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You want me to work Sunday? Then pay what’s fair!

By Marcus Paul 5 August 2015 98

cashier at till retail

So this debate has reared up again. Penalty rates.

Depending on which side of the argument you might be – I believe something needs to be done, and soon.

The rates (some upwards of $50 per hour) are quite simply unsustainable in the long term if we need a strong and growing small business sector.

However, this new push for an overhaul of penalty rates comes with a twist.

The latest discussion paper recommends making a distinction between penalty rates for medical and emergency workers and those for the retail and hospitality workers.

So, the question is – should emergency workers keep shift penalties, while taking from restaurant and retail workers? Is it a case of there now being no difference between Saturdays and Sundays?

Also, some argue that if workers have to front up for their job on a Sunday, then they should be adequately compensated.

To be honest, and hopefully without any disrespect, there is a big difference between a nurse administering treatment and a fashion store worker selling a shirt, even if both are working the Sunday shift.

One thing is certain in this debate. Unions will fire up, and phrases like ‘work choices’ will fly around. All of this will mean nought to your average struggling local small business owner, who has been complaining loud about affordability for such a long time.

Many I speak to say they can no longer open on a Sunday, or if they do, they won’t bring in staff at all instead working themselves or roping in family members to help.

It’s tough all round, and the number office and shop vacancies in our town centres is testament to this.

Would a change to penalty rates be a quick fix? Probably not but it might just help.

Should Canberra workers continue to receive weekend penalty rates?

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Marcus Paul is the host of Canberra Live 3pm weekdays on 2CC.

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You want me to work Sunday? Then pay what’s fair!
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SunRider 8:36 pm 30 Aug 15

As I observed previously. Half of Canberra is Public Servants and the other half thinks they are.

A slight exaggeration, there is a small slice of contractors like me, burning the midnight oil actually trying to get something done, against the odds, knowing full well the Public Servants will casually roll up on Monday and after their extended Tea Break (when they’ll let the phone ring off the hook) they’ll go into THE conference and screw it all up again.

Or those Public Servants might walk into a prison yard on Monday morning, cop some foul abuse, break up a fight, or maybe come into contact with someone else’s bodily fluids. Or the cop who will attend yet another domestic violence incident, the nurse who attends to the sick and dying….need I go on?

So tired of hearing the usual guff about Public Servants. I had to leave the PS in order to put a stop to working unpaid weekends. No penalties, not even the usual hourly rate. I wasn’t the only one doing it either

chewy14 3:06 pm 30 Aug 15

rubaiyat said :

This seems to be the much fairer system we are working to:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-08-29/7-eleven-half-pay-scam-exposed/6734174

So you can get your “Best of…” hot dog or slurpee cheaper when YOU want.

All part of the Internet of Things, where everybody steals the work of everybody else.

Someone stole my friends car last week.

It’s clear proof of the society we’re moving to, where crime and thievery are regular everyday occyrences for everyone.

Oh wait, no it isn’t.

Rotten_berry 11:01 pm 29 Aug 15

What’s so terrible about places having to closing sundays anyway? People might have to spend time with friends and family rather than engaging in mindless 24/7 consumerism? There is more to life than GDP. All too often public servants don’t realise how good they have it with their mon-fri 36.75 hour work weeks, and are horrified to pay an extra 50c for their fair trade soy latte on a sunday. The USA’s “flexible” labour market gives them the highest labour productivity in the world on paper, but it doesn’t seem to make them any happier.

rommeldog56 8:44 pm 29 Aug 15

rubaiyat said :

As I observed previously. Half of Canberra is Public Servants and the other half thinks they are.

A slight exaggeration, there is a small slice of contractors like me, burning the midnight oil actually trying to get something done, against the odds, knowing full well the Public Servants will casually roll up on Monday and after their extended Tea Break (when they’ll let the phone ring off the hook) they’ll go into THE conference and screw it all up again.

Have u ever seen said bludging public servants working 24+ hour days through the Senater Estimates process, to implement Government in an unrealistic (politicallt motivated) timeframe, to meet the timeframe for preparation of the Annual Federal Budget & Additional Estimates. Mang Gov’t Dept’s have cars parked outside on the weekends – why ? No, its not because those workers wont use public transport. Its because they have to work – often unpaid – on weekends to get the job done.

Over the past 30 years, I have worked in both the public & private sectors (about 70/30). Each has its own deadbeat staff & inefficiencies. The main difference is that the public service is highly politically charged + ultra poorly lead by the Senior Executive Service (who all want to “lead”, not “work”).

rubaiyat 1:12 pm 29 Aug 15

rommeldog56 said :

rubaiyat said :

Don’t get me wrong I’d be happy if all the public servants in this town could be contacted before 10, after 4 and any time that wasn’t coffee break, smoko or lunch, in between their conferences and “training” of course.

Maybe we should wait for that to happen first before we change penalty rates.

Yet another over generalisation and sensationalist conclusion that in fact bears no resemblence to reality.

Then I too have a observation about private sector workers – hold on – I’ll just put on my over generalisation & sensationalist hat……

Ever been to a cafe & received poor service – not even polite. I have – more regularly in Canberra than I think necessary.
Ever tried to get service in a retail outlet in Canberra when the staff are just standing around chatting ? I have – regularly.
Ever tried to get a tradie in Canberra to do an inspection & quote – I have. Damned hard in Canberra. And when u do get a quote, its quite a bit higher than elsewhere on Oz.

Ergo, all workers in the private sector (at least in Canberra) need to drop smoko’s, tea breaks, toilet breaks, lunches, open on time, claiming tax deductions for work expenses, etc.

As I observed previously. Half of Canberra is Public Servants and the other half thinks they are.

A slight exaggeration, there is a small slice of contractors like me, burning the midnight oil actually trying to get something done, against the odds, knowing full well the Public Servants will casually roll up on Monday and after their extended Tea Break (when they’ll let the phone ring off the hook) they’ll go into THE conference and screw it all up again.

rubaiyat 1:07 pm 29 Aug 15

This seems to be the much fairer system we are working to:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-08-29/7-eleven-half-pay-scam-exposed/6734174

So you can get your “Best of…” hot dog or slurpee cheaper when YOU want.

All part of the Internet of Things, where everybody steals the work of everybody else.

rommeldog56 7:05 am 17 Aug 15

rubaiyat said :

Don’t get me wrong I’d be happy if all the public servants in this town could be contacted before 10, after 4 and any time that wasn’t coffee break, smoko or lunch, in between their conferences and “training” of course.

Maybe we should wait for that to happen first before we change penalty rates.

Yet another over generalisation and sensationalist conclusion that in fact bears no resemblence to reality.

Then I too have a observation about private sector workers – hold on – I’ll just put on my over generalisation & sensationalist hat……

Ever been to a cafe & received poor service – not even polite. I have – more regularly in Canberra than I think necessary.
Ever tried to get service in a retail outlet in Canberra when the staff are just standing around chatting ? I have – regularly.
Ever tried to get a tradie in Canberra to do an inspection & quote – I have. Damned hard in Canberra. And when u do get a quote, its quite a bit higher than elsewhere on Oz.

Ergo, all workers in the private sector (at least in Canberra) need to drop smoko’s, tea breaks, toilet breaks, lunches, open on time, claiming tax deductions for work expenses, etc.

Maya123 10:40 am 15 Aug 15

rubaiyat said :

Maya123 said :

Ghettosmurf87 said :

Maya123 said :

More sensible, is perhaps the suggestion I’ve seen from someone here to get rid of penalty rates for daytime, but increase the hourly rate. That deserves consideration, because why should someone be paid more for working one day than someone doing the same work and hours on another day. That’s discrimination! And the argument that people need the extra money from Sunday to pay rent, etc, doesn’t take into consideration those that don’t work or have the opportunity to work Sundays, who also have expenses.

I agree with the idea that Sunday pay should be no different to Saturday pay, the religious part of the differentiation is no longer prevalent. But weekends are still a common social construct that most of society follows.

Maya, once again, you have missed the point. Working on the weekend is unattractive to most people as that is the time period in which many social activities are scheduled and is also when the majority of the population is not working and so is able to interact with each other outside of work. If you were to make a flat rate across all 7 days, what incentive would there be for anyone to work on the weekend? You mean I can pick up the same money Mon-Fri and then socialise with all my other friends on the weekend like most of society? Awesome says the usual weekend worker. The only usual incentive to work weekends is the extra pay. Same as the only usual reason to work graveyard shifts. You don’t do it because it is socially convenient and fits you’re lifestyle, you do it because it is made worthwhile through penalty rates and therefore you agree to sacrifice the community standard of free time for it.

You simply come across as upset that someone on a weekend gets paid more for a job then someone who doesn’t work a weekend. If society was truly a 24/7 liquid construct, you would have a point. But it is not. The simple reality is that the majority of workers and society in general is structured around the Mon-Fri 8 hours during the day work week. Be this from schools, to social services, to banks etc.

When requiring someone to work outside of that structure, we pay them more. As history demonstrated that employers would rather strong-arm employees into working these hours without that extra compensation, the compensation, in the form of penalty rates, needed to be legislated so that workers were not exploited by employers seeking to maximise profits at their expense.

“Maya, once again, you have missed the point. Working on the weekend is unattractive to most people…”

What point have I missed? That if everyone is paid the same rate and if enough people don’t want to work certain hours/days they will be paid more as an incentive to work those times? Is that what I have missed? And if it isn’t necessary to pay more for those hours, it means enough people are willing to work those hours. The market will decide. Some people object to working weekends, but not everyone minds working on the weekend. They will get other days off.

“You simply come across as upset that someone on a weekend gets paid more for a job then someone who doesn’t work a weekend. If society was truly a 24/7 liquid construct, you would have a point. But it is not. The simple reality is that the majority of workers and society in general is structured around the Mon-Fri 8 hours during the day work week. Be this from schools, to social services, to banks etc.”

Times have changed and it is getting to be very much more a seven day a week society. Not everyone has school aged children, banks can be accessed much of the time by 24 hour internet, most people no longer save Sunday for church, etc. There are both advantages and disadvantages to a seven day a week society, with flexible hours. Travel to and from work is spread out more and would ease congestion is one advantage. Public transport would be less stressed. Some things, such as childcare would need to catch up, and in some places have, but other places it still needs to. Childcare would find it easier to offer, say weekend childcare, if they didn’t have to pay workers more to work on the weekend. It’s a flow on effect.

Certainly be nice for those who have a regular 9 to 5 M- F job and will get how many cents off their cappuccino. Or will the owner just keep it?

Don’t get me wrong I’d be happy if all the public servants in this town could be contacted before 10, after 4 and any time that wasn’t coffee break, smoko or lunch, in between their conferences and “training” of course.

Maybe we should wait for that to happen first before we change penalty rates.

“Don’t get me wrong I’d be happy if all the public servants in this town could be contacted before 10, after 4”
I was never a public servant, but where I worked most of my working career, because of flexi hours there was usually someone in attendance from 8am (often earlier) to at least 6pm (often later). The three of us in our section spread out hours between us so we could offer a better service to our customers, and it suited our individual body clocks too. We loved flexi time, both from a personal point of view, and the better service by utilising it we could offer customers. Our core hours were 10-12am and 2-4pm, and so we were usually all there those hours, but we spread out our hours either direction from that. More often than not someone could be found there at lunchtime too; maybe eating lunch, but they could leave that to help someone. Worked well and this was appreciated by people who came to see us, as they could usually find assistance from 8am to 6pm, at the minimum. Even, one of the occasional nights working late, I had the bell go for assistance at 9pm. I thought how did they know I was there, hidden away, but I suspect in a place that commonly had people there at all hours, they were just trying their luck. Naturally I came out to help.
People working different hours can often offer a better service, than everyone working nine to five.

chewy14 10:09 am 15 Aug 15

rubaiyat said :

chewy14 said :

rubaiyat said :

Maya123 said :

rubaiyat said :

Maya123 said :

recyclewarrior said :

If the public want to shop 24/7 they have to be prepared to pay for the privilege of doing so. If you run a business and cannot price your stock so it covers proper wages for staff working unsociable hours then perhaps it is the customer who should pay a premium price for the article they wish to purchase on a Sunday, be it shoes or food rather than the worker being penalized. If that doesn’t work then the business does not open those hours and the customer has to accept they need to change their expectations of 24/7 availability.

Can you please explain your logic of why you consider working hours on Sunday are more unsociable than working the same hours on Saturday.

Currently Sunday is about the only day we can get to see our children or them to see each other.

But as good and loyal corporate vassals we would not want to at all inconvenience the “needs” of business. Corporations have feelings too, and they feel their employees are selfishly putting themselves ahead of their owners who have so generously looked after them.

If the company can send their employees emails after hours telling them not to show up Monday, the least the employees is give their all as cheaply as possible over the weekend.

“Currently Sunday is about the only day we can get to see our children or them to see each other.”

That still doesn’t explain why Sunday should get more pay than Saturday. Other people might find Saturday more convenient to see their family, or Thursday, etc, or whatever the person individually considers convenient. It would be impossible to cater for everyone’s personal, individual preferred day off. If Sunday isn’t convenient for you don’t take a job that involves Sunday work. There were jobs I didn’t apply for if they weren’t convenient to my lifestyle, even though the job looked a good one. There has been no suggestion here that people won’t still get a couple of days off a week and that people will be forced to work seven day weeks.

There has been no suggestion because that has nothing to do with people being able to get together on a common day off, or being compensated for the deprivation of normal social contact. I waited when I was a student and the only reason I did the graveyard shift and weekends, leaving me a physical wreck, was the money.

You keep saying over and over that you only did odd hours a long time ago and only briefly.

That was the choice you made, even sacrificing pay to quit weekend work, and does not help your case that people who really have no choice, because of their jobs, should not be compensated.

The point is that they will be compensated if no one is willing to work those hours on those days but the businesses shouldn’t simply be forced to pay them extra, just because it’s a Sunday (or a Saturday).

If you remove the penalty loading and employees refuse to work on Sundays, then businesses will have to choose to pay higher rates on those days. If employers don’t have problems getting workers that are freely willing to work those days because it suits their lifestyles, then why should they get paid more?

What is special about that day over others?

We have gone over that multiple times and I bet you are only arguing this because you know you will not be compelled to work those hours at low wages.

The greatest contribution the Jews gave all civilisation was the invention of the universal day of rest not just for the idle rich.

We do not have the mythical level playing nor freedom to choose that you claim.

Children did not just refuse to work down coal mines, or woman decline to work for half pay to subsequently be sacked when they married.

We do not want to revisit every single past struggle for equity just because you refuse to remember history, or never learnt it in the first place.

I’m arguing it because you refuse to answer with anything reasonable other than talk about the USA or children working in coal mines , things which no one has mentioned or discussed except yourself. Once again, we aren’t suggesting anything other than removing the requirement to pay extra for work on Sunday, just because it’s a supposed historical “rest” day.

And yes, I did work for those sorts of wages when I was younger, the fact that I now have a higher paying job is completely irrelevant. I’ve repeatedly suggested that if the Sunday rates are lowered, the normal rate should be raised to compensate.

rubaiyat 10:02 pm 14 Aug 15

Maya123 said :

Ghettosmurf87 said :

Maya123 said :

More sensible, is perhaps the suggestion I’ve seen from someone here to get rid of penalty rates for daytime, but increase the hourly rate. That deserves consideration, because why should someone be paid more for working one day than someone doing the same work and hours on another day. That’s discrimination! And the argument that people need the extra money from Sunday to pay rent, etc, doesn’t take into consideration those that don’t work or have the opportunity to work Sundays, who also have expenses.

I agree with the idea that Sunday pay should be no different to Saturday pay, the religious part of the differentiation is no longer prevalent. But weekends are still a common social construct that most of society follows.

Maya, once again, you have missed the point. Working on the weekend is unattractive to most people as that is the time period in which many social activities are scheduled and is also when the majority of the population is not working and so is able to interact with each other outside of work. If you were to make a flat rate across all 7 days, what incentive would there be for anyone to work on the weekend? You mean I can pick up the same money Mon-Fri and then socialise with all my other friends on the weekend like most of society? Awesome says the usual weekend worker. The only usual incentive to work weekends is the extra pay. Same as the only usual reason to work graveyard shifts. You don’t do it because it is socially convenient and fits you’re lifestyle, you do it because it is made worthwhile through penalty rates and therefore you agree to sacrifice the community standard of free time for it.

You simply come across as upset that someone on a weekend gets paid more for a job then someone who doesn’t work a weekend. If society was truly a 24/7 liquid construct, you would have a point. But it is not. The simple reality is that the majority of workers and society in general is structured around the Mon-Fri 8 hours during the day work week. Be this from schools, to social services, to banks etc.

When requiring someone to work outside of that structure, we pay them more. As history demonstrated that employers would rather strong-arm employees into working these hours without that extra compensation, the compensation, in the form of penalty rates, needed to be legislated so that workers were not exploited by employers seeking to maximise profits at their expense.

“Maya, once again, you have missed the point. Working on the weekend is unattractive to most people…”

What point have I missed? That if everyone is paid the same rate and if enough people don’t want to work certain hours/days they will be paid more as an incentive to work those times? Is that what I have missed? And if it isn’t necessary to pay more for those hours, it means enough people are willing to work those hours. The market will decide. Some people object to working weekends, but not everyone minds working on the weekend. They will get other days off.

“You simply come across as upset that someone on a weekend gets paid more for a job then someone who doesn’t work a weekend. If society was truly a 24/7 liquid construct, you would have a point. But it is not. The simple reality is that the majority of workers and society in general is structured around the Mon-Fri 8 hours during the day work week. Be this from schools, to social services, to banks etc.”

Times have changed and it is getting to be very much more a seven day a week society. Not everyone has school aged children, banks can be accessed much of the time by 24 hour internet, most people no longer save Sunday for church, etc. There are both advantages and disadvantages to a seven day a week society, with flexible hours. Travel to and from work is spread out more and would ease congestion is one advantage. Public transport would be less stressed. Some things, such as childcare would need to catch up, and in some places have, but other places it still needs to. Childcare would find it easier to offer, say weekend childcare, if they didn’t have to pay workers more to work on the weekend. It’s a flow on effect.

Certainly be nice for those who have a regular 9 to 5 M- F job and will get how many cents off their cappuccino. Or will the owner just keep it?

Don’t get me wrong I’d be happy if all the public servants in this town could be contacted before 10, after 4 and any time that wasn’t coffee break, smoko or lunch, in between their conferences and “training” of course.

Maybe we should wait for that to happen first before we change penalty rates.

Masquara 8:24 pm 14 Aug 15

I’d rather the teens were paid less on weekends, and the full-time workers had their pay rate increased using the penalty-rate money saved.

Maya123 4:18 pm 14 Aug 15

Ghettosmurf87 said :

Maya123 said :

More sensible, is perhaps the suggestion I’ve seen from someone here to get rid of penalty rates for daytime, but increase the hourly rate. That deserves consideration, because why should someone be paid more for working one day than someone doing the same work and hours on another day. That’s discrimination! And the argument that people need the extra money from Sunday to pay rent, etc, doesn’t take into consideration those that don’t work or have the opportunity to work Sundays, who also have expenses.

I agree with the idea that Sunday pay should be no different to Saturday pay, the religious part of the differentiation is no longer prevalent. But weekends are still a common social construct that most of society follows.

Maya, once again, you have missed the point. Working on the weekend is unattractive to most people as that is the time period in which many social activities are scheduled and is also when the majority of the population is not working and so is able to interact with each other outside of work. If you were to make a flat rate across all 7 days, what incentive would there be for anyone to work on the weekend? You mean I can pick up the same money Mon-Fri and then socialise with all my other friends on the weekend like most of society? Awesome says the usual weekend worker. The only usual incentive to work weekends is the extra pay. Same as the only usual reason to work graveyard shifts. You don’t do it because it is socially convenient and fits you’re lifestyle, you do it because it is made worthwhile through penalty rates and therefore you agree to sacrifice the community standard of free time for it.

You simply come across as upset that someone on a weekend gets paid more for a job then someone who doesn’t work a weekend. If society was truly a 24/7 liquid construct, you would have a point. But it is not. The simple reality is that the majority of workers and society in general is structured around the Mon-Fri 8 hours during the day work week. Be this from schools, to social services, to banks etc.

When requiring someone to work outside of that structure, we pay them more. As history demonstrated that employers would rather strong-arm employees into working these hours without that extra compensation, the compensation, in the form of penalty rates, needed to be legislated so that workers were not exploited by employers seeking to maximise profits at their expense.

“Maya, once again, you have missed the point. Working on the weekend is unattractive to most people…”

What point have I missed? That if everyone is paid the same rate and if enough people don’t want to work certain hours/days they will be paid more as an incentive to work those times? Is that what I have missed? And if it isn’t necessary to pay more for those hours, it means enough people are willing to work those hours. The market will decide. Some people object to working weekends, but not everyone minds working on the weekend. They will get other days off.

“You simply come across as upset that someone on a weekend gets paid more for a job then someone who doesn’t work a weekend. If society was truly a 24/7 liquid construct, you would have a point. But it is not. The simple reality is that the majority of workers and society in general is structured around the Mon-Fri 8 hours during the day work week. Be this from schools, to social services, to banks etc.”

Times have changed and it is getting to be very much more a seven day a week society. Not everyone has school aged children, banks can be accessed much of the time by 24 hour internet, most people no longer save Sunday for church, etc. There are both advantages and disadvantages to a seven day a week society, with flexible hours. Travel to and from work is spread out more and would ease congestion is one advantage. Public transport would be less stressed. Some things, such as childcare would need to catch up, and in some places have, but other places it still needs to. Childcare would find it easier to offer, say weekend childcare, if they didn’t have to pay workers more to work on the weekend. It’s a flow on effect.

Ghettosmurf87 3:34 pm 14 Aug 15

Maya123 said :

More sensible, is perhaps the suggestion I’ve seen from someone here to get rid of penalty rates for daytime, but increase the hourly rate. That deserves consideration, because why should someone be paid more for working one day than someone doing the same work and hours on another day. That’s discrimination! And the argument that people need the extra money from Sunday to pay rent, etc, doesn’t take into consideration those that don’t work or have the opportunity to work Sundays, who also have expenses.

I agree with the idea that Sunday pay should be no different to Saturday pay, the religious part of the differentiation is no longer prevalent. But weekends are still a common social construct that most of society follows.

Maya, once again, you have missed the point. Working on the weekend is unattractive to most people as that is the time period in which many social activities are scheduled and is also when the majority of the population is not working and so is able to interact with each other outside of work. If you were to make a flat rate across all 7 days, what incentive would there be for anyone to work on the weekend? You mean I can pick up the same money Mon-Fri and then socialise with all my other friends on the weekend like most of society? Awesome says the usual weekend worker. The only usual incentive to work weekends is the extra pay. Same as the only usual reason to work graveyard shifts. You don’t do it because it is socially convenient and fits you’re lifestyle, you do it because it is made worthwhile through penalty rates and therefore you agree to sacrifice the community standard of free time for it.

You simply come across as upset that someone on a weekend gets paid more for a job then someone who doesn’t work a weekend. If society was truly a 24/7 liquid construct, you would have a point. But it is not. The simple reality is that the majority of workers and society in general is structured around the Mon-Fri 8 hours during the day work week. Be this from schools, to social services, to banks etc.

When requiring someone to work outside of that structure, we pay them more. As history demonstrated that employers would rather strong-arm employees into working these hours without that extra compensation, the compensation, in the form of penalty rates, needed to be legislated so that workers were not exploited by employers seeking to maximise profits at their expense.

JC 3:26 pm 14 Aug 15

rubaiyat said :

chewy14 said :

rubaiyat said :

Maya123 said :

rubaiyat said :

Maya123 said :

recyclewarrior said :

If the public want to shop 24/7 they have to be prepared to pay for the privilege of doing so. If you run a business and cannot price your stock so it covers proper wages for staff working unsociable hours then perhaps it is the customer who should pay a premium price for the article they wish to purchase on a Sunday, be it shoes or food rather than the worker being penalized. If that doesn’t work then the business does not open those hours and the customer has to accept they need to change their expectations of 24/7 availability.

Can you please explain your logic of why you consider working hours on Sunday are more unsociable than working the same hours on Saturday.

Currently Sunday is about the only day we can get to see our children or them to see each other.

But as good and loyal corporate vassals we would not want to at all inconvenience the “needs” of business. Corporations have feelings too, and they feel their employees are selfishly putting themselves ahead of their owners who have so generously looked after them.

If the company can send their employees emails after hours telling them not to show up Monday, the least the employees is give their all as cheaply as possible over the weekend.

“Currently Sunday is about the only day we can get to see our children or them to see each other.”

That still doesn’t explain why Sunday should get more pay than Saturday. Other people might find Saturday more convenient to see their family, or Thursday, etc, or whatever the person individually considers convenient. It would be impossible to cater for everyone’s personal, individual preferred day off. If Sunday isn’t convenient for you don’t take a job that involves Sunday work. There were jobs I didn’t apply for if they weren’t convenient to my lifestyle, even though the job looked a good one. There has been no suggestion here that people won’t still get a couple of days off a week and that people will be forced to work seven day weeks.

There has been no suggestion because that has nothing to do with people being able to get together on a common day off, or being compensated for the deprivation of normal social contact. I waited when I was a student and the only reason I did the graveyard shift and weekends, leaving me a physical wreck, was the money.

You keep saying over and over that you only did odd hours a long time ago and only briefly.

That was the choice you made, even sacrificing pay to quit weekend work, and does not help your case that people who really have no choice, because of their jobs, should not be compensated.

The point is that they will be compensated if no one is willing to work those hours on those days but the businesses shouldn’t simply be forced to pay them extra, just because it’s a Sunday (or a Saturday).

If you remove the penalty loading and employees refuse to work on Sundays, then businesses will have to choose to pay higher rates on those days. If employers don’t have problems getting workers that are freely willing to work those days because it suits their lifestyles, then why should they get paid more?

What is special about that day over others?

We have gone over that multiple times and I bet you are only arguing this because you know you will not be compelled to work those hours at low wages.

The greatest contribution the Jews gave all civilisation was the invention of the universal day of rest not just for the idle rich.

We do not have the mythical level playing nor freedom to choose that you claim.

Children did not just refuse to work down coal mines, or woman decline to work for half pay to subsequently be sacked when they married.

We do not want to revisit every single past struggle for equity just because you refuse to remember history, or never learnt it in the first place.

Though even in Israel, whilst Saturday may be the day of rest, it is only the day of rest for some. Others do of course need to work, mostly in hospitality, service and tourism industries. So very much a two tiered system. No idea if they get penalty rates or not.

Maya123 3:04 pm 14 Aug 15

rubaiyat said :

chewy14 said :

rubaiyat said :

Maya123 said :

rubaiyat said :

Maya123 said :

recyclewarrior said :

If the public want to shop 24/7 they have to be prepared to pay for the privilege of doing so. If you run a business and cannot price your stock so it covers proper wages for staff working unsociable hours then perhaps it is the customer who should pay a premium price for the article they wish to purchase on a Sunday, be it shoes or food rather than the worker being penalized. If that doesn’t work then the business does not open those hours and the customer has to accept they need to change their expectations of 24/7 availability.

Can you please explain your logic of why you consider working hours on Sunday are more unsociable than working the same hours on Saturday.

Currently Sunday is about the only day we can get to see our children or them to see each other.

But as good and loyal corporate vassals we would not want to at all inconvenience the “needs” of business. Corporations have feelings too, and they feel their employees are selfishly putting themselves ahead of their owners who have so generously looked after them.

If the company can send their employees emails after hours telling them not to show up Monday, the least the employees is give their all as cheaply as possible over the weekend.

“Currently Sunday is about the only day we can get to see our children or them to see each other.”

That still doesn’t explain why Sunday should get more pay than Saturday. Other people might find Saturday more convenient to see their family, or Thursday, etc, or whatever the person individually considers convenient. It would be impossible to cater for everyone’s personal, individual preferred day off. If Sunday isn’t convenient for you don’t take a job that involves Sunday work. There were jobs I didn’t apply for if they weren’t convenient to my lifestyle, even though the job looked a good one. There has been no suggestion here that people won’t still get a couple of days off a week and that people will be forced to work seven day weeks.

There has been no suggestion because that has nothing to do with people being able to get together on a common day off, or being compensated for the deprivation of normal social contact. I waited when I was a student and the only reason I did the graveyard shift and weekends, leaving me a physical wreck, was the money.

You keep saying over and over that you only did odd hours a long time ago and only briefly.

That was the choice you made, even sacrificing pay to quit weekend work, and does not help your case that people who really have no choice, because of their jobs, should not be compensated.

The point is that they will be compensated if no one is willing to work those hours on those days but the businesses shouldn’t simply be forced to pay them extra, just because it’s a Sunday (or a Saturday).

If you remove the penalty loading and employees refuse to work on Sundays, then businesses will have to choose to pay higher rates on those days. If employers don’t have problems getting workers that are freely willing to work those days because it suits their lifestyles, then why should they get paid more?

What is special about that day over others?

We have gone over that multiple times and I bet you are only arguing this because you know you will not be compelled to work those hours at low wages.

The greatest contribution the Jews gave all civilisation was the invention of the universal day of rest not just for the idle rich.

We do not have the mythical level playing nor freedom to choose that you claim.

Children did not just refuse to work down coal mines, or woman decline to work for half pay to subsequently be sacked when they married.

We do not want to revisit every single past struggle for equity just because you refuse to remember history, or never learnt it in the first place.

“The greatest contribution the Jews gave all civilisation was the invention of the universal day of rest”

But you’ve been arguing how special Sunday is, but now you want Saturday as well!!

More sensible, is perhaps the suggestion I’ve seen from someone here to get rid of penalty rates for daytime, but increase the hourly rate. That deserves consideration, because why should someone be paid more for working one day than someone doing the same work and hours on another day. That’s discrimination! And the argument that people need the extra money from Sunday to pay rent, etc, doesn’t take into consideration those that don’t work or have the opportunity to work Sundays, who also have expenses.

rubaiyat 2:47 pm 14 Aug 15

chewy14 said :

rubaiyat said :

Maya123 said :

rubaiyat said :

Maya123 said :

recyclewarrior said :

If the public want to shop 24/7 they have to be prepared to pay for the privilege of doing so. If you run a business and cannot price your stock so it covers proper wages for staff working unsociable hours then perhaps it is the customer who should pay a premium price for the article they wish to purchase on a Sunday, be it shoes or food rather than the worker being penalized. If that doesn’t work then the business does not open those hours and the customer has to accept they need to change their expectations of 24/7 availability.

Can you please explain your logic of why you consider working hours on Sunday are more unsociable than working the same hours on Saturday.

Currently Sunday is about the only day we can get to see our children or them to see each other.

But as good and loyal corporate vassals we would not want to at all inconvenience the “needs” of business. Corporations have feelings too, and they feel their employees are selfishly putting themselves ahead of their owners who have so generously looked after them.

If the company can send their employees emails after hours telling them not to show up Monday, the least the employees is give their all as cheaply as possible over the weekend.

“Currently Sunday is about the only day we can get to see our children or them to see each other.”

That still doesn’t explain why Sunday should get more pay than Saturday. Other people might find Saturday more convenient to see their family, or Thursday, etc, or whatever the person individually considers convenient. It would be impossible to cater for everyone’s personal, individual preferred day off. If Sunday isn’t convenient for you don’t take a job that involves Sunday work. There were jobs I didn’t apply for if they weren’t convenient to my lifestyle, even though the job looked a good one. There has been no suggestion here that people won’t still get a couple of days off a week and that people will be forced to work seven day weeks.

There has been no suggestion because that has nothing to do with people being able to get together on a common day off, or being compensated for the deprivation of normal social contact. I waited when I was a student and the only reason I did the graveyard shift and weekends, leaving me a physical wreck, was the money.

You keep saying over and over that you only did odd hours a long time ago and only briefly.

That was the choice you made, even sacrificing pay to quit weekend work, and does not help your case that people who really have no choice, because of their jobs, should not be compensated.

The point is that they will be compensated if no one is willing to work those hours on those days but the businesses shouldn’t simply be forced to pay them extra, just because it’s a Sunday (or a Saturday).

If you remove the penalty loading and employees refuse to work on Sundays, then businesses will have to choose to pay higher rates on those days. If employers don’t have problems getting workers that are freely willing to work those days because it suits their lifestyles, then why should they get paid more?

What is special about that day over others?

We have gone over that multiple times and I bet you are only arguing this because you know you will not be compelled to work those hours at low wages.

The greatest contribution the Jews gave all civilisation was the invention of the universal day of rest not just for the idle rich.

We do not have the mythical level playing nor freedom to choose that you claim.

Children did not just refuse to work down coal mines, or woman decline to work for half pay to subsequently be sacked when they married.

We do not want to revisit every single past struggle for equity just because you refuse to remember history, or never learnt it in the first place.

Ghettosmurf87 2:09 pm 14 Aug 15

chewy14 said :

The point is that they will be compensated if no one is willing to work those hours on those days but the businesses shouldn’t simply be forced to pay them extra, just because it’s a Sunday (or a Saturday).

If you remove the penalty loading and employees refuse to work on Sundays, then businesses will have to choose to pay higher rates on those days. If employers don’t have problems getting workers that are freely willing to work those days because it suits their lifestyles, then why should they get paid more?

What is special about that day over others?

The problem with this is that it is contingent on those employees to be able to afford to take a stand and refuse to work for less money. Many of the workers on weekends rely on that money to make ends meet. As with the USA, the lower paid echelons of society can’t afford to say no to any form of paid employment, as they will sink further into poverty while doing so, so instead they accept whatever meagre rations their employers are willing to dole out.

If your option is to say no to work on a weekend for half the amount of usual and therefore be unable to pay rent and so become homeless while waiting for your employer to feel some pressure, or to accept half the pay you previously were, keep the roof over your head, but go without a meal each day, you really have no option at all.

chewy14 1:46 pm 14 Aug 15

rubaiyat said :

Maya123 said :

rubaiyat said :

Maya123 said :

recyclewarrior said :

If the public want to shop 24/7 they have to be prepared to pay for the privilege of doing so. If you run a business and cannot price your stock so it covers proper wages for staff working unsociable hours then perhaps it is the customer who should pay a premium price for the article they wish to purchase on a Sunday, be it shoes or food rather than the worker being penalized. If that doesn’t work then the business does not open those hours and the customer has to accept they need to change their expectations of 24/7 availability.

Can you please explain your logic of why you consider working hours on Sunday are more unsociable than working the same hours on Saturday.

Currently Sunday is about the only day we can get to see our children or them to see each other.

But as good and loyal corporate vassals we would not want to at all inconvenience the “needs” of business. Corporations have feelings too, and they feel their employees are selfishly putting themselves ahead of their owners who have so generously looked after them.

If the company can send their employees emails after hours telling them not to show up Monday, the least the employees is give their all as cheaply as possible over the weekend.

“Currently Sunday is about the only day we can get to see our children or them to see each other.”

That still doesn’t explain why Sunday should get more pay than Saturday. Other people might find Saturday more convenient to see their family, or Thursday, etc, or whatever the person individually considers convenient. It would be impossible to cater for everyone’s personal, individual preferred day off. If Sunday isn’t convenient for you don’t take a job that involves Sunday work. There were jobs I didn’t apply for if they weren’t convenient to my lifestyle, even though the job looked a good one. There has been no suggestion here that people won’t still get a couple of days off a week and that people will be forced to work seven day weeks.

There has been no suggestion because that has nothing to do with people being able to get together on a common day off, or being compensated for the deprivation of normal social contact. I waited when I was a student and the only reason I did the graveyard shift and weekends, leaving me a physical wreck, was the money.

You keep saying over and over that you only did odd hours a long time ago and only briefly.

That was the choice you made, even sacrificing pay to quit weekend work, and does not help your case that people who really have no choice, because of their jobs, should not be compensated.

The point is that they will be compensated if no one is willing to work those hours on those days but the businesses shouldn’t simply be forced to pay them extra, just because it’s a Sunday (or a Saturday).

If you remove the penalty loading and employees refuse to work on Sundays, then businesses will have to choose to pay higher rates on those days. If employers don’t have problems getting workers that are freely willing to work those days because it suits their lifestyles, then why should they get paid more?

What is special about that day over others?

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