White-collar, middle-class snobbery?

“We have had JWH chucking cash at the non-govt sector for ten years.” Miz – I think that it’s a bit rich to try and criticise the Howard Government for funding choice in education – especially given that the Commonwealth (on both sides) has been making resources available to non-government schools for a lot longer than 10 years.

Publius, your experiences must be from quite a few years ago as there are no pupil free days in the ACT and have not been for years.

My experience is that almost all the teachers I have come across (in the public system) are very vocational about their job. Also my sister is a high school teacher here in the ACT, and I assure you she often gets no lunch break as she is immersed in extra-curricular activities. While she gets home to her children earlier than 5 if she can – many parents choose the profession because of this – she has hours of work at night and on weekends doing marking/class prep. She loves her job. She deserves to be paid properly and not have the govt bitching and moaning about what should be a simple CPI increase.

As for ‘second-rate degrees’, I understand that the public system requires a four-year degree unlike the private system where three years is acceptable. This may be the Catholic system, perhaps Nyssa you are more across this aspect?

Clearly everything Publius is criticising (meeting presentations and handouts, jeans (!), shiny shoes (!), discipline issues) comes down to marketing. We have had JWH chucking cash at the non-govt sector for ten years. It’s hard for public schools to market themselves when their every cent is accounted for and must be seen to be for educational purposes. (They cannot afford to hire a marketing firm, for example). Parents ALL want the best for their children and naturally they want to go where the resources are perceived to be.

If Govt schools were funded properly this whole issue would be irrelevant. PS Voluntary contributions are VOLUNTARY . . . and there is a school of thought (I am not saying I agree totally but I can see the point) that says that if nobody paid the contributions, governments (both State and Fed) would get a true indication of what they Really should be spending on educating their most valuable ‘resource’ – children.

Closing the preschools which are not that expensive to run is a real backward step.
From the wellbeing manifesto:
“The manifesto states that each dollar invested in early-childhood education and care, saves up to seven dollars by avoiding costs associated with crime, unemployment, remedial education and welfare payments.”

Nyssa 76 – whether you like it or not, you can count on one hand the number of your colleagues on deck at 5.00pm at schools. That is a fact. By the way, many of us hold jobs that require finishing well after 5.00pm to keep up with things (sure it comes with the money and the responsibility) and the odd hour or two I might add on weekends. But I’m not playing a violin about that. It is my choice.

Now the appearance of teachers (jeans or not) may not matter to you – fine. Guess what? – it does to others. If that’s a bit old fashioned, fine mea culpa. It does matter to many parents and it does represent an image – rightly or wrongly – to students. I don’t think jeans affect the ability to teach. Actually I didn’t say that. But as with every job, whether you like it or not, appearance matters.

Finally I used to hear the rubbish spoken about hours worked when I was a university lecturer teaching graduates (I had a contract as I had a full time job elsewhere). Most of my colleagues were never seen on Fridays (scarce on Mondays too). Some of the slackest had tenure and never got their essays marked on time and basically lorded it over the students. But that tertiary sector – as Dawkins attempted in the 1980s – is badly in need of a shake up.

The reason why the private school system is expanding and the public school system shrinking is because of choices being made by parents.

CAF – your choice was right for you because it worked out for you. Good on you.

The public school system is doomed unless an attempt is made to address fundamental issues. Sorry Nyssa76 but that is the cold hard reality. The people are voting with their feet so to speak. Stanhope and his team are not addressing the demise of the public school system. Closing 39 schools is not a positive signal for that sector. The unions going on strike is not a good signal to the community either. Things must change.

I looked at starting at a “rather expensive grammar school” in high school, but instead stayed in the public system. Now in my mid 20s, I’m able to look back and say that I made the right choice. My experience is that with both the public and private systems, students get out what they’re prepared to put in. It’s possible to do just as poorly or well in either system.

“Male teachers wear jeans”?? WTF?

So what does that have to do with their ability to teach?

“We would hear from some of the primary school teachers we got to know how they work late at night at home marking papers/homework. The fact is most of them had left the school by 4.00-4.15pm. That is their choice. Perhaps it suits their lifestyles or their situation with their own children. The truth is if they stayed at school until 5pm (or later) and did that part of their task they wouldn’t need to take work home and start working after dinner.”

I leave at 5pm. I STILL have marking etc to do. Perhaps it has to do with the fact that I have 7 classes. I like to be 100% prepared for each lesson, so by doing so, at night in the peace and quiet when my children are in bed, I am basically being considered “lazy” (my inference).

I know teachers who have PhDs in the Govt system. I know teachers who have PhDs in the Non-Govt system.

I also know which ones get the best out of the students – and it’s a mix from both systems.

But, I would like to thank you. You’ve made my decision to go back to the Govt system (after a year off) easier. I’ll be going back. It seems that the Govt system is so desperate for teachers that it will even allow it’s staff to wear jeans and leave at 4-4:15pm, unlike the Non-Govt system which enforces morning meetings and even a colour code for your hair when you have it done.

Don’t get me wrong, I love both systems, but if publius is the calibre of parent now in the Non-Govt system, I’m right in that the Govt system is the place to go.

FYI, the EBA is every 3 years. Teachers didn’t go on strike (again) until 2002/2003. They hadn’t gone on strike for several years prior.

Perhaps your son’s primary teachers were 1) sick, 2) on PD or 3) on Long service leave. Then there is always the 4th option (mainly for older teachers who have a shit load of leave up) of taking a “personal” day/week/month.

Our son is now at a private school. We made that choice for his high school years and because we were appalled at the quality of primary school teaching at an inner south primary school(near Parliament House). Some teachers had been at that public school for many years. You could tell they paid lip service to any discussions with parents. They wre set in their ways. Many were quite radical and that was reflected in some of the things said/done in the classroom. They were regularly on strike (something seemed to happen every two years or so). It was considered a particularly attractive primary school (for teachers and students). We lived in the suburb and wanted our son to go to his local school. We turned up at the parent teacher night at the beginning of the school year (whole school in the assembly hall). There had been no classes- teachers had been at the pupil free day. This was before the school year commenced. No papers were ready for circulation at the meeting that evening (that occurred during the meeting). The teacher who addressed parents couldn’t string a sentence together. They made it up as they went along. Our son stayed at that local public school for his primary schooling years (we wanted him to stay with his friends). Many of the male teachers wore jeans. We were also amazed at the number of parents who refused to pay a “voluntary” contribution. Troubled kids (read out of control) remained in the school constantly disrupting classes. We would hear from some of the primary school teachers we got to know how they work late at night at home marking papers/homework. The fact is most of them had left the school by 4.00-4.15pm. That is their choice. Perhaps it suits their lifestyles or their situation with their own children. The truth is if they stayed at school until 5pm (or later) and did that part of their task they wouldn’t need to take work home and start working after dinner. By the way I have worked as a Lecturer at one of the local universities. I am familar with aspects of teaching. What do we get at the rather expensive grammar school our son attends? Firstly the teachers have excellent qualifications (quite a few PhDs, many with Hons). I acknowledge that doesn’t necessarily make for good teachers. The teachers dress well. They speak well. They are paid well. They are happy to be there and it shows. They put in extra time with sport and events. There is even some semblance of that word many in the community hate – discipline. But there is pride in the school by those who attend and those who work there. The school emphasises a set of values. Yes – my son has to attend chapel for a short time every week (and I’m glad he does). Students are regularly expelled if they continue to make problems. Issues are dealt with straight away with parents. Students are required to wear their uniform and have clean shoes(there is an area provided for them to clean them). So what is my point? Paying public school teachers more won’t (of itself) make for a better school system. However, combined with other MAJOR much needed reforms, it would. Firstly we should increase the “score” needed to be a teacher. The standard for entry to a teaching course these days is pretty low. It was once a prestigious job and hard to get into. It isn’t any more. There should be more scholarships (to the best high school students). Currently we have too many teachers who have second rate first degrees from second rate Dawkins universities. We should pay many teachers (but not all) a whole lot more. There needs to be a regular performance assessment made of teachers that is fair dinkum. Other things also need to change before there is a major increase in pay. That includes looking at the holiday system for teachers and hours worked at schools. Introduce genuine standards and reforms into the public school system and you can pay good teachers a whole lot more. We’d all accept that. Without these sorts of changes I outlined, the public school system will limp along and there will be a continuing flow of students to private schools.

His band-aid policy coupled with a pathetic offer of the EBA is the reason why teachers are striking.

Last EBA the Govt had the AEU’s offer for almost 6 months before anything was offered by the Govt.

This EBA, they had had it for over 4 months.

So in reality, the Govt is the taking it’s sweet time when both times the AEU has adhered to the guidelines of the previous EBAs.

Again, I don’t believe in striking, but when the “employer” fails to adhere to a timeline they agreed to 3yrs before, excuse me for taking offence at his piss-weak statement.

In specific context – he doesn’t give a shit about the strikes.

Why should he have to specifically care about whether or not teachers are choosing to strike? Yes, he could say the usual weasel words like “I think it’s unwise and damaging thier own cause and la de da de da”, or he could be honest and say “well, it’s mildly annoying, but really, who cares”.

No it means he doesn’t give a shit.

As education minister he should. Of course it doesn’t impact on him – he has no children and most likely never will.

Look at your own quote, he said “it has zero impact on me” which as I read it means “it’s not going to make me change my mind”.

simto, I should have been more clearer. I was referring to his “it has zero to do with me” – the last part of his “quote”.

How it has zero to do with him is ridiculous. Perhaps he shouldn’t be the Education Minister then.

I must also remind you that I don’t strike and don’t agree with strike action.

If Barr wants to piss off teachers, then by all means follow Chief Numpty with stupid statements like that.

If he thinks that lay people can do the job, he can take a look at how things turned out in the UK when they tried it.

Funny how they are taking Aussie teachers now and can’t get enough of them.

Did anyone see the cartoon in the Australian yesterday? It speaks volumes.

Says something when schoolteachers won’t have their kids going to a public school. Perhaps it is saying that public schools suck. I’m not sure, I don’t have any kids that go to school yet.

My wife works her arse off in the public system.

To pay for our kids to be in the private system.

Nyssa, Barr’s quote does suggest that he’s actually capable of negotiating. What do you really expect him to say “yes, gosh, I’m so scared of Teacher’s strikes, I’m going to change my mind on everything immediately”?

It’s not snobbery, it’s common sense. Something that’s lacking in a lot of this debate…

Believe it or not, I’m a supporter of public education too. I just believe that it can be delivered better at a smaller number of sites.

Trouble is, Al, that the less money you have, the more the Govt (especially this Fed one) is in your face telling you to jump through this and that hoop to prove you are deserving. Lucky you, not to have known this.

Governments should be looking to provide, not a second-rate crapola ‘safety net’, but universal education par excellence to maximise the potential of all of its electorate. Not just the monied ones. ACT ed has allowed its excellence to drift somewhat (post-self-government) but it is still middling excellent, not something you ‘inflict’ on a child!

PS Choosing a public service (eg public hospital, school or water provider) does not make a person a ‘pinko’ – just community-minded with a sense of the greater good, as opposed to the I’m alright Jack philosophy.

Nah … it really is as simple as believing that government has a genuine responsibility to have as small a role as it can possibly manage in peoples lives. In holding to that ideal – I too have a responsibility to ask as little as I possibly can from the Government.

I would actually argue that there is a perverse form of reverse snobbery alive in Canberra. Many of the pinko muppets you come across almost revel in the fact that they have inflicted a state school education on their kids as if it was some badge of honour. Now, don’t get me wrong, as a safety-net, state schools are on the money, even if you’re doing ok they’re not bad – after all, a good education is great – if that’s all you can manage.

Big Al I am not trying to represent you at all, you yourself said that most of the shift to the private sector was to smaller schools.

While there are many reasons for families choosing private over public, often rather superficial like ‘they have nice uniforms’, anecdotally most would be partly influenced by the perception of the $$ being poured into the private system by the Feds and also a sense that one must pay through the nose to get something of value. Personally though I suspect (I hardly dare say this) there is an element of not wanting one’s little darlings to associate with the local povvies at one’s children’s school.

Of course it is not socially acceptable to be a snob in a town dominated by government policies that give lipservice to equal opportunity, but one can justify it by saying one is exercising one’s right to choose.

“All industrial action does is cost teachers money and disrupt parents and students,” he said. “It has zero impact on me.” (Andrew Barr)

Said quote from today’s CT.

The Chief Numpty should be looking in his own backyard re: snobs. He’s got them in spades…

Simto, Big Al might have had a point if his numbers weren’t wrong.

According to the Department of Education as of February 2006 there were 35141 students in 91 Government Schools (Primary to College, and I have not counted the 4 special schools or their students).

There were 24679 attending 44 Non-government schools. So the non-govt sector caters for 2/3 of the students that the govt sector does, but they have around half the physical buildings.

When Big Al referred to “180 odd” locations across the territory he has included preschools. This is misleading, as preschools running costs are born by parent fund-raising. In any case, even the preschool association has conceded there is no point opposing the preschool closures, they are pretty much inevitable.

The Government sector has many more locations than the private sector, and so it should! This is the universal service that the Government provides. There are probably too many sites, but the Government have not done a proper analysis of the whole cost of school closures.

Simto, you said “Does having schools in a wide variety of locations really benefit every Canberran? Nope, of course it doesn’t.”

I wouldn’t be too hasty! Making school inaccessible by foot and/or bike will increase road congestion. Walking to school develops good exercise habits. Obesity and diabetes are huge health costs and increasing all the time. This is a cost that will be bourne by the community.

If these schools close the Government is planning to sell the land, and maybe the adjacent playing fields. I know the Belnorth Soccer club is very worried about the plan to close Giralang Primary and Preschool, as they make heavy use of the adjacent ovals.

Miz when you say “…Big Al you have just endorsed what public school parents know – and that is that smaller schools (albeit public or the smaller Christian ones or whatever) are way more effective than the larger ones.” I suspect that you are seeking to misrepresent me.

You’re suggesting that parents and students are acting on a preference based on student body size – I don’t doubt that some would but the bleed rate from the private sectors seems to suggest it might be more about getting an education anywhere but the public system. You’d also imagine that if school size was a draw card some of these half empty schools might be getting a tad more enrolment interest.

ACT parents are fleeing the public system in favour of a private education at a rate of around 2-2.5% the student population each year (that’s as good as 10% of the student population every 10 years). Whilst there’s probably some churn in the public system – with parents electing to move kids around between public schools or choosing an out of area school – this wouldn’t be reflected in the overall shift between sectors.

The established private schools aren’t massively expanding to meet this demand – choosing instead a recruitment strategy centred on long day care and pre-school – I guess a kind of nappies to HSC approach. So the rest of the students are heading to what at this stage at least are small private providers. If the current trend continues around 50% of ACT students will be privately educated by 2010 so schools like Burgman Anglican School will have to grow or similar schools will have to open.

Big Al did actually have a point in there, amidst the drunken ramblings.

Private schools teach about 2/3 the numbers that the public sector does. However, they have around 1/4 of the physical buildings.

So, since they’re not spending so much having to maintain so many separate physical sites, they can deliver better quality outcomes at a smaller number of locations.

Saving schools in as many areas as possible sounds like a worthy goal, but it means that money isn’t going into the schools in other ways (as noted by the labour government, and not contested by anyone, this is pretty much revenue neutral).

It’s simple maths. Does having schools in a wide variety of locations really benefit every Canberran? Nope, of course it doesn’t.

Oh, vg, I could name her – but I’d have to seek permission. Have i hit a raw nerve re Radford? Sorry, I thought it was funny – a confluence of Deakin snobs and Belconnen dunrealgoods – nuffink to do with my values or experience!!
I-filed

Actually Big Al you have just endorsed what public school parents know – and that is that smaller schools (albeit public or the smaller Christian ones or whatever) are way more effective than the larger ones.

Unfortunately the current ALP see short-term ‘economies of scale’ and not the longer term ‘diseconomies of scale’ (more drop outs, higher security costs etc).

Parents hate big schools and will just turn away even more. Der. It will become a blatant two-tier system. I so wish I had not voted this bunch in – and I think the govt calling others ‘snob’ is the pot calling the kettle black. They have really got the superiors on this whole topic, and the alleged consult is just one big attempt to try and ‘make us all see sense – their way’. How arrogant. Greens, Indies, you better Be There next election.

go to any decent newsagent and check out the number of magazines devoted to schools, education and the like – there’s a plethora of sources ranging from stuff that’s little more than ‘advertorial’ through to considered comparative assessments.

Big Al, when you have a looksie again, could you check to see how many were actually written by people with a Ba in Education. I’m curious is all.

As for private being better…I went to Govt schools – high and primary.

I have 3 degrees. So what? A person I work with also has 3 degrees and she went to private school her entire life.

What you make out of your life is all up to you.

Some Non-Govt schools aren’t the best and some Govt schools are.

The P&C are a voice for the parents who choose to send their children to the Govt system. The Non-Govt system has the P&F (F = friends).

Chief Numpty hasn’t got a clue about how 2020 will affect parents or students or teachers.

If he truly wanted to save money he should be cutting things out which don’t benefit every Canberran and keep the ones that do.

Whilst some people say “I don’t have kids, why should I care/pay”. Simple – those kids you don’t care about or want to pay for with your taxes will pay for your hospital needs etc when you are no longer working.

Personally, I’d want people from all sections of life with Govt and Non-Govt education doing that when I turn 60 – in 30yrs time.

I don’t want an “old boys” or “old girls” group who does that with no thought as to how those from the lower socio-economic end of the pole live.

Just because some parents are willing to sacrifice their time and money for a “good” education, doesn’t mean that it will come from a Non-Govt school. Nor does it mean that it will come from a Govt school.

However, in Govt schools you have kids from all areas of the socio-economic spectrum and family structures. You can’t say that about certain Non-Govt schools in the ACT.

A cousin of my best friend’s mothers auntie told me that her sister’s father in law knew heard the same thing

A friend of mine who went to CCEGGS told me Radford College was started by the Anglican church to ‘keep the Belconnen girls away from Girls Grammar!!!

The so called class divide that allegedly separates the private and public education camps is essentially a myth invented and perpetuated by the Marxist left to assist with their grubby agenda.

The muppet brigade would have us believe that it’s the big ‘glamour’ private schools that are sucking the life out of the public system – whilst enrollments at your traditional ivy and sandstone schools remain strong, the harsh reality is that the fastest growing sector in private education continues to be small, low fee, Christian centered schools that are 20 years old or less. This is where the vast majority of kids that are leaving the public system are ending up – A local ACT example would be Burgman Anglican School. These schools are attracting parents and students seeking to escape the values free, morally neutral content offered in the Government system.

Add to that the fact that ten years or more of strong economic growth has provided families with the financial resources to start making real choices about things like education – because it is a considerable investment it would be safe to assume that the vast majority of people who choose a private education for their children are not making the decision uninformed: go to any decent newsagent and check out the number of magazines devoted to schools, education and the like – there’s a plethora of sources ranging from stuff that’s little more than ‘advertorial’ through to considered comparative assessments.

But all this digresses from the fundamentals of this thread – the fact that Stanhope has called a spade a spade when it comes to P&C groups. These people have to decide whether they wish to lead, follow or get out of the way. Whining about the drag-way isn’t going to solve the problem – just make them less relevant. Does anyone really think that a Labor government would choose school closures above any range of other more palatable options?

Point #1. Yes, plenty from a ‘non-working’ background. Mind you I wasn’t that materialistic that I went around checking the job and income of my schoolmates.

Secondly, my parents don’t measure me or the rest of my family by the quality of mine or my friends employ, or the money in our respective pockets. They are a little above that sort of thing.

I got the job I wanted and had a ball at school, thats all I was concerned with. The opportunities I had through my private schooling was beneficial, and the guvvy school mates got places through hard work.

You are a simplistic person if your measurement of class and personal worth, schooling included, is obsessively financially based. I still stand by the abject shit comment.

Get back to Trotsky 101 for your issues of class. In this country there’s only 2, bogans and non-bogans. The bogans in this nation are in the majority

vg was there anyone from a non working family at your ‘better’ school?
I hope your parents don’t regret going without, seeing as how the ‘better’ education didn’t lead to better jobs for you and yoru friends.

“Big Al – private school students can generally afford to travel further – their parents having 2 cars, money for bus passes etc. In a way, by sending your kids to private school you are undermining the public system and contributing to a growing class divide.”

What a load of abject shit. My parents on one income missed out on an enormous amount of things to give myself and brothers the educattion they thought best, which happened to be private schools. God forbid people should aspire to what they see as better for their kids

As for a growing class divide, just as many of my private classmates are doctors, solicitors, mechanics, pubes, unemployed as friends who went to guvvy schools.

I’m assuming that was another Friday arvo wind up. If not you are even more pissed than Al

You tell it like you see it nnyssa – people will pay good money for that kind of advice.

I dont agree – the State & Territory Governments will (that sould probably be “should”) always have a role in education – the hard work will be in forcing them to keep up spending as students shift between the public and private sector rather than taking the savings – achieve that and the rewards will follow.

Actually seepi does have a point.

The more parents send their children to private schools, the less the numbers in public schools.

2020 will maintain a steady decline in public schools and by 2020 there might not be enough numbers to have one school open in each area.

By 2020 I could be out of a job Big Al (unless I stay in the private system), so I’ll keep an eye out.

Nyssa, the corporate lunch continues to be a powerful relationship management tool and I won’t apologise for it. Sometimes the people you lunch with are fun and the afternoon is thoroughly enjoyable, more often than not they aren’t and it isn’t – swings and roundabouts really and in the end its about keeping clients happy and securing business.

In terms of what I do – my business provides a range of services to the government and the private sector with interests in environment, resource management and construction – we generally employ people with engineering, science, law and media backgrounds but there’s no strict eligibility criteria so if you see a role for yourself in that business environment let me know.

Seepi that’s utter bullshit – in fact I couldn’t even be arsed responding to that.

Big Al – private school students can generally afford to travel further – their parents having 2 cars, money for bus passes etc. In a way, by sending your kids to private school you are undermining the public system and contributing to a growing class divide.

How much work can you get done when your pissed? Meaningful employment? Hell, what profession are you in Big Al, so I can change and spend my long lunchtimes getting pissed and having no responsibility for minors (which allows me to get pissed).

Still, 2-3hrs for lunch is a hell of a lot better than 30min (not that I get to eat, drink or go to the bathroom).

Before you blast teachers as being “watermelon shit-bags” and the like, take a walk in their shoes.

Nyssa, I didn’t say I wasn’t working – two bottles of wine over a lunch that extends for three hours can, and often does, mean ongoing, meaningful employment for half a dozen people.

I can only imagine that if you’re having trouble with getting more than a couple of hours break at lunch

Try telling that to the parents that call me in my 30 min lunch break or the students who want to “just talk” about the assignment I gave them not even 20 mins before and explained with several examples etc.

Or the useless bloody paperwork that I have to fill out or the replies to questions re: students.

30 mins is all I get. Then there’s the added duty at lunch once a week (if I’m lucky because sometimes it’s 3 times).

I spend my time at work working, marking and generally dealing with students who most people wouldn’t want to even walk past – be it Non-Govt or Govt.

So when you have a nice 1-2, possibly 3hr lunch, have another glass of red for me.

I don’t get lunch, nor a drink at lunch, nor time to sit and just do nothing at lunch.

*rant over*

Stanhope is a classic “divider” in politics. He tries to set one element/strata of society against another. We don’t need his undergraduate Sociology 101 class analysis. He should keep his vituperative comments to himself and show some leadership. I don’t agree with a dragway (so I am one of his white middle class snobs) but the fact is he did actually promise a dragway back in 2001 and then in 2004. His government seems reluctant to actually DO something. He attacked Carnell incessantly about Bruce Stadium (by the way now an extremely valuable asset). Stanhope and his team hide behind reports, reviews, & impact assessments to delay doing anything (ask Gungahlin residents about how long it has taken to get a road underway!). The community would respect him more if he showed some ticker and put schools and local communities ahead of a five star resort prison, an arboretum , or a silly express bus lane from Belconnen.

Special G … great to see that you have somthing sensible to add to the debate … good for you, I bet you’re parents are proud.

But on the issue of living in a sheltered world I can only offer this – some of us choose how we live our lives – others are told. I’m one of the former. I can only imagine that if you’re having trouble with getting more than a couple of hours break at lunch then I suggest it’s you, rather than I who should be seeking to extract their head from their bum.

Big Al, you must be that 10% that go to work pissed. Pull your head out of your arse – nice work Nyssa I thought I was one of the only ones that said that.

Big Al – you obviously have absolutly no idea of what kind of shit teachers have to deal with on a daily basis. Go back and live in your sheltered little world that never has to deal with any sort of issue other than how many bottles of red do I drink over my extended lunch. I’d love to even get a lunch break that couldn’t be interupted.

I heard Stanhope’s defence of the dragway vs schools spending and thought immediately that his last vestiges of any grip on reality had deserted him.

Ok so lunch stretched out to a second bottle of red and I had a good head of steam up but the underlying issues are unchanged.

The Government delivers education to 59% of the total student population from 180-odd locations across the Territory, on the other hand the private sector, and I guess that includes the (pretend private) Catholic schools, delivers the other 41% from 40 locations. You sure as hell don’t have to be a Rhodes Scholar to understand the math here. The P&Cs are, unfortunately, overburdened with ignorant dip-shits for whom change is the equivalent of the sky falling in. They might be ok at organizing a lamington drive, but they sure as hell know fuck all about what’s going to stem the bleeding of students to the private sector – a tide that, if it follows the current trend, will make publicly educated kids a minority by 2010 and effectively irrelevant by 2020.

The drag way is a lame-arsed soft target, and yes it’s absolutely middle class snobbery to selectively target government expenditure there. An $8m expenditure is small change and does nothing to change the fact that the public education system is fundamentally broken, by equating the drag way with the salvation of public education you cheapen your argument Nyssa, because its not about money – any bunch of pinko-shitbags could pour money into the education system and it still wouldn’t fix the fact that its fundamentally broken.

For the record, yes I choose to educate my children in the private system. It is in keeping with my view that Government must to the greatest extent possible be a small as possible, and that individuals should take responsibility for as much as they can possibly manage.

I hold no animosity at all against public education – the P&Cs on the other hand are open game because they consistently want to be part of the problem and refuse to participate in the solution.

…and no I’m not a hard man vg, actually a bit cuddly really – although I’ll give it both barrels on a Friday arvo after morning off and boozy lunch.

Big Al you sound like a hard man.

Are you a hard man?

I don’t think the point is really “lets get rid of all public schools” rather lets make public schools as best as we can. If we have too much infrastructure for the number of students we have something has to give.

The dragway lobbyists are just a distraction. Again the Fed govt took their play toy away and they want the ACT Govt to give it back. As a community I suspect we can do without it, but we can’t afford to have a public school system in decline for all the reasons people know.

The “don’t take mine away” crowd are probably NIMBY’s as well. Sure Stanhope really has botched the whole process but I suspect there are too many vocal lobby groups in this town to ever make having a real debate a problem.

Do we want a decent public school system?

If yes, what can we do about it?

Running around saying my school is needed lets keep them all open and let them run down till there are no students is not exactly in keeping with that. Maybe the private schools are paying these vocal parents to keep some of these schools open so they can grow themselves.

Your kids are at private school then Bug Al?
I don’t see anything wrong with trying to make the govt schools as good as they can possibly be. Which is what the P+Cs are aiming for. It’s a pretty sad concept that public schools are only for the dregs and it doesn’t matter how awful they are. I’m glad you’re not in the Assembly. You seem to think that unless people have the money to live in Red Hill and go to Grammar they should just put up with anything.

Clueless arse-wipes? WTF?

Do you even have a clue?

Dragway for minority vs. education for majority (and future) jees it’s a fucking big choice Big Al.

“We can’t pay to keep education in the ACT as the best in Australia but we can find the money to build a dragway”.

FFS, watermelon shit-bags? Pull your head out of your arse. You may well have finished school and don’t give a shit about the future of ACT Education but I sure as hell do. I have to work in it and my children will be going through the system for the next 15yrs.

yep the P&C dudes are generally the wannabe whingers who annoy the shit out of everyone.. can’t afford to send their kids to private school… but think they are better than public school..

If I ever have kids I am going to join the P&C just to be an annoying dickhead to all the other parents.. they will learn. I will then run for local government.

and I also believe that Bill would do a worse job than Schtanhope.

Tell us what you really think Big Al.

I reckon you have a point though.

And for all of the critics surely no one beleives Brendan or Bill or Zed would be any less arrogant annoying or painful.

We got a hybrid state and local gub’mint, no matter what they do som’ll reckon they should be focussed on the state issues some others local stuff.

Gee looks like the Feds gave us the worst of both worlds really. Ain’t that a surprise.

Personally, I think he should have gone further and pointed out to these pathetic whinging clueless arse-wipes that the school closures are about trying to salvage the public education system and make it into something worth sending your kids to – but the way these P&Cs and every other loon education fringe group carry on you’d think that it was about the budget deficit and no one can have anything else until all the schools are saved and all the teachers over-paid.

He’s right of course about middle class snobbery too … I’ve had a gutful of these pathetic watermelon shit-bags carrying on about school closures. If anyone needs a smack in the god-damn mouth it’s these self-centred dip-sticks who bleat on and on about the sanctity of public education.

LG there isn’t a school in every suburb at the moment. Watson Primary serves Watson, Downer, Hackett. Ainslie Primary is for Ainslie, Dickson, Braddon etc.

If he wasn’t a fan of the under privelidge, I am sure he would endorse a whacking day type concept.

Or is he really saying ‘we can’t educate them, so we’ll give them a dragway???’ – sounds pretty snobbish to me, if that is his line.

its either that, or the stickers are the only opinion piece he has read on ACT politics for a while..

I wondered why Stanhope was so keen on the dragway – of course – he sees it as supporting the under priveleged!!

Came home to grab b’day card for my dad – have to mail it off and saw this post.

Stanhope is a numpty of the highest calibre.

How easily he forgets that teachers have students from all socio-economic backgrounds and we don’t discriminate on that level. He’s also forgotten that parents aren’t all living on $100K+ that he’s getting as Chief Numpty.

Perhaps he should take a better look at himself. That’s if he even casts a reflection in a mirror.

Maybe it’s because Stanhope doesn’t have any idea what he’s doing?

Just a personal observation.

Standope has lost whatever miniscule political ability he had by attacking people like this. He is nothing short of a self-centred, arrogant prick who, should he not have found himself in office, would have copped more than the occasional smack in the mouth in the pub (not that he’d ever go to one).

Maybe next election the people of Canberra will hav the brains to select someone……anyone different and get the ACT back in line with reality

Thanks for the extra context Special G

Drag-busses…. Awsome.
That’ll shave a bit more than 2 minutes off the trip. It might cause a few elderly casualties but the survivors would be quite punctual.

LG, you have to remember the spin put on the teachers pay claim. The govt wants teachers to work extra in line with NSW. Teachers are happy to do this if the ACT govt then provides the curriculum as NSW govt does. The extra time ACT teachers have off class is so that they plan their own classes.

Maybe to save money they should run the dragway on the busway, line it with trees and pave it with labour politicians?