Woden bashing teens caught

Special G said :

tap you are so full of it the screen almost oozes. Repeatedly on many threads you ask for stats, research backing and the like and then when someone actually comes up with something suddenly the research is flawed and stats can be manipulated and you are still correct.

You got nothing buddy.

Exactly Special G, thats the “moving the goal posts” comment I was talking about.

tap you are so full of it the screen almost oozes. Repeatedly on many threads you ask for stats, research backing and the like and then when someone actually comes up with something suddenly the research is flawed and stats can be manipulated and you are still correct.

You got nothing buddy.

“suck my balls”
Charming and a very effective debating tool. May I also suggest ‘my Dad is tougher than your Dad”, “my dog is blacker than yours”, and “you’re just a big poo face” for your incredible arsenal of intellect and high level argument

I pointed you there to explain why i was using the term straw man. Apparently you missed it again. Sigh. (And you say that i am ignoring you…) Can you see the reason for the redirection? That pretty much everything you say I’ve already answered?

Do you remember that this opinion was passed off as a fact? However as long as this is the end of our enlightening chat I won’t bother again trying to explain my point of view. You disagree. Wonderful. I would ask why but that would be in violation of your right to hold ignorant, reasonless opinions. Your comment 116 was all inults except accusing me of not understanding the difference between a fact an and opinion, I really wasn’t going to bother with it. I guess i can go into it a litte: A fact is something that is verifiable. A reasoned opinion is a conclusion built using facts and reason. An ignorant opinion is a conclusion that is devoid of facts or reason.

Me changing the goal posts? From what to what?

Do you really think that a (non ignorant) opinion doesn’t have to be based on any kind of facts or reason to be valid? Thats interesting, so if I was of the opinion that I saw a dinosaur walking around last night, therefore there was a dinosaur walking around last night, would that be valid? Now ofcourse Im welcome to the opinion, but it is wrong, and would be ignorant for me to hold it without trying to reason out what the chances of me seeing a dinosaur last night really were, and whether or not something else could have accounted for what I thought was a dinosaur walking around.

We’re done? Thats a shame, it was such an enlightening chat too, from beginning to end. Do make sure you jump in again soon and bombast me with your opinion that my opinion is invalid because it is against someone elses opinion and as all opinions are valid my opinion cant be valid nevermind that your opinion is that my opinion is invalid and following your own opinions logic it would also invalidate your opinion because its against my opinion but its only an opinion and while it is an opinion that contradicts itself that doesn’t matter as its an opinion and it doesn’t need to make sense.

tap said :

Spideydog: You just don’t read what im writing do you? Read comment 105.

Where in my post (116) did I say anything about statistics….so why point me back there?

But because you have raised it again…. I raised the statistics point (earlier) even after you made the admission that they can be flawed because : whenver someone has an opinion different to yours, you dis them and tell them to prove it with stats, etc. This tells me that you put a whole lot of faith in stats, etc even though you contradict your self later by admitting stats can be flawed.

I can read very well what you have to say and it is apparent to me that it is you that ignores what people write and instead concentrate on putting all your energy into changing peoples opinions to align with yours, or redirect them back to previous posts that have no relevence to their last post, or change the goal posts to suit your argument.

Me and you are done in this thread. Oh and because I choose not to reply to your future insightful posts in this thread, does not mean that you have won the “argument”. But feel free to revel in your “fake” glory if you wish.

Spideydog: You just don’t read what im writing do you? Read comment 105.

Oooohhh name calling now tap, must have pressed some buttons then eh…straw man…very imaginative. For someone who likes to make himself look so intelligent and “learnered” you sure are imature.

You have no distinction between OPINION and FACT. I know exactly what you are saying and so do the majority of posters here, hence the flack you receive…oh but we are all wrong and all of us have misunderstood you tap…

Get out of your little tunnel vision, bubble world and join the rest of us in reality…

Got some more names for me tap ?? tinman perhaps or something else imaginative and we will all go live in the land of the wizard of Oz.

It makes me happy to see that i incited such a interesting debate.

I hereby declare everyone on this site to be a dickhead in their own way, myself included.

Now that we have established this FACT (for which no evidence will be provided, but you all know I’m right), can I suggest that people at least *try* to play the ball and not the man?

Tap writes like a douche at times, but asking someone to back up a broad sweeping generalisation with some tangible evidence is hardly unreasonable. Anecdotal evidence is evidence of nothing, and stats may be unreliable, but at least they can be assessed.

On the other hand, continuing to argue about one statement made 100-odd posts ago gets a little boring, so lets just accept that you’re all wrong and move on.

good point maelinar – how could anyone ever think you and vg are the trolls i wonder?

Spideydog: I never said reason is only derived from stats and research. straw man.

I agree that reason can come from carefully weighing up pros and cons. I have used this line of reasoning in a few threads now, about legalisation, about homosexuality not being a choice. Straw man.

I get the feeling you don’t actually know what im saying, because pros and cons don’t really fit into what is being spoken about. This is about the ‘fact’ that somebody brought up ages ago Since the removal of corporal punishment from our schools, there has been a decline in the behavior of children and this is affecting their productivity as adults. All i am saying is why does the holder of the opinion believe this? (I’ve gone into much more detail above, you can read more there). The opinion gave no source at all. I didn’t say it was wrong, I said it can’t be taken as true.

I have given sound reason why corporal punishment is just as innefective as any other form of punishment.

I respect peoples right to an opinion, doesn’t mean I respect the opinion itself.

About me leaving. umm… no. suck my balls.

I am free to scrutinise peoples opinions, and I am even free to come to the conclusion that an opinion has not been reasoned properly, hence is unreasonable. I am also free to ask for reasons why a person believes something, you would be surprised how often people hold opinions without any reason whatsoever. You are also free to start blabbering on about how horrible I am for asking people to give the reasons for their opinions like I am some kind of blasphemer for daring to question a humans sacred right to ignorance.

I hear your snap, of tap
tap, tap, snap, snap
tap snap, snap tap
tap talks crap, crap comes out of tap
tap crap, crap tap
crap means flap, flap flap flap
flappidy flap, flap flap flap

Tap: “Reason” can be derived from more locations than just stats and research…. fool.

ie, “Reason” can be a person that weighs up the pros and cons and then forms an opinion.

You can say you “would like the think this is the last of Spideydog” That is your opinion. I can respect that, can you of others…..no.

You have totally missed the point that most people have made here (shock horror) You want a “fact war” start up a thread of a “topic” with a disclaimer “FACT replies only please”

If you can’t repect people giving opinions that are derived from sources other than stats and textbooks, then bugger off and start your own blog for “un-ignorant” people. I’m sure the conversations here would be alot more productive.

You are free to “scrutinise” peoples OPINIONS, but telling them they wrong because they have no stats or evidence to back thier OPINION is just plain stupid and arrogant.

good point vg.

Snap

Tap

Crap

Flap

Spideydog: They can be flawed. As opposed to they always are flawed. Did you catch the bit about And it seriously does not mean that an idea without evidence should be taken as true, just because it is possible evidence for it might be faulty.? What im saying is, there should be evidence, and that evidence should be scrutinised for validity, see neaderthalsis point. Which is fairly consistant with what i always say. Remember the fact in question is something that is happening right now, not hyptothetical.

I’d love to say this will be the end of “spideydog: I don’t need evidence or reason to believe what i believe!” line of reasoning, but im sure it won’t be.

Out of curioisty, why do you never mention reason? and only ever stats when misrepresenting what im saying?

Nice try and proven tappy. You are the one that bleats for stats and then admit that they are or can be flawed…..You contradict yourself and then still say that you are right.

Oh well, this should be the end of “tap: prove me wrong by providing stats” arguments eh, if stats are and can be very often wrong, of your own admission……

neanderthalsis: yeah sweet, thought so. Just wanted to be sure. 🙂

Spideydog: Read the comment directly above yours for my thoughts on statistics. You trying to say that im saying stats are the ‘be all and end all’, is called a straw man argument, where you misrepresent what your opponent is saying, tear the misrepresentation apart, then conclude that the opponents real argument has been proved wrong. Nice try.

Tap, of course it was terrible logic, it was meant to be as such. I was suggesting that any fool can drag out one set of figures, compare it to another and come to some bizarre conclusions that appear to make sense.

@tap

“Opinion without reason is ignorant”

Where the hell do you think they get stats and research from m8…..from people in that field, that they are getting stats from….from thier personal experiences.

If you honesty believe stats as being the “be all and end all” then you my friend, are the ignorant one.

lol. Just to be sure you’re not seriously believing what you said in the second paragraph? I could start going into other factors, such as an aging population and the increase of women in the workforce that could account for it, but theres no real point to that is there? We would all agree that males would be the predominant recipients of the cane / ruler and since the moves to ban corporal punishment began in the early 80’s, by a process of deduction, less corporal punishment equals less workforce participation and less productivity from males. lol! Thats terrible logic! Well presented terrible logic though, i must say 🙂

Well, pirates are cool.

I do see your point though, thats statistics can lie. I totally agree with that. But that does not mean they always lie. And it seriously does not mean that an idea without evidence should be taken as true, just because it is possible evidence for it might be faulty.

Its interesting how quickly those who believe an unreasonable idea blame reason for inconsitancies in their idea.

It is interesting how the uninformed so often clamour for statistics.

It is easy to show a statistical relationship between the decline in corporal punishment and the decline in workforce participation, over the period 1980 to 2005, the overall workforce participation rate for males declined from 78.3 to 72.1 per cent (productivity commission figures). We would all agree that males would be the predominant recipients of the cane / ruler and since the moves to ban corporal punishment began in the early 80’s, by a process of deduction, less corporal punishment equals less workforce participation and less productivity from males.

We can also draw the same deductions from the increase in property crime rates over the same period.

On a side note, it is statistically proven that the increase in world temperature attributed to global warming has a direct inverse relationship with the number of pirates in the world. The proof may be found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:FSM_Pirates.png

My point is, stats are easily manipulated, there arguements on both sides of the fence concerning the social capital benefits or detriment derived from corporal punishment.

A Canadian study, “A meta-analysis of the published research on the affective, cognitive, and behavioral effects of corporal punishment” examined the lasting pshycological and pathological effects on children exposed to moderate corporal punishment.

It reported that:

results of the present meta-analysis suggest that exposure to corporal punishment does not increase the risk to youth of developing affective, cognitive, or behavioral pathologies.

Maelinar: And you think that majority consensus means the correct opinion? You can’t think of even one time where an idea that has been popular has been wrong? flat earth perhaps? Thats an appeal to popularity, and is a logical fallacy. Also I didn’t say you couldn’t hold ignorant opinions, I just said they were ignorant.

There, your argument is getting a little more sound. Not perfect, but at least it’s standing. – haha to anybody taking academic advice from a retard.

An opinion isn’t right just because you hold it. – Somehow this statement doesn’t gel when it comes from a poster who holds a set of opinions, against pretty much every other on RA (except his umbilical brother). History shows us that the majority of rioters form the majority consensus – aka hmm… our right of democratic opinion ?

Keep on keeping on… flapping.

Shift work numpty. Not all of us do a nine to five day. DMD’s calling Headbonius a douche makes me think he might be the same person as tap. They both spout the exact same lines.

I’m going to wash the nerd off this monitor 😛

I don’t.

Being a 3-post nutbag, I will add….You all use Riot-Act at work, you lazy bastards. Get your arses to work!

I’m usually in class when I post during the day, so I probably should too…

Also, I’d like to see some statistics still. It would be interesting to see how workplace productivity has changed from the old days.

There, your argument is getting a little more sound. Not perfect, but at least it’s standing.

I agree that the workplace has become a little more laid back than the slave-labor days of old, but I don’t see the connection between workplace productivity and corporal punishment in schools.

It could be to do with the range of activities available to young people now, i.e. Television, internet, sms madness and e’s, activities that can be arranged at any time, consume long hours and can affect people’s concentration, therefore making alot of the monotonous labor tasks associated with working in small business much more challenging than it really should be.

Speaking with small business owners in a number of fields they have told me they would prefer to hire a 30+ person as they turn up and work hard and try to avoid the younger generation as they are slack and will not turn up to shifts. This is particularly the case on weekends as there is far too much stuff happening on a Friday/Saturday night so when a weekend shift comes around they either a – don’t turn up or b – turn up suffering the effects of a monster night out and are ineffective.

No I don’t have statistics on this it is based on my own experiences of speaking with small business owners.

As for the corporate punishment thingy – bring back stocks in Garema place with rotten veges. Repeat offenders extradite to Antartica.

Yes this is off topic for the teens caught in woden bashing although this is where the topic has progressed.

Special G, I’m sure people’s opinions are formed on life experiences.

When you express them, however, you must expect them to be criticized. Not everyone see’s the same thing in everything and therefore, they may draw different conclusions.

The key to making claims, such as ‘there has been a decline in the behavior of children and this is affecting their productivity as adults’ hold water in the hope that people will take that in to their opinion is to BACK THAT SH-T UP! Results, statistics, verifiable accounts similar to your own – all of these wonderful little things can turn what looks to be an ill-thought-out passing statement into a sound argument.

Remember, you are not trying to convince yourself you are right. You are trying to convince others.

Also, simply stating that you have experience in this field blah blah blah is a classic way of avoiding backing up your argument, therefore making you appear to be more and more wrong every time you say it.

Thumper: I guess that means you’re no longer feeding the trolls then. Good-o 🙂

Oh and one more thing, also there would have to be reason that the lack of corporal punihsment is the reason for the kids decline in behaviour. Which at the moment seems quite a flawed idea.

Thumper you’re back, you directed a comment at me, i replied with something else for you, but you didn’t respond?

Yes I have considered that.

Remember my opinion is that if Since the removal of corporal punishment from our schools, there has been a decline in the behavior of children and this is affecting their productivity as adults. is to be taken as true, there really should be evidence, I say this because the statement is posed as a fact that is happening now, and something like that must have evidence (I can think of some exceptions to this, but this is not one of them). Evidence such as some numbers proving that productivity is less amongs 20-30 year olds today than it was against 20-30 year olds ten years ago, and that is less than the producivity of ten years before that. Secondly if there was this evidence there still needs to be evidence, or a reason, linking the alleged decline in behaviour of kids, with the decline in productivity in adults. Something that would basically prove that the behaviour in kids is the sole, or at least major reason for the decline in productivity.

If the statement were a hypothetical, eg kids behviour today might lead to a decline in their productivity, then evidence would not be required, but reason still would.

Is this really so unreasonable?

Ingeegoodbee said :

You really should stop with the American slang for name calling too (’douche’). It really does say something about you. At least call me a dickhead, an idiot, a ‘poo face’ if you will.

Just don’t call him a “fcuked up little monkey”

And for the record vg, no I’m not. I simply remember how pissed off you got when Big Al dropped that on you.

And how the same person disappeared into the ether. I didn’t get pissed off, Big Al just got vewy, vewy scared. Though I suspect he/she/it is back as one of the 3 twits we are discussing

tap said :

Its when their personal experience lead them to incorrect opinions thats the problem.

tap: Have you considered that your personal opinion might be incorrect. If you haven’t considered it this indeed could be a problem.

Special g: Its when their personal experience lead them to incorrect opinions thats the problem.

El: Whats wrong with that? Remember I asked for evidence. And also pay attention to this bit: or a reason why adults productivity is declining.

Tap asking for statistics.

The irony.

High school debating club has gotten out of hand for you, sunshine.

You really should stop with the American slang for name calling too (’douche’). It really does say something about you. At least call me a dickhead, an idiot, a ‘poo face’ if you will.

Just don’t call him a “fcuked up little monkey”

And for the record vg, no I’m not. I simply remember how pissed off you got when Big Al dropped that on you.

Special G – legend.

Special G

Touche my frind

Spectacular post that one tap – shouldn’t post at 2am as the brain doesn’t work so well then.

Opinions are generally formed due to experiences. These can be formed due to ones own encounters, based on the experiences of others, or from media sources.

People here base their opinions on their life experiences (combination of the above) – that does not make them a douche. It simply makes you come off as a knob when you call them such.

Opinion without reason is ignorant. Opinion that flies in the face of reason is ignorant. Claiming someones opinion is ill concieved because of their position, or lack thereof, and not because of the substance of the opinion and reasons is ignorant.

An opinion isn’t right just because you hold it.

Opinions can be wrong. eg In my opinion I am a car. Another one that is spectacularly flawed and some people seem to actually believe is evidence can be misleading, therefore no evidence should be required while forming a well reasoned opinionn… Special G…

Opinion based on personal experience can very easily lead to faulty conclusions. Eg. My children are well behaved, therefore all children are well behaved. And vice versa.

There is a difference between an opinion that is purely personal eg I like the colour blue, and one that is a conlusion on an issue that is arrived at after weighing together reasons Eg corporal punishment is not the reason kids today are misbehaving because 1. if that were true, there would have not been kids misbehaving back when corporal punishment was the norm and 2. There were kids misbehaving back when corporal punishment was the norm and 3. There are stories of people being whipped numerous times, if the punishment stopped them misbehaving, they wouldn’t have needed more than one whipping.

Bear in mind that all this started from me saying Also maybe some kind of statistics or at least a reason why you think Since the removal of corporal punishment from our schools, there has been a decline in the behavior of children and this is affecting their productivity as adults. might be nice if you want people to take your rant seriously? So no stats (also known as evidence yeah?), and no reason why their ‘productivity’ is being adversely affected as adults. So why this opinion? – Its not too far out a question, and it is one the holder of the opinion should have thought about in reaching their conclusion.

An opinion really, really shouldn’t use the opinion is the reason for the opinion or be faith based. Eg. People should need a license to breed because people should need a license to breed. Its what I think and thats all the reasoning I need. Damn any reasons that challenge it.

So defend your right to hold ignorant opinions all you want, if you are so pathetic that you need to plain ignore reasons that challenge yours, and the people that challenge you fine, thats your choice. Heaps of people do it. In my personal opinion, if some of the larger wankers on here were to ignore me, I can really see the pros in that for me, I wouldn’t continually be reading brain dead responses completely devoid of a point like the ones I keep reading from vg. So by all means dont ever speak to me again.

vg: You a troll? See comment 22, your first comment. Its just not possible you could be a troll. You were so on topic… no one would ever imagine that you are just a douche who insults without reason.

tap, you can’t work it out I was supposed to add a space into that one, was directed at you and DMD. Heres one for you – stats can be maniplated to provide almost any answer to back any claim. Go do a stats course as part of your BA and you will find how they are come by. All you seem to do is insult people or ask questions to answer questions. My snappy survey of a number of RA readers came up with the following statistic – 100% of RA readers think you’re a knob. I think that is significant result in the stats world.

On the off topic of trolls – I like people like tap and DMD they provide entertainment. I even used to read CC comments and have a good laugh before she got edited off the site. These two have nothing on Crazy.

My opinion – There is a decline in respect of others and work ethic in the current generation of youths. The is also an increase in random violence in the ACT.

My advice – Go do some kickboxing, boxing, krav maga, BJJ (any or all of) then go about your normal business happy in the knowledge that should you become the victim of such an act brought about by the youths talked about in this thread you can open a big can of whoop ass then have an exciting story to tell your mates over a beer.

@tap, you can’t work it out I was supposed to add a space into that one, was directed at you and DMD. Heres one for you – stats can be maniplated to provide almost any answer to back any claim. Go do a stats course as part of your BA and you will find how they are come by. All you seem to do is insult people or ask questions to answer questions. My snappy survey of a number of RA readers came up with the following statistic – 100% of RA readers think you’re a knob. I think that is significant result in the stats world.

On the off topic of trolls – I like people like tap and DMD they provide entertainment. I even used to read CC comments and have a good laugh before she got edited off the site. These two have nothing on Crazy.

My opinion – There is a decline in respect of others and work ethic in the current generation of youths. The is also an increase in random violence in the ACT.

My advice – Go do some kickboxing, boxing, krav maga, BJJ (any or all of) then go about your normal business happy in the knowledge that should you become the victim of such an act brought about by the youths talked about in this thread you can open a big can of whoop ass then have an exciting story to tell your mates over a beer.

Geez you guys (& Gals) post quick…lol My Post #73 is in reply to Maelinar. Cheers.

Certainly seems that way…. Textbook knowledge means “didley squat” in the real world.

On another note, I thought that parenting would be a snap, thought that I knew everything I needed to know about being a parent. That was before I became one. I realise now, that then, I had absolutely NO idea what it was like to be a parent, and knew nothing about raising a child.

Actually being a parent gives a “full” insght into what it is like. (though, not being a parent doesn’t preclude people from offering an opinion.)

Nothing beats real life experience. Textbooks and theory set a good foundation, but it’s the “put into practice”, life experience that gives people real skills and knowledge. IMO..??

Yes, so true. I will try (but I’m sure they’ll accuse me of being the troll)

I’m guilty of this myself, but it’s time to stop feeding the trolls. Don’t respond, don’t acknowledge and certainly don’t take the bait. A sustained, combined effort will soon see them piss off to some other blog.

Spidey: They can only attack the statistics because there is a lack of real-life experience to form their own opinions. At any rate, their arguments will only be calculated from whatever school text they are reading presently, so the truth of it is you are negotiating with a textbook.

Tap: What ever happened to people being able to offer OPINIONS ….. Why must people have to back thier OPINION with statistics….

I don’t see the problem with people offering opinions gained from whatever life experiences they have or have had…they shouldn’t be required to back them up with stats……If you don’t agree with thier OPINION, then state your argument. If you start going on with “provide stats” to back your claim, well then it’s not opinions being offered, its FACT that your after.

I don’t think you understand that meaning opinion tap, because everytime someone here offers one, you demand “stats” and research to back thier so called claims.

People are allowed opinions. If you don’t agree, discuss them on the merits and if you REALLY want stats, get them yourself and post them up, your the only one obsessed with “Stats” m8.

Having worked at an after school care and seeing what some of the kids who used to go there get up to now, I assure you that’s not the case, special G.

I would fill you in on the rich life experience I do have tap, but you would find yourself feeling rather inadequate after reading it so I’ll save you the trouble.

But please, fill us in on YOUR parenting experience and the interaction you have had with children across the broad spectrum of age. I’m sure it will be enthralling and well worth the 1.5 secs it takes to read it.

You really should stop with the American slang for name calling too (‘douche’). It really does say something about you. At least call me a dickhead, an idiot, a ‘poo face’ if you will. At least something from this general geographic area rather than something you picked up in one of your TV shows. I’ve been called them all before and they worry me not a jot, but at least I’ll know you’re really trying if you use our vernacular

Whereas vg seems to know bugger all about everything, regardless of all this life experience he supposedly has.

Piss off vg, you’re a douche.

Tap seems to know a lot about parenting and child guidance for a person who is barely out of his/her/its own childhood.

NFI

Special G: Umm… did you maybe make a mistake in the last post? Possibly implying that I have mentioned anything about after school care? I wouldn’t like to live in your delusional world, thats for sure.

And im not too sure what exactly is utopian about this thread. But on the plus side, if you consider what I’ve been talking about utopia, then good news! You’ve got what you wanted. You do live in what i’ve been talking about. I should add that I don’t consider it utopia, but you apparently do, so huraah for you i guess.

I’d like to live in tap’s utopia. Parents who put their kids in after school care actually care enough to try to get them some supervision. It’s the ones who just let them run amok are the topic of this thread.

Nyssa: You seem quite adament about pushing a point I wasn’t disputing… But go ahead.

Or it could be another factor, ant….perhaps the children are properly disciplined at home, but when they come to school/asc, they’re on of about 11 in care of a single staff member (probably one of more in high school playgrounds). Mix that ease of getting away with stuff with peer pressure and you have a potential rat-bag in every child/teenager.

Many kids these days are either in care after school or simply left at home by themselves, as many families have both parents working. I think the latter is a good thing, since it shows society has moved away from the working man and his housewife syndrome. But it means that how we discipline children at both school AND home needs to be looked at.

Deadmandrinking said :

I noticed that parents were concerned with how their children behaved more often than not and expressed horror at some of the things their kiddies did (in regards to violence, swearing etc.)

They might have expressed horror, DMD, but did they *do* anything? We often see parents who are evidently aware of what’s expected, but nothing changes, correct behaviour is not enforced in a meaningful way, they just abandon the kids in childcare, school, ski school etc and expect the staff to deal with it. The last mentioned child-care facility has been my experience with parents, the ones who put the kids on their ritalin break during ski holidays wre my favourite, and they’d say all the right things but plainly weren’t doing them.

Were we fools for not talking about fireworks in a differently-themed thread?

Nyssa, I’m sure there’s parents like that. I’ve known kids with parents like that, but can you give us a reliable source as to how many are there. Or even an unreliable source. From your post, it seems that every child at your school has this problem.

It’s not much of a comparison, but I did work at an after school care for a while when I was younger. I noticed that parents were concerned with how their children behaved more often than not and expressed horror at some of the things their kiddies did (in regards to violence, swearing etc.) Again, that’s not much of a comparison, you could just be in a worse area than I was. But I’d still like an estimated figure.

Mael, they must have all been in Tuggers then. They were still going off at midnight.

The only fireworks I saw was when I was in the car to purchase some grog for the evening. I have heard the odd sparkle and crack, but hardly within hearing distance.

Holt, the new Bogan capital (ex. Charnwood) of Canberra, has severely let me down. The one night where I get to go outside and marvel at the amount of financial stupidity of the bogans in the world in a semi-entertaining atmosphere, I could have done a roast pork with more bang out of the crackle.

Mael, how true 🙂

I just don’t suffer fools too well.

*mutters about the damn firworks still going off outside*

Nys, your breath is wasted on those two. I doubt any comment you make will be read in the context it is written.

I maintiain that they are simply the next two shock-jock canards in the same course stream as SGS, albeit they are this years entrants.

Commonsense and real-life experience is not a factor to these two, as they have neither.

tap, you can want all you like but if you actually ‘go into the trenches’ you might actually learn something.

Parents AREN’T being responsible for their children anymore. I’m not saying all parents are doing that because I see some great parents and kids in my line of work, however, there are parents who don’t give a toss and who’s kids (by age 17) are in cars joyriding, B&E, assault….

I’ve got 13yos telling me they were joyriding last weekend and this is after all the news with Clea Rose’s death.

The parents knew nothing because they didn’t care. How do I know? I called them.

I was going to add to that before my keyboard went cuckoo (I dropped it not long ago), that there are quite a few cases of people who’ve cleaned themselves up once they have children.

Another part of Duke’s theory that just doesn’t work is the fact that families can go to sh-t halfway through. Divorces can lead to depression/problems with addiction/suicide etc. And what about children who lose their parent(s) in accidents?

Very thoughtful and well-reasoned post from Vicepope. I think there needs to be more emphasis on peoples’ obligations as parents, and a lot less on peoples’ “rights”.

Duke: Well I hope you can at least see that there is some massive problems with the idea… fascist. :p

Tap – I’m not going to debate with you on hypotheticals.

Vice – well said. But when it comes to parenting, the rights of the potential child, not the not the potential parents, should be the first consideration.

At present it is the right of any adult to have a child, even if they are dreadfully unsuited to have one or care for one. This is unacceptable.

Children like these are not a new phenomenom. I don’t believe that the numbers of similar children are increasing either. There is a common rule of thumb that I have come to believe in after many years of dealing with similar children. SHIT PARENT/S = SHIT CHILD/REN.

Of course there are exceptions to the rule.

It is a vicious cycle too as SHIT CHILDREN are more likely to breed earlier and more often. The only upside is that with their risk taking behaviour ie drugs, stealing cars, driving like idiots, getting involved in violence they are more likely to meet a sticky end early in their lives. It is Darwin’s theory in beautiful action.

It would be an unacceptable intrusion into individual life and liberty to require people to get permits to have children. That would be the case even if the logistical and privacy nightmare could be overcome. China has attempted to restrict – not allocate – fertility, and it’s been problematic at so many levels, even where people accept the authority of the state and the wisdom of managing population.

The best a society like ours can do is probably (a) educate people about the burden a child will place on parents, not only to feed and clothe but to provide a sense of social or moral responsibility (b) somehow educate people to be critical about their own capacity to undertake that burden, (c) support the decisions that are made so that it is seen as ok to be childless and ok to be a parent. This may mean looking hard at the structure of family support payments and at stuff like countering stupidity in the media.

I have no idea if it could be achieved, but it may be more useful than any amount of effort thrown at people because they and their children are problems. Even a modest reduction in the number of parents who are unable or unwilling to do the job properly would be a social gain.

Duke:
a few questions,

1. Who decides just how whether a person or couple can emotionally support a child? Sounds like if they pass this course (always put milk in the fridge, or failing that, a cool wet sack. And put your garbage in the garbage bin people, I can’t stress that enough) its more about who has the money.
2. What exactly would this course teach? How to change a nappy?
3. What happens to couples that do have a child without a licence? The child taken away I assume?
4. Do you think this idea is workable? Wouldn’t there have to be some kind of compulsory contraceptive for people who fail this test or don’t have enough money? Or would it be compulsory for all people who havn’t taken the test and are older than say 12?
5. I realise civil liberties can’t be too high on your agenda, but can you understand why people might be against handing over what is essentially the meaning of life (creating more life) to the state?

Tap – i believe people should require a licence in order to have a child. The licence would be granted after the couple have taken a compulsory child rearing course and proved they can support that child financially and emotionally.

Regards – Duke

Duke: You should require a licence to make a baby.

Do you actually believe that? Or was it a bit of a throw away line? (Would be lame of me to go off on a massive rant [the word fascist would probably be in it! :p ] if you dont actually think it?)

nyssa: No stats at all about adult who didn’t have corporal punishment productivity declining compared with adult that did? Well then we really can’t take as a fact that it is. It could be that the majority of little bastards will grow up into normal functional adults, just the majority of little bastards from generations previous.

H, we have? look up ‘the trouble with teachers’ on google blog search.

tap, I actually have experience with teens and their parents in issues similar to this.

The parents don’t give a crap. You’re more than welcome to come into my school and pay a visit. Just sign in at the front office as a visitor….

Furthermore there aren’t any statistics (which can be interpreted to suit your argument) on this type of thing. People just don’t care.

Re: people who say clever things like “i was smacked/beaten as a child and i turned out alright”…. How do you know you’re alright? Maybe when you say things like that, those close to you are thinking “Well, actually i always wanted to tell you how much of an asshole/emotional cripple/unstable bastard you are.”

I certainly do not believe that hitting a child produces a desirable outcome. Children need to be set clear guidelines and expectations of behaviour from a very young age, and resorting to violence shouldn’t be an option. Children are people too.

Everyone has an opinion on child-rearing practices, whether they have children or not, and it is goes with being a parent that people will share these with you, so suck it up. Comments such as I find that they are mostly barren, childless people who dont know sh*t from a sock. (PBO, comment #15) are pointless – do you think that because you popped out one or two, you’re suddenly an expert on all children?

Problem is Cantily many kids these days don’t have good parents, so I do have some sympathy for kids who f**k up – they’re simply a product of their environment.

A good slap upside the head is needed for some unrulys, but so is nurturing and role models. What we saw at woden is a failure of society. You should require a licence to make a baby.

Agree with Ant totally. The link the school has with the parent is the most important and when parents and teachers are working together to provide real consequences you rarely ever see a repeat of the negative behaviour. Beating children is not part of that solution. Real parenting is. What we saw in that video were children bereft of a parenting model that incorporates set values and guidelines. So what if they had their stuff stolen, nothing excuses taking action into their own hands. First they should never be associating with people at the bus interchange at Woden in the first place. As a parent my children know about boundaries, they know about what is safe and they know what to do once a situation has become unsafe. I trust them to not turn into feral animals and take the law into their own hands. That trust has come about through communication, a clear set of values (reiterated through my and my partners own actions) and clear consequences. No beatings or corporal punishment needed!

I note the fireworks are still being fired from the umbilical twits.

flap flap flap.

Nyssa is there any way I can contact you? We have spoken before – I have lost the links to get to your space.

vg: You made it through the first sentence. Well done.

bd84: Does anyone know anyone who has grown up to try and solve a problem by smacking someone on the ass? Erm… Everyone here who is in favour of corporal punishment? There is actually quite a lot.

I might add that if the current behavioural problems of children is due to the lack of corporal punishment, then shouldn’t have there been no juvinile delinquents back when corporal punishment was the norm?

It does seem true that a lot of parents aren’t taking their responsibilities seriously enough, I just don’t think corporal punishment is much of a solution.

Agreed Ant.

And sOs – those most certainly _are_ feral teenagers, regardless of whether or not they’d had property stolen first. And what the hell are 13 and 14 year old kids doing associating with an old junkie in the first place? Some brilliant parenting there for sure…

er, we all saw the video, Swami. The girls were beating the cr@p out of the older woman. NOTHING excuses that. She might be annoying, she might have stolen stuff, but we don’t live in the jungle, yet. Normal people don’t do stuff like this, ever. People we want to live with in society don’t do stuff like this. Please. Let me reiterate the condemnation of them, and their parents.

They weren’t exactly ‘caught’. The girls took themselves to the Police to discuss the matter – with their parents in tow. The real situation was that Crazy Mary (the woman allegedly being attacked who is a known smackie)had already assaulted them and her daughter had taken/stolen property belonging to the two young girls in the video. Those girls are around 13 and 14 years old. Their friend, a Samoan girl stepped in to assist the girls retrieve their property from the theiving junkie cow. Obviously assaulting her was wrong, but if some junkie took your stuff…maybe you and your friends would take some action too.

The outcome as far as I’ve heard, is that there will be no charges for the girls. They were victims in this scenario, but the media as usual has the story all wrong. It was the usual beat-up story about feral teenagers on YouTube from the media. Nice work to those of you that condemned them and their parents. And really encouraging to have read the derogatory comments in the various threads about teenagers and also those of non-caucasian backgrounds. Well done, some of you. :Þ

My school didn’t have corporal punishment, but discipline was iron (private school). Why? Because the parents and the school were at one. If you turned up without correct uniform on, punishment or even sent home. Bad behaviour = punishment. A girl whose parents weren’t going to help, found that the school could not longer have the girl at the school. Yet there was no physical punishment.

I think this shows that, to find the problem, you just have to look at the homes from whence kids these days have sprung. No upbringing, no discipline, no rules. Parents who have no concept that they actually have to do more than just copulate and give birth.

If they do end up charging someone, they would all have to be charged since the footage does show that they’re all as guilty as each other. The woman taking part in the fight is just as bad, and I bet her darling daughter is similar to the other three lovely young ladies.

As for the discipline debate, the first place to look is at parents as the attitude of kids flows from the home to school. Too many precious darlings around today because parents can’t say “NO” and are too stupid or afraid to discipline their children because the deluded do-gooders of the world think a smack on the bum is abuse and turns everyone who has ever recieved a smack into violent axe murdering maniacs.

The truth is that there are that many parents out there saying “don’t do that johnny or mummy will be very disappointed” or writing up useless “behaviour contracts” that they’ve forgotten what discipline actually is. While I don’t believe that smacking is the end all or going to work in every case, it is effective in some circumstances and at the end of the day the argument that it teaches kids violence solves problems is absolute bullsht. Does anyone know anyone who has grown up to try and solve a problem by smacking someone on the ass? I doubt it.

I think your experience is that all you’ve ever done is go to school.

Pointless sadism is reading the tripe that you spout, and the fact you can’t leave any lengthy thread without having 50% of the postings

Thumper: My credentials. Well I went to school, does that count? I know what corporal punishment feels like, and I have a good enough memory to remember it sucked. I also am experienced enough to notice when someone says something like Since the removal of corporal punishment from our schools, there has been a decline in the behavior of children and this is affecting their productivity as adults. that some kind of evidence should be used to support the claim. Perhaps there is less people doing uni now (per capita) than ever before, perhaps something else. Whatever, if the statement is true and adults ‘productivity’ (we havn’t got into defining exactly what that is yet either) is declining, this fact would have to evidence itself somewhere.

On another note, your story is an example of corporal punishment being totally ineffective:

Never did me any harm and I got plenty of floggings at school.

Probably deserved most of them as well 😉

If corporal punishment was effective, then you wouldn’t have been flogged plenty of times would have you? One would have been enough.

Perhaps you, like most kids previously, and hopefully the gosh darned kids of today who are worse than ever and back in my day we had respect, simply grew up, and became a productive member of society. However if your case is not uncommon, if many kids were flogged regularly, then history has shown that doing the same to kids nowdays will not improve their behaviour, it will just mean they get beaten more (and perhaps teach them that violence is an acceptable solution to problems??). I for one am glad our society has moved past such pointless sadism.

DMD: Don’t worry about vg. He’s just a douche, he doesn’t pepper his point with insults, he just pointlessly insults. Who cares?

The way DMD and Tap unite on all causes moronic shows a far closer union than Mael and I have ever had. And please keep up with the thread, he’s not asking me for anything.

and note: he’s ASKING for the statistics. He’s asking for evidence from you. Just because you say you have a uni degree, it does not mean you can make unsubstantiated claims.

Yeah VG, honestly, all he was asking for was some evidence to back up the claim.

You’re Maelinar’s b*tch, which, knowing what that guy’s like, is truly truly lame.

Hey tap was that a single flap ? I thought the post from vg was the start of a Dr Seuss book.

vg: lame.

Tap, Tap, Tap
Flap, flap, flap

You further the confirmation of your stupidity each and every time you post on subjects like this.

What do you reckon Nyssa does for a living? Studies an art degree at uni?

Get out from behind your desk and experience what is happening in life

nyssa: I was more interested in the statistics or reasons for how this alleged decline is affecting their productivity as adults, thats why I asked about it. Thanks for attempting answering a completely different question though.

I do not envy whoever gets to deal with this one. The evidence may be messy before there can be any thought of a conviction. The level of public comment and repetition of the footage is a certainty to be argued as a reason that a trial would be unfair. Even if they’re guilty, sentencing is an appallingly difficult task.

I’m with Nyssa. If schools have failed, it is because the task they have is becoming more mountainously oppressive every day. They are variously expected to provide a traditional education, work readiness, occupation, sporting prowess, cultural enrichment and the social grounding that many parents neglect. The day isn’t long enough, and no teacher can have all the skills expected. External demands for “discipline” ignore the fact that many parents don’t care and a noisy minority treat as near-assault any suggestion that their children should conform to a standard of behaviour that may be expected in a civilised world. The demand for ludicrously generous grades is at a level where every child expects to excel (as do the parents), even if objective atainment is minimal. Bringing back a bell curve of failure would be a good start.

I wonder why anyone goes into the teaching business. Probably the reason some schools do better is that there’s at least some requirement for parental engagement with the school.

Also maybe some kind of statistics or at least a reason why you think Since the removal of corporal punishment from our schools, there has been a decline in the behavior of children and this is affecting their productivity as adults. might be nice if you want people to take your rant seriously?

Are you shitting me?

Go to a high school today. Go on do it. You have NO clear concept of what goes on in high schools in Canberra. I go in every day.

Behaviour and CONSEQUENCES for said behaviour are in decline. Parents actually giving a shit are in decline.

The fact that one of these ‘cherubs’ is 13yo speaks volumes for the parenting or lack there of in this case.

It really annoy’s me that some people who dont know any better try to tell people how to raise their kids. – Well just as long as you are not trying to tell other parents they should hit their kids that sounds consistant. It would be an odd school, with two groups one where parents have authorised the use of physical violence against their children and one where the parents havn’t. Imagine being on the ‘beat me with a stick list’ and the kid that always gives you shit isn’t! that would blow.

Also maybe some kind of statistics or at least a reason why you think Since the removal of corporal punishment from our schools, there has been a decline in the behavior of children and this is affecting their productivity as adults. might be nice if you want people to take your rant seriously?

Anyone over 30 would remember when it was in schools and it never did us any harm in the long run. – That is a sweeping generalisation that many would not agree with. There are so many stories from the good old days about schools where the kids were beaten way too badly. How quickly we forget… Not that im over 30 i should probably add, but I do have enough personal experience with corporal punishment to know that Im really going to exhaust all other options before I even consider it when/if I have children.

yep, i’ve always thought that a good smack made me remember things better…

can someone just whack me with a baseball bat?… i got an exam in 5 mins…

Since the removal of corporal punishment from our schools, there has been a decline in the behavior of children and this is affecting their productivity as adults. I know that there will be some bleeding heart liberal who says that there are better, nicer, fluffier ways to deals with kids. I find that they are mostly barren, childless people who dont know sh*t from a sock.

It really annoy’s me that some people who dont know any better try to tell people how to raise their kids. If there was a way to discipline children that has the same impact then enlighten us.

Principal should be given the power to discipline kids as they see fit and what is deemed fit by the parents. letting kids know that they have done wrong and why it is wrongs very important. The smack is so they do not forget.

Anyone over 30 would remember when it was in schools and it never did us any harm in the long run. (Marist excepted)

So what are you suggesting?

When you say ‘restore some order into our society’ does that mean you think that right now there is no order whatsoever? Contrary to what some here might want you to believe, there are actually quite a few children around today that do not bash women at woden plaza, or terrorize adults on buses. We call these children ‘the majority’.

When you say that these things happen constantly, perhaps that means that this is one of those things that has always been there, and always will be. What im suggesting is maybe the problem isn’t as large and hopeless as some people believe it to be.

What do you consider meaningful deterrance? This is talked about often on RA. It is widely accepted that sending them to juvinile detention rarely has a positive effect, and more often than not actually increases criminal behaviour amongst the children that are sent there. Same for adult prison. So the courts system isn’t left with a lot of positive options Seemingly Either send them to juvinile detention, and almost guarantee a larger problem will walk out than what walked in, as well as almost guaranteeing future crime (and hence future victims), and the general destruction of the criminals life. Or go leniant, hope that community service, good behaviour bonds etc etc tide them over until these children grow out of it, if they grow out of it. Remember we are talking about children here, the humans are not completely developed.

One other point: When a person talks about how horrible a crime is and the person that perpertrated that crime is probably going to get away with it because they will claim that they have been on the recieving end of horrible behaviour in the past they are simultaneously saying that a crime is bad and will have major effects, and in the same breath seriously under representing, to the point of trivialising, the effects that crime has on victims. eg ‘they can pull the victim of society card’. What exactly do you mean by ‘victim of society’. I assume a person who has one way or another been on the recieving end of something awful eg abusive parents. How is it consistant to on hand be seriously upset about crime being commited, and extremely worried about the victim and at the same time be extremely hostile towards to purportrator of the crime, who as you suggest, is (or at least in a lot of cases is) a victim of society, someone that is themselves a victim of a crime that has happened previously? It seems you have scorn for the same people you were worried about previously.

I never suggested corporal punishment, there are more subtle and humane ways to discipline children and reinstate some order in to our society. It is widely accepted that the victimisation of the criminal and criminalisation of the victim has just got way out of hand. Read the posts above, I’m not the only one that believes a “slap on the wrist” is all these kids will need to fear. No doubt they can pull the ‘victim of society’ card and punishment (deterrance) be reduced significantly.

These sorts of horrific things are occuring constantly, here and in other cities I have lived in Australia. For example the teenagers who went nuts on an adult passenger last year sitting in front me – the ACTION staff just threw their hands up in the air helplessly and advised us that there was nothing they or anyone could do, as did the police I believe.

Meanwhile these kids are probably still travelling on the inter-town route armed with knives terrorising passengers, and all the closed circuit cameras in the world will do nothing.

So what do other people suggest we do to address this madness?

I am willing to place odds at 20:1 on these kids (and adult) receiving any meaningful deterrance (or punishment).

I feel for the police, it must be a *very* tough job, being absolutely powerless.

canberracafe: I dont understand why you think that in a country where ‘discipline’ is more widely accepted, kids ‘respect’ there teachers? I could understand ‘fear’ there teachers, but why on earth would a kid have respect for some bastard that beats them? Perhaps if there is respect for teachers, the respect is there for a completely seperate reason to the discipline? Some kind of cultural difference perhaps is the reason? Perhaps there are many and the beating of children by teachers is only a minor part, or actually a hindrance, but due to the other parts there still works out to be more respect?

Also don’t you think its a little odd to seemingly argue that because these two teenagers beat up a woman at woden interchange, corporal punishment should be brought back into schools?

A friend of mine works in Korea. Kids there respect their teachers, as discipline is more widely accepted. He started a teaching degree in Perth, and gave up after undertaking only a month of field placement, and went back to Korea. Teachers are not allowed to, or are too terrorfied, to discipline children in Australia. It’s not ‘politically correct’, criminals being ‘victims of the system’ after all. It’s all very nice to be philosophical about this sort of thing, but sometimes they just need a kick up the bum.

I blame working families for this kind of behaviour!

tee hee. ‘latte socialists’ coming from ‘canberracafe.com’

What caf said.

Oh yeah, I’m sure Socialism invented anti-social teenagers.

I wonder if it is the same little turds that harassed a poor Asian guy sitting in front of them on a inter-town bus last year. Inexcusable racism. One trashy girl was even playing with a knife at the time. Called the police, yada yada, nothing. Even though the trashy kids tried followed one of the other guys who reported them with me to his home one night.

Political correctness gone mad, thank you to all the latte socialists who created this mess.

They must be loving the attention and notoriety they’re getting. They’ll probably show up as intruders on Big Brother in a few years’ time (perish the thought that BB will still be around in 2-5 years….)

Loan these girls to Bill Henson for a weekend.

Punishment? The brutal slapping on the wrist they’re to get? Horrific stuff…

Its a shame that no one can post video of them recieving their punishment.

LOL. Thats hardly old. She is probably as trashy as the rest of the folk who hang out there smoking their filthy durries.

Well, that’s encouraging. Evidently some people came forward with information. The woman (she’s 36!) might be charged too. Causing public affray or somesuch, possibly.