Sometimes it's about you

I’m glad you’re here to talk about it, Berraboy. It takes a lot of guts to get through something like that. A lot more to open up and confess. That makes you more of a man than many – to actually admit that you are human.

It sounds like they do wonderful work, guys. I really think the way that we make little boys feel like they mustn’t cry is just so unhealthy. How are they ever supposed to let things out?

thanks for the open account, berra – i know that uncontrolled crying too, and it is a scary dark place indeed.

and yeah, being open with colleagues, associates and friends is the best path forward and yes, beyond blue and many other organisations working in depression are to be much lauded.

You don’t sound like a nutter to me, MXF. Whatever the circumstances, the die has been cast. I wish you a future of many shades and hues beyond blue.

Hugs,
Granny.

Hiding the issue, driving it underground just feeds the stigma, Granny. I’m now a committed supporter of Beyond Blue.

Just in case anyone else out there is interested in, or troubled by, Depression, I thought I should give some possibly helpful Internet links:

* Blue Pages (excellent site on Depression, even though based at ANU):
http://bluepages.anu.edu.au/

* ACT Mental Health Consumer Network (local Mental Health advocacy group):
http://www.actmhcn.org.au/

* Depression Alliance (leading UK Depression charity):
http://www.depressionalliance.org/

* Time to Change (UK campaign against Mental Health stigma and discrimination):
http://www.time-to-change.org.uk/

* ‘A Journey through Darkness’, by Daphne Merkin (a personal story):
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/10/magazine/10Depression-t.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all

(Lifeline, on 13 11 14, offer 24-hour telephone counselling.)

Thank you all for your comments. I’m tempted to try to explain what this legal case was really about (from my point of view, at least), and why (despite so many difficulties) I thought it was worth pursuing. But that feels a bit like cheating, so I’ll have to let it be.

Whatever people might think about my own case, I think it’s fair to say that there is a lot of misunderstanding about mental illness (including depression) and a relative lack of compassion (compared to ‘physical illness’). I do hope that will change, for the better.

If you ever feel you need help, please talk to someone.
I wish you all the best.

You are one of the bravest men I know, Berra. I’m so honoured to call you my friend.

Jim Jones said :

BerraBoy68 said :

astrojax said :

everything but adelaide crows rate above collingwood, no..? [nrl aside, mai oui]

and agree, gobbo. an illness can be a disability, but depression isn’t such a malady.

From experience Depression can be actually quite debilitating, but is it a disability?. I wouldn’t like to think so but I do recall sitting for hours trying to make sense of my life, and life in general. I was literally unable to move or relate to others. It’s a terrible, terrible thing.

He’s probably claiming that, as an ailment that’s effecting his mental health, depression is, in effect, a form of disability (be it temporary or whatever).

Sounds like the guy’s real disability is that he’s a complete asshole.

I can’t comment on Firestone JJ but let me say relate my personal experience:

I was sitting watching TV one moment much as I do most nights. Sure I was generally unable to unwind, constantly worrying about stuff at work etc. This was no big deal and no different to most other guys you could say. But then add to this a number of other personal things that I’d never discussed with anybody including close mates. For example, the death of two brothers at young ages, witnessing the extremely violent and traumatic death of two strangers and the physical aftermath, the more recent death of my father who I personally nursed at home through the final stages of cancer, an extremely high maintenance (ex-alcoholic and physically and mentally abusive) mother, then learning about the sexual abuse of several friends and suddenly making sense of numerous suicides, just to name a few things going on in my life. None of which Id ever discussed with either my close friends or work colleagues. But that’s OK we men don’t talk about such things.

Anyway, back to this typical night in front of the TV some 14 months ago now. It bacame my own personal nightmare. Without any warning whatsoever my body started to shake and I started crying. Not sobbing, mind you, but a kind of crying and immense sadness I’ve never experienced before. I could literally hear myself screaming, not yelling but screaming as loud as I could for help. Not from anybody in particular, just anybody that could take some of what I was going though away. The weird bit, and this is the scary bit for me, is that even while I was screaming I was thinking quite clearly and calmly “this isn’t right, what’s going on here?” but I know I really needed some serious help if this was to stop. I was lucky enough to get in to see a psychologist the next day and my wife came with me on that first visit. After taking some tests my results for depression anxiety and stress where quite literally off the charts. And I do mean that there was no score in the test high enough to measure what was happening to me.

Luckily I was able to discuss with somebody for the first time what I’d been though in my life. I was also placed on medication that I spent some month on before taking myself off it. I did this as I want to be me, not a chemically induced version of me acceptable to others. Thankfully, with help I’ve also learned to enjoy life more.

Of note, however, is that when I went back to work I made a conscious decision not to hide the fact I’d had a breakdown and suffered through severe depression. What staggered me is the amount of people that approached me over the past 14 months to tell me that they too suffered a similar event(s) throughout their life. Sadly though almost all of them keep asked me to keep their secret in fear of some imagined stigma from others who possibly, just possibly, believe they are just “a complete asshole”.

I agree, ns.

I have absolutely no idea about the facts in relation to Firestone; but I, too, think it’s sad that this still appears to be the attitude in our community.

Surely anyone who has witnessed the debilitating effects of severe depression or other mental illness on a friend or loved one firsthand must understand that this is more than just a disadvantage for them.

I find it disheartening that no matter how much progress we might have made in recognising mental illnesses, there are still people referring to depression and stress leave as a ‘popular cop-out’ and a ‘modern illness’. Comments like these only underscore how much more education is needed in this area.

As someone who thought they’d kicked depression out of their lives a good 7 years back only to have it return this year, please believe me when I say that it’s a bit more serious than simply “feeling a bit blue”. The sad reality is that people are far more readily able to sympathise with visible illnesses.

I remember when a friend of mine got cancer the only visible sign of it was when her hair fell out. Now just because she otherwise remained the same funny, friendly and active individual she had always been did not mean that she didn’t have a serious illness at the same time. Mental illnesses are the same and they will affect different people differently – some will be completely incapacitated and others will remain outwardly the same. And sadly no doubt the latter are the ones that end up off-ing themselves after which their friends and families talk about how they never saw it coming. Depression exists regardless of whether or not it physically manifests.

peterh said :

almost as popular as “stress leave” funnmiest example I ever saw was a receptionist, who was paid to relax at home and de-stress for 2 months. how do i get diagnosed as being over stressed?

You’ve hit the nail on the head there. The reality is that if you were actually over stressed a medical professional would have been able to accurately ‘diagnose’ you. It’s not like depression is self-diagnosed. The first time it was suggested to me I completely refused to believe it. This time around I had learnt from my previous experience, was able to accept that I had a problem and hence deal with and treat the situation much better than before.

Notwithstanding everything I’ve just said, I know that there are people that try to take advantage when they may not in actuality be clinically depressed (e.g. I’m going to get an extension for my assignment by claiming to be over-stressed). But just because that happens doesn’t make the actual illness any less legitimate – I’m just saying you shouldn’t simply judge people simply because they seem fine to you.

Although I don’t know about Firestone (even IF his depression does qualify as a disability, it still doesn’t mean he was being discriminated against).

A lot of people with physical disabilities also experience the onset of depression due to the restrictions they experience in being able to participate in society in a manner they find meaningful.

This additional psychological disability can and often does result in an ever dwindling spiral for the individual concerned.

For #48 Gobbo,
Discrimination Act 1991 (A.C.T.)
*http://www.legislation.act.gov.au/a/1991-81/current/pdf/1991-81.pdf
[Page 3, Section 5AA (1)(f)]
“In this Act:
‘disability’ means – ..
an illness or condition which impairs a person’s thought processes, perception of reality, emotions or judgment or which results in disturbed behaviour ..”
(Previous versions of this Act used the term ‘impairment’ instead of ‘disability’, but with this same definition.)

On Depression, the World Health Organization says:
“Depression is a common mental disorder that presents with depressed mood, loss of interest or pleasure, feelings of guilt or low self-worth, disturbed sleep or appetite, low energy, and poor concentration. These problems can become chronic or recurrent and lead to substantial impairments in an individual’s ability to take care of his or her everyday responsibilities. At its worst, depression can lead to suicide, a tragic fatality associated with the loss of about 850 000 thousand lives every year.”
and
“Depression is the leading cause of disability as measured by YLDs and the 4th leading contributor to the global burden of disease (DALYs) in 2000.”
*http://www.who.int/mental_health/management/depression/definition/en/

http://www.dhcs.act.gov.au/employment_framework/what_is_disability

It’s really not complicated.

peterh said :

Granny said :

Yes, it’s not so much ‘What do you call the thing?’ as ‘How does it affect somebody’s ability to live a normal life?’

it is an illness, not a disability. a depressed person can still articulate their feelings and wishes to others. many disabled people cannot. Depression sufferers have use of their limbs, some disabled people do not. when it would get really murky, is if the person with depression is also disabled. I am not making light of either cirumstance, but what would the doctor say or do?

I think that is a very narrow definition of disability peterh. If your wife dies and you are sad, you aren’t depressed. You go, GOD DAMN I AM MOURNING LIKE A MOFO.

Depression is different. I am unconvinced that you know anything of depression. Prove me wrong please.

And that is a true request. I’ve been dying to be proven wrong by somebody for like 3 weeks now. I don’t even care what the topic is anymore.

Can someone give me the section of our legisaltion that includes within the definition of a disability depression.

Many thanks.

Die Lefty Scum said :

Depression is a very popular cop-out these days. This Firestone bloke needs a good elbow to the mouth.

You evidently have not had the experience of those close to you attempting suicide due to depression, or friends succeeding at it.

Clinical Depression is a serious illness. It’s the result of chemical imbalances in the brain and it can cause someone who’s life seems to be going fine to suddenly end it without any notice or sign. It is hardly a cop-out.

On this particular issue, if the tribunal has found that the university did not discriminate against him, it does not necessarily mean that he did not have depression. It’s just that the university chose not to process his application reasons other than depression.

Granny said :

Yes, it’s not so much ‘What do you call the thing?’ as ‘How does it affect somebody’s ability to live a normal life?’

it is an illness, not a disability. a depressed person can still articulate their feelings and wishes to others. many disabled people cannot. Depression sufferers have use of their limbs, some disabled people do not. when it would get really murky, is if the person with depression is also disabled. I am not making light of either cirumstance, but what would the doctor say or do?

Yes, it’s not so much ‘What do you call the thing?’ as ‘How does it affect somebody’s ability to live a normal life?’

VYBerlinaV8_the_one_they_all_copy said :

I think I once read that depression is a relatively modern illness. Apparently in ancient times people were so busy working to survive they didn’t have time to be depressed.

Not sure as to the correctness of this info, however.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

It’s more the case that it’s only begun to be diagnosed and pathologised in recent history. Ditto for stuff like post-traumatic stress disorder, which used to be ‘shell-shock’, and before that was ‘Daddy came home from the war and wasn’t himself any more’.

From your link Granny;

The definition

For the purposes of the Act:

* substantial means neither minor nor trivial
* long term means that the effect of the impairment has lasted or is likely to last for at least 12 months (there are special rules covering recurring or fluctuating conditions)
* normal day-to-day activities include everyday things like eating, washing, walking and going shopping
* a normal day-to-day activity must affect one of the ‘capacities’ listed in the Act which include mobility, manual dexterity, speech, hearing, seeing and memory

Whilst this is a British link, referring to their legislation, it is also quite useful in terms of considering the issues. Mental health and the Disability Discrimination Act (DDA)

I happen to know Michael and he actually had a pretty reasonable complaint against ANU. Depression can be a serious illness and can lead to disability. Nice to see that there is such a stigma against people with a mental illness in the community even on such sites as this.

ANU had a barrister and two solicitors at the Tribunal hearing whilst Michael was unrepresented. It serves ANU’s interests to make Michael out to be an utter nutter – actually he isn’t. But I guess when you have a crack legal team of hired guns you can argue pretty ferociously against one small fish who is trying to represent themselves.

I think the reporting of this case has been one-sided and the vitriolic and frankly, mean, responses on this website are a pretty sad indication of the superficial analysis that goes for news these days.

I say good on Michael for trying to pursue his rights. I am also quite saddened to see the lack of compassion against people with a mental illness on this discussion board.

VYBerlinaV8_the_one_they_all_copy said :

I think I once read that depression is a relatively modern illness. Apparently in ancient times people were so busy working to survive they didn’t have time to be depressed.

Not sure as to the correctness of this info, however.

Impossible to measure – there’s no forensic evidence and, as SheepGroper pointed out, there are alternate diagnoses: pining, broken heart, ennui, anomie, etc. That said, there does seem to be an increase in the incidence in high tech societies that exceeds simply enthusiastic diagnosis by doctors. I dunno – my office is a really toxic place because of off-gassing and whatnot and I didn’t evolve to do this, I evolved to hunt caribou with the tribe!

Beats chest, lights firestick in wastepaper basket.

VYBerlinaV8_the_one_they_all_copy said :

I think I once read that depression is a relatively modern illness. Apparently in ancient times people were so busy working to survive they didn’t have time to be depressed.

Not sure as to the correctness of this info, however.

If non-human animals can get depression, then I don’t see any reason why it wouldn’t have been around for humans long ago too. It was probably called something else, like pining, having a broken heart, or blamed on supernatural agents like curses or vampires.

I think I once read that depression is a relatively modern illness. Apparently in ancient times people were so busy working to survive they didn’t have time to be depressed.

Not sure as to the correctness of this info, however.

It was my understanding that mental illnesses could constitute a disability, at least for the purposes of claiming the disability pension.

Is this incorrect?

Die Lefty Scum said :

Depression is a very popular cop-out these days. This Firestone bloke needs a good elbow to the mouth.

almost as popular as “stress leave” funnmiest example I ever saw was a receptionist, who was paid to relax at home and de-stress for 2 months. how do i get diagnosed as being over stressed?

“The existing DDA definition already covers depression, addiction and obesity, as is noted in explanatory material and complaint reports available on HREOC’s website and (in the case of addiction) in Federal Court case law. (sub. 219, p. 6)”

Review of the Disability Discrimination Act 1992 (2003)
Productivity Commission

This is a useful link from HREOC: Who is protected by the DDA?

VYBerlinaV8_the_one_they_all_copy said :

Put him in a busy manual labouring job for a while. That will fix him up.

Exercise is proven to provide beneficial effects for those suffering depression, so it might actually do him the world of good.

Put him in a busy manual labouring job for a while. That will fix him up.

Depression is a very popular cop-out these days. This Firestone bloke needs a good elbow to the mouth.

BerraBoy68 said :

astrojax said :

everything but adelaide crows rate above collingwood, no..? [nrl aside, mai oui]

and agree, gobbo. an illness can be a disability, but depression isn’t such a malady.

From experience Depression can be actually quite debilitating, but is it a disability?. I wouldn’t like to think so but I do recall sitting for hours trying to make sense of my life, and life in general. I was literally unable to move or relate to others. It’s a terrible, terrible thing.

He’s probably claiming that, as an ailment that’s effecting his mental health, depression is, in effect, a form of disability (be it temporary or whatever).

Sounds like the guy’s real disability is that he’s a complete asshole.

He may be a nutcase, but the ANU’s recruitment techniques were very remiss in 2003. A friend of mine in an admin job in one of the research schools was handed the interview questions by the chair of her panel three days before! she took the opportunity … but it was rough on the other applicants, who were wasting their time.

This story has a Crazy Chester ring to it

indeed, it can be debilitating, but to class it with ms, lack of limbs, etc is a long shot…

oh, and sorry bundy, was just pleased the poise win bunted the crows out of the eight, so that must be true…

Now THAT is a troll!

Shhhhhh … you’ll scare away the fish!

astrojax said :

everything but adelaide crows rate above collingwood, no..? [nrl aside, mai oui]

and agree, gobbo. an illness can be a disability, but depression isn’t such a malady.

From experience Depression can be actually quite debilitating, but is it a disability?. I wouldn’t like to think so but I do recall sitting for hours trying to make sense of my life, and life in general. I was literally unable to move or relate to others. It’s a terrible, terrible thing.

Now THAT is a troll!

Can the bloke fix a leaking tap? Put in a power point, build a deck? Do a tax return? Change a tyre? Give head?

It’s a sad reality that plumbers, electricians, carpenters, book keepers, service station forecourt attendants and politicians are valued well and above their semi-skilled usefulness only because people with real knowledge and understanding value their own time too much to bother with picking up whatever few, mediocre skills these trades have to offer and instead prefer to get someone else to do this work at a nominal rate.

No Astro No, Bad Astro!

barking toad said :

Yeah, but what does a PhD in linguistics actually produce for the majority of us?

Can the bloke fix a leaking tap? Put in a power point, build a deck? Do a tax return? Change a tyre? Give head?

I’ll ask the lads at the pub on Friday night, but I don’t think documenting some obscure indigenous language will be high on the list. Some of them even struggle with Latin.

Ah, you and your mates at the pub can’t see the worth in something, therefore it MUST be valueless…. it couldn’t possibly be that in this vastly complicated world there are many things which may seem pointless to those who don’t understand them, and yet ultimately play an important role in the accumulation of the very large body of knowledge that is needed to keep improving our lives in a myriad of different ways?

everything but adelaide crows rate above collingwood, no..? [nrl aside, mai oui]

and agree, gobbo. an illness can be a disability, but depression isn’t such a malady.

Barking toad – you didn’t ask about about a “spotty sad linguist”, you asked about Linguistics and Linguistics PhDs.

Of course, your comments imply that you are a useful and productive member of society. And I’m not saying otherwise: but not everything we do has an immediate and tangible benefit to society. It’s the work of lots of areas that lead to advances or improvements.

Short-term thinking has its place, but on its own leads to Channel 10’s programming guide.

I’m feeling a bit blue – can I get a disabled parking label?

Pommy bastard said :

Depression is an illness, not a disability, surely?

Depression is NOT a disability. If it was there would be far more people on disability benefits. Many of my managers for a start.

The whole thing should have been knocked on its head back in 2003 on that basis.

I’ll cop 1,2 & 4.

But I think my King Island “talk” shouldn’t rate above Collingwood

Personally I would place documenting some obscure indigenous language above the following careers which contribute eff all to the advancement of our society in my opinion.

1. Rugby League player.

2. Rugby Union player.

3. AFL player.

4. Politician.

Karl Marx was handy for all! Couldn’t even win a lounge suite!

Equating people who actally achieve things to a spotty sad linguist is a stretch.

barking toad said :

Yeah, but what does a PhD in linguistics actually produce for the majority of us?

Naff all. If all there is in life is changing washers, fixing cars, etc. Most research disciplines don’t provide any immediate practical effects. So what? Tell Marie Curie, Karl Marx and Isaac Newton to stop messing with the glowing stuff, economics and apples – they’ll never lead to anything.

They are cunning, those linguists…

well done thumper. I was waiting for someone to say it.

VYBerlinaV8_the_one_they_all_copy said :

You think someone with advanced linguistics knowledge would understand when told to “f*** off”.

unless it was told in an undocumented language…

and ‘toad’ & ‘enlightenment’ in the same sentence? now that’s a job for a trained linguist to disentangle!

Yeah, but what does a PhD in linguistics actually produce for the majority of us?

Can the bloke fix a leaking tap? Put in a power point, build a deck? Do a tax return? Change a tyre? Give head?

I’ll ask the lads at the pub on Friday night, but I don’t think documenting some obscure indigenous language will be high on the list. Some of them even struggle with Latin.

1 part Noam Chomsky

1 part Steven Pinker

1 part linguistics

combine, google and become enlightened my dear toad at least for a while

barking toad said :

What exactly does a PhD in linguists contribute to society?

High-level research that can then be used in computer science. Being able to talk to machines or have them talk back to us. A mixed blessing, I agree… but serious research with a practical spin-off.

We mostly think in language: for the most part, adults can’t think much without words, so there’s something deeper here about human nature.

You think someone with advanced linguistics knowledge would understand when told to “f*** off”.

sepi said :

A PhD in linguistics enables someone to translate and document a previously unknown or undocumented language – in Australia we have plenty of Indigenous languages which are falling into disuse and could be very usefully documented.

Blam!

A PhD in linguistics enables someone to translate and document a previously unknown or undocumented language – in Australia we have plenty of Indigenous languages which are falling into disuse and could be very usefully documented.

Sad that this man fell into obsession about his court case instead of his studies.

Let’s never speak of this again.

Depression is an illness, not a disability, surely?

What exactly does a PhD in linguists contribute to society?

These perpetual students are a drain on it.

At least the ANU recognised this one. There’s plenty more on the payroll though.