18 September 2012

The Muenster Photo remade in Canberra. How much space do those cars need?

| johnboy
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allara st photo

Amongst car hating transport advocates the Muenster photograph is the stuff of legend.

Over the weekend before last the Cycling Promotion Fund recreated the photo on Allara Street here in Canberra:

On Sunday 9th September 69 volunteers, 69 bicycles, 60 cars and one bus gathered in Canberra to recreate a world-renowned photograph taken more than 20 years ago to demonstrate the advantages of bus and bicycle travel in congested cities.

The captured image shows the typical space occupied in a city street by three common modes of transport—cars, bicycles and a bus—and is being made available free of charge to organisations, group and individuals to help promote the efficiency of public transport and cycling in congested cities.

“The image succinctly illustrates the greater space efficiency of bus and bicycle travel,” spokesperson for the Cycling Promotion Fund (CPF), Mr Stephen Hodge said.

“In the space it takes to accommodate 60 cars, cities can accommodate around sixteen buses or more than 600 bikes.”

While many developed nations are embracing active travel, Australia is missing major opportunities to develop efficient and convenient transport options that have significant health and economic benefits.

“Eight out of ten Australian adults still use a private motor vehicle to travel to work or full-time study, just 14% take public transport, 4% walk and a mere 2% cycle, with 30% of these trips in the cities under 3km” Mr Hodge said.

“If Australians continue on this path it is estimated that productivity loss due to avoidable congestion—the economic loss due to the amount of time wasted in traffic—will be $20 billion by 2020.”


UPDATE 18/09/12 11:44: There’s also a video of making the photograph:

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aidan said :

cea075 said :

If I only lived a couple of kms from my work, I’d certainly entertain the thought of riding. 14kms is just too far for me to ride when the car trip is just over 10 minutes (and nice and warm)

You average 80 km/h on your commute!?

Close enough to that. Living in Weston, straight onto the parkway at 6am and into the edge of Civic. Normally very little traffic to worry about.

Masquara said :

what’s the betting those cyclo-hypocrites ALL own cars?

maybe, but they’re not adding to the peak hour congestion if they ride, eh? wouldn’t want to have to cycle away to the coast for the weekend, but driving single occupant car in peak hour vs cycle/public transport – that’s the debate here.

and so they’re not being hypocrites, are they?

rhino said :

I’m assuming it’s a video of the start of a tour de France or something of that nature.

Not even close.

cea075 said :

If I only lived a couple of kms from my work, I’d certainly entertain the thought of riding. 14kms is just too far for me to ride when the car trip is just over 10 minutes (and nice and warm)

You average 80 km/h on your commute!?

..In much the same way that in nascar, cars can be literally touching bumpers at 250kph and side by side almost touching mirrors, but on your way to work, that isn’t quite a good idea.

davo101 said :

rhino said :

Not really.

I can’t view the video as it’s blocked at work, but I’m assuming it’s a video of the start of a tour de france or something of that nature. I’d say there’s a difference between that sort of thing and riding to work where there are both cars and pedestrians to avoid and there isn’t really anywhere they can ride too many bikes side by side.

rhino said :

Bikes need a fair bit of room to safely move around. Probably realistically as much as the cars here in this photo or more….. Bike riding is actually not that great for space saving when you think about it. they are less wide, but u need a decent gap in front of them.

Not really.

Yeah it is a tad biased in terms of the actual space taken up on the roads. At the lights on northbourne, cars would be that packed in. Not quite on the parkway, although they are not that much farther apart in peakhour haha. Whereas the bikes and pedestrians would definitely be nowhere near that close. The pedestrians could potentially walk that close if they wanted to though, but if it came to be that congested, it’d be like time square in new york or something and we’d basically be out of luck for transport haha. Although I guess it goes to show that their subway system plus walking is what they have to resort to in that level of extreme congestion. There are still cars driving around, but it actually looks more difficult in those busiest times for bicycles to get around just because of the massively dense walking crowd. Bikes need a fair bit of room to safely move around. Probably realistically as much as the cars here in this photo or more. And those cars can potentially take 5 people or more. Car pooling could help here. But walking is the best for minimising the space, but obviously not possible from your house to work in civic unless you live already in civic. Bike riding is actually not that great for space saving when you think about it. they are less wide, but u need a decent gap in front of them.

BicycleCanberra9:46 am 19 Sep 12

Antagonist said :

“The image succinctly illustrates the greater space efficiency of bus and bicycle travel,” spokesperson for the Cycling Promotion Fund (CPF), Mr Stephen Hodge said.”

Give me a steam roller and I will show you how those poncy cyclists can take up 100 times more road space than any bus 🙂

Motorist … coming through!

Be very careful what you joke about here! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZHathcQR8k

Antagonist said :

“The image succinctly illustrates the greater space efficiency of bus and bicycle travel,” spokesperson for the Cycling Promotion Fund (CPF), Mr Stephen Hodge said.”

Give me a steam roller and I will show you how those poncy cyclists can take up 100 times more road space than any bus 🙂

Motorist … coming through!

Hahaha, you forgot one thing, a cyclist is faster than a steam roller……

“The image succinctly illustrates the greater space efficiency of bus and bicycle travel,” spokesperson for the Cycling Promotion Fund (CPF), Mr Stephen Hodge said.”

Give me a steam roller and I will show you how those poncy cyclists can take up 100 times more road space than any bus 🙂

Motorist … coming through!

thy_dungeonman said :

If three people are on the bus then it is just as efficient space-wise as three cars. It seems stupid to cancel a bus with three or less people because it might inconvenience someone to the same degree as three cars. Think of the inconvenience for the people who can’t catch that service anymore.

I note despite quoting both points I made, you only responded to the first about the space vehicles take up.

What about the fuel? 11L turbocharged diesel to carry three people as you say people, the photo doesn’t really address that does it.

Deref said :

Skateboards? Dogsleds? Horses?

How about light rail? That’d be a hard one because the photo would have to span many kilometres.

Hang-gliders?

OpenYourMind10:30 pm 18 Sep 12

Holden Caulfield said :

When do the “customer satisfaction survey” results from the three types of commuters get released?

Or the numbers of productivity lost by transport method due to contracting illness due to commuting in inclement weather or sharing confined spaces with sick people?

Also, how many in the 69 bus commuters have missed a service in the last week because it arrived at the stop either before or after its advertised arrival?

We all know using cars so much has its drawbacks, but in Canberra, especially, there isn’t a reliable alternative.

I lived in London and the tube etc, while not perfect, was immeasurably suitable for getting around than anything ACTION could ever hope to offer.

Canberra doesn’t have the population density. Fix that or make the public transport system free/heavily subsidised so that is easier to forgive its many shortcomings.

Customer satisfaction survey? Just ask a few bicycle commuters. My money says that their eyes will light up and they’ll want to tell you about the wonderful ride they had to work. I know I’m not alone in saying that the days I do drive to work, I find myself looking at the bicycle riders and kicking myself for whatever reason I came up with to be stuck in a car. I know a lot of bicycle commuters and I’m hard pressed to think of one that doesn’t enjoy riding to work.

thy_dungeonman10:22 pm 18 Sep 12

c_c said :

But the photo is a fallacy in that it ignores the large part of the day when buses run near empty, taking up as much space or more than those few people would have in their own vehicles, and certainly burning a lot more fuel than they would have.

If three people are on the bus then it is just as efficient space-wise as three cars. It seems stupid to cancel a bus with three or less people because it might inconvenience someone to the same degree as three cars. Think of the inconvenience for the people who can’t catch that service anymore.

Postalgeek said :

c_c said :

I would suggest the solution in part to both traffic and public transport usage issues is to first look at breaking the traditional mould of when the day starts and finishes.

It’s moronic asking what peak time is, you should know, it’s painfully evident whether you car, bus or bike to work or school.

I do know. I wasn’t asking what peak hour is. I was asking what it is to you.

I’m trying to clarify what your point is, seeing as you said the photo was BS for assuming that “every one will be travelling to the same place, at the exact same time, and back again, to the same place, at the exact same time”.

And then you make the observation that “everybody crushes in to the city centres during a window in the morning, and then again during a window in the after noon”.

As for what time the day starts and finishes, in regards to traffic you might alleviate congestion through staggered start times, but you will still have parking problems as people’s shifts will still overlap.

I don’t go out much to the city at night and so I can’t comment on availability of buses at night. I understand what you’re saying about the apparent poor synchronisation of need and supply. Maybe you’re right and it’s something that needs to be looked at; the Nightrider program for example is restricted to warm months.

Exactly, staggered times would reduce congestion on roads, allow a smaller (and therefore less costly) bus fleet to service more people by spreading demand.

At the moment, everyone crushes in during two windows. And during those two windows, the above photo is true, you will get heaps of people on a bus taking up less space than they would in their own cars. But the photo is a fallacy in that it ignores the large part of the day when buses run near empty, taking up as much space or more than those few people would have in their own vehicles, and certainly burning a lot more fuel than they would have.

As for night time services, you wouldn’t rely on a bus reaching the outer suburbs after 9pm, and their all done by midnight.

Now do one with a train!

c_c said :

I would suggest the solution in part to both traffic and public transport usage issues is to first look at breaking the traditional mould of when the day starts and finishes.

It’s moronic asking what peak time is, you should know, it’s painfully evident whether you car, bus or bike to work or school.

I do know. I wasn’t asking what peak hour is. I was asking what it is to you.

I’m trying to clarify what your point is, seeing as you said the photo was BS for assuming that “every one will be travelling to the same place, at the exact same time, and back again, to the same place, at the exact same time”.

And then you make the observation that “everybody crushes in to the city centres during a window in the morning, and then again during a window in the after noon”.

As for what time the day starts and finishes, in regards to traffic you might alleviate congestion through staggered start times, but you will still have parking problems as people’s shifts will still overlap.

I don’t go out much to the city at night and so I can’t comment on availability of buses at night. I understand what you’re saying about the apparent poor synchronisation of need and supply. Maybe you’re right and it’s something that needs to be looked at; the Nightrider program for example is restricted to warm months.

Masquara said :

what’s the betting those cyclo-hypocrites ALL own cars?

Wow, you really are new to cycle threads, aren’t you?

Another option is to drive the car and park at an interchange to cut out the inefficient part of the bus route and then catch an express bus into the city. I’ve been doing it all year and it has been excellent. Might add 10 mins to the overall trip time door to desk, but I like to read on the bus so it isn’t all that bad.

what’s the betting those cyclo-hypocrites ALL own cars?

The perspective makes it look like there isn’t that much of a difference. Needs to be from a higher vantage point.

c_c said :

During peak hour, I can make it from Tuggeranong to Civic in under 30mins. On a bus… gosh how much time have you got..

From Kambah maybe………Try a couple of more suburbs south & get suck at Isabella Drive, then Atthlon Dve then the the end of Drakeford joining onto the Parkway & then slow down again at the Cotter Road, Glenloch interchange & then again onto the approach of Coranderrk St (or whatever it is called) when it joins Parkes way). I travelled that this morning at between 7 & 7:30. if I am later than that, say between 8 & 8:30 its 40 minutes or more.

I am not a car hater, I just think people shuld be more open minded. Someone said they wont ride because its 14km, bloody hell that is such a small distance its not funny. 10 minute car ride you say, does that include parking time & walking time? I bet it doesnt, add that in & you will almost be the some time as riding it once you get fit & you get to park right at work (or I do anyway).

Postalgeek said :

c_c said :

About the most simplistic, stupid contribution one could make to the debate over transport.

The photo assumes that every one will be travelling to the same place, at the exact same time, and back again, to the same place, at the exact same time. Which is BS.

So what exactly is ‘peak time’ to you?

While you’ve talked about time, you’ve neglected to address the key point of this photo, which is space. You haven’t said anything about how cars provide a superior solution to parking, one of the major issues in urban centers.
Yes, buses aren’t the be-all-and-end-all solution, nor are bicycles. No one says they are. That’s just what you’re projecting onto this discussion. And no doubt there are many motorists who won’t be swayed, but if they want to dismiss all alternative suggestions, well, their parking woes are going to be firmly entrenched.

I would suggest the solution in part to both traffic and public transport usage issues is to first look at breaking the traditional mould of when the day starts and finishes.

It’s moronic asking what peak time is, you should know, it’s painfully evident whether you car, bus or bike to work or school.

Everybody crushes in to the city centres during a window in the morning, and then again during a window in the after noon. The stupidly you’ve got next to no bus options late at night on nights when people generally crowd into the city, and you’ve got busses running empty during the middle of the day when no one needs them.

With apologies to Leonard Cohen; there’s a crack in everything, that’s how the light gets in…..or in the case of this debate how the darkness seeps in

c_c said :

About the most simplistic, stupid contribution one could make to the debate over transport.

The photo assumes that every one will be travelling to the same place, at the exact same time, and back again, to the same place, at the exact same time. Which is BS.

So what exactly is ‘peak time’ to you?

While you’ve talked about time, you’ve neglected to address the key point of this photo, which is space. You haven’t said anything about how cars provide a superior solution to parking, one of the major issues in urban centers.
Yes, buses aren’t the be-all-and-end-all solution, nor are bicycles. No one says they are. That’s just what you’re projecting onto this discussion. And no doubt there are many motorists who won’t be swayed, but if they want to dismiss all alternative suggestions, well, their parking woes are going to be firmly entrenched.

About the most simplistic, stupid contribution one could make to the debate over transport.

The photo assumes that every one will be travelling to the same place, at the exact same time, and back again, to the same place, at the exact same time. Which is BS.

When I’m stopped at the lights during the day beside a bus burning much more fuel and taking up much more space than my car, yet has only a couple of passengers, all I see is my tax dollars literally being burnt.

During peak hour, I can make it from Tuggeranong to Civic in under 30mins. On a bus… gosh how much time have you got.

So sick of these car hating advocates. Buses have their place, but they’re not a be all and end all solution, nor are the majority of car users going to be swayed by this.

Holden Caulfield2:42 pm 18 Sep 12

Holden Caulfield said :

When do the “customer satisfaction survey” results from the three types of commuters get released?

Or the numbers of productivity lost by transport method due to contracting illness due to commuting in inclement weather or sharing confined spaces with sick people?

Also, how many in the 69 bus commuters have missed a service in the last week because it arrived at the stop either before or after its advertised arrival?

We all know using cars so much has its drawbacks, but in Canberra, especially, there isn’t a reliable alternative.

I lived in London and the tube etc, while not perfect, was immeasurably superior for getting around than anything ACTION could ever hope to offer.

Canberra doesn’t have the population density. Fix that or make the public transport system free/heavily subsidised so that is easier to forgive its many shortcomings.

Holden Caulfield2:41 pm 18 Sep 12

When do the “customer satisfaction survey” results from the three types of commuters get released?

Or the numbers of productivity lost by transport method due to contracting illness due to commuting in inclement weather or sharing confined spaces with sick people?

Also, how many in the 69 bus commuters have missed a service in the last week because it arrived at the stop either before or after its advertised arrival?

We all know using cars so much has its drawbacks, but in Canberra, especially, there isn’t a reliable alternative.

I lived in London and the tube etc, while not perfect, was immeasurably suitable for getting around than anything ACTION could ever hope to offer.

Canberra doesn’t have the population density. Fix that or make the public transport system free/heavily subsidised so that is easier to forgive its many shortcomings.

Luckily Muenster didn’t shoot the original shot here or it would have been shot down by Rioters long before it ever became legendary.

Surely if we had a much higher density of housing, cycling, public transport and even scooters would be more prevelant on our roads.
Canberra is just too spread out to have an efficient public transportation system that would see higher utilisation rates, so we’re forced to drive.
If I only lived a couple of kms from my work, I’d certainly entertain the thought of riding. 14kms is just too far for me to ride when the car trip is just over 10 minutes (and nice and warm).
Don’t get me wrong, I love the green spaces around Canberra, and the way it has been designed for the most part, but I don’t believe that you’ll get more and more people using either bikes or the exiting public transport infrastructure until there’s a radical re-think on how we live and our city is layed out.

blueterrestra1:10 pm 18 Sep 12

Grail said :

…you are not going to travel down Tuggeranong Parkway with cars packed that tightly.

Are you sure? Looks like peak hour at 100km/h on the Parkway to me. If you can’t reach out and touch the car in front, you’re not close enough!

I’m not sure the photos prove anything, for either “side”. Anyway, each method of transport serves a different purpose, just sometimes for people don’t choose the best option

jase! said :

much like having the bikes sitting even closer than they would be in a professional peleton

In a peloton, the riders would be on the bikes. A peloton is just as packed as those bikes, if not more tightly packed – to the point that slight deviation from a straight line can cause pile-ups of dozens of cyclists. Similarly, you are not going to travel down Tuggeranong Parkway with cars packed that tightly.

What this photo does show is the relative area consumed on roads. In bike sheds you can hang bikes off the ceiling much closer together than the parked bikes in this shot. You can’t hang cars off the ceiling to save space, you won’t squeeze cars in this tightly at a parking lot, and you don’t need to park busses since they will keep running until returning to the depot (which will not be in the space-constrained business district).

jase! said :

much like having the bikes sitting even closer than they would be in a professional peleton

Wouldn’t want to be driving my car as closely packed as these are either, jase.

Skateboards? Dogsleds? Horses?

How about light rail? That’d be a hard one because the photo would have to span many kilometres.

Onceler said :

Nice concept; would be complete with a motorbikes/scooters shot.

probably doesn’t suit the argument that the organisers were trying to get across.

much like having the bikes sitting even closer than they would be in a professional peleton

Nice concept; would be complete with a motorbikes/scooters shot.

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