Toot Toot! Greens promise light rail rollout by 2015

johnboy 30 August 2012 66

screenshot

Showing the other parties what policy development looks like the Greens have announced a plan for light rail as well as a handy summary:

The ACT Greens will:

— Commit to building light rail for Canberra
— $200 million initial Government funding committed to light rail;
— An ACT-wide light rail master plan, covering existing and developing areas;
— Construction on Canberra’s first light rail route beginning by 2015.

— Independently manage the project through the Canberra Urban Transit Authority, a new independent body to design, cost and manage funding and construction of light rail in Canberra.


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66 Responses to Toot Toot! Greens promise light rail rollout by 2015
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Kiron2222 Kiron2222 3:08 pm 04 Sep 12

It is good to see that good old Australian “Lets do nothing because mah roads and any other infrastructure spending is for stupid hipster innercity greenies” attitude is still alive and well.

Truthiness Truthiness 5:16 pm 02 Sep 12

each hour I spend on public transport is an hour not spent working or doing something I enjoy

Pork Hunt Pork Hunt 3:22 pm 02 Sep 12

Truthiness said :

I love the idea of public transport but I still don’t catch busses. At the moment it is cheaper and quicker to drive to work, if busses were free that removes one of the impediments but not the other.

it takes a bus an hour to do a trip that takes 15 minutes in a car, and that’s a hard one to change. Unfortunately this means it is still cheaper to drive thanks to lost time. Taking the bus would cost me an hour and a half each day, i cost $60p/h, so catching the bus would cost me $450 per week in lost billable hours. There is no way I am losing that kind of time or money for the opportunity to sit for prolonged periods in an uncomfortable box which is filled with cameras, harsh lights and people all staring. Action busses have all the style, comfort and atmosphere of a centerlink office.

Maybe if they had couches, coffee and wifi, but even then, that’s an awful lot of lost hours.

Which side of the counter at Centrelink are you referring to?

How does the time taken to commute (i.e. not at work) affect your paypacket?

Pandy Pandy 8:16 am 01 Sep 12

I love this comment from the ACT Light Rail web-site:

BullwitterAugust 18, 2012 8:48 AM
No matter how many buses and bus lanes we get, we will continue to demand light rail. If we get light rail, we won’t be demanding buses. Forget about the second best option and just go straight to light rail.

True colours shown

kakosi kakosi 12:46 am 01 Sep 12

watto23 said :

kakosi said :

Let’s see, light rail or a hospital system that has enough qualified doctors and nurses to cope with basic daily demands…I know which one I prefer and would vote for.

Yep i’d vote for a better health care, the problem is health and education are bottomless pits. How much money to you throw at these to improve them? Also it gets to a point where you need to throw significant amounts of money for minor improvements.

Its a rather simplistic view in my opinion, one that is used to argue against the NBN also and other infrastructure projects.

Trouble is that our hospitals cannot cope with normal demands right now…if you think they are a waste of money and we have the luxury of investing in wish lists like light rail instead, wait until you or someone you love has an accident or something else happens and you and find yourself waiting for hours in emergency or in a ward where the nurses are too busy to answer your buzzer. And God forbid anything happens on a weekend when the hospitals are on skeleton doctor crews.

Gungahlin Al Gungahlin Al 7:25 pm 31 Aug 12

watto23 said :

Currently Action say that the inter-city bus routes are the most popular and profitable (if that even occurs on any bus route). I can see no reason why if these were not replaced by light rail that was quicker than buses that usage wouldn’t in fact go up.

My concern though would be that any light rail network, will be like trams, stop at traffioc lights and defeat the purpose. Public transport needs to be faster and easier than using a car. Of all the people I know, the only reason most give for not catching public transport is it takes too long. Cost is rarely an issue, because to be honest a car costs more.

So a light rail proposal that cuts transit times between the cities would be a good thing. Although this could be done with buses, just bypass intersections/traffic lights etc.

The lights would be less of an issue than you may think. Once the crossover cycles are done, the through route is clear and the tram would quickly be up to speed and moving much faster than the traffic lanes.
But this depends on the rails being down the centre. If they were down the outside as per one of the options, then the side roads would present a lot of conflict points.
Same reason why the cycle lanes should be down the middle not outside.

dungfungus dungfungus 7:03 pm 31 Aug 12

sien said :

Any new transport plan should consider the enormous potential of self-driven vehicles. These are really coming. Have a look at reddit.com/r/self-driving cars and other places for a look at just how fast this technology is coming. Sebastiun Thrun, an expert in the technology and the guy behind the DARPA award winning car of a few years back thought you would be able to buy a self-driving car by about 2017.

If you could remove the cost of bus drivers from buses you could make public transport cheaper. You could in fact combine it with a taxi service or even just generally allow people to run self-driven cars/people movers and rent them out.

Even a well used car (i.e. driven to work every day) rarely does more than 1-2 hours per day. If you could share between just 2 commuters at different times you could save a huge amount.

Spending money on a fixed, immovable system like a tram would be very unwise right now. Still, it’s not going to happen because the Greens will not run the ACT and the ALP and Libs can do financial math and people like Tony check the Greens numbers.

Legislating to encourage self-driving vehicles would do a lot more for the ACT than trying to get in trams.

Your plan has logic; it’s a step up from the self ride bikes in Paris and other cities. The problem is that a lot of people (like me) can’t fit in most small/medium cars which would have to be an economic imperative for such a proposal. A “one size fits all” standard will eliminate a lot of potential users.
Anyone who has worked in the self-drive hire care industry would see a proposal like yours fraught with problems.

Jethro Jethro 5:51 pm 31 Aug 12

c_c said :

Has anyone seen an actual, independent business case for light rail in the ACT?

I can’t see it working with the current population. The buses, which have comparatively low initial capital expenditure, make a significant loss, so when will the ACT make it’s money back? Will it ever, or will it continue to be an expensive burden just like the Sydney Monorail is… was?

That’s the big issue isn’t it. Canberra is low density and low population… exactly the wrong conditions to support good public transport. It’s a difficult city to make environmentally friendly in terms of transport options. The best bet is to continue decentralising government offices by spreading them around the city as much as possible, put systems in place to encourage car pooling, focus on improving efficiencies in the bus system and continue improving on our already pretty good bicycle infrastructure.

A light rail sounds good, but doesn’t suit our population size or density.

Truthiness Truthiness 5:15 pm 31 Aug 12

I love the idea of public transport but I still don’t catch busses. At the moment it is cheaper and quicker to drive to work, if busses were free that removes one of the impediments but not the other.

it takes a bus an hour to do a trip that takes 15 minutes in a car, and that’s a hard one to change. Unfortunately this means it is still cheaper to drive thanks to lost time. Taking the bus would cost me an hour and a half each day, i cost $60p/h, so catching the bus would cost me $450 per week in lost billable hours. There is no way I am losing that kind of time or money for the opportunity to sit for prolonged periods in an uncomfortable box which is filled with cameras, harsh lights and people all staring. Action busses have all the style, comfort and atmosphere of a centerlink office.

Maybe if they had couches, coffee and wifi, but even then, that’s an awful lot of lost hours.

sien sien 4:54 pm 31 Aug 12

Any new transport plan should consider the enormous potential of self-driven vehicles. These are really coming. Have a look at reddit.com/r/self-driving cars and other places for a look at just how fast this technology is coming. Sebastiun Thrun, an expert in the technology and the guy behind the DARPA award winning car of a few years back thought you would be able to buy a self-driving car by about 2017.

If you could remove the cost of bus drivers from buses you could make public transport cheaper. You could in fact combine it with a taxi service or even just generally allow people to run self-driven cars/people movers and rent them out.

Even a well used car (i.e. driven to work every day) rarely does more than 1-2 hours per day. If you could share between just 2 commuters at different times you could save a huge amount.

Spending money on a fixed, immovable system like a tram would be very unwise right now. Still, it’s not going to happen because the Greens will not run the ACT and the ALP and Libs can do financial math and people like Tony check the Greens numbers.

Legislating to encourage self-driving vehicles would do a lot more for the ACT than trying to get in trams.

Truthiness Truthiness 4:34 pm 31 Aug 12

hahaha look at all the “economic rationalists” forgetting that money is printed out of nothing and the entire world is up to its eyeballs in debt already. There are plenty of banks who’d love to see the ACT government indentured to the tune of billions. I say we borrow the money and never pay it back, seems to be working for the rest of the world!

But seriously, since when have government budgets, of any political affiliation, had any relationship to the real world? Labs and Libs have always done dodgy costings, and now you’re calling it a green trait?

We all know how politicians work, that 200 million is probably just the cost of setting up an exploratory committee to investigate the feasability of a future review and assessment process.

I’m just hoping the light rail will be driverless and free to use, otherwise they’ll be as expensive and underused as the busses.

Pandy Pandy 4:11 pm 31 Aug 12

dungfungus said :

Pandy said :

dungfungus said :

Pandy said :

dungfungus said :

imagine a tram service Bungendore to Kingston return and the pressure it would take off the Kings Highway. ..

I have: What pressure???The Railway Preservation Society have railcars, why don’t they run a commuter rail from Bugendore to Kingston?
?

Trying to have a serious discussion here. ABC 3 may be more suited to you.

Toot!

You know what can not be accepted here?

If a group of enthusiasts cannot make this commuter train of yours work at a profit, what chance is there for there for a brand spanking new battery one with paid drivers?

You have answered your own question by comparing enthusiasts with businessmen.
I used to be a bank manager and regularly had to sort out the enthusiasts from the entrepreneurs. An example would be someone who had just acquired a pilot’s license and wanted a loan to buy an aircraft to start an airline because he “loved flying”. This person was an enthusiast and the loan application would be declined.
On the other hand, if a someone who was not a pilot and had a plan to acquire an interest in an airline as a business opportunity to make money, his application would be considered favourably. This person was a businessman.
I have travelled on a Railway Preservation Society’s live steam excursions to Bungendore and it is just an “excursion”; nothing more, nothing less. To compare this to a modern tram on a scheduled commuter service is a folly as I am sure you realize. You are the one that needs to “accept” this.

You have answered your own question here: no business would be able to make money on a short haul boutique rail car service between Bugendore and Kingston.

Holden Caulfield Holden Caulfield 2:32 pm 31 Aug 12

watto23 said :

Holden Caulfield said :

If you made all fares on ACTION buses free and increased the frequency of services, even if buses were empty, would that have a greater effect on getting people out of cars for their daily commute than sinking millions/billions into light rail, while still also operating the existing bus service?

I can’t see how this would increase patronage. OK if it was free how many people would seriously give up the convenience of their cars? Especially when buses are cheaper now.

Frequency of services would do stuff all if it takes too long to get to your house. If a trip takes me an hour i couldn’t care less whether it leaves every 15 or 30 minutes, when it will take me an hour to get home.

I wouldn’t give up my car either, but don’t all the same issues you’ve raised there apply equally to light rail?

dungfungus dungfungus 2:13 pm 31 Aug 12

Pandy said :

dungfungus said :

Pandy said :

dungfungus said :

imagine a tram service Bungendore to Kingston return and the pressure it would take off the Kings Highway. ..

I have: What pressure???The Railway Preservation Society have railcars, why don’t they run a commuter rail from Bugendore to Kingston?
?

Trying to have a serious discussion here. ABC 3 may be more suited to you.

Toot!

You know what can not be accepted here?

If a group of enthusiasts cannot make this commuter train of yours work at a profit, what chance is there for there for a brand spanking new battery one with paid drivers?

You have answered your own question by comparing enthusiasts with businessmen.
I used to be a bank manager and regularly had to sort out the enthusiasts from the entrepreneurs. An example would be someone who had just acquired a pilot’s license and wanted a loan to buy an aircraft to start an airline because he “loved flying”. This person was an enthusiast and the loan application would be declined.
On the other hand, if a someone who was not a pilot and had a plan to acquire an interest in an airline as a business opportunity to make money, his application would be considered favourably. This person was a businessman.
I have travelled on a Railway Preservation Society’s live steam excursions to Bungendore and it is just an “excursion”; nothing more, nothing less. To compare this to a modern tram on a scheduled commuter service is a folly as I am sure you realize. You are the one that needs to “accept” this.

watto23 watto23 1:52 pm 31 Aug 12

Holden Caulfield said :

If you made all fares on ACTION buses free and increased the frequency of services, even if buses were empty, would that have a greater effect on getting people out of cars for their daily commute than sinking millions/billions into light rail, while still also operating the existing bus service?

I can’t see how this would increase patronage. OK if it was free how many people would seriously give up the convenience of their cars? Especially when buses are cheaper now.

Frequency of services would do stuff all if it takes too long to get to your house. If a trip takes me an hour i couldn’t care less whether it leaves every 15 or 30 minutes, when it will take me an hour to get home.

Pandy Pandy 12:40 pm 31 Aug 12

dungfungus said :

Pandy said :

dungfungus said :

imagine a tram service Bungendore to Kingston return and the pressure it would take off the Kings Highway. ..

I have: What pressure???The Railway Preservation Society have railcars, why don’t they run a commuter rail from Bugendore to Kingston?
?

Trying to have a serious discussion here. ABC 3 may be more suited to you.

Toot!

You know what can not be accepted here?

If a group of enthusiasts cannot make this commuter train of yours work at a profit, what chance is there for there for a brand spanking new battery one with paid drivers?

dungfungus dungfungus 12:08 pm 31 Aug 12

Pandy said :

dungfungus said :

imagine a tram service Bungendore to Kingston return and the pressure it would take off the Kings Highway. ..

I have: What pressure???The Railway Preservation Society have railcars, why don’t they run a commuter rail from Bugendore to Kingston?
?

Trying to have a serious discussion here. ABC 3 may be more suited to you.

Holden Caulfield Holden Caulfield 12:00 pm 31 Aug 12

If you made all fares on ACTION buses free and increased the frequency of services, even if buses were empty, would that have a greater effect on getting people out of cars for their daily commute than sinking millions/billions into light rail, while still also operating the existing bus service?

Chop71 Chop71 11:51 am 31 Aug 12

kakosi said :

Let’s see, light rail or a hospital system that has enough qualified doctors and nurses to cope with basic daily demands…I know which one I prefer and would vote for.

agree.

I’d prefer a doc to see me in a reasonable waiting time without having to lie about it to make the figures look good.

Pandy Pandy 11:43 am 31 Aug 12

dungfungus said :

imagine a tram service Bungendore to Kingston return and the pressure it would take off the Kings Highway. ..

I have: What pressure???The Railway Preservation Society have railcars, why don’t they run a commuter rail from Bugendore to Kingston?
?

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