450 grand plus for homes I’d suggest they are unlikely to be ‘slums’. Just normal everyday people trying to make a life for themselves and their families.

3. Finally, to all the Gungahlin haters – f*ck you.

1. Why?
2. In Canberra, $450K is not a lot. But loved the ‘little Aussie battler’ stuff.
3. Are you sad because you’re in the North? Understood. I lived in Ngunnawal…. once.

Keijidosha said :

Think that you’re getting open space? Crace will change that.

/like

miz said :

Arescarti42, you said ‘Tuggeranong, it is completely car dependent and way further out from the city than Gungahlin.’

Car dependent? Way further out? WRONG! I commute 25 mins on the bus from Chisholm to Barton a day, which has to be better than going the GDE, as most Gunghettoites do. AND I have pets, a vegie patch and a lovely garden in my decent-sized yard. I don’t hear my neighbours’ arguments or toilets flushing either. Frankly, low density rocks and I wouldn’t have it any other way.

But shhh – I don’t wish to tell anyone how great it is, or everyone will want to move here! PS I never need to go into to Civic, so, ‘care factor’ re proximity anyway.

It appears that a lot of northsiders have never actually been to Tuggers and have no idea.

I live in Gungahlin & frankly I wouldn’t have it any other way.
I have a pet, vegie pot plants on my balcony, & no grass/weeds to maintain. My neighbours never argue, and I have nice views into their bathroom window 😉

Wow – the ACT govt had it in for gardeners, and now they are against anyone who wants to walk their dog, teach kids to ride a bike or fly kites etc.

So – did Jon give up any info on what the ‘landscaped green space’ is actually going. Becuase for mine usually ‘landscaped’ is code for ‘look but don’t walk on it’ acres of tanbark or gravel and some rows of ugly grass-like plants.

On Tuggers – nice wide roads, big blocks, access to the river, fantastic views. A handful of km further out than the rest of canberra, but better roads in and less congested traffic. The main problem is people from northside won’t go there.

Think that you’re getting open space? Crace will change that.

miz said :

Arescarti42, you said ‘Tuggeranong, it is completely car dependent and way further out from the city than Gungahlin.’

Car dependent? Way further out? WRONG! I commute 25 mins on the bus from Chisholm to Barton a day, which has to be better than going the GDE, as most Gunghettoites do.no idea.

It is way further out, just look at a map. It is the only district in Canberra located further than 13km from the city.

Anyone who disputes the car dependency of Tuggeranong relative to the rest of Canberra needs to look at this public transportation map from the ABS. Tuggeranong has the lowest public transport usage of any area with the exception of Queanbeyan, which doesn’t have a subsidised bus system.

The express bus might get you to work in 25 minutes, but any other bus is going to take forever to cover the swath of suburbia and travel the massive distances to anywhere worth going.

johnboy said :

It’s a worry if you have to be in an organised sports team to qualify as an oval user.

and that just being a dog walker etc isn’t good enough for a patch of grass to walk on…

So, hypothetically, on a sunny Saturday afternoon I want to take the kids down the oval to fly a kite, kick a footy, or do some other activity which takes more room then my back yard (let alone the tiny backyards of new suburbs). The multi oval locations will all will all be covered in under twelve’s football, hockey of something of the like will they not? I assume I’ll be able to get them to give up half the oval so I can fly my kite?

I heard John Stanhope on the radio this morning about this. People who have bought in Crace 1, 2 and 3 are not affected in any way he says (I don’t know enough about the issue to comment).

Crace 4 – which has not yet been sold, is the only part that these changes affect. Basically, he talked about the number of single ovals around the place that don’t get used (eg school ovals and the like) and that its not worth having a single one cos it won’t be used by serious sports clubs and will end up just being a blank bit of land for dog walkers etc.

Luther_bendros said “If you can’t read a planning map don’t buy a house.”

The point is that Andrew Barr has changed the plans after people bought the land.

1. It’s Brendan Smyth so it is unlikely to be true.

2. If people are paying 450 grand plus for homes I’d suggest they are unlikely to be ‘slums’. Just normal everyday people trying to make a life for themselves and their families.

3. Finally, to all the Gungahlin haters – f*ck you.

Anyway what are you all complaining about, Gungahlin is the first place to receive the NBN in Canberra, whilst us poor sods living on 1000 sqm plus blocks of land backing a reserve and with parks at the end of the street and ovals on the next corner have to deal with ADSL connections.
What an outrage.

Arescarti42, you said ‘Tuggeranong, it is completely car dependent and way further out from the city than Gungahlin.’

Car dependent? Way further out? WRONG! I commute 25 mins on the bus from Chisholm to Barton a day, which has to be better than going the GDE, as most Gunghettoites do. AND I have pets, a vegie patch and a lovely garden in my decent-sized yard. I don’t hear my neighbours’ arguments or toilets flushing either. Frankly, low density rocks and I wouldn’t have it any other way.

But shhh – I don’t wish to tell anyone how great it is, or everyone will want to move here! PS I never need to go into to Civic, so, ‘care factor’ re proximity anyway.

It appears that a lot of northsiders have never actually been to Tuggers and have no idea.

gospeedygo said :

Captain RAAF said :

I live in Ngunnawal, I can see a shit load of green from my window and it goes for quite a way.

Of course you can, that’s what blinkers are for! I lived in Ngunnawal also mate and had fine views, access to nice parks etc but the natives that lived on the border were growing restless and the signs of impending doom appeared more frequently, so I packed up the wagon and got the hell out of Dodge!

One thing i’ll hand to the filth, they don’t shit in their own nest, so the slum dwellers of Crace, Casey, Forde, and Gungers will find their fun somewhere nearby so Ngungers, Amaroo and Nicholls watch out!

And before someone gets on here and says “If you look at the crime rates for such and such….and every suburb has it’s filth etc etc..” remember, that’s the situation now, give it 5 years it will be a totally different story.

If true, this is a real shame. I’m not a fan of Crace (or indeed Gungahlin), but this was an opportunity to try something new, and although not my cup of tea it could have been really nice for a lot of people. This sort of behaviour by government really stuffs things up, though.

More housing blocks = more stamp duty revenue. It’s not just the developers making a motza from this.

Captain RAAF said :

Gungahlin region is basically a refugee camp built on the sly. We’ll all be reading about that area, for all the wrong reasons, for decades to come.

+1

Chop71 said :

WOW, this is a shocker. When you only have on average 400m blocks and then they take away your park or oval to build more houses ….grr

I’m happy to be corrected, but from what I’ve read, it sounds like the oval is being replaced with “landscaped open space for local recreation”, not additional houses. I suspect they might be making blocks smaller to fit in the additional homes, or increasing the townhouse to detached house ratio.

I’d like to know why people think Gungahlin will be a future slum. I’d be putting bets on Tuggeranong, it is completely car dependent and way further out from the city than Gungahlin.

Chop71 said :

Do you guys reckon they will try too move the ACT border North or West for future development or keep building south of Tuggies? Are there any plans for the next satelite city? (I hope not under the airport)

maybe we might even get light rail before they invent a teleporter

The next satellite city will be Molonglo, north of Weston and south of Belconnen. Between Molonglo and Gungahlin, there is probably capacity for another 20 or 30 years.

After that, Kowen Forest in the east is earmarked for 8000-28000 homes (i.e. 20,000-80,000 people).

As far as a rail system in the short to medium term, as long as Stanhope is in government, I don’t think there’s a chance.

Do you guys reckon they will try too move the ACT border North or West for future development or keep building south of Tuggies? Are there any plans for the next satelite city? (I hope not under the airport)

maybe we might even get light rail before they invent a teleporter

WOW, this is a shocker. When you only have on average 400m blocks and then they take away your park or oval to build more houses ….grr

I guess the saying “they don’t build em like they used too” stands true for block sizes and established houses too.

This is terrible! I thought the whole point of high density / sustainable suburbs was to have plenty of community space for exercise and team sports etc, as people will not have backyards.

What happened to ‘walkability’ John? Looks like Gungahlinites will all be driving to Dickson oval….

Captain RAAF said :

Anyone who bought in Crace or Casey with the expectation of having large parks and other green areas to ‘play’ in must have signed on the bottom line without ever taking a look at the surrounding neighborhoods.

Gungahlin region is basically a refugee camp built on the sly. We’ll all be reading about that area, for all the wrong reasons, for decades to come.

Glad I got out when I did.

I live in Ngunnawal, I can see a shit load of green from my window and it goes for quite a way.

they did the same in Forde, 700 blocks became 1200, the big question is if a large amount of money is being exchanged to increase the density from the original purchase of the land or is this a normal way for the developers to make 3 times more and make the desperate homebuyers live in slums

Captain RAAF said :

Gungahlin region is basically a refugee camp built on the sly. We’ll all be reading about that area, for all the wrong reasons, for decades to come. Glad I got out when I did.

+1

I’m waiting for the government to install a tall electric fence around that area.

Captain RAAF, any chance on having the place re-zoned as a bomb testing range for our wonderful Air Force? 🙂

I’ll have to admit complete ignorance on this – what is “a crypto-homophopic dig”? Is there something about the gay community and backyards?

Captain RAAF said :

Anyone who bought in Crace or Casey with the expectation of having large parks and other green areas to ‘play’ in must have signed on the bottom line without ever taking a look at the surrounding neighborhoods.

+1

It was fairly obvious what Crace and Casey we to become, and Forde to follow. If you want a backyard and room to move, take your $450k+ and move somewhere that’s not Gungahlin. If you can’t read a planning map don’t buy a house.

I see the renters are persisting in their Gungahlin commentary

Gunghalin – Canberra’s own Sadr City.

I wonder if Andy will have a little cry about this round of criticism on Facebook too?

Anyone who bought in Crace or Casey with the expectation of having large parks and other green areas to ‘play’ in must have signed on the bottom line without ever taking a look at the surrounding neighborhoods.

Gungahlin region is basically a refugee camp built on the sly. We’ll all be reading about that area, for all the wrong reasons, for decades to come.

Glad I got out when I did.

If I had bought in Crace or Casey I’d be pretty unhappy with Andrew Barr right now. What has this government got against Gungahlin?

More room for McMansions and faux-Tuscan villas. What’s not to like?