Voter action needed following Dickson shops debacle

rubaiyat said :

A classic example of people not seeing what they are looking at:

http://images-2.domain.com.au/2014/06/12/5504372/1402638462740.jpg-620×349.jpg

The magnificent panoramic view from the Wayfarer Apartments in Belconnen of the car parks below and the stunning beauty of the Westfield Shopping Mall, never designed to be seen from any vantage point except inside.

Well its certainly not to my likeing – nor obviously to yours, but some probably actually like that sort of view to a concrete jungle. If u want to live in a CBD in Canberra, thats the sort of offering/view you will often get.

Its probably not so much “people not seeing what they are looking at”. Its probably more like they either don’t mind that view or they are prepared to trade that off for the convenience of the location – especially so with investors with their negative geared rental portfolios.

The town planners and building approval/development people in the ACT Government have a lot to be held accountable for.

In any event, welcome to the new “grown up” Canberra. Enjoy !

Realm said :

rubaiyat said :

Realm said :

John Moulis said :

Realm said :

sepi said :

Dickson is old, extremely tired, and run down. It needs a major refurbishment.

Yeah, just look how well the “refurbishment” at Manuka shops went. That Manuka Plaza monstrosity must surely go down as the most disastrous property development in Canberra’s history.

You’ve got to be joking, surely. Or at least greatly exaggerating. It was by no means a perfect development but to call it the most disastrous property development in Canberra’s history is extremely over the top. And it’s short comings were completely unrelated to what is proposed for Dickson. The Manuka development tossed Starbucks, Dymocks, Sanity (All chain stores) into what was essentially a cafe/boutique shopping precinct in one of the richest parts of Canberra. It didn’t fit the mould. The Dickson development is adding two supermarkets to compete with one of the most successful Woolworths in the country, and minimalistic apartments in a low-socio economic area. They’re not even comparable.

Going on what we have seen so far of the Dickson Proposal there IS a lot in common.

It is also simply bloody awful.

The fact that the median house price in Red Hill is almost double that of Dickson immediately makes them two vastly different, incomparable proposals

It may be pink and have bows on it, that has nothing to do with failed design.

You can’t force bad design on people. If you can’t see how it is bad, that is a problem.

You especially have a problem if you claim that it had special local needs that it didn’t meet and that that wasn’t just an ADDITIONAL reason for its failure. The rest of Manuka doesn’t have high architectural or building values, so that is a furphy anyway.

It didn’t fail because it is pretty tasteless and unattractive, which it is, it failed because of the awkward access, layout, flow, and juxtaposition with the only relatively easy to get to and successful businesses of the MacDonalds drive through and the Coles supermarket, because there is no other supermarket locally.

Position, access and visibility and relationships to competing or complementary commercial spaces are what dictates the success or failure of developments. I can take you on a tour of most shopping malls and centres and point out to exactly where and why businesses, which already have a high failure rate, really struggle to stay above water.

If you can’t picture it, I can put it in terms of like a plant. Specific plants do well or die according to their environment. Few will succeed in dark, hidden spaces with no nutrition, water or pollinating insects, especially if there is a large dominating plant overshadowing them. There are some plants that specialise in these spaces, usually some tough weed that is not seen as useful to us. The same in property. Bad design leads to low returns, leads to bad tenants or a fast cycling of tenants, leads to further decline, then the real estate agent, palm readers, hock shops and tattoo parlors take over before another cycle of decline leads to painted over windows and eventually vandalism and demolition.

I have a feeling I may as well be trying to describe the workings of an internal combustion engine to a witchdoctor.

The point being is it actually is cheaper to design something well, than end up not letting it, having to do very expensive remedial work and possibly demolish it and start all over again. But the many bad developers out there and their employees can’t manage better or gamble that the savings they make up front, won’t bite them later on.

Usually they lose that bet. Then someone else comes along and does exactly the same and can’t figure out why making the same mistake over and over isn’t working.

Realm said :

The fact that the median house price in Red Hill is almost double that of Dickson immediately makes them two vastly different, incomparable proposals

The website you’re basing that assessment on actually is positing what they are calling “median house prices” comparing a FOUR bedroom house in Red Hill ($1,125,000) with a THREE bedroom house in Dickson ($669,000). Do you have a more accurate source to quote?

rubaiyat said :

It is absolutely fascinating that so many people can’t see what is literally staring them in the face.

They can’t see what is wrong with these developments, but at the gut level they avoid them. Their feet having more sense than their heads. Manuka Plaza virtually every business fails in the upper level, except the fast food outlets facing Flinders Way. Even the cheapie takeaway holes in the walls can’t make a go of it.

Downstairs the useless rump of space opposite Coles is an even worse graveyard of small businesses.

But ever onwards and “upwards”, next in Dickson, and today Geocon announced it is having the lease changed on their large development site at the west end of Gungahlin to allow 3 20 storey residential towers sitting on a fat podium. This is on top of their 27 storey apartment tower in Belconnen.

Both developments are a perfect match of Inner City apartments without the bothersome Inner City to go with them. They’ll have the obligatory cafe and hairdresser underneath so you’ll “scarsely need to leave.”

Typical arse backwards thinking, putting people as far from employment and real life as possible so they will face a long commute everyday. For what? Life out in the mostly dead remote suburbs?

There is no “need” for these residential high rises where they are. The only need is for the developer to try and get back the excessive amount of money they paid for land that was to be office space but is now unlettable.

I have never understood why people don’t like visiting the level above Coles. It’s not in a Mall, but outside. When there was a decent cafe up there I would visit it, and it was very pleasant place to sit.

rubaiyat said :

Realm said :

John Moulis said :

Realm said :

sepi said :

Dickson is old, extremely tired, and run down. It needs a major refurbishment.

Yeah, just look how well the “refurbishment” at Manuka shops went. That Manuka Plaza monstrosity must surely go down as the most disastrous property development in Canberra’s history.

You’ve got to be joking, surely. Or at least greatly exaggerating. It was by no means a perfect development but to call it the most disastrous property development in Canberra’s history is extremely over the top. And it’s short comings were completely unrelated to what is proposed for Dickson. The Manuka development tossed Starbucks, Dymocks, Sanity (All chain stores) into what was essentially a cafe/boutique shopping precinct in one of the richest parts of Canberra. It didn’t fit the mould. The Dickson development is adding two supermarkets to compete with one of the most successful Woolworths in the country, and minimalistic apartments in a low-socio economic area. They’re not even comparable.

Going on what we have seen so far of the Dickson Proposal there IS a lot in common.

It is also simply bloody awful.

The fact that the median house price in Red Hill is almost double that of Dickson immediately makes them two vastly different, incomparable proposals

A classic example of people not seeing what they are looking at:

http://images-2.domain.com.au/2014/06/12/5504372/1402638462740.jpg-620×349.jpg

The magnificent panoramic view from the Wayfarer Apartments in Belconnen of the car parks below and the stunning beauty of the Westfield Shopping Mall, never designed to be seen from any vantage point except inside.

It is absolutely fascinating that so many people can’t see what is literally staring them in the face.

They can’t see what is wrong with these developments, but at the gut level they avoid them. Their feet having more sense than their heads. Manuka Plaza virtually every business fails in the upper level, except the fast food outlets facing Flinders Way. Even the cheapie takeaway holes in the walls can’t make a go of it.

Downstairs the useless rump of space opposite Coles is an even worse graveyard of small businesses.

But ever onwards and “upwards”, next in Dickson, and today Geocon announced it is having the lease changed on their large development site at the west end of Gungahlin to allow 3 20 storey residential towers sitting on a fat podium. This is on top of their 27 storey apartment tower in Belconnen.

Both developments are a perfect match of Inner City apartments without the bothersome Inner City to go with them. They’ll have the obligatory cafe and hairdresser underneath so you’ll “scarsely need to leave.”

Typical arse backwards thinking, putting people as far from employment and real life as possible so they will face a long commute everyday. For what? Life out in the mostly dead remote suburbs?

There is no “need” for these residential high rises where they are. The only need is for the developer to try and get back the excessive amount of money they paid for land that was to be office space but is now unlettable.

Realm said :

John Moulis said :

Realm said :

sepi said :

Dickson is old, extremely tired, and run down. It needs a major refurbishment.

Yeah, just look how well the “refurbishment” at Manuka shops went. That Manuka Plaza monstrosity must surely go down as the most disastrous property development in Canberra’s history.

You’ve got to be joking, surely. Or at least greatly exaggerating. It was by no means a perfect development but to call it the most disastrous property development in Canberra’s history is extremely over the top. And it’s short comings were completely unrelated to what is proposed for Dickson. The Manuka development tossed Starbucks, Dymocks, Sanity (All chain stores) into what was essentially a cafe/boutique shopping precinct in one of the richest parts of Canberra. It didn’t fit the mould. The Dickson development is adding two supermarkets to compete with one of the most successful Woolworths in the country, and minimalistic apartments in a low-socio economic area. They’re not even comparable.

Going on what we have seen so far of the Dickson Proposal there IS a lot in common.

It is also simply bloody awful.

Realm said :

John Moulis said :

Realm said :

sepi said :

Dickson is old, extremely tired, and run down. It needs a major refurbishment.

Yeah, just look how well the “refurbishment” at Manuka shops went. That Manuka Plaza monstrosity must surely go down as the most disastrous property development in Canberra’s history.

You’ve got to be joking, surely. Or at least greatly exaggerating. It was by no means a perfect development but to call it the most disastrous property development in Canberra’s history is extremely over the top. And it’s short comings were completely unrelated to what is proposed for Dickson. The Manuka development tossed Starbucks, Dymocks, Sanity (All chain stores) into what was essentially a cafe/boutique shopping precinct in one of the richest parts of Canberra. It didn’t fit the mould. The Dickson development is adding two supermarkets to compete with one of the most successful Woolworths in the country, and minimalistic apartments in a low-socio economic area. They’re not even comparable.

No, it just was bloody awful.

No further explanation needed.

The residential part facing Captain Cook Crescent was I think the prototype for the Alexander Maconochie Centre.

John Moulis said :

Realm said :

sepi said :

Dickson is old, extremely tired, and run down. It needs a major refurbishment.

Yeah, just look how well the “refurbishment” at Manuka shops went. That Manuka Plaza monstrosity must surely go down as the most disastrous property development in Canberra’s history.

You’ve got to be joking, surely. Or at least greatly exaggerating. It was by no means a perfect development but to call it the most disastrous property development in Canberra’s history is extremely over the top. And it’s short comings were completely unrelated to what is proposed for Dickson. The Manuka development tossed Starbucks, Dymocks, Sanity (All chain stores) into what was essentially a cafe/boutique shopping precinct in one of the richest parts of Canberra. It didn’t fit the mould. The Dickson development is adding two supermarkets to compete with one of the most successful Woolworths in the country, and minimalistic apartments in a low-socio economic area. They’re not even comparable.

Realm said :

sepi said :

Dickson is old, extremely tired, and run down. It needs a major refurbishment.

Yeah, just look how well the “refurbishment” at Manuka shops went. That Manuka Plaza monstrosity must surely go down as the most disastrous property development in Canberra’s history.

arescarti42 said :

I’m sick of the claim that local residents are somehow universally opposed to the proposal.

I live in the area and can’t wait for Aldi and Coles to come to Dickson.

There inner north is already extremely well served by small grocery stores, which is fantastic, however they are not a replacement for the greater range and lower prices of a full line supermarket.

You need to remember that there are local residents and local residents. When the OP refers to local residents he means people like himself, owners of mainly detached dwellings who bought into the area decades ago and want to keep it for themselves — such as the former Greens MLA who, according to the Canberra Times, is opposed to an apartment development on a former school site in Downer.

Then there’s the rest of us, apartment dwellers in the main, who appreciate being able to live in such a convenient area but want better amenities, even full-line supermarkets and food markets that the increased population can support. Oddly enough, I suspect our carbon footprint is on average substantially lower the other group who bang on about sustainability.

The thing is, local resident groups in Canberra invariably fail to represent the new generation who live in apartments.

I’m sick of the claim that local residents are somehow universally opposed to the proposal.

I live in the area and can’t wait for Aldi and Coles to come to Dickson.

There inner north is already extremely well served by small grocery stores, which is fantastic, however they are not a replacement for the greater range and lower prices of a full line supermarket.

sepi said :

Plenty of people shop at IGA. I would rather pay double than enter Dickson woolworths. there are plenty of supermarkets around – civic, gungahlin, and IGAs at Hackett and Ainslie. I don’t even see why Dickson really needs another supermarket.

the good parts of Dickson are the pool, the library, the restaurants, the little strips of shops and cafes you can walk along outside (fruit shop/health food/clothes/key cutter/bakeries/newsagent/banks etc).

Those will all be made worse under this new plan, all for the sake of getting another supermarket – I really don’t see the point of doing anything.

If this were indeed the case, the Dickson Woolworths wouldn’t even come close to being one of the busiest in the country, as people would instead just shop at the plethora of local IGAs in Hackett, Watson, Ainslie (Which is a fantastic IGA and may be an exception), O’Connor, Lyneham, etc. But it’s not, and people chose to shop at Woolworths because it is cheaper, and the range is better. This will only be improved by the addition of some competition.

Dickson is old, extremely tired, and run down. It needs a major refurbishment. And whilst I agree with you on environmental issues with the building proposal, asking for an innovative and architecturally advanced design is a bit rich for what is essentially a shopping centre in a lower-socio economic section of Canberra

Felix the Cat said :

So you want more supermarkets at Dickson but you don’t want a “big box” one such as Coles or Aldi. So you want an IGA type one which due to their smaller size have less buying power then the “big box” ones and therefore have higher retail prices so no one will shop there.

It’s more about not wanting the high density development that comes along with such proposals i think.

The local residents already have their little piece of inner city living and they don’t want anyone else partaking. Those people should live out in Gungahlin or South Tuggeranong and leave the leafy inner north/south alone for current residents.

Any squeeze on parking in Dickson and everyone will shop at Ainslie.

I’m fascinated that Woolworths actually has an Architectural department.

No sign in any of their developments of them doing anything “Architectural”.

I mentioned the same to the head of the Commonwealth Bank’s Architectural Office at a party once when we were introduced. Didn’t go down well.

It was spontaneous though. I had thought about it for years, that we seem to be past the days of public corporations actually caring enough about their buildings to make an effort.

Plenty of people shop at IGA. I would rather pay double than enter Dickson woolworths. there are plenty of supermarkets around – civic, gungahlin, and IGAs at Hackett and Ainslie. I don’t even see why Dickson really needs another supermarket.

the good parts of Dickson are the pool, the library, the restaurants, the little strips of shops and cafes you can walk along outside (fruit shop/health food/clothes/key cutter/bakeries/newsagent/banks etc).

Those will all be made worse under this new plan, all for the sake of getting another supermarket – I really don’t see the point of doing anything.

So you want more supermarkets at Dickson but you don’t want a “big box” one such as Coles or Aldi. So you want an IGA type one which due to their smaller size have less buying power then the “big box” ones and therefore have higher retail prices so no one will shop there.

Dear Bolbi and others

There has been a petition organised by others in the Dickson Residents Group. In fact due to some obscure rule within the local assembly, the first petition was not able to be tabled, so everyone had to go out and stand around the shops to re-do the petition. I must stress, people are happy enough to see changes and new shops – but not that monster. The aesthetics are just one major cause for disappointment. Surely for such an important site the Chief Minister (who lives locally) could insist on a signature piece of architecture. Maybe he has no design sense.

The frustrating thing is that while people have submitted clear and well researched objections to this monster big box, no-one knows what is happening ( are deals are being stitched up) behind closed doors within the planning agencies – so we are expecting to be let down again! Which is why I hinted that the next elections may have to be used to directly target the politician responsible for this, and many other (Yarralumla) debacles.

I’m interested, what level of support are you gaining for your position? Are you getting petitions with thousands of signatures? Are people objecting to the idea of having competition for the larger retailers? How many people are complaining about the aesthetics of the proposal?

I am so depressed that they are happily ruining dickson.

what can be done????