Software Freedom Day in Canberra

I guess that’s because I’m a supid n00b, huh?

fnaah,
Thankyou. Now, if you go back and read what I wrote, you might find you addressed very little.

the only things I have issues with are comments re “get microsoft products for free”. Open source is free. Commercial costs money. simple.

If you try to make commercial software free through illegal acts, that is not an act of freedom, it is an act of blatant stupidity.

want free = opensource

want commercial = pay for it.

I personally pay for all software I use that is not offered for free, legitimately. I would prefer to do this, in case I or my wife ever get audited in the course of our daily business dealings. I can claim against my tax for business use, so that may actually mean that it is free….

Having just re-read Aurelius’ other “contributions” to this thread, I have a few more things to say.

Before I start, disclosure: I use XP and various flavours of Linux both at work and at home.

Firstly, I find it amusing that one of your first posts in this thread accurately described the ideological position you were going to take on this matter, before you actually took it. Very clever.

For most people, switching to Linux is neither a) or b). You have to learn a bunch of new stuff to do the same old stuff. And by switching, you lose access to tons of applications, thereby enabling you to do less. Oh, but it does enable you to spend many of your weekends now trying to learn to program so that you can fix bugs and contribute code so that programs will let you do what you could already do before you started going down this merry path.

These statements are simply untrue. You don’t have to learn “new stuff” to do the same things. Getting your network card working (as an example) is still a matter of assigning appropriate IP settings. There may be a different method, but nobody is forcing you to learn Banyan Vines instead of TCPIP.

You may lose access to proprietary formats, but not “applications”. You can create a document or a spreadsheet or a presentation without MS Office. You can edit an image without Photoshop. You can play an mp3 without Winamp. Hell, even most games run under Wine these days.

You don’t need to “learn to program” to use open source software. You may need to learn what the software actually does, or even how it does it, but you don’t have to write it. If you consider modifying a configuration file as “programming”, you’ve got a bit of a gap in your skills and knowledge matrix.

They’ve got products the customer doesn’t have to pay for and they STILL can’t get market penetration. Therefore, the logical conclusion is they have failed because their products are rubbish.

Your logic is flawed. As someone stated above, open source applications and operating systems dominate the market in the web server arena:

http://news.netcraft.com/archives/2006/06/04/june_2006_web_server_survey.html

A program or product does not need to be useful to everyone to be successful or worth the effort of producing. There are many different distributions of Linux around because they are all tailored towards particular use, functionality or ideology. Windows tries to be the jack-of-all-trades, which it does pretty well, but I think you know what else that implies.

You are also making an assumption that the driving force behind open source software is profit. Ever heard of altruism? If someone writes an application for a specific purpose, what’s wrong with letting others benefit from that without trying to leech money out of them? Protecting profit stifles the growth of knowledge and impedes progress. Sharing knowledge sparks creativity, facilitates education and encourages discovery.

Why should any user switch? This thread is 65 posts long, and noone ever says ‘if you switch, you’ll be able to do 1, 2 and 3 which you couldn’t do before’
The average punter is not going to change the way they do things unless they see benefit. The biggest error the open source zealots have in their marketing is forgetting that.

The biggest error that MS script kiddie zealots make is failing to see the benefits that are pointed out to them, repeatedly, or even acknowledge their existence.

1. You don’t have to pay for software. Moreover, you won’t be forced to buy other software that you shouldn’t need to make the first software than you shouldn’t have paid for work as well as the software you could have got for free, if only you’d bothered to RTFM.

2. You won’t be forced to buy software just so you can collaborate with others who have fallen into the clever marketing trap of paying for things they don’t need.

3. You might find that a modern OS doesn’t need to gobble up 1Gb of RAM just to check your email or surf the web.

4. You might find your “old dead” pentium 3’s and other castoffs actually have plenty of use – file storage, backup, mail server, web server, secure and private proxy/gateway, torrent seedbox, HTPC, firewall, home security and automation, all sorts of cool stuff.

5. You might actually learn something about how your computer works, so that you won’t be mistakenly be lead to believe that reinstalling an OS every six months is “just normal”, or that you need to buy a new computer every twelve months because “they just slow down the more you use them”, or that adding bloated antivirus/antispyware software is the right way to stop spam and viruses.

…

I’m going to stop now. I’ve had my zealot-like anti-zealot whine for the month.

peter@home said :

how long till the commercial manufacturers resort to the old dongle system? then we are all well and truly stuffed.

We’ll only be stuffed in that situation if we haven’t worked out an alternative to proprietary software by then …. 😉

L

Overheard said :

I’ll be OOT for next week’s Open Source stuff, but Loq, if there’s anywhere else I can tap into this stuff outside of the organised gigs, I’m all ears.

Overheard, sorry for taking a while to get back to you, I’ve been AFK for a few days. Probably the best way to get involved is to sign up to the CLUG mailing list, which you can do here: http://clug.org.au. You don’t have to attend the meetings unless you want to, the list itself is a very good resource.

Otherwise, check out the other links in the OP. If there’s something specific that you want information on, and Google isn’t helping, drop me a line directly (loquacities at gmail dot com) and I’ll see if I can’t steer you in the right direction.

L

fnaah said :

Aurelius wrote:

PeterH, If you need advice on how the majority of Windows users are doing so without having paid for the products, you’re less techno-savvy than I previously believed.

If you believe the majority of Windows users didn’t pay for the software, you’re a fool, either because you fail to understand the maning of “majority”, or you fail to realise how Microsoft actually makes money by selling operating systems.

A very large majority of windows-based home computers are bought either at big-name retailers like Harvey Norman, Domayne, Dick Smith, or online from Dell/IBM/HP.

Every single one of those machines has the cost of the operating system factored into the retail price. Joe Average may not actually buy a boxed copy of Vista, but he is still paying for it.

By the way, knowing how to install pirated versions of Windows doesn’t make you “techno-savvy”. It makes you a script kiddie.

knowing how to install pirated versions of any other commercial product is the same deal. and the resellers that have to fix the F@#%! mistakes of other less honest resellers usually get the blame for the problems that the client is facing. (of course, if you really want to make the life of the other reseller responsible really hard, get their contact details and pass to the client)

bothering to get a keygen and cracking a program is pretty dumb anyway, how long till the commercial manufacturers resort to the old dongle system? then we are all well and truly stuffed.

Better to use the Free Software (almost the opposite of warez) and build a better world for everyone IMHO.

Aurelius wrote:

PeterH, If you need advice on how the majority of Windows users are doing so without having paid for the products, you’re less techno-savvy than I previously believed.

If you believe the majority of Windows users didn’t pay for the software, you’re a fool, either because you fail to understand the maning of “majority”, or you fail to realise how Microsoft actually makes money by selling operating systems.

A very large majority of windows-based home computers are bought either at big-name retailers like Harvey Norman, Domayne, Dick Smith, or online from Dell/IBM/HP.

Every single one of those machines has the cost of the operating system factored into the retail price. Joe Average may not actually buy a boxed copy of Vista, but he is still paying for it.

By the way, knowing how to install pirated versions of Windows doesn’t make you “techno-savvy”. It makes you a script kiddie.

johnboy said :

I should say that without the opportunities offered by Free Software to implement real world solutions at no cost RiotACT would not exist.

Everyone who uses this site owes a huge debt to Richard Stallman’s vision.

I’d rather pay for implementation of great ideas than pay someone to re-invent the wheel and which work is going to be more rewarding really?

Oh, well said, that man.

While I abhor cliches and buzzwords, the unavoidable word of the moment is ‘innovation’, and what JB is saying celebrates new stuff done different and brought to life with a new focus and vision. Agh! More buzzwords.

I wanted so much to get down to check this out at the Bus Depot Markets and have a yak to those what know these teck-know-logic-all bits and pieces more than I, however, time was not on my side (the obverse of the Rolling Stones’ song of the slightly different name).

AND I was just around the corner, though sadly radio programs do not themselves create, though I’ll bet quids there exists software that could roughly approximate the same, even if the show turns out a little soul-less.

(We do blues and world, but not so much soul. Boom tish.)

I’ll be OOT for next week’s Open Source stuff, but Loq, if there’s anywhere else I can tap into this stuff outside of the organised gigs, I’m all ears.

JB,

not going to dampen my enthusiasm re open source, however advocating ways to get microsoft commercial software for free, is not very good advice at all. open source is for those of us who don’t want to pay for our software, microsoft is for those who do.

BTW, the new Open Source CD that I picked up today is pretty cool.

I should say that without the opportunities offered by Free Software to implement real world solutions at no cost RiotACT would not exist.

Everyone who uses this site owes a huge debt to Richard Stallman’s vision.

I’d rather pay for implementation of great ideas than pay someone to re-invent the wheel and which work is going to be more rewarding really?

Oh, and I might add that cost is not a deciding factor in my decision, as I have legal free access to almost all Microsoft applications through an MSDN Subscription

Windows just means frustration to me, like when I run into scenarios where I can’t even install a legit copy of Windows onto a laptop because Windows Genuine Advantage won’t load the desktop until I’ve authenticated over the internet, but I can’t connect to the internet until I can get onto the desktop to install the network drivers, and I don’t feel like calling Microsoft for permission at midnight, I’d just prefer to install Ubuntu instead

Aurelius said :

taco,

While the possibilities you speak might exist, the question not being addressed is ‘why’.
Why should any user switch?
This thread is 65 posts long, and noone ever says ‘if you switch, you’ll be able to do 1, 2 and 3 which you couldn’t do before’
The average punter is not going to change the way they do things unless they see benefit. The biggest error the open source zealots have in their marketing is forgetting that.

Why?

Ubuntu Linux in particular vs. Windows XP

Ubuntu peforms better than Windows on less hardware – My computer has been running all day playng TV and watching downloaded shows, it’s got 8 tabs of firefox open right now and a torrent program running, full 3D accelerated desktop effects, yet it’s only using 338mb of RAM (plus 39mb in the swap file)

I get updates for free for every piece of software on my system through the one Update manager. On Windows every program would be running it’s own background downloader process to check for updates separately, if at all. As a bonus the Ubuntu updates are mirrored on my ISP (iinet) and thus I don’t use quota for downloading them 🙂

There are no known viruses, spyware or adware for Linux in the wild, thus I do not need to buy, run and update multiple additional security software. No worries about having my machine 0wn3d just by visiting a website with a malicious banner.

Stability – in the two years I’ve been using Ubuntu as my primary OS I’ve never once seen a kernel panic (equivalent of a Blue Screen Of Death) – Sure I’ve had applications play up and crash/hang, but never the entire system (though loosing X in a desktop type scenario is arguably as bad as a BSOD)

Ease of repairs – Sure I have seriously broken Ubuntu, but I’ve never needed to give up and just re-install like I need to do with Windows when it carks it.

The main reason I like Ubuntu though is that I no longer feel like I am struggling with my own system to do basic tasks. When I used Windows I kept a folder fulled of cracked software, codecs etc that I considered essential to setting up a new installation. On Ubuntu I don’t. It “just works”.

so aurelius, are you still there?

Aurelius said :

PeterH,
If you need advice on how the majority of Windows users are doing so without having paid for the products, you’re less techno-savvy than I previously believed.

I personally don’t like the idea of looking down the barrel of a total ban by microsoft. seen it done in canberra a couple of times, and the results weren’t pretty.

I work in the industry Aurelius, and have had to pick up the pieces when clients have been dudded by morons who believe that they shouldn’t have to pay – like loading the same serial multiple times for their PCs or selling them the software, using a keygen to create the auth keys and not being around when microsoft finds multiple problems with the keys at rego.

if this is a service that you are providing, cut it out. chances are, you are stuffing it for your clients and for other resellers – we all get tarred with the same brush.

or, if you know others who are doing it, tell them to cut it out. if they don’t want to pay, go to linux. If they want to use commercial products, start paying. the pricing will only keep going up whilst the commercial companies try to re-coup their losses from piracy.

I’m back in the saddle again, now better than i was and the wife has banished me to work. In regards to open source vs commercial, there are some products that are free that are great. I use several. There are commercial products that I am happy to pay money for and do.

It is down to personal choice, and whether you feel confident with open source products – no support is a bit scary for new users. Which is why there are so many microsoft users.

they may never need support, but they understand it is there.

I, on the other hand, don’t, but I ensure I have access to my 3 o/s’s so as to have a handle on new releases across the environment.

PeterH,
If you need advice on how the majority of Windows users are doing so without having paid for the products, you’re less techno-savvy than I previously believed.

Aurelius said :

Dogen,
Noone pays for Microsoft products (to use an obvious example)
Except total n00bs who know no better

really?

care to elaborate as to how you are using microsoft products for free??

I would love to know about that trick….

Aurelius said :

Dogen,
Noone pays for Microsoft products (to use an obvious example)
Except total n00bs who know no better

So are you advocating piracy then?

As the only other way I can see anyone getting free MS s/w is by beta-testing or by bundling with hardware (and in that case you really are just paying for it another way).

Dogen,
Noone pays for Microsoft products (to use an obvious example)
Except total n00bs who know no better

Dogen,
Noone pays for Microsoft products (to use an obvious example)
Except toal n00bs who know no better

Why switch from something you pay for to somthing that is free? Hmmm….

taco,

While the possibilities you speak might exist, the question not being addressed is ‘why’.
Why should any user switch?
This thread is 65 posts long, and noone ever says ‘if you switch, you’ll be able to do 1, 2 and 3 which you couldn’t do before’
The average punter is not going to change the way they do things unless they see benefit. The biggest error the open source zealots have in their marketing is forgetting that.

gladbag said :

WMC – I am starting to think that way. I have microsoft and seem to spend alot of time lately sorting out viruses. My partner is of the view that I should stick to my os as we need to keep the kiddies driving “known” software for their assignments etc.

I would like to reformat and replace ms with something less inclined to become infected, however, am concerned that things will be wrong format for tender responses, school assignments etc, is there software that doesn’t cause issues like that? And as a fairly non techie, how easy is it to run these things?

gladbag, Wubi is a recently added feature from Ubuntu 8.04 and grants the ability to install Ubuntu “inside” Windows in much the same manner as you would any regular application

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wubi_(Ubuntu)

It allows you to try out Linux without re-partitioning your hard drive, and if it doesn’t work out for you, all you need to do is “uninstall” it from within Windows.
I haven’t actually tried it myself as I haven’t had Windows installed at home for about two years, but it sounds easy to use 😉

Onto the issue of file compatibility – I have written resumes and other documents in Open Office and selected to save in MS Word format and had no issues with other people opening them in Word.
You could test this yourself by installing Open Office on Windows and creating/opening various documents that you would be concerned with not working correctly, and comparing how they display in both.

If switching from Windows completely is not viable for you, one solution could be to run Linux as the host operating system with Windows installed onto one or more virtual machines.
An advantage of this is that you can setup these machines exactly the way you want them and then quickly and easily save it, then if the Windows VM broke you can just load that save and be working again in 30 seconds.
A disadvantage however is that virtualisation does require the hardware needed to run two or more operating systems at once, but most machines bought in the last two years or so should be more than capable of handling the extra load.
It is also not an acceptable solution for playing 3D Windows only games, so keeping Windows on another partition or using Wine would be required for those

As a non-techie it may be a bit challenging though to setup virtual machines, but once setup it’s really use to use (My partner and her brother, both non-techies, used Windows in a virtual machine to do their tax return with etax this year without any problems)

taco said :

Loquaciousness – You are making some mistakes in some of your statements

I’m sure I am – I am human, after all 😉

That said, you’ve made some assumptions.

You mention that many people get paid to work on open source software – you are absolutely correct, it just so happens that I am one of those people. The points you make are (in my opinion, at least) absolutely correct, however they are true only for that portion of the open source community that actually have business models around the software they develop – that is the Red Hats, the Suns and the Googles of the world. These companies certainly do make money out of open source software, the critical difference between them and the Microsofts and Apples is that the source is open – thus the term “open source”.

There are two phrases used in the Free/Libre and Open Source community, you may have come across them already. They are “Free as in speech” and “Free as in beer”. This is the main difference between the open source businesses you are discussing and the open source projects I have been talking about.

The projects – that is, those that are run by individuals, not companies – are free as in speech, as well as free as in beer. That means that the source is open and anyone can contribute to it; it also means that it doesn’t cost anything to download.

The software that companies such as Red Hat produce is free as in speech but it is not free as in beer. So, the source is open and anyone can contribute, but to get the software you will need to pay. Now the way they do this is they don’t charge for the software itself, they charge for the extra bits – things like 24/7 phone support, official documentation, rigorous QA procedures, internationalisation and localisation. In this way, they can provide commercial grade software, at a significantly cheaper (in dollar terms) cost to the consumer.

In all honesty, I was probably using the term “open source” to mean something more specific than the term implies. The software that can be considered “open source” is anything that has a publicly viewable source, regardless of whether or not the supplier is charging for it (and, for the record, there is nothing in the GPL that states that you can’t sell software licenced as such for a profit, although other licences are not so permissive).

Where the confusion has come in is that I have been referring to open source software that is also free software. This is the stuff that is free as in beer. Admittedly, many of the open source companies have spin-off projects that are free versions of the commercial product – peter@home as mentioned Open SuSe; there is also Fedora from Red Hat and Solaris from Sun, amongst others – however most of these are seperate entities and have their own communities. Apart from those anomalies, free software projects are almost exclusively backyard projects – some developer has had a great idea, other developers have agreed, they all work in their spare time to see that idea come to fruition. To my mind, this is what software freedom is all about, and these are the people we should be supporting. The people who have just thought, “I could really use something that did X, maybe others could use it too …” and have gone about making that dream a reality, not just for themselves, but for anyone else who might benefit from it.

L

Dogen said :

This is Mr Jessieduck, a hope my name is suitably manly. Though I considered Musclegrowler, Bikertiger, He-bouncer-panther, I’ve gone with something I can live with long term. Because clearly jessieduck is not going to stop carrying on about this web sight, if you can’t beat em, join em.

So…hi!!

Hi! Welcome on board Dogen. Hope to see you about the place 🙂

L

There’s plenty of well-known business models involving making a product which is given away for free. Google, Channel Ten and the Riot-Act being but three examples. Sun make an OS that they give away for free too, and it’s not open source.

The open source product support industry is incredibly capatilistic – multiple vendors offering you support, competing on price and quality.

Better business model????

They make a product they give away for free.
What definition of ‘business model’ are you using taco??

Loquaciousness – You are making some mistakes in some of your statements

No free software is ever going to be the same quality as something that people pay money for. Why? Because people are doing it out of charity, or because they feel particularly passionate about it, or because they want something to do in their spare time. Those things are never going to be as great a motivator as a weekly wage.

There are many people who are employed specifically to work on open source projects by companies who have a vested interest in various projects – Linus Torvalds is employed full time to work on the Linux Kernel, as are many other people.
Mozilla Corp employs people to specifically to work on Firefox (they get millions in funding from Google in return for Google being the default search option)

I would say that Open Source is in fact the only way one can be sure of the quality of the software they are running, as it is much harder to hide bad programming when every man and his dog is free to inspect it.

Another reason why Linux will never have the drivers and other interoperability measures of Microsoft or Apple are because those companies pay for them. Hardware vendors are always going to make their hardware compatible with MS and Apple before any of the free options. This is for two reasons – because those companies hold close to 100% of the market, giving the hardware vendors a captive (and guaranteed) market, and because they are paid to do so.

I am not sure of the validity of this statement, but I am reasonably sure that companies don’t get paid by Microsoft to provide drivers.
It is true that they usually only aim for Windows compatibility simply because the Windows family accounts for over 90% of the market, thus it would not make financial sense to duplicate their costs by writing multiple versions of the driver.
Luckily many vendors are now starting to see the potential of supporting Linux (such as AMD), especially when all they really need to do is provide documentation on how their hardware works (which as a consumer you should demand anyway), and the Open Source/Free Software community will do their work for them, for free, often with increased stability from better quality control.

@ S4anta

The one thing I would like to add about proprietary software is one word – warranty.

This is a good point, however I would argue that Open Source software has the better business model here.

The proprietary model is to discontinue support in two years so that everyone is forced to buy the newest version to keep on receiving updates. They have no real motivation to continue to provide support (You will also find that most EULAs state that the software is provided as-is without warranty of any kind except where required by local law)

The Open Source model is to provide the software for free, then charge for professional support. As they now make their money from supplying good service, they have motivation to continue to provide good support, and if they decide that they don’t want to anymore any other company is now free to provide that service indefinitely.

The funny thing about the open source community is that they seem to eventually move their “free” products into production. Then it becomes a commercial product. Apple, who have one of the best OS’s out there, also have free sdk kits available for the iphone. it is not a matter of who has the best products, it is a matter of who decides to make money or not. Open source products are free. you pay nothing for them.

commercial products aren’t. if you want to get a free version of software that will do everything you need, and appear friendly to a novice, check out opensuse. any advancements that you contribute to will eventually come to me after they are ratified. in suse.

I personally believe that the market has room for both commercial and open source, as long as the user is able to make competent decisions regarding the best software for their purposes. if they choose open source software, however, to communicate with a business who uses a proprietary app, there may be some inconsistencies.

“WMC, name 3 products that don’t have any form of subscription requirement for their free updates.”

Joomla, and numerous add-ons (see our website http://www.gcc.asn.au ).
AVG keeps me safer.
Chrome is still a bit buggy but a good start
Firefox also a bit buggy but faster.

On the event, will Tess Ryan (no not the scotter one) be there I wonder?

I may drop by at the markets… before retiring to the Craft Beer Festival for the afternoon 😉 Any other project maintainers likely to be there?

gargamel said :

If you want to have a try at open source software – just be sure you have a fall back plan if you want to return to your old ways.

Absolutely. A fallback is a good idea whenever you try something new (whatever that may be – open source or otherwise). Do a backup, make sure that you can get back to where you were if it all goes awry.

Nothing is infallible – especially when we’re talking software/hardware. Often, software doesn’t do what you think it will do, it might mangle your data in unexpected ways. Just as often, hardware can fail for no apparent reason, or simply not operate they way you expect.

Always back up your data, and always build in good fail-safe systems, regardless of what new thing you’re trying.

gladbag said :

WMC – I am starting to think that way. I have microsoft and seem to spend alot of time lately sorting out viruses.

Microsoft is well known for being vulnerable to adware and other viruses. Mostly it’s as others have already said – they’re a bigger target for those who write these things. I mean, if you get your thrill from infecting machines, why infect a few thousand when you can quite successfully infect a few million? It doesn’t necessarily reflect on the quality of the software or the ease of breaking into the code, although there’s many statistics that can ‘prove’ both sides of that argument.

gladbag said :

My partner is of the view that I should stick to my os as we need to keep the kiddies driving “known” software for their assignments etc.

This is interesting. I have my daughter using an Eee pc (running Xandros, a Linux distribution) and as she gets older she will be using whatever I have installed on my machine (currently Fedora 9). She will no doubt have a full-sized machine of her own at some point, and she will be given her choice of software to run on that. I know that Microsoft more or less have the education market tied up (there’s nothing entirely wrong with that, I’m stating it as a fact, not as an opinion), but I don’t see why children should only be taught one way of doing things.

Let me draw a picture – when teaching a young child to dress themselves, we might tell them to pull the shirt over their head first, and then put their arms through. We might show them to put both their socks on and then both their shoes. Why? Mostly because as adults we’ve found this to be the most effective method to achieve those tasks. As parents then, what do you do when the child choose to put one arm, then their head and then the other arm through? What if they decide to put one sock and one shoe on, then work on the other foot? They’re not wrong, they’re just doing it differently.

The point I’m trying to make is that children are smart. Think about how much you know about the world around you, and compare that to your parents, your grandparents and your great-grandparents at the same age. Children in the current generation are so immersed in technology, and in so many different varieties – computer, PDAs, phones and cameras, just for starters – that it really is not going to be a challenge for them to learn something new. Indeed, I think you will find that if they aren’t given technological challenges then they will be off finding some other type of challenge instead. We might find it difficult to pick up and learn a whole new OS – I sincerely doubt your children, especially at the young age that they will be introduced to new technologies, will have a similar difficulty. They may require specialised software in the future to get their work done, but if they have exposure to all the options, and no one telling them that one is “right” or “better”, then they are making informed choices. And isn’t that the greatest thing we can teach our children?

L

jessieduck said :

I didn’t even notice!!! Blinded by love I guess

Better than being sighted by the web I imagine …. 😉

Woody Mann-Caruso said :

WMC, name 3 products that don’t have any form of subscription requirement for their free updates.

Are you serious? I’d be flat out naming three that do. I don’t pay for or subscribe to any of my software.

AVG software, Avast, ad aware etc

Ah, I get it now – you’re thinking of ‘subscriptions’ to crap like virus and spyware definitions. Quite telling that this is the sort of junk you think of when you think of software. Fortunately, I use a real OS and have no need for this sort of thing – just another advantage of being free.

As for your delusion that just because something has a price tag it must have been rigorously tested – wow. I mean seriously. Wow. How’s the weather in la la land? Can you even tell without subscribing to some sort of closed source weather bloatware?

eh?

what?

sorry, as I am a user of 3 o/s’s simultaneously – try that windows users, I have never been one to use open source and regret it.

parallels was opensource, then it became an great idea, now it is commercial.

I run, FYI – Mac OSX Leopard, Win XP SP2, Linux – Suse 10.2

try doing that on anything other than a mac…
and if you include the mach64 kernel in the mac, oops, that is 4 o/s’s…

and all the opensource code I could want.

I’m not going to bother responding to your post Dogen as I think I’ve made myself clear enough aside from saying that you’re proving the point I made above re the ‘war’ (which yes L, you’re right – you didn’t say anything about a war – I did). Oh ok, and yeah I’ll bite too – change? hmmm open source aint a new thing mate.

One thing I will say for open source Gladbag is that the only immediate ‘cost’ of such software is the hard drive it sits on. If you’re uneasy with the lack of assurance such software provides the only cost you have is the hard drive you put the software on. IMHO if you’re not comfortable with installing seperate drives (or seperate partitions – I’m lazy so I stick with hardware for such experiments as I have enough old HDs floating about – less of a hassle when you want to clean things up and the cost isn’t that great) then you ought not experiment with open source as open source (Operating Systems at least). If you want to have a try at open source software – just be sure you have a fall back plan if you want to return to your old ways.

I’d definitely side with the open source supporters. I’ve only recently started using Linux (in the form of an Asus Eee) but I have had no problems with it what-so-ever. With the programs that come preloaded on it (all open-source freeware) I can do everything that I could possibly want on a small ultra-portable computer. I know nothing about how to program Linux and I don’t need to because the programs don’t crash all the time like on other OS’s I am very familiar with 🙂

If you are on this forum actually defending commercial software over open-source you should stop and think what you are really saying; That people should just accept what commercial software developers produce, even if they sell it with known bugs and extra “features” that no one actually needs or wants.

Why attack a bunch of people who are trying to develop an alternative to bloated crappy commercial software?. Open-source actually pushes the commercial developers to improve. Internet Explorer has basically followed the lead of Fire Fox for years.

Open-source programs also form the backbone of much of the internet Linux, Apache and so on. Not all servers run Windows.

What you are really attacking is change. If you are comfortable with using the same software you have always used and not trying anything new, if paying $300 for word processing software makes you feel warm and fuzzy, fine, just think about what you motivations really are.

WMC – I am starting to think that way. I have microsoft and seem to spend alot of time lately sorting out viruses. My partner is of the view that I should stick to my os as we need to keep the kiddies driving “known” software for their assignments etc.

I would like to reformat and replace ms with something less inclined to become infected, however, am concerned that things will be wrong format for tender responses, school assignments etc, is there software that doesn’t cause issues like that? And as a fairly non techie, how easy is it to run these things?

WMC – settle petal…

Malicious code against other code is only written if the masses use the other code – you ought to know that. Once code is popular and is a target, for whatever reason, of an attack then it ought to be expected that an attack will arise. I’m sure the developers of Chrome are expecting that someone will try some kind of offensive against it – surely!

LOL.

Good luck with the phone ‘support’ you get for that sort of stuff, too. Funnily enough I don’t need to run any of it on either of my Fedora/MacOS boxes…

And three-post nutbag:

Do you even see the irony in claiming that paid software is better, then listing a bunch of other software you have to pay for as well just to try to compensate for all the holes in it?

WMC, name 3 products that don’t have any form of subscription requirement for their free updates.

Are you serious? I’d be flat out naming three that do. I don’t pay for or subscribe to any of my software.

AVG software, Avast, ad aware etc

Ah, I get it now – you’re thinking of ‘subscriptions’ to crap like virus and spyware definitions. Quite telling that this is the sort of junk you think of when you think of software. Fortunately, I use a real OS and have no need for this sort of thing – just another advantage of being free.

As for your delusion that just because something has a price tag it must have been rigorously tested – wow. I mean seriously. Wow. How’s the weather in la la land? Can you even tell without subscribing to some sort of closed source weather bloatware?

I didn’t even notice!!! Blinded by love I guess

As you can see jessieduck is the speller not me, “web sight”? Really?

I have no idea where you pulled that name from love :c)

Hi Dogen!

I hadn’t even tried Rumpelstiltskin yet!!

; )

This is Mr Jessieduck, a hope my name is suitably manly. Though I considered Musclegrowler, Bikertiger, He-bouncer-panther, I’ve gone with something I can live with long term. Because clearly jessieduck is not going to stop carrying on about this web sight, if you can’t beat em, join em.

So…hi!!

Loquaciousness said :

Men! What is it with the whole “needing to sound like a man” thing?

And ROFL @ “manly-grrr sounding”!

L

Musclegrowler? Bikertiger? He-bouncer-panther?

*tee hee*

Aurelius said :

I am heart-broken to hear there *IS* a Mr Jessieduck
:p

He does it tough

jessieduck said :

Granny said :

Loquaciousness said :

And while I’m here – welcome Gramps and Mr Jessieduck!

L

LOL

I kind of have the feeling that Mr Jessieduck will turn out not to be ‘Mr Jessieduck’ ….

I don’t actually know what he’s picked but I’m sure it’ll be tougher and more manly-grrr sounding!

Men! What is it with the whole “needing to sound like a man” thing?

And ROFL @ “manly-grrr sounding”!

L

I am heart-broken to hear there *IS* a Mr Jessieduck
:p

Granny said :

Loquaciousness said :

And while I’m here – welcome Gramps and Mr Jessieduck!

L

LOL

I kind of have the feeling that Mr Jessieduck will turn out not to be ‘Mr Jessieduck’ ….

I don’t actually know what he’s picked but I’m sure it’ll be tougher and more manly-grrr sounding!

Loquaciousness said :

And while I’m here – welcome Gramps and Mr Jessieduck!

L

LOL

I kind of have the feeling that Mr Jessieduck will turn out not to be ‘Mr Jessieduck’ ….

Loquaciousness said :

I’ve been told now that doors will be open to allow access to the room.

thankyou

And while I’m here – welcome Gramps and Mr Jessieduck!

L

Granny said :

I think mine just wanted to see me!

Yes, that’s the main reason I signed up too. On the bright side, at least now we have lots to talk about offline as well!

L

I think mine just wanted to see me!

gramps said :

Well! “Mr Granny” indeed!

The forums I have to join just to keep up with what’s going on. At least Riot ACT has has a great rabble.

My husband has just signed up too! I think he thought it best to see was I was getting hot under the collar about!

Well! “Mr Granny” indeed!

The forums I have to join just to keep up with what’s going on. At least Riot ACT has has a great rabble.

Loquaciousness said :

Yes I went from Vista to Fedora back in May, and the experience was quite satisfying 🙂

If Mr Granny is interested in getting involved in something, get him to drop me a line. I work in the industry and might be able to nudge him in the right direction.

(Hope the school fete is a roaring success too!)

L

Thanks, L!

I will pass that on.

Oh, and apparently I’m not allowed to call him Mr Granny anymore. I have to call him ‘Gramps’ now. I was rather fond of Mr Granny really. Obviously Mr Grumpy is more appropriate, however!

Nevertheless, Microsoft is annoying in many ways. I have a sneaking suspicion that my computer would actually run without their fat, bloated, spaghetti code getting stuck in my silicon.

gargamel said :

Ah dear – I just wish this ‘war’ the open source crew had against everyone who exercise their right to use whatever software with whatever form of license is appealing to them.

But as I said before – things haven’t changed in the last 15 years on that front.

Sorry – I guess I’m just jaded as whenever I hear ‘open-source’ I feel the people who are talking about it are very defensive.

It seems to me to be a little like the Queanbeyan people trying to defend their territory – no-one else really, truly gives a stuff in reality… we just get on with it and use whatever software we like – whether it is open source or not…

gargamel – everyone is entitled to an opinion, and no one can (or indeed should) dictate what software people choose to use on their own systems (of course, organisations can dictate what software their staff use, but that isn’t within the scope of this comment). It would be like me trying to tell you what colour car I think you should drive, and that you were some kind of heretic for not following my advice.

I find your choice of the word “war” interesting. I have never viewed it that way. I’m involved in this because I’m passionate about freedom of ideas, not because I’m fighting a “war” against people who use proprietary software (in fact, it’s something I rarely mention outside of a technical conversation), or because I think people who use or develop proprietary software are the “enemy”.

To quote myself:

I’m not for a moment suggesting that everyone under the sun should ditch proprietary formats

The point of my post was to advertise an event, and to raise awareness. My opinion is that you should use whatever software helps you get your work done, drive whatever car makes you feel good, and attend the events you care about. If that doesn’t include SFD, then that’s your choice, and I for one am able to respect that. Thanks for your comments, either way.

L

Gargamel, of course they’re defensive. They’ve got products the customer doesn’t have to pay for and they STILL can’t get market penetration. Therefore, the logical conclusion is they have failed because their products are rubbish.

peter@home said :

oh, and one other thing, I would prefer to pay for my software, I at least know it has been tested ad infinitum, as opposed to opensource, where I may well be the tester.

As a professional (proprietary) software developer I find this statement really rather amusing.

Both commercial and open source software engages in testing with two critical differences.
In open source software the testing is public, so people can see what has been done.
In commercial software the emphasis is to ship product so you can make money, in open source software the emphasis is to ship a product that you can be proud of.

Ah dear – I just wish this ‘war’ the open source crew had against everyone who exercise their right to use whatever software with whatever form of license is appealing to them.

But as I said before – things haven’t changed in the last 15 years on that front.

Sorry – I guess I’m just jaded as whenever I hear ‘open-source’ I feel the people who are talking about it are very defensive.

It seems to me to be a little like the Queanbeyan people trying to defend their territory – no-one else really, truly gives a stuff in reality… we just get on with it and use whatever software we like – whether it is open source or not…

Loquaciousness said :

Can non-CSIT students get in the building on the day?

I’ve been told now that doors will be open to allow access to the room.

L

Davo111 said :

Can non-CSIT students get in the building on the day? CSIT has swipe card access and strong security measures.

Davo111, I imagine something has been put in place, but I’m trying to get an ‘official’ answer for you now. Watch this space 😉

L

Can non-CSIT students get in the building on the day? CSIT has swipe card access and strong security measures.

peter@home said :

WMC, name 3 products that don’t have any form of subscription requirement for their free updates.

Firefox
Open Office
Fedora

L

oh, and one other thing, I would prefer to pay for my software, I at least know it has been tested ad infinitum, as opposed to opensource, where I may well be the tester.

Woody Mann-Caruso said :

Warranties for proprietary software are useless, as is phone support. “Have you tried uninstalling and reinstalling? Must be a hardware / driver / dll issue – can’t help you.” Stick your hand up in an open software forum, though, and you’ll be inundated with help.

As for free updates with a subscription – you’re joking, right? How is this an advantage over free software you can get free updates for with no subscription required?

WMC, name 3 products that don’t have any form of subscription requirement for their free updates.

AVG software, Avast, ad aware etc, etc, they all need you to register with them, and will keep your info.

want to get ad – free software, then you can buy it.

Warranties for proprietary software are useless, as is phone support. “Have you tried uninstalling and reinstalling? Must be a hardware / driver / dll issue – can’t help you.” Stick your hand up in an open software forum, though, and you’ll be inundated with help.

As for free updates with a subscription – you’re joking, right? How is this an advantage over free software you can get free updates for with no subscription required?

S4anta said :

The one thing I would like to add about proprietary software is one word;

warranty.

and another thing, free phone support, free updates whilst in subscription, etc, etc.

The one thing I would like to add about proprietary software is one word;

warranty.

as I am sick at home, not surrounded by my vendors, resellers etc….

Novell SuSe is a commercial program built on open source community involvement. The sister program, which spawns the great things in SuSe is called OpenSuSe – and it is completely free.

the Novell SuSe costs $50.00 USD for a subscription for 12-months. the reason that it is a viable alternative to windows are the features that it has including USB support, the Beryl graphic engine, the cube desktop etc. These are all open source innovations. IBM have developed a linux version of their notes application, which runs on SuSe.

and now for some comments:

Making people more productive usually means either that a) they don’t have to learn anything new and they can do what they always did a little better, or that b) they have to learn a tiny bit more, but they can do something before that they couldn’t before.

can you explain to me why Microsoft Office 2007 went out with a complete re-structure re forms, tabs and menu’s? How long does it take to re-learn it all?

Open office – looks the same as the “old” office. Easy to use, and it is FREE.

The commercial version of SuSe has the 2007 converters built in. what a great idea.

For most people, switching to Linux is neither a) or b). You have to learn a bunch of new stuff to do the same old stuff. And by switching, you lose access to tons of applications, thereby enabling you to do less. Oh, but it does enable you to spend many of your weekends now trying to learn to program so that you can fix bugs and contribute code so that programs will let you do what you could already do before you started going down this merry path.

don’t you have to learn a bunch of new stuff with Vista?
what tons of apps?
why not:

format the drive into 2 partitions, one for win xp, one for linux, and slowly wean your self from xp to linux??

VMware was an opensource program, so was xensource.

and a mac will cost you $3000? bollocks.

$1599 for a basic imac. will do everything most people need.

gargamel said :

Oh and for the average Joe – open source is so much safer cos it it *LESS* likely to contain virii, adware et al and of course it won’t be badly written will it…?

Absolutely! All I was trying to say is that you can get in and take a look, if that is your kind of thing.

gargamel said :

Again though – good luck with it – I’m sure if there are others out there with your enthusiasm Loq then it’ll be a good day.

Thanks gargamel. I’m hardly the most enthusiastic supporter of the open source community (a few I’ve met could do with a deep breath and a lie-down), but it hasn’t done me wrong yet.

L

In the Roman province of Judaea, there were fanatical terrorists who were determined to drive out the Roman occupiers. This was despite all the benefits that the Romans had bought the region (we’ve all seen the list on “Life of Brian”, the aqueducts, roads, civil order, peace etc).
These people were called ‘zealots’.

Loquaciousness said :

Aurelius said :

Duke, yeah, go along, get a free OS that’s not less useful than the one you had until recently. Top idea!

Not less useful + $400 cheaper == bargain!

L

L, I think you’re buying software at the wrong outlet if you’re paying $400 for a copy of XP…

Aurelius said :

With proprietary software that you pay money for, the source code is under lock and key, so you can never be quite sure what you’re getting. It could contain viruses or adware, have security vulnerabilities, or just be badly written, making the software unreliable and unstable. Open source software is not only free to use, and free to share with your friends, but it’s also a step towards personal freedom for everybody. With open source software you can see exactly what you’re getting, and can help to make the software better, even if you aren’t a developer.

Oh and for the average Joe – open source is so much safer cos it it *LESS* likely to contain virii, adware et al and of course it won’t be badly written will it…?

Good luck with SFD. Personally, I’d rather just download the (legally) free software after researching into whether it has spyware than have to head out to some place and walk around talking to people. Partly cos, as you put it, I would be talking TO the open source community rather than BE part of the open source community – that attitude being something I’ve noticed in the open source movement not only recently but over the last 15 or so years since I came across you lot.

Lets also ignore the fact that prop software is not necessarily s/w you as the end user pays for – a la Acrobat, Flash etc, IExplorer… etc etc(and can’t you find out how Acrobat works under the hood pretty easily? (not sure about IE – never had the need to worry about that…)

As Aurelius put it:

Aurelius said :

If you make something better and it makes people more productive then people will switch to it.

IMHO such a day as this goes against the very idea behind open source cos you’re really admitting that the software you’re peddling needs support rather than letting the product pull it’s own weight.

Again though – good luck with it – I’m sure if there are others out there with your enthusiasm Loq then it’ll be a good day.

My bad – I linked to the wrong Linux Hater’s post. That one should be it.

L

Aurelius said :

The problem with open source software (Linux being the best example) is that it is anti-productive. That’s why it’s not got the market penetration the acolytes want it to have. If you make something better and it makes people more productive then people will switch to it. Look at Google Chrome for example. That thing has been out one week and it already has more penetration than Linux.

Making people more productive usually means either that a) they don’t have to learn anything new and they can do what they always did a little better, or that b) they have to learn a tiny bit more, but they can do something before that they couldn’t before.

For most people, switching to Linux is neither a) or b). You have to learn a bunch of new stuff to do the same old stuff. And by switching, you lose access to tons of applications, thereby enabling you to do less. Oh, but it does enable you to spend many of your weekends now trying to learn to program so that you can fix bugs and contribute code so that programs will let you do what you could already do before you started going down this merry path.

OK – I’ll bite.

:sigh:

For starters, I read the Linux Hater’s Blog too.

And for seconds, I actually agree with you (and quite a lot of what our dear Linux Hater has to say too).

No free software is ever going to be the same quality as something that people pay money for. Why? Because people are doing it out of charity, or because they feel particularly passionate about it, or because they want something to do in their spare time. Those things are never going to be as great a motivator as a weekly wage.

The other reason is because open source projects – unlike proprietary projects developed within a corporation – aren’t subject to strict quality controls, usability testing, marketing (which includes making the interface pretty as well as the packaging), version control and those types of things. Open source projects are also prone to havings things happen like lead developers just losing interest, or moving onto other things. There’s more dead projects out there than there are live ones, and the quantity of those that could potentially have been something promising is (i imagine) reasonably high.

Another reason why Linux will never have the drivers and other interoperability measures of Microsoft or Apple are because those companies pay for them. Hardware vendors are always going to make their hardware compatible with MS and Apple before any of the free options. This is for two reasons – because those companies hold close to 100% of the market, giving the hardware vendors a captive (and guaranteed) market, and because they are paid to do so.

Now, having said all that, I also believe this – that software (as should all intellectual property) should not be in the hands of corporations, but in the hands of those who developed it. I have a really big moral problem with people “owning” ideas, and that is where Software Freedom comes in.

I’m not for a moment suggesting that everyone under the sun should ditch proprietary formats and come over to the light – they have their place, and that place shall remain, whether it’s monopolised by Microsoft, Apple or $NEW_COMPANY. But the concept of free software, and freedom of ideas is a valid one, and I for one support it. I do that by using and contributing to open source projects, and by helping out with events such as SFD.

And, in the true spirit of RiotACT – if you don’t support the cause, don’t go along 😛

L

The problem with open source software (Linux being the best example) is that it is anti-productive. That’s why it’s not got the market penetration the acolytes want it to have. If you make something better and it makes people more productive then people will switch to it. Look at Google Chrome for example. That thing has been out one week and it already has more penetration than Linux.

Making people more productive usually means either that a) they don’t have to learn anything new and they can do what they always did a little better, or that b) they have to learn a tiny bit more, but they can do something before that they couldn’t before.

For most people, switching to Linux is neither a) or b). You have to learn a bunch of new stuff to do the same old stuff. And by switching, you lose access to tons of applications, thereby enabling you to do less. Oh, but it does enable you to spend many of your weekends now trying to learn to program so that you can fix bugs and contribute code so that programs will let you do what you could already do before you started going down this merry path.

Granny said :

This is a great idea! We would go, but I’m manning a stall at the school fete that day.

Mr Granny is a software developer so I understand something of the amount of work and sacrifice that must go into developing these open source products. Mr Granny does do some freeware, but he has never found his way into the open source community.

Me, I love my newly discovered Firefox. If that is so good, what might an operating system be like? The mind boggles!

Yes I went from Vista to Fedora back in May, and the experience was quite satisfying 🙂

If Mr Granny is interested in getting involved in something, get him to drop me a line. I work in the industry and might be able to nudge him in the right direction.

(Hope the school fete is a roaring success too!)

L

Aurelius said :

Duke, yeah, go along, get a free OS that’s not less useful than the one you had until recently. Top idea!

Not less useful + $400 cheaper == bargain!

L

This is a great idea! We would go, but I’m manning a stall at the school fete that day.

Mr Granny is a software developer so I understand something of the amount of work and sacrifice that must go into developing these open source products. Mr Granny does do some freeware, but he has never found his way into the open source community.

Me, I love my newly discovered Firefox. If that is so good, what might an operating system be like? The mind boggles!

Mr_Shab said :

Is there anywhere that runs courses on how to use Linux? I’m interested, but I’m yet to find anyone who I can sit down with and learn from. I’d like to ditch Vista, but I’m nervous and I can only get so far from what’s out there on teh intertoobs.

I’ve asked around a bit, but I always get the same “Linux? Eww. Only nerds and losers use Linux. If you don’t like Windows, all you need to do is spend $3000 on a Mac”. When I reply that I don’t mind Windows THAT much, and anyway I don’t have $3000 to spend on anything, I usually get an answer with a subtext of “Well then, you’ve got no business owning a computer. Back to the stone age with you, troglodyte” and I get sad.

Yeah, I’ve been there Mr_Shab. There are courses around (the Red Hat ones spring to mind, I did their “Linux Essentials” course and it’s a very good grounding), unfortunately, they all cost money (which sort of flies in the face of the whole thing, IMHO). Probably what I would suggest is to get involved with the Canberra Linux User’s Group. Even if you don’t come to the meetings to start with, the email list is a great resource, and the archives are all available online if you want to browse. There’s been plenty of conversations over which distribution to choose, what works for beginners, and how to set up for Windows-like operation.

Having said all that, if you go for one of the more mainstream desktop versions – either Ubuntu or Fedora – they are very Windows-like in operation. If you’re a competent Windows user, I doubt you will have any trouble at all with either of those. The people who say that Linux is only for nerds are right for what Linux was five or ten years ago. A lot has changed since then.

I suggest you get along to the Install Fest – bring your hardware. Even if you don’t end up installing it on the day, at least the volunteers can take a look and make some suggestions. It’ll give you a chance to ask all the questions you want to.

HTH.

L

Is there anywhere that runs courses on how to use Linux? I’m interested, but I’m yet to find anyone who I can sit down with and learn from. I’d like to ditch Vista, but I’m nervous and I can only get so far from what’s out there on teh intertoobs.

I’ve asked around a bit, but I always get the same “Linux? Eww. Only nerds and losers use Linux. If you don’t like Windows, all you need to do is spend $3000 on a Mac”. When I reply that I don’t mind Windows THAT much, and anyway I don’t have $3000 to spend on anything, I usually get an answer with a subtext of “Well then, you’ve got no business owning a computer. Back to the stone age with you, troglodyte” and I get sad.

Duke, yeah, go along, get a free OS that’s not less useful than the one you had until recently. Top idea!

Duke said :

On a similar note, I need a boffin to help with a liddle IT problem i’m having. When I bought this computer a few years ago a friend installed Windows XP on it and it turns out now that this was from a burnt CD.

After a recent update I downloaded, Microsoft has identified my Windows as a pirate version and keeps hassling me about it. I now get a warning screen every time I boot up and a window popping up every few minutes asking me to resolve the problem.

Anybody know how I can get rid of all these warnings without buying a new Windows program? This one works great!

Love Duke

Come along to the Computer Fair on Sunday and pick up a free CD. You won’t have to buy a new Windows program at least … 😛

L

On a similar note, I need a boffin to help with a liddle IT problem i’m having. When I bought this computer a few years ago a friend installed Windows XP on it and it turns out now that this was from a burnt CD.

After a recent update I downloaded, Microsoft has identified my Windows as a pirate version and keeps hassling me about it. I now get a warning screen every time I boot up and a window popping up every few minutes asking me to resolve the problem.

Anybody know how I can get rid of all these warnings without buying a new Windows program? This one works great!

Love Duke