Canberra police shooting victim awarded $8 million.

Skidd Marx said :

A big scary bamboo stick? Give me a break.

If I understand the events, one police officer had been beaten to the deck, and the second officer, trained in the use of the baton, had had it knocked from his hands. He could have thought “Oh, what I’m being beaten with by this madman is merely a shinai, which is a light bamboo implement incapable of doing me any serious harm so I will cop this flogging and all will be well” but it seems unlikely that anybody would actually think that way.

With your mate down, maybe crippled or dying, and your life apparently in peril, would you deliberately decide to be maimed or killed, or would you draw and shoot in the hope that you’d go home to your wife and children that evening? I know what I’d do.

I have nothing but sympathy for the officers involved.

This case is one of the hard ones. Police had to respond, but the response led to catastrophic injury. The courts are best placed to assess whether the police response breached any duty they may have had to Mr Crowley (and the appeal suggests little or none).

The fact that a considered decision (to compensate) can be made and then overturned suggests that the decision falls somewhere near the borderline. It may be the kind of case (like the swimmer/sandbar cases) that should have people talking about no-fault compensation as an alternative to the feast or famine answer.

Skidd Marx said :

A big scary bamboo stick? Give me a break.

Until you’ve been beaten with one, they look fairly innocuous. A mate of mine was attacked with a cane in Singapore’s Little India by someone who was having a break from reality. The assailant wasn’t particularly big, but was swinging like there was no tomorrow. It took four people to haul him off my mate, who had copped it for 5 or so minutes. Three weeks in hospital in Singapore, then flown to Brisbane where he spent a couple of months in physio.

Skidd Marx said :

I think Crowley & his long-suffering parents are entitled to every cent. Maybe now the police will realise how under-trained they are with regards to mental health issues. Furthermore the decision-making on that day from the cops involved was both inept and reckless. A big scary bamboo stick? Give me a break.

Yawn…another expert who clearly hasn’t even read the judgement. He didn’t get a cent and I’m glad the right decision was made. Crowley was a massive unit who would be capable of doing damage with any weapon. If you ever face an angry psychotic man you may learn something. Unlikely for a shiny bum like you though.

I think Crowley & his long-suffering parents are entitled to every cent. Maybe now the police will realise how under-trained they are with regards to mental health issues. Furthermore the decision-making on that day from the cops involved was both inept and reckless. A big scary bamboo stick? Give me a break.

This is the age old scenario of what came first the chicken or the egg? yes now things are bad for Mr Crowley and his family, and I am sure he feels sorry for himself every day, but had he not been a prolonged drug abuser would he have gone into the ‘psychotic state’ which caused his current situation?

Yes the mental health system needs to improve, but I think people also need to accept responsibility for their own actions. Drug induced psychosis happens a lot, but heaven forbid anyone condemn a poor addict for their life choices, it is always the fault of someone else.

Dr Koresh said

Shoot for the centre of mass, that’s what they teach all law enforcement folks. The neck isn’t the centre of mass, unless I’m much mistaken. A ninja stick may well be deadly in the hands of a ninja but I’m not so sure about someone who’s lost the plot. I don’t think Crowley should be given a butt-load of cash for committing a violent crime, but I’m disturbed by the fact that he was rendered a quadriplegic due to police actions. Paraplegia or even death would be understandable but this whole situation seems kinda f**ked-up. I mean, can you really blame someone suffering a psychotic break?

Aiming for the centre mass is what is taught but that does not mean the target will comply and stay still. The Police followed the training as provided Mr Crowley was the non compliant offender hell bent on rearranging the Police officer with what can be a lethal weapon.

DrKoresh said :

Girt_Hindrance said :

kakosi said :

You can’t expect a mentally ill person to understand or comply with a police order because well, they’re MENTALLY ILL. If I was being sarcastic I’d say why not shoot everyone that’s mentally ill (like they did in Hitler’s Germany)?

But realistically, the answer would seem to lie in re-establishing more longer-term hospital care and perhaps specialist mental health facilities to get some very sick and sometimes dangerous people into proper care.

I’d be happy for an increase in care and specialist mental health facilities and all that, but I’m also quite happy for the Police to take action required to protect themselves from any person who seems hell bent on inflicting their own issues on the public and Police.
I also think there’s a huge leap from shooting this guy who had a Police Officer in the ‘foetal position’ under a barrage of a beating, to your ‘sarcastic suggestion’ of ending the lives of anyone with a mental illness.
Cheers for the Hitler reference tho.

Shoot for the centre of mass, that’s what they teach all law enforcement folks. The neck isn’t the centre of mass, unless I’m much mistaken. A ninja stick may well be deadly in the hands of a ninja but I’m not so sure about someone who’s lost the plot. I don’t think Crowley should be given a butt-load of cash for committing a violent crime, but I’m disturbed by the fact that he was rendered a quadriplegic due to police actions. Paraplegia or even death would be understandable but this whole situation seems kinda f**ked-up. I mean, can you really blame someone suffering a psychotic break?

I don’t think anyone in their right mind could blame someone for not being in theirs, but I also don’t think they need to take a beating for it. I also don’t see how the Police could know how well this guy could use his bamboo stick to the detriment of others. I previously didn’t understand why Police used firearms against someone with a knife, but the fact is that some rare individuals can throw a blade more accurately than an inexperienced person can fire a gun.
I agree with your comments about centre of mass shooting, although I don’t see why the Police would want to deliberately hit this guy with a bullet in the head or neck, especially in an area where the public were about. These mistakes can happen, and as others previously have said, it’s taken multiple years to examine what the Officers had to deal with in seconds.
I also agree that the outcomes could have included a multitude of differences, I’m quite glad that this person hasn’t died, nor that have they profited from their whatever motivated attack on others.

I notice that the judges who heard the appeal are all Federal court judges.One has to wonder if there would have been a different outcome if it had been heard by the usual suspects.

It is the appalling state of the ACT mental health services that places people like Mr Crawley out in the community with insufficient treatment and support. This leaves the police left to handle the mess. It is the job of the police to protect the public, which is what they did in this instance.

It is the job of ACT mental health services to treat and support people with mental illness. It appears that in this instance, as with many others, mental health services failed miserably.
All too often, people with mental illness receive a cursory examination and basic level of treatment and rapidly sent back to their families or the community with no support or follow-up.

It should have been ACT Health on trial – not the AFP.

DrKoresh said :

Girt_Hindrance said :

kakosi said :

You can’t expect a mentally ill person to understand or comply with a police order because well, they’re MENTALLY ILL. If I was being sarcastic I’d say why not shoot everyone that’s mentally ill (like they did in Hitler’s Germany)?

But realistically, the answer would seem to lie in re-establishing more longer-term hospital care and perhaps specialist mental health facilities to get some very sick and sometimes dangerous people into proper care.

I’d be happy for an increase in care and specialist mental health facilities and all that, but I’m also quite happy for the Police to take action required to protect themselves from any person who seems hell bent on inflicting their own issues on the public and Police.
I also think there’s a huge leap from shooting this guy who had a Police Officer in the ‘foetal position’ under a barrage of a beating, to your ‘sarcastic suggestion’ of ending the lives of anyone with a mental illness.
Cheers for the Hitler reference tho.

Shoot for the centre of mass, that’s what they teach all law enforcement folks. The neck isn’t the centre of mass, unless I’m much mistaken. A ninja stick may well be deadly in the hands of a ninja but I’m not so sure about someone who’s lost the plot. I don’t think Crowley should be given a butt-load of cash for committing a violent crime, but I’m disturbed by the fact that he was rendered a quadriplegic due to police actions. Paraplegia or even death would be understandable but this whole situation seems kinda f**ked-up. I mean, can you really blame someone suffering a psychotic break?

I can’t recall the original judgement, but $8 million is probably the lifetime cost of care, not “a buttload of cash”. He’s hardly in a position to go out and party for the rest of hs life, is he? If there’s an element of punitive damages, then in this case and any other, they perhaps shouldn’t go to the individual, but to some other beneficiary like a charity.

Ultimately the taxpayer will largely pay for his care in one way or another – either through a court award, or through the welfare system (including the new NDIS). But his parents are burdened for now with providing a level of care they are less and less financially and physically able to provide.

And I think a spinal cord injury is consistent with police aiming for the centre of mass, the torso..

IP

DrKoresh said :

The neck isn’t the centre of mass, unless I’m much mistaken

Why do you assume that they were aiming for the neck, and not aiming for the centre of mass and missed. Have you ever fired a gun?

kakosi said :

If I was being sarcastic I’d say why not shoot everyone that’s mentally ill (like they did in Hitler’s Germany)?

Under Aktion T4, most mentally disabled persons were either injected or gassed, the latter being more prevelant and used to test technology before implementation as the Final Solution. The SS also used mentally disabled persons to clear minefields, normally by herding them through them. The more lucid became subjects of survivability experiments. Shooting was considered expensive, time-consuming, and untidy.

kakosi said :

But realistically, the answer would seem to lie in re-establishing more longer-term hospital care and perhaps specialist mental health facilities to get some very sick and sometimes dangerous people into proper care.

This would be a step in the right direction.

DrKoresh said :

Girt_Hindrance said :

kakosi said :

You can’t expect a mentally ill person to understand or comply with a police order because well, they’re MENTALLY ILL. If I was being sarcastic I’d say why not shoot everyone that’s mentally ill (like they did in Hitler’s Germany)?

But realistically, the answer would seem to lie in re-establishing more longer-term hospital care and perhaps specialist mental health facilities to get some very sick and sometimes dangerous people into proper care.

I’d be happy for an increase in care and specialist mental health facilities and all that, but I’m also quite happy for the Police to take action required to protect themselves from any person who seems hell bent on inflicting their own issues on the public and Police.
I also think there’s a huge leap from shooting this guy who had a Police Officer in the ‘foetal position’ under a barrage of a beating, to your ‘sarcastic suggestion’ of ending the lives of anyone with a mental illness.
Cheers for the Hitler reference tho.

Shoot for the centre of mass, that’s what they teach all law enforcement folks. The neck isn’t the centre of mass, unless I’m much mistaken. A ninja stick may well be deadly in the hands of a ninja but I’m not so sure about someone who’s lost the plot. I don’t think Crowley should be given a butt-load of cash for committing a violent crime, but I’m disturbed by the fact that he was rendered a quadriplegic due to police actions. Paraplegia or even death would be understandable but this whole situation seems kinda f**ked-up. I mean, can you really blame someone suffering a psychotic break?

Pistols aren’t renowned for their accuracy when shooting moving targets in high stress situations at the best of time.

Girt_Hindrance said :

kakosi said :

You can’t expect a mentally ill person to understand or comply with a police order because well, they’re MENTALLY ILL. If I was being sarcastic I’d say why not shoot everyone that’s mentally ill (like they did in Hitler’s Germany)?

But realistically, the answer would seem to lie in re-establishing more longer-term hospital care and perhaps specialist mental health facilities to get some very sick and sometimes dangerous people into proper care.

I’d be happy for an increase in care and specialist mental health facilities and all that, but I’m also quite happy for the Police to take action required to protect themselves from any person who seems hell bent on inflicting their own issues on the public and Police.
I also think there’s a huge leap from shooting this guy who had a Police Officer in the ‘foetal position’ under a barrage of a beating, to your ‘sarcastic suggestion’ of ending the lives of anyone with a mental illness.
Cheers for the Hitler reference tho.

Shoot for the centre of mass, that’s what they teach all law enforcement folks. The neck isn’t the centre of mass, unless I’m much mistaken. A ninja stick may well be deadly in the hands of a ninja but I’m not so sure about someone who’s lost the plot. I don’t think Crowley should be given a butt-load of cash for committing a violent crime, but I’m disturbed by the fact that he was rendered a quadriplegic due to police actions. Paraplegia or even death would be understandable but this whole situation seems kinda f**ked-up. I mean, can you really blame someone suffering a psychotic break?

kakosi said :

You can’t expect a mentally ill person to understand or comply with a police order because well, they’re MENTALLY ILL. If I was being sarcastic I’d say why not shoot everyone that’s mentally ill (like they did in Hitler’s Germany)?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwins_law

The outcome is much better then I ever expected

kakosi said :

You can’t expect a mentally ill person to understand or comply with a police order because well, they’re MENTALLY ILL. If I was being sarcastic I’d say why not shoot everyone that’s mentally ill (like they did in Hitler’s Germany)?

But realistically, the answer would seem to lie in re-establishing more longer-term hospital care and perhaps specialist mental health facilities to get some very sick and sometimes dangerous people into proper care.

I’d be happy for an increase in care and specialist mental health facilities and all that, but I’m also quite happy for the Police to take action required to protect themselves from any person who seems hell bent on inflicting their own issues on the public and Police.
I also think there’s a huge leap from shooting this guy who had a Police Officer in the ‘foetal position’ under a barrage of a beating, to your ‘sarcastic suggestion’ of ending the lives of anyone with a mental illness.
Cheers for the Hitler reference tho.

You can’t expect a mentally ill person to understand or comply with a police order because well, they’re MENTALLY ILL. If I was being sarcastic I’d say why not shoot everyone that’s mentally ill (like they did in Hitler’s Germany)?

But realistically, the answer would seem to lie in re-establishing more longer-term hospital care and perhaps specialist mental health facilities to get some very sick and sometimes dangerous people into proper care.

Good outcome……..finally.

Lazy I said :

ABC News is reporting that this decision was overturned:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-12-17/jonathan-crowley-loses-compensation/4431702

Oh Christ, I don’t even want to state an opinion on this, I’m just going sit and watch as RA goes wild.

ABC News is reporting that this decision was overturned:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-12-17/jonathan-crowley-loses-compensation/4431702

John got his just deserts!!!
When i first met john and his family i felt sorry for him but as the real story came out i lost all respect for him.
Karma has got him and will kill him.
He was a bad man before he was shot use of speed and dope sent him on the edge.
I feel for his father as he is a good man and very well respected in canberra.
I feel for the current careers and past careers as the abuse and assault they get on most shifts with john.
John has gone though more carers then any other person with a disability due to his attitude towards life and towards them
John was a dead shit before he got shot living on the dole still at his parents house at 34 years old smoking weed and we was paying for it all as tax payers to end up getting 8 million bucks for doing the wrong thing in life.
Out of the 7 kids his brothers and sisters are extremely successful except for john and another older brother that still sits and smokes bongs after care workers leave and they both live off the dole for the rest of there lives .
I have bets with other care workers that the 8 mill will be wasted on pro’s grog and junk that will collect dust.
if he even gets it!!
The guy is a time bomb he will have a heart attack at any time if he continues to refuse help on diet and exercise and smoking
He is the largest man i have ever seen and at over 6 foot tall puts massive strain on nurses backs with continuos work claims being made.
He was better off dead the impact he is causing on people lives around him is negative and sad.

Tooks said :

Kiron2222 said :

Talking too a few people about this surprised I was talking too a few witnesses and people who even knew the family.

Dude was having an anxiety attack and his parents called the cops for assistance, apparently he made a runner when the cops showed up and went too the shops where he had a complete and utter breakdown.

Where the payout I believe comes from is the fact that the Police at the shops cornered him and started antagonizing and insulting him, then one walked around behind him and shot him pretty much point blank execution style in the back, this seemed a bit far fetched but when looking it over again, saw that he was shot in the back of the neck.. not exactly “charging at police” or whatever bullcrap they were saying (reminds me of those activists “charging the Israeli soldiers” on the boat all shot in the back of the head and in the back.. yep shot in the back, defiantly signs of charging!.)

Apparently the cop has a well known history of being trigger happy and has many complaints against him for heavy handiness.. so yeah, turns out this is a pretty awful tale of police brutality that was sweeped under the rug.

(also lol at Kendo stick at being lethal, we got bashed with those things in Aikido as kids and are used by police in many countries as non-lethal weapons)

Next time, try at least skimming through the judgment before coming out with this uninformed dribble. You are way out of your depth.

@ Kiron2222 – I hope you go do some research, realise how incorrect you are and go hide in a hole. I love reading the riot act as there are always constructive opinions put forth and even if I do not agree with them, there is almost always some examples or links to read further information. Everyone is ready to research and provide facts. Then I read your ‘pearl of wisdom’ and cannot even fathom how someone can be so incorrect, if the basic facts of the case were any more easier to find then I would expect they would jump out of a bush and slap you. Did you not read any comments in the thread, any news articles or the judgement? Heard of google?

Kiron2222, you don’t seriously believe the utter tripe that you typed do you?

Kiron2222 said :

Talking too a few people about this surprised I was talking too a few witnesses and people who even knew the family.

Dude was having an anxiety attack and his parents called the cops for assistance, apparently he made a runner when the cops showed up and went too the shops where he had a complete and utter breakdown.

Where the payout I believe comes from is the fact that the Police at the shops cornered him and started antagonizing and insulting him, then one walked around behind him and shot him pretty much point blank execution style in the back, this seemed a bit far fetched but when looking it over again, saw that he was shot in the back of the neck.. not exactly “charging at police” or whatever bullcrap they were saying (reminds me of those activists “charging the Israeli soldiers” on the boat all shot in the back of the head and in the back.. yep shot in the back, defiantly signs of charging!.)

Apparently the cop has a well known history of being trigger happy and has many complaints against him for heavy handiness.. so yeah, turns out this is a pretty awful tale of police brutality that was sweeped under the rug.

Next time, try at least skimming through the judgment before coming out with this uninformed dribble. You are way out of your depth.

(also lol at Kendo stick at being lethal, we got bashed with those things in Aikido as kids and are used by police in many countries as non-lethal weapons)

Kiron2222 said :

Talking too a few people about this surprised I was talking too a few witnesses and people who even knew the family.

Dude was having an anxiety attack and his parents called the cops for assistance, apparently he made a runner when the cops showed up and went too the shops where he had a complete and utter breakdown.

Where the payout I believe comes from is the fact that the Police at the shops cornered him and started antagonizing and insulting him, then one walked around behind him and shot him pretty much point blank execution style in the back, this seemed a bit far fetched but when looking it over again, saw that he was shot in the back of the neck.. not exactly “charging at police” or whatever bullcrap they were saying (reminds me of those activists “charging the Israeli soldiers” on the boat all shot in the back of the head and in the back.. yep shot in the back, defiantly signs of charging!.)

Apparently the cop has a well known history of being trigger happy and has many complaints against him for heavy handiness.. so yeah, turns out this is a pretty awful tale of police brutality that was sweeped under the rug.

(also lol at Kendo stick at being lethal, we got bashed with those things in Aikido as kids and are used by police in many countries as non-lethal weapons)

LoL your comments are an idiotic and insulting, instead of making stuff up and trying to defame those involved, read the finding and you will be properly informed about what took place, which will hopefully prevent the dribble you have posted here from occuring again.

Aikido Chop!

Talking too a few people about this surprised I was talking too a few witnesses and people who even knew the family.

Dude was having an anxiety attack and his parents called the cops for assistance, apparently he made a runner when the cops showed up and went too the shops where he had a complete and utter breakdown.

Where the payout I believe comes from is the fact that the Police at the shops cornered him and started antagonizing and insulting him, then one walked around behind him and shot him pretty much point blank execution style in the back, this seemed a bit far fetched but when looking it over again, saw that he was shot in the back of the neck.. not exactly “charging at police” or whatever bullcrap they were saying (reminds me of those activists “charging the Israeli soldiers” on the boat all shot in the back of the head and in the back.. yep shot in the back, defiantly signs of charging!.)

Apparently the cop has a well known history of being trigger happy and has many complaints against him for heavy handiness.. so yeah, turns out this is a pretty awful tale of police brutality that was sweeped under the rug.

(also lol at Kendo stick at being lethal, we got bashed with those things in Aikido as kids and are used by police in many countries as non-lethal weapons)

matt31221 said :

I do muay thai now though – the best self defence.

You do realize you have confessed to be nothing but a well trained thug?

Henry82 said :

Spideydog said :

I can almost certainly guarantee Police in Oz will not allow using them for ” unarmed non-compliance”

see post #114

I’m well aware of post 114. I am saying that Oz police rules of use for Taser will most certainly not include unarmed non-compliance. In addition to that, each and every use is accountable and is scrutenised, which is also available to the public if required. My opinion is that the use of Batons, spray, or firearms have not become “common use” and as such I also don’t see that happening with taser with additional safeguards being the accountability and transparency of EACH and EVERY use.

Spideydog said :

I can almost certainly guarantee Police in Oz will not allow using them for ” unarmed non-compliance”

see post #114

Henry82 said :

Tooks said :

Interesting stuff. I just don’t think it will apply to Tasers though.

Just look at the US where tasers are used for (unarmed) non-compliance. (Not saying that will apply here in Australia, but just an example).

I can almost certainly guarantee Police in Oz will not allow using them for ” unarmed non-compliance”

Henry82 said :

Tooks said :

Interesting stuff. I just don’t think it will apply to Tasers though.

Just look at the US where tasers are used for (unarmed) non-compliance. (Not saying that will apply here in Australia, but just an example).

I’m stating the obvious here, but we are not the US and I believe they (in some states) are allowed to use it for pain compliance, which I don’t agree with. I saw a clip of a US cop Tasing an offender in the back as he was running away. Turns out the crook had a gun, but it shows why they have different rules about their use of force options.

Tooks said :

Interesting stuff. I just don’t think it will apply to Tasers though.

Just look at the US where tasers are used for (unarmed) non-compliance. (Not saying that will apply here in Australia, but just an example).

LSWCHP said :

Tooks said :

But if the cops start to think that tasering someone is just a normal part of the daily grind, rather than being the last resort before smoking some bad guy, we’re going to end up with a lot of Tasees, and more than an occasional dead guy.

Why would they start to think tasering someone is normal? .

Tasers – whether people like them or not – will eventually be rolled out to all ACT police. Correct use and accountability are the key.

The potential problem is a psychological phenomenon called “normalisation of deviance”. See http://www.trainingzone.co.uk/blogs/steve001/inspiredblog/normalisation-deviance for a pretty good description of what happens, or just use Google. I have a friend with a PhD in psychology who recently described this to me in great detail during a discussion about why a business process had failed.

In essence, things might be fine at some designated point in time, but over a long period of time minor deviations from correct protocol become accepted and built upon because it all seems OK, until one day, many years down the track, you find yourself a long way from where you started and there is a bad outcome. What actually happened is very different from what should have happened, but by then it’s too late.

I’m not picking on the ACT police here, who I think do a fine job under very difficult circumstances. It’s just a widespread phenomenon in human group behaviour, and something that has a definite potential to occur.

I concur that I’d rather be tased than hit with a baton (or shot as I originally posted) as things stand today. In 10 years time though, depending on how things go, I may have a different opinion.

Interesting stuff. I just don’t think it will apply to Tasers though. All use of force incidents (not just those involving weapons) are pretty heavily scrutinised as it is. In the same way batons are rarely used (the AFP as a whole has more firearm incidents than baton incidents), I’d suggest the same will apply with Tasers.

I think there is a little too much paranoia …..

LSWCHP said :

Tooks said :

But if the cops start to think that tasering someone is just a normal part of the daily grind, rather than being the last resort before smoking some bad guy, we’re going to end up with a lot of Tasees, and more than an occasional dead guy.

Why would they start to think tasering someone is normal? .

Tasers – whether people like them or not – will eventually be rolled out to all ACT police. Correct use and accountability are the key.

The potential problem is a psychological phenomenon called “normalisation of deviance”. See http://www.trainingzone.co.uk/blogs/steve001/inspiredblog/normalisation-deviance for a pretty good description of what happens, or just use Google. I have a friend with a PhD in psychology who recently described this to me in great detail during a discussion about why a business process had failed.

In essence, things might be fine at some designated point in time, but over a long period of time minor deviations from correct protocol become accepted and built upon because it all seems OK, until one day, many years down the track, you find yourself a long way from where you started and there is a bad outcome. What actually happened is very different from what should have happened, but by then it’s too late.

I’m not picking on the ACT police here, who I think do a fine job under very difficult circumstances. It’s just a widespread phenomenon in human group behaviour, and something that has a definite potential to occur.

I concur that I’d rather be tased than hit with a baton (or shot as I originally posted) as things stand today. In 10 years time though, depending on how things go, I may have a different opinion.

Fair call, I understand where your coming from.

How long have Police carried gun’s for in Australia, out of that time, the entire time, how many shootings come down to Police thinking it is an everyday occurrence, so may as well shoot them?

Tooks said :

But if the cops start to think that tasering someone is just a normal part of the daily grind, rather than being the last resort before smoking some bad guy, we’re going to end up with a lot of Tasees, and more than an occasional dead guy.

Why would they start to think tasering someone is normal? .

Tasers – whether people like them or not – will eventually be rolled out to all ACT police. Correct use and accountability are the key.

The potential problem is a psychological phenomenon called “normalisation of deviance”. See http://www.trainingzone.co.uk/blogs/steve001/inspiredblog/normalisation-deviance for a pretty good description of what happens, or just use Google. I have a friend with a PhD in psychology who recently described this to me in great detail during a discussion about why a business process had failed.

In essence, things might be fine at some designated point in time, but over a long period of time minor deviations from correct protocol become accepted and built upon because it all seems OK, until one day, many years down the track, you find yourself a long way from where you started and there is a bad outcome. What actually happened is very different from what should have happened, but by then it’s too late.

I’m not picking on the ACT police here, who I think do a fine job under very difficult circumstances. It’s just a widespread phenomenon in human group behaviour, and something that has a definite potential to occur.

I concur that I’d rather be tased than hit with a baton (or shot as I originally posted) as things stand today. In 10 years time though, depending on how things go, I may have a different opinion.

If someone can pull up a case anywhere in the world where someone has died primarily as a result of being exposed to 5% OC spray (what ACT police use), then please post a link.

I’m detecting a certain ‘moving of the goalposts’ here, and don’t really have time to run through the entire spectrum of arguments to play that one out.
I’ll just leave this here, before your calls for every serving officer to get a taser become annoyingly loud.
Exactly which ones are trustworthy?

Moving of the goalposts? If people want to say OC spray is deadly, there’s no point quoting overseas sources where we don’t know exactly what product was used. I was just wondering if anyone could pull stats of where anyone has died from 5% OC spray, because that’s what every officer carries here. BTW, Birch – who was convicted and no longer has a job (and rightly so) for his misuse of the stuff – used foam, which is 10%. One of his colleagues also lost her job for misuse of OC spray, which I suggest is what would happen if officers misuse Tasers when they are inevitably rolled out to all frontline police.

And I’ve never called for every serving officer to get a Taser. Ever. What I said was, every officer will be getting one, whether anyone likes it or not. Personally, I don’t care either way. I just don’t agree with the argument that police will going nuts with a taser, just because they’ll have it on their belt.

Spideydog said :

Just out of curiosity, do you have statistics of how many have been killed, especially by capsicum spray? Or are you just going off the sensationalised media reports?

Skidbladnir said :

Spideydog:
Deaths where capsicum spray is a contributing factor: 17 in Southern California for the period 1993 – 2006

Tooks said :

If someone can pull up a case anywhere in the world where someone has died primarily as a result of being exposed to 5% OC spray (what ACT police use), then please post a link.

I’m detecting a certain ‘moving of the goalposts’ here, and don’t really have time to run through the entire spectrum of arguments to play that one out.
I’ll just leave this here, before your calls for every serving officer to get a taser become annoyingly loud.
Exactly which ones are trustworthy?

But if the cops start to think that tasering someone is just a normal part of the daily grind, rather than being the last resort before smoking some bad guy, we’re going to end up with a lot of Tasees, and more than an occasional dead guy.

Why would they start to think tasering someone is normal? The tactical team in the ACT have had them for years, yet they’ve only been used a handful of times. Most – if not all – Taser deaths relate to its misuse. Correctly used, they’re relatively harmless. I’d rather the Taser than a good hit with a baton.

Tasers – whether people like them or not – will eventually be rolled out to all ACT police. Correct use and accountability are the key.

Skidbladnir said :

“Contributing” as a co-aggravator of respiratory problems.
There are another ten where capsicum spray is a proximate cause.
Will you accept that capsicum spray is not a non-lethal law enforcement tool, just less-lethal?

Short of actually knowing the medical history of a subject, application of a chemical or electrical stressor is going to be a game of chance, with the worst outcome being the subjects death.

The problem with allowing less-lethal weapons and trying to normalise their use is that they can become a primary reaction to escalation (for some they will become normal), rather than a final non-lethal means of incapacitating an offender when all options have been exhausted.

Skid – you’re a smart guy, man. Hats off to you. I wish I could’ve put it that succinctly myself.

I’d rather be Tased than shot with a 9mm or .40 cal.

But if the cops start to think that tasering someone is just a normal part of the daily grind, rather than being the last resort before smoking some bad guy, we’re going to end up with a lot of Tasees, and more than an occasional dead guy.

It’s tricky stuff.

I-filed said :

He’s clearly from a reprobate family: his ingrate father responded to the payout by complaining that it isn’t enough, sounding petulant and very unpleasant.

If you had the slightest idea what his parents have been through. Yours would have to be the most idiotic, thoughtless posting ever put up on this forum.

If this guy still had use of his bowels he’d be wiping his ass with $100 bills!!!

buzz819 said :

Minimal new content, ending with “You cant search those two sites yourself or Google?”

You’re new this debating thing, then.
I provided a documentary source for my numbers, you claimed AIC and Color Lines supported your arguments without provided any foundation.

Assume we’re all busy people, and enjoy facts rather than assertions.
Otherwise we’ll eventually be able to accuse you of begging a question.

(This is commonly referred to as ‘proving your argument’).

PS: Don’t quote several hundred words to add just a few. More than likely you’ll be ignored.

Violet68 said :

The victim of the shooting was psychotic at the time. One would assume the Police were not. Whether this person was “contributing” to society in a manner that was “deemed” suitable – or whether or not he should be alive – is not up to any of you to decide – unless, of course, you believe your are some sort of God.

Apparently he thought he was God. “What would Jesus do?” – In this case it seems he would hit people with a stick.

Death by police is a very real form of suicide, and police (yes POLICE) need to be protected from dealing with this crap as much as mentally disturbed people need help and improved care in our society.

Is anyone a winner here? No. Although someone is at least now fairly wealthy

Skidbladnir said :

buzz819 said :

Out of 300 million people, 17 died as a result of a less than lethal force, where as 9,500 died as a result of being shot, kinda tells me a big story.

For those who died as pepper spray subjects, it was lethal.
Hence the term less lethal (ie: still potentially lethal, but with smaller risk of death), not less than lethal.
Which is why there is an LD50 for capsaicin on its MSDS.
LD50 (47.2 mg/kg) is achieved at roughly a third of a standard canister ingested by an average male. Some people are edge cases, and will as a result die at significantly lower doses.

buzz819 said :

Police use these options to protect themselves and their partners in the foremost. You don’t like that? Who cares…don’t break the law if you don’t like Police.

Spectacular logic fail.
Your average citizen, while ordinarily rational, is unlikely to have an interaction with police, but even in instances where rational subjects are in conflict with police such as protest, pain compliance and the threat of pain compliance are used as counter-protest intimidation techniques.
(For refererence, the escalation of force taught in Australia is: Presence of officer, Verbal command, Contact, Weaponless defensive, Defensive weapon, Potentially-lethal force)

However, they still were drawn up to be effective with rational subjects in mind .
John Crowley did not provide a rational subject for police in this scenario, which is where ACT Mental Health dropped the ball.

Furthermore, for instances where police have just gone to town on rationally emotional subjects with ‘less-lethal weapons’, see the death of Mr Robert Dzieka?ski.

buzz819 said :

All the info I just got was from the Australian Institute of Criminology and a news site called Color Lines.

You’ll be providing direct links to sources any minute now, then?

You cant search those two sites yourself or Google?

I do wonder….

Was this decision based on 2001 standards of Mental Health, or ~present day?

A lot has changed in Mental Health since then. It may have been much more difficult for Mental Health carers to do their job?

Apart from that, I think if there is anyone to blame it is Mr Crowley himself. Just like a pissed driver in an accident, it is always their fault, simply because it wouldn’t have happened if they weren’t on the road.

Mental issues or not, we are all responsible for our actions, that includes getting help BEFORE you become a complete nutter. His family could consider that too.

buzz819 said :

Out of 300 million people, 17 died as a result of a less than lethal force, where as 9,500 died as a result of being shot, kinda tells me a big story.

For those who died as pepper spray subjects, it was lethal.
Hence the term less lethal (ie: still potentially lethal, but with smaller risk of death), not less than lethal.
Which is why there is an LD50 for capsaicin on its MSDS.
LD50 (47.2 mg/kg) is achieved at roughly a third of a standard canister ingested by an average male. Some people are edge cases, and will as a result die at significantly lower doses.

buzz819 said :

Police use these options to protect themselves and their partners in the foremost. You don’t like that? Who cares…don’t break the law if you don’t like Police.

Spectacular logic fail.
Your average citizen, while ordinarily rational, is unlikely to have an interaction with police, but even in instances where rational subjects are in conflict with police such as protest, pain compliance and the threat of pain compliance are used as counter-protest intimidation techniques.
(For refererence, the escalation of force taught in Australia is: Presence of officer, Verbal command, Contact, Weaponless defensive, Defensive weapon, Potentially-lethal force)

However, they still were drawn up to be effective with rational subjects in mind .
John Crowley did not provide a rational subject for police in this scenario, which is where ACT Mental Health dropped the ball.

Furthermore, for instances where police have just gone to town on rationally emotional subjects with ‘less-lethal weapons’, see the death of Mr Robert Dzieka?ski.

buzz819 said :

All the info I just got was from the Australian Institute of Criminology and a news site called Color Lines.

You’ll be providing direct links to sources any minute now, then?

Never, ever, shoot to wound!

You shoot to kill and you make damn sure of it!

If you try to shoot someone to wound them/slow them down, you risk them killing you. It’s a fact and is hammered into anyone trained in the pistol. The average confrontation range is generally less than 10 metres, you have just a couple of seconds to get a couple of rounds off if the suspect decides to rush you. If you use those valuable two seconds to try and hit him in the legs or take out his weapon arm, you will end up in a bag at the morgue.

Centre of seen mass, twice as a minimum and if you think he’s still a threat then put a few more into the head. The moment he’s down, stop shooting.

You’ll be asked all sorts of questions by the investigating team like why didn’t you run, why didn’t you try to deflect his assault etc etc but if you are a seasoned operator you’ll have the answers ready to go. I didn’t try and get in the car as I knew the door was closed, by the time I would have turned around to open it he’d have been on me from behind, I coulsn’t deflect his assault, he had a sword so even if I stepped to one side he’d still be able to hit me etc etc.

It was just a bamboo stick! Was it? I thought it was one of those samurai swords in a bamboo sheath, I thought he was going to cut my head off!!

He was having a psychotic episode and was yelling out that he was Jesus! And you expected me to reason with this bloke???

The biggest mistake these poor coppers made was going in half arsed. It’s everything or it’s stay in the car, blokes. Never go into a fight not being prepared to drop the hammer. Always have an ‘out’ and never, ever, leave the grub alive!

Police are also allowed to use these ‘non-lethal’ defences, all of which can cause death:

– Punches
– Elbow strikes
– Kicks
– Knee strikes

If de-escalation cannot be achieved, OC spray is about the safest use of force option in terms of avoiding injury to the offender. If someone can pull up a case anywhere in the world where someone has died primarily as a result of being exposed to 5% OC spray (what ACT police use), then please post a link.

Regarding Tasers – ask Mr Crowley if he would’ve preferred 50,000 volts to a 9mm round. On the plus side, he wouldn’t be confined to a wheel chair right now.

Skidbladnir said :

Spideydog:
Deaths where capsicum spray is a contributing factor: 17 in Southern California for the period 1993 – 2006.
No similar Australian data or study available.
“Contributing” as a co-aggravator of respiratory problems.
There are another ten where capsicum spray is a proximate cause.
Will you accept that capsicum spray is not a non-lethal law enforcement tool, just less-lethal?

Short of actually knowing the medical history of a subject, application of a chemical or electrical stressor is going to be a game of chance, with the worst outcome being the subjects death.

The problem with allowing less-lethal weapons and trying to normalise their use is that they can become a primary reaction to escalation (for some they will become normal), rather than a final non-lethal means of incapacitating an offender when all options have been exhausted.

Ontopic:
This is still roughly par for ACT Mental Health, but at least now they have roughly 8 million reasons _per client_ to lift their care standards out of Fustercluck territory.
Pity that the posterchild for their improvement program has to be this dropkick, though.

Good work, 17 people in 13 years. But did you know in America between 1980 and 2005, 9,500 people were shot and killed by Police in america? The closest I could come to those figures here was between the years of 1990 and 2004, people shot and killed by Police in Australia, 76.

The current population in America, 300 million, Australian 23 million.

Out of 300 million people, 17 died as a result of a less than lethal force, where as 9,500 died as a result of being shot, kinda tells me a big story.

How many people in Australia have been presumed to have died as a result of exposure to OC Spray? in the last 15 years, 2, that is not a definite, that is just what the media is saying, I have not seen the results of the autopsy’s so couldn’t tell you if that is fact. So again a lot less then the amount of people shot.

If you want to go sprouting figures, get all the figures. Australia is not America, yes, both countries have Police, both countries have their own unique difficulties.

Police use these options to protect themselves and their partners in the foremost. You don’t like that? Who cares, I don’t catch buses because I don’t like bus drivers, don’t break the law if you don’t like Police.

All the info I just got was from the Australian Institute of Criminology and a news site called Color Lines.

Skidbladnir said :

The problem with allowing less-lethal weapons and trying to normalise their use is that they can become a primary reaction to escalation (for some they will become normal), rather than a final non-lethal means of incapacitating an offender when all options have been exhausted.

This type of behaviour sadly cannot be COMPLETLY guaranteed, however I think you will find in Australia, it is very remote as there is comprehensive training, and importantly transperancy and full accountability for all use of force. Police all around Australia have capsicum spray and this has not been the issue, additionally, some jurisdictions have taser’s and again this problem has not arisen.

From the stats you have provided, I think you would agree that death from particularly capsicum spray, is VERY remote and again with proper training, officers will know warning signs that may arise in it’s use and take early action.

If there was innapropriate use of such items (spray, taser) this day and age, the public WILL find out about. There is no doubt in my mind about that, and the public should know about that. I am sure that every officer knows that the misuse of such “tools” would mean they would be revoked. I do not buy into this apparent widespread misuse senario’s being raised.

Bussie said :

Not this member of the public. The so-called non-lethal weapons of tasers and capsicum spray have killed plenty of people. And the police tend to end up using them on non-violent people simply cos they don’t do what the cops say.

This isn’t America dude, this is Australia where police actually have to answer to corruption commissions. Police use “reasonable force” to detain someone, usually the next ‘level of force’ above what the attacker is using.

“Non-lethal” is a relative term, i.e. its much less likely to kill someone (wiki it). Nothing is 100% non-lethal, heck, you can push someone over and they can die as a result. Perhaps we should issue police with feathers to tickle suspects into surrendering?

If you dont want to get tazed, sprayed, hit with a baton, shot etc – follow police instruction and don’t resist arrest if you get caught doing something wrong. Every time they discharge a weapon, they have to justify its use to their boss, and if a complaint is made, then to the investigating body.

Spideydog:
Deaths where capsicum spray is a contributing factor: 17 in Southern California for the period 1993 – 2006.
No similar Australian data or study available.
“Contributing” as a co-aggravator of respiratory problems.
There are another ten where capsicum spray is a proximate cause.
Will you accept that capsicum spray is not a non-lethal law enforcement tool, just less-lethal?

Short of actually knowing the medical history of a subject, application of a chemical or electrical stressor is going to be a game of chance, with the worst outcome being the subjects death.

The problem with allowing less-lethal weapons and trying to normalise their use is that they can become a primary reaction to escalation (for some they will become normal), rather than a final non-lethal means of incapacitating an offender when all options have been exhausted.

Ontopic:
This is still roughly par for ACT Mental Health, but at least now they have roughly 8 million reasons _per client_ to lift their care standards out of Fustercluck territory.
Pity that the posterchild for their improvement program has to be this dropkick, though.

Bussie said :

Spideydog said :

Hopefully the public can be more receptive to newer non-lethal tools, for police to be able to use if appropriate to protect everybody.

Not this member of the public. The so-called non-lethal weapons of tasers and capsicum spray have killed plenty of people. And the police tend to end up using them on non-violent people simply cos they don’t do what the cops say.

And I rest my case.

Just out of curiosity, do you have statistics of how many have been killed, especially by capsicum spray? Or are you just going off the sensationalised media reports? How many lives can be preserved/saved by the introduction of more options for police members so they don’t have to resort to a firearm? Lets not worry about potentially saving lives, lets worry about the police that are allegedly gonna start misusing it. “Police tend to end up using them on non-violent people simply cos they don’t do what the cops say” Now that was GOLD ….. I suppose you have some stats and examples to back that bad boy up. (I will grant you the watch house incident) Show us this WIDESPREAD misuse?

Violet68, I’m not even gonna bother with your last entries…… you couldn’t have twisted the versions of events any more !!!!! Selective reading and “wordsmithing” I think to suit your opinion.

Spideydog said :

Hopefully the public can be more receptive to newer non-lethal tools, for police to be able to use if appropriate to protect everybody.

Not this member of the public. The so-called non-lethal weapons of tasers and capsicum spray have killed plenty of people. And the police tend to end up using them on non-violent people simply cos they don’t do what the cops say.

Everyone has their views, but the decision essentially means that Police have to be very carefull in the way they approach mental ill people.

The officers had seconds to act and acted in good faith. Unfortuantly they had to resort to using their firearms.

This could’ve been prevented if:

Mental Health had done their job properly? Police would never had been called.

The male made earlier life choices to prevent his mental illness? Police would never be called.

The parents were able to adequately look after him? Police would never be called.

I am glad that Police will have to very careful about the way they approach mentally ill people.

This could have been prevented if Police did not confront Mr Crowley in the way they did.

Yes, MH had a big part to play in this incident (they usually do), however this was Mr Crowley’s first psychosis. At the time of their initial assessment, he was neither a risk to himself, others or his own reputation. They knew Mr Crowley was unlikely to go voluntarily so Police would have been called either way.

As someone else said on this forum, correlation does not equal causation. If you find out what causes mental illness, please let me know. Perhaps we can immunise for it in the future.

As for the parents, they had never seen Mr Crowley behave in this manner before. They had him living in a caravan and, it seems, they were providing some meals and supervision for him. They were caring for another son with mental illness and I’d say, as a result of previous negative experiences, were trying to set up a voluntary admission to Calvary rather than PSU and avoid bringing in Police all together. Parents cannot prevent psychosis.

If you do find a prevention or a cure, you’d certainly be my vote for a Nobel Prize.

The attending officer/s don’t know there is no apparent IMMEDIATE dangers ………. they pull up in their car and according to you, would have sit in the street in their vehicle and do some planning and risk assessments !!!!! (I would suggest they would be doing that anyways on the hop)

Quite often Police will attend an incident and speak with MH persons and the situation is de-escalated or resolved without incident. On this occassion, sadly it didn’t and he attacked the attending members. They don’t a crystal ball to see if this person will or won’t act positively to them.

You need to get your head out of text books and come into the real world where at times, there may not be time to do planning and risk assessments to the standard you are implying or people attending these incidents don’t have the hindsight you now have.

Just because there was apparently no one in the street at that immediate time, doesn’t mean there won’t be.

They have a duty to protect the public and this includes those that MAY enter the scene after they arrive. They can’t just do nothing.

Anyway, I think the time has come for us to unlock horns again 🙂 My point is that the street is not a sterile mental health assessment room with all the time in the world to do things. Hopefully the public can be more receptive to newer non-lethal tools, for police to be able to use if appropriate to protect everybody.

Firstly one of the criticisms made in the Judgment was that the officers didn’t communicate “on the hop” which they admitted. Secondly, neither officer remembers seeing the two bystanders in the street so I’m not sure how worried they were about the public? Thirdly, same officers were very much aware that Mr Crowley was probably unwell at the time. According to the Judgment there are operational procedures they were expected to follow.

Witnesses that were there and not in their “armchairs” stated that the yelling and screaming started as soon as the Police car doors opened. Same witness…..”doors popped open, the capsicum spray and Jonathon attacking the first officer”…..”there were no friendly or soothing voices”……”he could not hear anything said by Jonathon”. Another witness…..”both jumped out sort of leaned over their doors and screamed at (Jonathon)”. As the yelling continued, Jonathon bought his stick into the “ready stance”. There is no evidence to support the idea that an attempt to negotiate was made.

As for textbooks, I haven’t read one in awhile. I’ll be doing ethics next so this will be relevant. I found the Judgment interesting reading too, especially the stuff on communications. Psychosis is no fun for anyone involved (including the person who is experiencing it). It can be terrifying, I know. I do hope this decision brings about change so that family’s and loved ones with mental illness will have less and less to do with the justice system.

Ideally, it would be great to have access to an effective, progressive mental “health” system that provides quality continuity of care….but that’s another story.

Tooks said :

matt31221 said :

Haven’t the police heard of a shotgun bean-bag round? That would of ended the mess without almost killing the victim. In taekwondo as a child our instructor used to full on cane us with a bamboo shinai, it hurts but it isn’t a lethal weapon. They could of swamped him and restrained him easy.

Yes, I’m all for every cop being allowed to carry shotguns (and tasers), but unfortunately they don’t. BTW, what taekwondo school did you go to? I’ll make sure I don’t send my kids there.

Remember the old Master J.N. Kims school? I think Master Kim has retired to the South Coast now. He gave you a chance to avoid the stick btw, he would swing it at your legs (only the upper belts from memory) and if you didn’t jump – SMACK! He had other harsh methods, we once clapped both his hands hard over my ears to teach me to keep my hands up. He was a good teacher and if you were willing to learn he would teach you good. You don’t want to send your kids to pussy TKD schools btw, it will teach them how to get their arse kicked (there are heaps of TKD and Karate schools out there that are basically child minding centres that take your cash). Master Kim taught you real self defence. I do muay thai now though – the best self defence.

Violet,

What would you do in that situation?

Everyone has their views, but the decision essentially means that Police have to be very carefull in the way they approach mental ill people.

Having said that, whenever a mentally ill person becomes violent or gets to the point that a mental health worker can no longer negotiate with the person, Police are called.

Most of the time, Police can negotiate their way through these incidents and safelty take that person to a mental health facility. Police deal with the mentally ill on a daily basis.

Occasionally, a mentally ill person’s behaviour becomes so erratic that they become a handful even for Police. A situation can change in seconds. (for instance when you have a car crash, it happens within seconds. same deal here).

The officers had seconds to act and acted in good faith. Unfortuantly they had to resort to using their firearms.

This could’ve been prevented if:

Mental Health had done their job properly? Police would never had been called.

The male made earlier life choices to prevent his mental illness? Police would never be called.

The parents were able to adequately look after him? Police would never be called.

Violet68 said :

This was not an immediate life and death situation. They had time to do a a risk assessment and plan before engaging – two things I would hope to see as standard procedure for Police.

And once again you fail to understand or accept that they get minimal details over the radio and get sent to an incident that may come accross as being urgent. The attending officer/s don’t know there is no apparent IMMEDIATE dangers ………. they pull up in their car and according to you, would have sit in the street in their vehicle and do some planning and risk assessments !!!!! (I would suggest they would be doing that anyways on the hop)

Quite often Police will attend an incident and speak with MH persons and the situation is de-escalated or resolved without incident. On this occassion, sadly it didn’t and he attacked the attending members. They don’t a crystal ball to see if this person will or won’t act positively to them.

You need to get your head out of text books and come into the real world where at times, there may not be time to do planning and risk assessments to the standard you are implying or people attending these incidents don’t have the hindsight you now have.

While we are at it, me selectively reading your posts ….. your whole tone throughout your posts in this and other threads, is that Police enter haphazardly, blazing away. No selective reading about it all.

You telling us that your not suggesting that they should stay in the patrol car instead of trying to negotiate with this person, but you are saying that. Your saying they should do an initial assessment when arriving, so if they see that he’s ranting about being Jesus etc, etc, what do you suggest they do next…….. sit in the patrol car and wait, drive off and wait???? Allow him to continue wandering the street with his weapon??? Just because there was apparently no one in the street at that immediate time, doesn’t mean there won’t be. They have a duty to protect the public and this includes those that MAY enter the scene after they arrive. They can’t just do nothing.

From what I can see, they reasonably did what they could with the available resources at the time in trying to protect the public and themselves.

Anyway, I think the time has come for us to unlock horns again 🙂 My point is that the street is not a sterile mental health assessment room with all the time in the world to do things. Hopefully the public can be more receptive to newer non-lethal tools, for police to be able to use if appropriate to protect everybody.

Violet68 said :

Chief Ten Beers said :

$8 Million? Seems easier than the lottery or working for a couple decades. Might get pissed tonight and wave a few bamboo swords in public.

Hopefully I can just get shot somewhere else though, in the leg would be fine. I’d be happy to settle for $1 Million.

Haven’t you been paying attention? Apparently, it’s virtually impossible for Police to shoot you in the leg. Apparently, they are trained to aim for the largest part of the body mass. Mr Crowley must have had a huge neck.

Sorry sharp shooting Violet, perhaps you should take up a job as a sniper if you always hit your mark every time you pull the trigger. It’s not Hollywood.

It takes a lot for a cop to pull a gun.. period. If they pull it and shoot it’s not an average day in the office. Stop insinuating negligence because they hit him in the neck, they hit a moving target, it stopped him and neutralised the threat, not sure you could manage anything close from your armchair.

This family has done nothing but milk the media since the incident, and WIN news has been happy to oblige.

I haven’t seen mention on here of the BS claim of “I had the stick to scare away magpies” which was the running excuse for a while to try and win favour with the general public, what an absolute load of BS.

When this incident happened the suburb was essentially in lock down, I remember the panic it caused. It wasn’t “some guy is swinging a stick, quick shoot him!” he was running around saying he was Jesus threatening residents and attacked police, I wish people would stop trivialising how serious it was.

I feel sorry for Glenn Pitkethly that had to be dragged through all this crap for defending his partner, WIN news never seems to tell that side (even the above article glosses over the fact his partner was attacked).

Stop selectively reading “bits” of my posts. I didn’t attempt to allude that Police got out of the car with guns blazing. I said they got out yelling, swearing and pointing capsicum spray. Actions which resulted in Mr Crowley, who was experiencing psychosis, (a fact never challenged by any of the parties) to go into battle with them.

One would hope that Police would do at least a quick assessment of the situation before confronting anyone…..for example, did they check to see if any bystanders were in the way, did they assess Mr Crowley’s size and his apparent mental state (they would have been able to see the writing on his chest and knew he had been proclaiming he was Jesus). Let’s be real. I am not saying the Police should have sat in the car with the doors locked. This was not an immediate life and death situation. They had time to do a a risk assessment and plan before engaging – two things I would hope to see as standard procedure for Police.

Supporting an adhoc approach to Policing and MH is dangerous and stupid.

matt31221 said :

Haven’t the police heard of a shotgun bean-bag round? That would of ended the mess without almost killing the victim. In taekwondo as a child our instructor used to full on cane us with a bamboo shinai, it hurts but it isn’t a lethal weapon. They could of swamped him and restrained him easy.

Yes, I’m all for every cop being allowed to carry shotguns (and tasers), but unfortunately they don’t. BTW, what taekwondo school did you go to? I’ll make sure I don’t send my kids there.

What everyone seems to be missing here is that in this case, as in many, the police had to deal with the result of the incompetance of ACT Mental Health. If the staff from mental health had done their jobs properly, this man would have been taken to PSU and offered some assistance. Instead they chose to leave him where he was despite his clearly disturbed state of mind.

All too often it is the police who are left to deal with mentally ill people who have not been given adequate care by the mental health authorities. As we have seen in so many cases this can result in tradegy for all concerned.

If anything come out of this case, I hope it is a review of our appalling mental health system.

Violet68 said :

And this was a decision that a magistrate decided over for 2-3 years, where these officers had to make that decision in seconds……. A position the Police should never have been put in, in the first place. Pretty easy for people like violet to sit back and “armchair” criticise.

It took years of deliberation over the evidence and interpretation of the law to make a decision about who was negligent.

The Police involved did not have to make their decision in seconds. That is garbage. Perhaps if they had taken the time to think things over (without jumping the gun), there would have been a different outcome. The Judgment shows that noone was in immediate danger at the time of their arrival into the street. Their actions clearly contributed to and escalated the violence that came next.

As for the comments about my “pathological hatred” for Police and “people like me” etc, I would suggest you take a look at your own inability to think “creatively” or objectively about Police at all. Devestating incidents like these need to be learned from to avoid reoccurence and to keep Police accountable for their actions.

Police receive minimal details when attending incidents. They attend incidents not knowing if someone is presently being attacked by this person or not and therefore in the interest in public safety must assume someone maybe being assaulted. Your way of thinking would have them turn up, then sit in the patrol car, lock the doors and hope for the best till more resources arrive. They didn’t get out guns blazing as you try to allude to everyone. Attempts were made to negotiate and use minimal force. The decisions were made in seconds as I stated earlier until sadly they had to preserve their own safety.

Those officers don’t have the information you now have, as a benefit of hindsight that you are quite happy to form opinions on being a armchair critic. I would also point out that this may be subject of appeal and is not finalised yet.

I am very happy for everyone to learn from such incidents and are very comfortable that all police are accountable for their actions, no dramas at all with that.

The only issue I have is people making unfair criticism especially on something they have never had to face personally, in real time and basing opinions on hindsight information.

Haven’t the police heard of a shotgun bean-bag round? That would of ended the mess without almost killing the victim. In taekwondo as a child our instructor used to full on cane us with a bamboo shinai, it hurts but it isn’t a lethal weapon. They could of swamped him and restrained him easy.

For comparison, how much would it have cost to keep this guy in jail for life (or at least a few years in ACT) if he had murdered someone, it wouldnt be far off that figure.

And this was a decision that a magistrate decided over for 2-3 years, where these officers had to make that decision in seconds……. A position the Police should never have been put in, in the first place. Pretty easy for people like violet to sit back and “armchair” criticise.

It took years of deliberation over the evidence and interpretation of the law to make a decision about who was negligent.

The Police involved did not have to make their decision in seconds. That is garbage. Perhaps if they had taken the time to think things over (without jumping the gun), there would have been a different outcome. The Judgment shows that noone was in immediate danger at the time of their arrival into the street. Their actions clearly contributed to and escalated the violence that came next.

As for the comments about my “pathological hatred” for Police and “people like me” etc, I would suggest you take a look at your own inability to think “creatively” or objectively about Police at all. Devestating incidents like these need to be learned from to avoid reoccurence and to keep Police accountable for their actions.

This is an absolute bloody disgrace.

My sympathy is only with the cops involved. If I was savagely attacked by a madman who had beaten my mate to the ground and knocked my baton from my hand, I would’ve done exactly the same thing.

I hope the appeals reverse this nonsense.

Genie said :

$8 million is overkill. The guy was injured committing a crime and has now made a profit from it. Which I thought wasn’t possible.

Mental illness or not. He shouldn’t be awarded a cent.

Come on, surely the fact that he was injured means he should be given some sort of financial benefit?! Maybe… some sort of pension? For being disabled?

Yeah… I think the tax payers should support him through some sort of regular payment to help his parents take care of him.

Oh wait… we already were.
My bad.

I fail to see why he was given $8 million in compensation. The police were found negligent because they initiated confrontation when they should have waited, not because they shot him. If they had waited and negotiated and still ended up having to shoot him in the neck, paralysing him, would he still have received compensation for it?

All I can say is that it’s all very well for all the armchair critics to sit back and pick apart their decisions after it has happened, but none of us were there. No one knows exactly what happened down to the last detail, or how Mr Crowley’s actions would have been perceived if we were there, instead of just reading about it afterwards.

Genie said :

$8 million is overkill. The guy was injured committing a crime and has now made a profit from it. Which I thought wasn’t possible.

Mental illness or not. He shouldn’t be awarded a cent.

+1. Well said.

$8 million is overkill. The guy was injured committing a crime and has now made a profit from it. Which I thought wasn’t possible.

Mental illness or not. He shouldn’t be awarded a cent.

creative_canberran said :

On this occasion, police should have exercised more restraint, but to some extent its an impossible choice between letting some nutter with weapons run around a suburban street or trying to control the situation. No doubt anyone in that situation would fear inflaming things, but so too would they fear a child walking home from school or any other passer by being attacked.

And this was a decision that a magistrate decided over for 2-3 years, where these officers had to make that decision in seconds……. A position the Police should never have been put in, in the first place. Pretty easy for people like violet to sit back and “armchair” criticise.

In this case, as in others, the Police are normally called when things have gotten or are close to getting out of hand. They face the difficult balancing act or trying not to inflame the offender’s own situation while having to control the situation for the preservation of public safety. Others have continuously vilified police as problem in the situation. So too, they have repeatedly vilified those who have dared to call police, even referring to members of the public as “nosy fkrs” for daring to call police.

It is time for these people to understand that there are failures at all levels regarding mental health in this country, that is why the federal government is to devote so much to it in coming years.

On this occasion, police should have exercised more restraint, but to some extent its an impossible choice between letting some nutter with weapons run around a suburban street or trying to control the situation. No doubt anyone in that situation would fear inflaming things, but so too would they fear a child walking home from school or any other passer by being attacked.

And on this occasion, police themselves were let down by the failings of the Mental health authorities who had the most crucial role in all of this… prevention.

Creative Canberran…..thanks for clearing that up. The negligence was indeed in the way Police initiated the confrontation. No arguments from me on that one.

Thank you for your continual diagnoses and increasingly personal, paranoid statements about me. Your first post concerning the “worth” of Mr Crowley summed up your understanding and values about humanity and diversity for me.

Violet68 said :

I’ll base my opinion on the judgment which says something to the effect that Mr Crowley whacked one man across the back with a stick. I’m not saying this is OK by any means but it is very different to saying he assaulted and frightened many people. The man who copped the whack across the back didn’t grab his son and seek shelter nor did he call Police or an ambulance……instead he told Mr Crowley he couldn’ t do that sort of thing to people and Mr Crowley went on his way…….very different scenario.

Regular readers of RiotAct will be well aware of the blatant vendetta violet holds against law enforcement. A pathological distrust and hatred for police that means no matter the facts, no matter the circumstances, the police are to blame.

Now firstly, I would like to point out that Jonathan Crowley, though described as a peaceful and non-violent person, had long had problems with police. To the point that his own father had told someone the day before the shooting that Jonathan had “a significant dislike of the AFP” (at 93, Crowley v Commonwealth). This hatred of police went back to earlier incidents before his mental illness developed. He blamed police for his loss of employment as a security guard and a later investigation which held him partly liable for a road accident (at 87, Crowley v Commonwealth).

So while we would like to put this all down to mental illness, it’s clear that he had a long, well developed dislike of police. The court could not determine to what extent this affected his behaviour the day of the shooting. It was considered possible that this could make his response to police turning up far more acute that would otherwise have been expected.

Now for the actually incident:

Both officers arrived and exited their vehicle. Both officers held their OC Spray in hand and both officers deployed the OC on Jonathan Crowley when he failed to drop the weapon and approached the vehicle.

The spray was ineffective. SC Wills was attacked and had assumed the foetal position in bushed nearby, he reported been “fuzzy headed” (at 420, Crowley v Commonwealth).

SC Pitkethly then drew his baton and used it to deflect blows inflicted by Jonathan’s weapon aimed at the officer’s head. Jonathan Crowley inflicted repeated blows to the officer and the baton absorbed most of the force before ending up on the ground. (at 408, Crowley v Commonwealth).

At point blank range, all the police officer had left to defend himself was a firearm.

The court found that: “SC Pitkethly did not breach the duty of care owed to Jonathan in his use of the various weapons available to him.” (at 858, Crowley v Commonwealth).

The police WERE NOT found negligent because they used weapons against him. Though violet would have us all believe this was just a guy who tapped another guy on the back and was negligently harmed by police. The simple fact is that is not true. Jonathan Crowley attacked multiple times, with great severity and using his greater size, presenting a real threat that police responded to. The actual negligence was in starting the confrontation in the manner they did.

The Police were found to have breached their duty of care for two reasons:
a) failing to do a proper assessment or carry out proper planning on how to deal with Jonathan Crowley
b) choosing to exit the police vehicle and confront him before back up arrived and without proper planning. They should have stayed back and contained, not confronted. (at 1088)

The ACT Government was liable for the multiple failings by ACT Mental Health in failing to deal with Jonathan’s condition in the days prior to the shooting and in failing to pass requested information to Police or follow up why information was requested. (at 1089)

I thought of a better way to deal with these incidents-

Things like this should just get broadcast on radio and TV and everyone locks themselves inside till the guy running around with the gun/sword/kendo stick is puffed out and goes home. After that they book him into a treament program. If everyone is lucky and he isn’t on speed or ice they might tire after 5 or six hours.

It could be fun for familys. They all barricade themselves inside and pretend it’s a zombie attack.

You all obviously missed this bit: “Justice Hilary Penfold found the officer negligent along with the other two parties”

Yes, because she’s known for her excellent decisions. Oh, wait…

Next time someone suffers a psychotic episode in public with a weapon (and it will happen again), hopefully police will stay in their cars and wait for the callout for tactical team and negotiators. At least if the nutter goes off and hacks someone up (or otherwise seriously injures or kills someone), Penfold will be pleased police learned their lesson from the Crowley incident and didn’t confront him, right?

I don’t think there would have been a “high stress situation” if the officers involved didn’t drive right up in Mr Crowley’s face and confront him. They had back up on the way who had been told to “negotiate” (well all of them had been told to do that) and noone was in immediate danger. I can see there are many people passionate about sticking up for Police but it doesn’t mean that things couldn’t have been done differently. The Judge commented on the shooters “lack of imagination” and how he blames Mr Crowley for the whole incident. If there is an inability and refusal to reflect and learn from a mistake then how will things ever change?

When Deadwood comes to law enforcement in Canberra, RiotACT will prove a valuable recruitment ground.

Jazz said :

Just because they’re trained to aim for the largest body mass doesn’t mean they’ll always hit it on a moving target.

Especially in a high stress situation where the shot is taken for IMMEDIATE defence of oneself or another. In these situations there maybe minimal, to no time for a carefully aimed shot.

I’ll base my opinion on the judgment which says something to the effect that Mr Crowley whacked one man across the back with a stick. I’m not saying this is OK by any means but it is very different to saying he assaulted and frightened many people. The man who copped the whack across the back didn’t grab his son and seek shelter nor did he call Police or an ambulance……instead he told Mr Crowley he couldn’ t do that sort of thing to people and Mr Crowley went on his way…….very different scenario.

Very Busy said :

What a sad, sad place Canberra has become. No wonder mental health services are so far from adequate when you read the vast majority of responses and attitudes in this thread. The overwhelming number of responses are just so ignorant, obnoxious, selfish and show a total lack of understanding.

You all obviously missed this bit: “Justice Hilary Penfold found the officer negligent along with the other two parties”

I send my best wishes to the Crowley family and hope you are now able to move forward and that the quality of your life can now improve.

Some would say you are the one that is ignorant, obnoxious, selfish and show a total lack of understanding. Its called difference of opinion. Missed Justice Penfold’s judgement, no I didn’t …… doesn’t mean I and many others have to agree with it. I will respect the decision after all appeals (if that occurs), but I certainly don’t agree with it in certain aspects anyways 🙂

Violet68 said :

According to the judgment, the two people who were confronted by Mr Crowley remained in the street and did not “flee” so couldn’t have been too frightened. The lady who was in her home, chose not to call Police because she “felt sorry”

Hmmm, she was in her home, I’m not surprised she was wasn’t frightened, because she wasn’t in any immediate danger.

You can twist the incident as much as you want to make your point of view sound better, but at the end of the day, there was a mentally deranged person in the street, with a weapon who was frightening and assaulting many people who did feel the need to call police.

Its funny how the Police have been trying to introduce “less than lethal” options so that firearms won’t have to be used, but when they do, certain sections of the public are highly against these new options, ie Taser. So sadly when a firearm is used as a last and only resort, they get sued, go figure.

…after all, it was obviously his own fault that he had serious mental health problems. I mean, look at the guy – he’d already been injured in a car crash and was living in a caravan at his parents home and had the disability pension as a source of income. I see the dead hand of Christopher Skase in here…

Mad guy shot by police suffers serious and ongoing injury, his family carry burden of his care.

The sad thing about this is that no-one wins. This is just an ugly incident that can’t be easily resolved by blaming or flaming.

1. Cops under pressure in a high risk situation take what they deem to be appropriate steps to protect the public and themselves.

2. Man in full-blown psychotic episode with no control over his mind gets his body ruined and his aging parents have to care for his high-level physical needs.

3. Cost of medical care for the rest of his life exceeds parents’ capacity to pay, and his care needs will go on after they die.

4. Family has to sue to fund his medical care or see him degenerate and die early after a long period of suffering.

5. Life sucks. Or as the sex-mad whisky-loving M Scott Peck said, ‘Life is difficult’.

If only he’d been shot in the neck for a PTSD-fuelled public rage after serving in Afghanistan. Defence would have paid for all the same level of care, spreading the cost of taxpayers across the whole of Austral;ia instead iof just the ACT, and so many of you could blame the government for getting us involved in the first place, or alternatively elevate him to the status of national sacrifice worth paying to fight the great war on terrorism…

yes, life does indeed suck.

According to the judgment, the two people who were confronted by Mr Crowley remained in the street and did not “flee” so couldn’t have been too frightened. The lady who was in her home, chose not to call Police because she “felt sorry” for him and thought perhaps he had a mental problem (musn’t have been too hard to work that out). None of these people drove up to Mr Crowley, and immediately jumped out of their car yelling and swearing pointing capsicum spray at him so I guess that might have been where it all went to shit…….(so much for the negotiation plan).

One of the fundamental problems with dealing with disturbed people (drunk, drug induced or mentally) is a lack of kinetic options. The police here, with current equipment, had three initial options; firstly do nothing and hope he calms down, secondly to enagage with pistol which would keep police out of range of the weapon being carried or thirdly to enter the range of the weapon being carried by the perp and try to subdue with oleoresin capsicum spray.

The first option only works where you have space and there are no civilians around. On a suburban street it is dependant on the speed at which the perp wants to come at you and your understanding that bystanders could be engaged very quickly. Not a real option if your job is to protect the public.

The second option is to enage with a pistol outside the perps weapon range. Not recommended due to poor marksmanship training by AFP and lack of threat to officers. From memory AFP shoot 20 rounds a year which makes them safe handlers of weapons but not marksmen. Danger area for a 9mm round would be 1800 metres but effective range of a normal AFP shooter would be 10-20 metres.

The third option ensures that if the oleoresin capsicum spray doesn’t work then the police must resort to their pistols almost immediately. There is plenty of evidence that focussed and intent people can work through chemical agents such as tear gas and oleoresin capsicum sprays.

The best option would be equip police with a 12 gauge shotgun like the Remington 870 and allow them to fire kinetic ammunition like bean bag or plastic point target rounds. The longer barrel of the 870 ensures greater accuracy probably out to 150 metres, A volley fired at a perp would ensure that he is knocked down or otherwise impeded in his actions. A lot cheaper than a $8 million payout.

Now that Mr Crowley is worth a bunch of cash the Police officers can countersue for him kicking the crap out of them and the psychological damage caused by him doing so.

I do find it interesting how the reports always seem to gloss over the bit where Crowley took to Constable Willis with the Kendo stick and get straight to the shooting part.

What a sad, sad place Canberra has become. No wonder mental health services are so far from adequate when you read the vast majority of responses and attitudes in this thread. The overwhelming number of responses are just so ignorant, obnoxious, selfish and show a total lack of understanding.

You all obviously missed this bit: “Justice Hilary Penfold found the officer negligent along with the other two parties”

I send my best wishes to the Crowley family and hope you are now able to move forward and that the quality of your life can now improve.

“That seems reasonable,”

“I mean, all he was doing was minding his own business, beating up members of public, vehicles and attending Police with a bamboo martial arts sword.”

“Then, when he exercises his basic human right to try and murder the Police officer with aforementioned sword, he was viciously shot!”

“If anything, $8 Million isn’t enough.”

“Poor petal.”

WHO COULD SAY IT BETTER

Diggety said :

creative_canberran said :

Hate to say it but the only negligence here was the officer didn’t aim a few inches further either way.
This really has become a lottery that rewards stupidity. Let’s consider a few things:

1) He was already on a disability pension resulting from injuries sustained in a cliff fall overseas and two car accidents

2) He was already living with his parents in a caravan at their home.

3) His only contributions to the community seem to be as a life-long member of the Labor Party (no, that’s not a joke) and a devout Christian so dedicated to his faith that he lept up during services declaring he was Jesus and had 1000 years to save the world.

The point of compensation under torts is to return someone to the position they were in before the negligence occurred, not to reward someone and enrich them for it. He clearly hasn’t lost potential employment income, he didn’t have employment potential to begin with. He was already in receipt of the pension for physical injuries. And there’s no suggestion he in any other way contributed to society that, by virtue of this accident, he is no longer able to.

creative_canberran said :

BTW to anyone who may be thinking of saying we should show this person some respect. Let me remind you that many people with more severe conditions than him are able to lead productive lives. Respect is earned, it is not awarded by default and should not be confused with pity.

+1.

Well said creative.

Is their a sliding scale of “productive member of society”? Where can I find the data base that chronicles our individual efforts to produce? Which department overseas the judgments and enforce the expulsion of those that fail to fall above the line in production? Where do they go when they fall below? What kind of production and contribution is required to be part of your society?. Can I find a list or maybe a guide to worthiness? Does worthiness accumulate or does it have to be maintained at a certain level? What level is ok? Can I purchase a top-up of worthiness? Can I trade my worthiness with the less worthy, thus creating production and increasing my own base worthiness?

Who sets the price on what has worth? Is worth a real word or made up? I just don’t get it.

At least we all know the net worth of Johnathon to be 8 million. That would seem to be a lot of worth. Regardless of how he came by it, its a lot of worth. So Johnathon would seem to be secure in our society, at least while hes still worth millions.

Of course hes worth nothing to you if he takes his millions and spends it in NSW. Is that allowed, the transfer of “worth” interstate or does it apply on a national level? Would that make him worthless to us but worthy in NSW?

Haven’t you been paying attention? Apparently, it’s virtually impossible for Police to shoot you in the leg. Apparently, they are trained to aim for the largest part of the body mass. Mr Crowley must have had a huge neck.

That’s funny

Seriously though, cannot believe this fella has been awarded this amount of money for running a muck..

if given the choice, i’d rather they kept the 8 million, and I keep use of my arms and legs. Having said that, im one to avoid fights with police, particularly when presented with capsicum spray and/or a gun.

Violet68 said :

I thought it was interesting how members of the public were able to deal with Mr Crowley without injury “despite their lack of mental health training” yet Police could not. I hope this decision brings about some much needed change.

Hmmmm, yes, they called Police after fleeing …….

dazzab said :

“Last month, three years after reserving her decision, Justice Hilary Penfold found the officer negligent along with the other two parties.”

I suppose all of you having a go at the decision have carefully reviewed all the evidence and know all the facts of the case? Only thing worse than trial by media seems to be trial by RIOTACT.

Yes, have you”?

Violet68 said :

The point of compensation under torts is to return someone to the position they were in before the negligence occurred, not to reward someone and enrich them for it.

I fail to see how physical impairment and being unable to use your limbs properly is either a reward or an enrichment. Mr Crowley is definitely not restored to the position he was in prior to the negligence, nor is he ever likely to be. Are you saying all people who might live in a caravan, or receive a DSP, or are deeply spiritual/religious, or slightly eccentric, mentally ill, or perhaps a member of the ALP cannot contribute to society in meaningful ways and should all be shot dead (not just permanently maimed)? Another word for that is genocide.

No thats called defending innocent people from violent acts. So why should the people that defend innocent citizens be sued for putting their bodies and/or lives on the line…… Thats apparently “genocide” !!!!!

Gerry-Built said :

blatherer said :

Ive been there and when you ‘lose the plot’ everything you do seems justified and logical at the time. Its a horrible disconnection from reality which is tormenting in itself.

As far as I can see, they tried reasoning, they tried capsicum spray, the next logical step was to use a gun. The Police simply cannot allow someone to go on threatening lives and property whilst someone’s psychotic episode plays out. At what point do you consider a weapon, a weapon? The Police need the power to Police, and a finding like this will leave them second guessing themselves, rather than being able to react – the danger of that is obvious…

ACT Mental Health services?? Community Care – Case management for known consumer of mental health service?? Early intervention to prevent acute unmanageable psychotic break and harm to self, others and community?? Who had the primary responsibility to keep community safe?? Police are only now being trained to deal with people in the community who present with major mental illnesses/ disorders. I believe it would of been very difficult for police to contain the presented chaos and potential chaos in the community.

dungfungus said :

Some media reports (such as the one quoted here) refer to this person as a quadriplegic yet I have seen TV footage of him several times with apparent full use of his arms. Clearly, the guy is not a quadriplegic. Anyone else notice this?
The real victims here are the police officer involved who was doing his duty and the parents who have to clean up the mess (both literally and figuretively)

I wonder if this is a case of someone who did not have the spinal cord completely severed, leaving partial use of upper body and respiratory function??

The point of compensation under torts is to return someone to the position they were in before the negligence occurred, not to reward someone and enrich them for it.

I fail to see how physical impairment and being unable to use your limbs properly is either a reward or an enrichment. Mr Crowley is definitely not restored to the position he was in prior to the negligence, nor is he ever likely to be. Are you saying all people who might live in a caravan, or receive a DSP, or are deeply spiritual/religious, or slightly eccentric, mentally ill, or perhaps a member of the ALP cannot contribute to society in meaningful ways and should all be shot dead (not just permanently maimed)? Another word for that is genocide.

I thought it was interesting how members of the public were able to deal with Mr Crowley without injury “despite their lack of mental health training” yet Police could not. I hope this decision brings about some much needed change.

“Last month, three years after reserving her decision, Justice Hilary Penfold found the officer negligent along with the other two parties.”

I suppose all of you having a go at the decision have carefully reviewed all the evidence and know all the facts of the case? Only thing worse than trial by media seems to be trial by RIOTACT.

If you think a shinai is not capable of causing serious injury, then you’re kidding yourself.

‘Serious’ welts and bruises is my experience. Maybe if swung really hard and you got the tip right on the temple. Fatalities or serious injuries can only really occur if a slat breaks and you thrust at the face or neck.

He’s clearly from a reprobate family: his ingrate father responded to the payout by complaining that it isn’t enough, sounding petulant and very unpleasant.

And there will still be posters who will claim that years of smoking dope has no ill-effect.

Lenient said :

My respects to Mr Crowley, he has help contribute to justice.

“He has help contribute to justice” …me fail english, that’s unpossible?

creative_canberran said :

Hate to say it but the only negligence here was the officer didn’t aim a few inches further either way.
This really has become a lottery that rewards stupidity. Let’s consider a few things:

1) He was already on a disability pension resulting from injuries sustained in a cliff fall overseas and two car accidents

2) He was already living with his parents in a caravan at their home.

3) His only contributions to the community seem to be as a life-long member of the Labor Party (no, that’s not a joke) and a devout Christian so dedicated to his faith that he lept up during services declaring he was Jesus and had 1000 years to save the world.

The point of compensation under torts is to return someone to the position they were in before the negligence occurred, not to reward someone and enrich them for it. He clearly hasn’t lost potential employment income, he didn’t have employment potential to begin with. He was already in receipt of the pension for physical injuries. And there’s no suggestion he in any other way contributed to society that, by virtue of this accident, he is no longer able to.

creative_canberran said :

BTW to anyone who may be thinking of saying we should show this person some respect. Let me remind you that many people with more severe conditions than him are able to lead productive lives. Respect is earned, it is not awarded by default and should not be confused with pity.

+1.

Well said creative.

Shot in the spine & life in a wheelchair for going around waving a piece of bamboo. Well done Police.

Pity you weren’t there to deal with it. I’m sure you’re 6’8’’, 130kg of muscle, with a black belt in seven different disciplines, like all the other hard men on the internet.

Anyway, the argument on this thread about whether or not police involved were justified in using their weapons is a moot point, really. Penfold found police did not breach their duty of care in relation to their use of force (spray, baton, firearm).

“All the evidence is against the possibility that the shooting was an accidental outcome of negligence by SC Pitkethly in handling his gun; rather, the shooting was quite intentional, and it has been conceded on behalf of Jonathan that it was a justified response to the threat that SC Pitkethly believed he was facing.”

“Accordingly, I find that SC Pitkethly did not breach the duty of care owed to Jonathan in his use of the various weapons available to him.”

It may help to actually read the judgment to find out how the police breached their duty of care (according to the judge).

Spideydog said :

Lenient said :

My respects to Mr Crowley, he has help contribute to justice. The only thing less lethal than the bamboo kendo “sword” in a martial arts store must be the plastic tai chi swords. The situation was badly handled by defendants, hopefully the payout will act as a disincentive to this happening again. Anyone could have walked up and disarmed the person with their bare hands.

Another “armchair” critic. It’s obviously as easy as that, thats why so many people got assaulted by a guy with a little stick. Pfft.

+1 and agree. It’s so easy for these people who don’t have to come face to face with the danger to be critical of those that are after the fact. The guys and girls in the AFP can face up to this danger at any given time and are expected to react for the Community and themselves (safety of). And yet we have those morons who say ‘why didn’t they do this, why didn’t they shoot him in the left ear lobe instead, etc, etc.

They acted in this case – and they acted quickly. If this was in Victoria or NSW, he would still get compensation but the ‘negligence’ wouldn’t be on the AFP (though perhaps the ACT Mental Health would still have a case answer).

And if the folk from the AFP are reading this – thank you for what you all do and keep up the great work!!!

Lenient said :

Yeah, funny …… A martial arts “Stick” that can cave a head in.
Wrong, this was a shinai, 500g of bamboo made specifically to avoid injury. The end (“point of the sword”) has a cap of soft leather on it, which help keep the four slats of the ‘blade’ together, so even a thrust is fairly harmless. A broomstick is far more dangerous. Mind you, you can get nasty splinters off them.

Anyway, hopefully the shooter and shot (and families) get through this ordeal and some good comes out of it terms of others not getting shot.

If you think a shinai is not capable of causing serious injury, then you’re kidding yourself.

Lenient said :

Yeah, funny …… A martial arts “Stick” that can cave a head in.
Wrong, this was a shinai, 500g of bamboo made specifically to avoid injury. The end (“point of the sword”) has a cap of soft leather on it, which help keep the four slats of the ‘blade’ together, so even a thrust is fairly harmless. A broomstick is far more dangerous. Mind you, you can get nasty splinters off them.

Anyway, hopefully the shooter and shot (and families) get through this ordeal and some good comes out of it terms of others not getting shot.

Especially when it’s described as being “less dangerous than bokut?”. Yes your completely right, all you’ll get is a nasty splinter. So I presume you would be quite happy to stand in front of someone smashing you about the head full steam with this “splinter stick” huh?

Chief Ten Beers said :

$8 Million? Seems easier than the lottery or working for a couple decades. Might get pissed tonight and wave a few bamboo swords in public.

Hopefully I can just get shot somewhere else though, in the leg would be fine. I’d be happy to settle for $1 Million.

Haven’t you been paying attention? Apparently, it’s virtually impossible for Police to shoot you in the leg. Apparently, they are trained to aim for the largest part of the body mass. Mr Crowley must have had a huge neck.

Im sorry for all involved but clearly it is time to review Mental Health ACT which obvisouly failed to have sufficient control orders in place for the person concerned in the first place which allowed this situation to get to this point. They seem to think that mental health care in the ACT is the sole responsibility of the family and friends. This is not the case.

$8 Million? Seems easier than the lottery or working for a couple decades. Might get pissed tonight and wave a few bamboo swords in public.

Hopefully I can just get shot somewhere else though, in the leg would be fine. I’d be happy to settle for $1 Million.

Yeah, funny …… A martial arts “Stick” that can cave a head in.
Wrong, this was a shinai, 500g of bamboo made specifically to avoid injury. The end (“point of the sword”) has a cap of soft leather on it, which help keep the four slats of the ‘blade’ together, so even a thrust is fairly harmless. A broomstick is far more dangerous. Mind you, you can get nasty splinters off them.

Anyway, hopefully the shooter and shot (and families) get through this ordeal and some good comes out of it terms of others not getting shot.

Lenient said :

My respects to Mr Crowley, he has help contribute to justice. The only thing less lethal than the bamboo kendo “sword” in a martial arts store must be the plastic tai chi swords. The situation was badly handled by defendants, hopefully the payout will act as a disincentive to this happening again. Anyone could have walked up and disarmed the person with their bare hands.

Another “armchair” critic. It’s obviously as easy as that, thats why so many people got assaulted by a guy with a little stick. Pfft.

The victim of the shooting was psychotic at the time. One would assume the Police were not. Whether this person was “contributing” to society in a manner that was “deemed” suitable – or whether or not he should be alive – is not up to any of you to decide – unless, of course, you believe your are some sort of God.

I was always under the impression that police are taught to ‘double tap’, that is, fire two rounds at the target. What happened to the second round? A shame if it went wide, a nice grouping would have solved a lot of problems.

My respects to Mr Crowley, he has help contribute to justice. The only thing less lethal than the bamboo kendo “sword” in a martial arts store must be the plastic tai chi swords. The situation was badly handled by defendants, hopefully the payout will act as a disincentive to this happening again. Anyone could have walked up and disarmed the person with their bare hands.

Some media reports (such as the one quoted here) refer to this person as a quadriplegic yet I have seen TV footage of him several times with apparent full use of his arms. Clearly, the guy is not a quadriplegic. Anyone else notice this?
The real victims here are the police officer involved who was doing his duty and the parents who have to clean up the mess (both literally and figuretively)

Calamity said :

It was a stick.

Yeah, funny …… A martial arts “Stick” that can cave a head in.

I bet you wouldn’t think it was just a “stick” if you were on the ground about to get your head caved in.

These officers went in to protect the community that this man was terrorising and assaulting, they put their bodies and lives on the line and the reward …….. they get sued. Absolute disgrace.

So does this now mean Police, or indeed any of the emergency services may pause or even balk at helping as it may mean you get sued if you get attacked.

Shot in the spine & life in a wheelchair for going around waving a piece of bamboo. Well done Police.

Obviously an elite force.

blatherer said :

Ive been there and when you ‘lose the plot’ everything you do seems justified and logical at the time. Its a horrible disconnection from reality which is tormenting in itself.

As far as I can see, they tried reasoning, they tried capsicum spray, the next logical step was to use a gun. The Police simply cannot allow someone to go on threatening lives and property whilst someone’s psychotic episode plays out. At what point do you consider a weapon, a weapon? The Police need the power to Police, and a finding like this will leave them second guessing themselves, rather than being able to react – the danger of that is obvious…

Well, one things for sure, the Police will be making sure it never happens again and stick/knife/bat/frog/broken cartons of milk wielding nutso’s will get two to the chest every time….with a third to the brain box just to be certain!

BTW to anyone who may be thinking of saying we should show this person some respect. Let me remind you that many people with more severe conditions than him are able to lead productive lives. Respect is earned, it is not awarded by default and should not be confused with pity.

taninaus said :

It is good he got some money out of this, I am always surprised with this story that the police didn’t just take out his legs instead of shooting him in the neck.

I thought this forum had successfully culled off the idiots who think “shooting someone in the legs” is EVER an option.

It isn’t. Ever.

A gun is to be used to shoot at the centre of seen mass and that is the only application Police are trained to use it for. It is only to protect self or others from the imminent threat of serious injury or death.

In this case, the Police in question (2 experienced Senior Constables, now both Sergeants) were in fear for their lives and had seconds to make a decision that has now been debated, picked apart and deliberated on for over 10 years. Try and put yourselves in their shoes and then try and imagine how hard the last years have been for those officers.

psychologically impaired man…plainly not cognisant of the real world…
and you guys simply pour scorn upon him. Shame on you.

If you were in the same extremely distressful situation and came out of it a paraplegic you wouldn’t be writing such diatribes. Have some respect for the mentally ill.

Ive been there and when you ‘lose the plot’ everything you do seems justified and logical at the time. Its a horrible disconnection from reality which is tormenting in itself.

As much as im loathe to say it..a Taser might have been handy here.

There but for the grace of God…

What an absolute joke.

It is good he got some money out of this, I am always surprised with this story that the police didn’t just take out his legs instead of shooting him in the neck.

But, I wonder if any of the money will go to pay back the tax payer for the care he has received – as is the norm for cases where funding or damages are paid?

I don’t known enough about the ‘weapon’ to form a strong opinion.
I’d say more police having Tasers would be a very good measure to take to ensure similar instances don’t happen in the future.

also related
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/02/14/3138533.htm?site=canberrahttp://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/02/14/3138533.htm?site=canberra

This decision is absolutely appalling for too many reasons to elaborate on and makes my blood boil.

I suppose the one good thing is that every person who was terrorized that day in Chapman can now sue Mr Crowley for the physical and psychological damage inflicted upon them by the ‘actions’ of Mr Crowley.

Perhaps the courts failed in their duty of care to protect the population of Canberra.

This a disgrace and I hope it is vigorously appealed. If you have to “reserve your decision” for 3 years, I find it hard to believe you can find negligence………

I think he won the damages as it was a stick and not a sword. If it was a sword there might not have been a case to answer.

Hate to say it but the only negligence here was the officer didn’t aim a few inches further either way.
This really has become a lottery that rewards stupidity. Let’s consider a few things:

1) He was already on a disability pension resulting from injuries sustained in a cliff fall overseas and two car accidents

2) He was already living with his parents in a caravan at their home.

3) His only contributions to the community seem to be as a life-long member of the Labor Party (no, that’s not a joke) and a devout Christian so dedicated to his faith that he lept up during services declaring he was Jesus and had 1000 years to save the world.

The point of compensation under torts is to return someone to the position they were in before the negligence occurred, not to reward someone and enrich them for it. He clearly hasn’t lost potential employment income, he didn’t have employment potential to begin with. He was already in receipt of the pension for physical injuries. And there’s no suggestion he in any other way contributed to society that, by virtue of this accident, he is no longer able to.

cops involved should counter sue him for 8 million + $1 for the stress he has caused them

Nice work if you can get it.

Ozi said :

That seems reasonable,

I mean, all he was doing was minding his own business, beating up members of public, vehicles and attending Police with a bamboo martial arts sword.

Then, when he exercises his basic human right to try and murder the Police officer with aforementioned sword, he was viciously shot!

If anything, $8 Million isn’t enough.

Poor petal.

+1

Couldn’t have said it better m’self.

In my humble opinion thisdecision is quite f@#ked up.

Personally I’d thank all of our guys and gals in blue for doing an excellent job within our community. Keep your chins up.

As for Mr Crowley – he should take his $8 million bucks and use $6 million to get rebuilt with bionics and put the remaining $2 million through the pokies.

@1

Another one I see.

Once negligence was found on the part of ACTP he was always going to get a fair chunk. It’s not like he’s going to buy a solid gold mansion with the money. He has to pay for round the clock care for the rest of his life. Can never work or do anything for himself again. Seems a logical amount to me.

Whether the initial judgment was correct (on the negligence) is another issue on which I have no comment as I haven’t read the judgment.

Good policing is meant to offer better alternatives to shooting people and making them quadriplegics.

Ozi said :

That seems reasonable,

I mean, all he was doing was minding his own business, beating up members of public, vehicles and attending Police with a bamboo martial arts sword.

Then, when he exercises his basic human right to try and murder the Police officer with aforementioned sword, he was viciously shot!

If anything, $8 Million isn’t enough.

Poor petal.

Nice way of taking the piss. Took me a minute to figure out you were being sarcastic 🙂

It was a stick.

That seems reasonable after all we aren’t in Victoria, where having a mental illness is a capital offence. The correct course of action when someone is going bananas with a shinai is to take it off them rather than shoot them in the neck.

That money could have gone to the Police firearm training course to teach them to shoot 4 inches higher.

Ozi said :

That seems reasonable,

I mean, all he was doing was minding his own business, beating up members of public, vehicles and attending Police with a bamboo martial arts sword.

Then, when he exercises his basic human right to try and murder the Police officer with aforementioned sword, he was viciously shot!

If anything, $8 Million isn’t enough.

Poor petal.

Ozi said :

That seems reasonable,

I mean, all he was doing was minding his own business, beating up members of public, vehicles and attending Police with a bamboo martial arts sword.

Then, when he exercises his basic human right to try and murder the Police officer with aforementioned sword, he was viciously shot!

If anything, $8 Million isn’t enough.

Poor petal.

Ha ha ha gold.

That seems reasonable,

I mean, all he was doing was minding his own business, beating up members of public, vehicles and attending Police with a bamboo martial arts sword.

Then, when he exercises his basic human right to try and murder the Police officer with aforementioned sword, he was viciously shot!

If anything, $8 Million isn’t enough.

Poor petal.