Silly main road design

Bluenomi said :

While I’d love to look at your maps to see what you are talking about I’m not going to sign up for a website just to do it.

+1

What an idiotic concept.

All this realignment does is get the motorist used to the slow traffic on Cotter Road, where cyclists occupy the lanes doing only 25km/h and bank up traffic due to the non-existence of overtaking lanes.
Also, the government is expecting everyone in Molonglo to ride to work or catch buses so a major free-flowing arterial road is not required. This applies to any new suburbs extended out from the edge of Canberra in the future. Simple.

Sgt.Bungers said :

It’s amazing how many transport discussions on the RA descend into “everything is all cyclists fault”.

High angle corners have been deemed by transportation engineers all around the world as being a far safer style of corner in urban areas.

Information provided in the links below recommend high angle corners for pedestrian safety, not just cyclist safety.

Providing free left turns is still inherently car friendly design, when you take into account the desire lines for traffic as opposed to pedestrians and cyclists ( Cyclist using shared paths ). There is really no need to have slip lanes and it doesn’t increase congestion.It is all about appropriate signal phasing that keeps traffic moving.

The desire can be the same for Pedestrians and cyclist rather than an obstacle course like the new arrangements at Melrose/Hindmarsh intersection in Woden
ACT roads has learned nothing in creating cities for people! You would have thought that as they are looking at redesigning Northbourne Ave with separated cycle infrastructure, they would be doing it here in Molonglo.
This type of intersection is designed for high level motor vehicle use and not ‘transport use’.

http://youtu.be/FlApbxLz6pA
http://youtu.be/6aOrVDl_7z0

chewy14 said :

The terrain is flat? What planet are you living on?

Well it ain’t exactly the Himalayas. Or even Black Mt, or Capital Hill

The area we’re talking about (Cotter rd bw Streeton Drive and Eucumbene) is gently undulating – unless maybe you’re an ant. If engineers can build the GDE through Black Mt, or dig a massive hole in contaminated ground to forge the North Weston Ponds, they should be able to build a road through the undulating flatlands of northern Weston Creek without too much difficulty or expense, without diverting the road 100m south to circumvent a molehill.

JC said :

The newer style doesn’t slow them the fuck down, that’s the issue. The real idiots still go like a bull at a gate and then need to turn into the outside lane, creating double trouble. So everyone else that can do the right thing gets punished. And before anyone goes on the attack it isn’t about saving a few seconds either.

So what you’re saying is that you believe intersections are safer when the average driver has less of a cue to slow down, thus resulting in less time to negotiate the corner, and resulting in hastier decisions? That it’s safer for motorists to drive at higher speed through low angle slip lanes, even when Australian Road Rule 72.4.b requires motorists to give way to pedestrians on a slip lane, even if a pedestrian crossing doesn’t exist… Because otherwise, idiots are going to go through at high speed and make things dangerous?

Not sure I’m following your train of thought!

I say keep the high angle corners, and crack down hard on idiots who drive with reckless disregard for the safety of anyone else.

JC said :

The older style turns worked until the roads were buggerised by adding bike lanes, even though in the case of Belconnen Way there is a perfectly good bike lane right alongside.

It’s amazing how many transport discussions on the RA descend into “everything is all cyclists fault”.

High angle corners have been deemed by transportation engineers all around the world as being a far safer style of corner in urban areas.

Information provided in the links below recommend high angle corners for pedestrian safety, not just cyclist safety.

http://www.urbanstreet.info/3rd_symp_proceedings/Safety%20Effect%20of%20the%20Skew%20Angle%20in%20Right%20Turn%20Maneuvers.pdf

http://www.ite.org/css/online/img/Figure10-11-edit.jpg

http://www.ite.org/css/online/DWUT10.html

JC,
That’s the point. The goal is to create a critical population mass around these hubs in the future so you don’t have to go through them. You’ll be stopping there and hopping on a bus/tram/train to get where you’re going.

funky said :

Is there something wrong with you? From what you have seen they need to slow the f#ck down when making that turn and then there is no problem. You and your mates, who had no problem seenig cars and BIKES (motor), are the ones who generated the stats used in the studies that detected the problem and came up with the safer alternative.

The newer style doesn’t slow them the fuck down, that’s the issue. The real idiots still go like a bull at a gate and then need to turn into the outside lane, creating double trouble. So everyone else that can do the right thing gets punished. And before anyone goes on the attack it isn’t about saving a few seconds either.

The older style turns worked until the roads were buggerised by adding bike lanes, even though in the case of Belconnen Way there is a perfectly good bike lane right alongside.

chewy14 said :

Because by backing them onto the road you would be splitting the development and this would ruin the functionality and I think it would look extremely ugly. They’re meant to be a community and public transport hubs, so having the shops and residences facing the the main road links them much better. They’re not designed to allow you to drive your car through as fast as possible.

They are main roads which should be designed to get people from A to B without too many obsticals. That’s the problem they CREATE issues like this then need to slow people down when if designed properly there should be no need. As for the design of the developments why do they need to be ugle if designed backwards. There are plenty of examples in suburbs such as Harrison and Franklin where the houses and pedestrian traffic fronts the road and vehicles are on a service road behind.

Now in this case of this new road through Molonglo and Flemmington road you could have the main road as the transport corridor with cars and public transport freely moving without obstacles, have the high density housing on the side with the local traffic behind, away and safe.

As it stands there is a gord awful mix of what should be a main arterial road, with fast and slow traffic, it’s a receipt for trouble.

And no I am not in a hurry to get from A to B, but don’t see the point of poorly designing new roads that create needless issues.

Quote”
I have no trouble seeing cars and bikes coming on the older turns and I in fact even give way to them. From what I’ve seen of the tighter turns is it is encouraging many to turn left into the right hand lane rather than the left, so they have two lanes of traffic to watch for and double the chance of being hit. The worst such example being Coulter left onto Belconnen way (city bound) end Quote”

Is there something wrong with you? From what you have seen they need to slow the f#ck down when making that turn and then there is no problem. You and your mates, who had no problem seenig cars and BIKES (motor), are the ones who generated the stats used in the studies that detected the problem and came up with the safer alternative.

JC said :

chewy14 said :

As far as I can see the government is trying to create transport hubs along these feeder roads which have high density housing built along them to enable higher use of public transport.
As well as this, a lot of these developments are going to be mixed use with commercial shops/restaurants etc on the bottom floor/s with residential above, so the service roads enable people to find and use these businesses.
The road in Molonglo is going to be John Gorton Drive which I think is going to be built similar to Flemington road.

You can still do that without having these service roads off and parallel to the main road. Just back the development onto the main road and provide the service road on the other side with access off the minor road. I do wonder as some elluded to before if it is a way of providing a buffer without actually providing one. As without these service roads they would probably need some parkland/verge, by having the service road they don’t as the service road provides the buffer.

Because by backing them onto the road you would be splitting the development and this would ruin the functionality and I think it would look extremely ugly. They’re meant to be a community and public transport hubs, so having the shops and residences facing the the main road links them much better. They’re not designed to allow you to drive your car through as fast as possible.

In theory the road should have been designed by engineers.

Communism works in theory.

chewy14 said :

As far as I can see the government is trying to create transport hubs along these feeder roads which have high density housing built along them to enable higher use of public transport.
As well as this, a lot of these developments are going to be mixed use with commercial shops/restaurants etc on the bottom floor/s with residential above, so the service roads enable people to find and use these businesses.
The road in Molonglo is going to be John Gorton Drive which I think is going to be built similar to Flemington road.

You can still do that without having these service roads off and parallel to the main road. Just back the development onto the main road and provide the service road on the other side with access off the minor road. I do wonder as some elluded to before if it is a way of providing a buffer without actually providing one. As without these service roads they would probably need some parkland/verge, by having the service road they don’t as the service road provides the buffer.

funky said :

The ‘hard’ left turns as you call them feature a 70deg approach angle to make it easier to see traffic on the through road. You know, the ones you have to give way to. The fact that it delays you from shooting out across 2 or 3 lanes into the path of others is just another way the Gov wanys to annoy you by slowing your journey by few seconds. I don’t think that they are used in conjunction with acceleration lanes but I can’t be arsed having a look.

The diversion of Cotter Rd is certainly odd but may have a bit to do with future development (perhaps a land grab as someone said above).

I have no trouble seeing cars and bikes coming on the older turns and I in fact even give way to them. From what I’ve seen of the tighter turns is it is encouraging many to turn left into the right hand lane rather than the left, so they have two lanes of traffic to watch for and double the chance of being hit. The worst such example being Coulter left onto Belconnen way (city bound)

ABC129 said :

Hardly a new idea:
Macgregor: Southern Cross Drv http://maps.google.com.au/?ll=-35.218917,149.012842&spn=0.003304,0.004849&t=h&z=18

Hackett: Antill st http://maps.google.com.au/?ll=-35.242973,149.1615&spn=0.003303,0.004849&t=h&z=18

Rivett: Hindmarsh Drive http://maps.google.com.au/?ll=-35.341866,149.042115&spn=0.006599,0.009699&t=h&z=17

Narrabundah: Sturt Ave http://maps.google.com.au/?ll=-35.328786,149.148266&spn=0.0033,0.004849&t=h&z=18

True, you also forgot Kingsford Smith Drive over Mt Rogers. What is different is the fact that these are major THROUGH roads. All the roads above where residential area’s start are towards the end at which point they are no longer through roads.

This new road through Wright and Coombs will presumably continue on towards Belconnen so are slightly different, same too with the two in Gungahlin I’ve mentioned as they are major through roads.

The ‘hard’ left turns as you call them feature a 70deg approach angle to make it easier to see traffic on the through road. You know, the ones you have to give way to. The fact that it delays you from shooting out across 2 or 3 lanes into the path of others is just another way the Gov wanys to annoy you by slowing your journey by few seconds. I don’t think that they are used in conjunction with acceleration lanes but I can’t be arsed having a look.

The diversion of Cotter Rd is certainly odd but may have a bit to do with future development (perhaps a land grab as someone said above).

I agree that some of the ACT’s main road designs are questionable. Particularly the ones that continually split into two lanes, then merge into one, split back to two, etc. Gaah. I see merge points and form one lane points as conflict areas with potential for collision. Potential collision areas should be minimized… not a common occurrence.

The high angle left turns are a result of research that indicated that gentle left turns (right turns in LHD countries) were not particularly safe for a number of reasons. Including, the lower angle corner encouraged higher speed. Higher speed means that motorists don’t have time to double check, which can lead to an increase in all sorts collisions, but particularly collisions with vulnerable road users such as motorcyclists and cyclists who are impossible to see with a fleeting glance.

Higher speed as motorists pass through a slip lane turning left, is of course also a hazard for pedestrians attempting to cross the intersection.

An Australian Road Rule that is not well known is ARR 72.4.b, which states that motorists entering a slip lane must give way to pedestrians who may be on the slip lane. This applies even if no pedestrian crossing is painted across the slip lane, though pedestrian crossings tend to be painted on slip lanes to minimize confusion.

p1 said :

…from most of Canberra to the east and are ….

Ummm… to the west, of course.

dvaey said :

How exactly is turning onto an 80km/hr road from a slip-lane at a ‘slower speed’ a safe situation? The hard left turn causes a number of problems, firstly it means you can no longer use your mirrors to check oncoming traffic, or easily headcheck as the angle of the sliplane puts oncoming traffic into your blindspot. Another side effect of sharper turns on slip-lanes means that where a slip-lane used to be able more than half a dozen cars, they can now fit 2 or 3. It also means where you previously had 100m+ to match the speed of other traffic before merging, you now have about 20m.

Which as a car driver you sould remember when you were taught to drive you were taught to head check if you changed lanes/merged with the traffic? Do you regularly cut other cars & morotcyclists off when changing lanes just using your mirrors? Your mirrors are really designed for keeping an eye on the traffic as you are moving along.

I think you would find that the sharper left turn lanes are traffic calming devices so the traffic turning onto a main road has to slow down & give way instead of just spearing out into the fray. On such intersection I know of that has been changed for the better in this way is Marconi Cr in Kambah where you runt left south onto Drakefor Drive. People used to just fly out with total disregard to the traffic moving south.

A move for the better I think.

Canberra as a whole has rather limited roads leading out into the hinterland. To the west we really only have three options (Uriarra Rd, Cotter Rd, and Point Hut Rd), which then translates into only one truly Westerly exit from the ACT over the Brindies at Piccadilli Circus. While it might not really be the highest traffic road, they have taken the the only route from most of Canberra to the east and are making it weave through new suburbs?

dvaey said :

How exactly is turning onto an 80km/hr road from a slip-lane at a ‘slower speed’ a safe situation? The hard left turn causes a number of problems, firstly it means you can no longer use your mirrors to check oncoming traffic, or easily headcheck as the angle of the sliplane puts oncoming traffic into your blindspot. Another side effect of sharper turns on slip-lanes means that where a slip-lane used to be able more than half a dozen cars, they can now fit 2 or 3. It also means where you previously had 100m+ to match the speed of other traffic before merging, you now have about 20m.

Perhaps it’s punishment for so many peoples’ inability to use slip lanes?

I think so far chewy14’s response has made the most sense, especially the part about access to public transport. Though I have to agree that that kind of planning arrangement will cause the troubles outlined by OP. I suppose in 5-10 years if the whole thing gets redeveloped, we’ll know that the experiment failed. I guess time will tell.

Bluenomi said :

While I’d love to look at your maps to see what you are talking about I’m not going to sign up for a website just to do it.

You can simply click the checkbox and click the button for ‘personal use’, no signup required. One advantage of nearmap is that it is updated every few months, so you can alternate between previous images, great for watching developments such as these.

Deckard said :

Unfortunately for dvaey it doesn’t fit into his anti cycling agenda but i think the hard lefts are there to make people turning into a road do it at a slower speed.

How exactly is turning onto an 80km/hr road from a slip-lane at a ‘slower speed’ a safe situation? The hard left turn causes a number of problems, firstly it means you can no longer use your mirrors to check oncoming traffic, or easily headcheck as the angle of the sliplane puts oncoming traffic into your blindspot. Another side effect of sharper turns on slip-lanes means that where a slip-lane used to be able more than half a dozen cars, they can now fit 2 or 3. It also means where you previously had 100m+ to match the speed of other traffic before merging, you now have about 20m.

jayskette said :

forget about the traffic lights – why isn’t Cotter road at least two lanes each way by now? Nobody anticipates the future traffic!

or William Hovell Drive (Kangaroo Alley – as I like to call it)

JC 7 said: “I assume at some point the road from Adelaide Ave to the new turn off will be renamed something else otherwise it will be odd having a road change name with a left hand turn.”

You obviously have never driven to Cann River from Canberra. At Cooma you turn left off the Monaro Hwy onto the Monaro Hwy and then after you stop for the best in the region at Nimmitabel you turn right off the Monaro Hwy onto the Monaro Hwy.

Hardly a new idea:
Macgregor: Southern Cross Drv http://maps.google.com.au/?ll=-35.218917,149.012842&spn=0.003304,0.004849&t=h&z=18

Hackett: Antill st http://maps.google.com.au/?ll=-35.242973,149.1615&spn=0.003303,0.004849&t=h&z=18

Rivett: Hindmarsh Drive http://maps.google.com.au/?ll=-35.341866,149.042115&spn=0.006599,0.009699&t=h&z=17

Narrabundah: Sturt Ave http://maps.google.com.au/?ll=-35.328786,149.148266&spn=0.0033,0.004849&t=h&z=18

yellowsnow said :

Whatt annoys me more about the new cotter rd / john gorton drive alignment is that RoadACT insisted on pushing the road 100m further south than the original alignment, cutting in into the already tiny buffer zone bw weston creek and molonglo

Talk about a land grab! I’m still angry about this incursion into weston creek territory – like molonglo doesn’t already have enough land to sell off!!

At the time they said it was simply not feasible from an engineering perspective to build it any other way, but clearly this wasn’t true as the terrain is flat and hardly insurmountable (the project was brought to you by the same people to dig a lake out of asbestos, a much bigger and more expensive task)

The terrain is flat? What planet are you living on?

Bluenomi said :

While I’d love to look at your maps to see what you are talking about I’m not going to sign up for a website just to do it.

Plus I’m not sure why you are bothered about minor roads coming off major roads. What’s the point of a major road if it doesn’t connect to anything?

You just have to check an ‘I agree’ checkbox, then click ‘take me to the map’ at the bottom. Hardly signing up…

Whatt annoys me more about the new cotter rd / john gorton drive alignment is that RoadACT insisted on pushing the road 100m further south than the original alignment, cutting in into the already tiny buffer zone bw weston creek and molonglo

Talk about a land grab! I’m still angry about this incursion into weston creek territory – like molonglo doesn’t already have enough land to sell off!!

At the time they said it was simply not feasible from an engineering perspective to build it any other way, but clearly this wasn’t true as the terrain is flat and hardly insurmountable (the project was brought to you by the same people to dig a lake out of asbestos, a much bigger and more expensive task)

As far as I can see the government is trying to create transport hubs along these feeder roads which have high density housing built along them to enable higher use of public transport.
As well as this, a lot of these developments are going to be mixed use with commercial shops/restaurants etc on the bottom floor/s with residential above, so the service roads enable people to find and use these businesses.
The road in Molonglo is going to be John Gorton Drive which I think is going to be built similar to Flemington road.

Bluenomi said :

While I’d love to look at your maps to see what you are talking about I’m not going to sign up for a website just to do it.

Plus I’m not sure why you are bothered about minor roads coming off major roads. What’s the point of a major road if it doesn’t connect to anything?

Up to you if you don’t want to join near maps, it is actually quite an interesting site and a shite load better (updated very regularly) for Australia than Google maps and free.

Anyway what I am talking about is not minor roads coming off a major road of course that is quite normal, what I was talking about are side roads, read service roads, these are silly roads that run parallel to the main road to service housing directly on the side of the main road. They are one way streets that veer off and join the main road at regular intervals, whereas the minor roads come off at cross or T intersections or roundabouts.

Anyway my main point being why have housing fronting what is going to be a major through road. Why not have the housing in the exact same place but backing the main road with the service road being on the other side, like they did it in the past? If they want the housing to front the main road why not build them “backwards”, like they have done elsewhere and keep the part fronting the main road as a pedestrian area and the back where the road is. It will be a hell of a lot safer.

Here is a link to what I am talking about on googlemaps, in this case Flemmington Road.

http://maps.google.com.au/maps?q=Flemington+Road,+Harrison,+Australian+Capital+Territory&hl=en&ll=-35.196309,149.151485&spn=0.007067,0.016469&sll=-25.335448,135.745076&sspn=61.510781,134.912109&oq=flemmington+road&hnear=Flemington+Rd,+Harrison+Australian+Capital+Territory&t=h&z=17

And Gundaroo Road:

http://maps.google.com.au/maps?q=Flemington+Road,+Harrison,+Australian+Capital+Territory&hl=en&ll=-35.181043,149.139318&spn=0.007068,0.016469&sll=-25.335448,135.745076&sspn=61.510781,134.912109&oq=flemmington+road&hnear=Flemington+Rd,+Harrison+Australian+Capital+Territory&t=h&z=17

forget about the traffic lights – why isn’t Cotter road at least two lanes each way by now? Nobody anticipates the future traffic!

Unfortunately for dvaey it doesn’t fit into his anti cycling agenda but i think the hard lefts are there to make people turning into a road do it at a slower speed. In fact I think many of the cycle lanes in this city are there to make drivers slow down rather than help cyclists out. You know the ones that appear for 50m then disappear into thin bitumen.

Maybe pointless and annoying but I don’t think you can blame the cyclists for it.

While I’d love to look at your maps to see what you are talking about I’m not going to sign up for a website just to do it.

Plus I’m not sure why you are bothered about minor roads coming off major roads. What’s the point of a major road if it doesn’t connect to anything?

That’s not right. That’s not even wrong.

What seems silly to me is that people are apparently happy to live 20m from a main road with no noise or visual barrier(s) between it and the front of their house.

re the hard left turns – I think it’s because of cycle lanes. Everywhere they install a new cycle lane they re-align the left turn slip lanes. Pointless and annoying if you ask me.

OP: Oh one last thing why are all left turns at lights now being built with such hard lefts, whereas in the past they were a lot gentler?

In Kambah there are a number of instances of this. It is normally caused by having to make room for the on-road bike lanes. Pity it makes it significantly more unsafe for motorists, but at least the handful of cyclists who ride that on-road cycleway, now have one less thing to complain about.