Indigenous protest mooted for 2009.

sepi said :

I remember one shocking fact, which said it cost 18 million, to garnishee the payments of only a handful of people (under a thousand), to ensure they bought food and nothing else. = So basically they could have just bought truckloads of vegies with their 18 million, and sent them to those few communities – it would have been cheaper and more effective. And not made the communities really angry and resentful for years to come.

And people wonder why I’m a libertarian.

Clown Killer: I went to Eddies so I never miss an opportunity to take a dig at Marist.

I was deliberately avoiding that one Jakez!

The premise as stated to the media was about protecting children from abuse – dog whistle politics at it’s nastiest.

There are many problems with the intervention at ground level.

– They cancelled a lot of smaller programs that were actually working andhad community support, to bring in the intervention programs.

– the one-size-fits-all approach is known not to work well with indigenous communities.

– they garnisheed people’s payments to only allow them to buy food – yet they don’t do this to anyone else in the country.

– the useless medical checks, designed only to uncover abuse, not to treat it.

They would have been better off just funding the extra police and health services, and letting those on the ground implement it. It would have saved a motza.

I remember one shocking fact, which said it cost 18 million, to garnishee the payments of only a handful of people (under a thousand), to ensure they bought food and nothing else. = So basically they could have just bought truckloads of vegies with their 18 million, and sent them to those few communities – it would have been cheaper and more effective. And not made the communities really angry and resentful for years to come.

Yeah and imagine if you asked around at Marist!

Farn, I suspect it’s got somthing to do with telling these communities what’s good for them and imposing outide ideas on them about what they want and need (which is by no means to be taken as a defence of they way things might have been done befor).

In mainstream Australia when communities take a stand against government actions, no matter how much sense they make, it’s hailed as a win for democracy – a recent example being the Hume data centre. For some reason when Aboriginal communities exercise the same freedoms we feel compelled to lable them as ignorant, ungrateful and undeserving.

Given that the fundamental premise of the intervention was to protect children against sexual abuse, it seems lost that only 13 confimed cases have come to light in all of this. I’d wager you’d get more than that if you asked around at Daramarlan Colledge.

Reading the progress the NTER has made, it doesn’t sound like a bad thing at all. 57 additional police officers, 750 new and 2500 upgraded houses doesn’t sound like something to be protested against.

Well it was more a dual statement on the philosophical concept of ownership and the homogeneity of ‘aboriginal studies’ in school but cheers.

@jakez – I suggest you look up Vincent Lingiari and the Wave Hill Strike which eventually resulted in the Aboriginal Land Rights Act which you should also have a squiz at. Alternatively you could listen to Paul Kelly’s “from little things, big things grow” which tells the whole story in 11 verses.

Or as Pincher Manguari, one of the strikers, put it: “We want them Vestey mob all go away from here. Wave Hill Aboriginal people bin called Gurindji. We bin here long time before them Vestey mob. This is our country, all this bin Gurindji country. Wave Hill bin our country. We want this land; we strike for that”

BTW – why are we taking a report in the Green Left Weekly seriously? The only people it talks for are about three left-over apologists for Stalin.

(Sorta says plenty about the tent embassy demographic.)

Why do aboriginals living in whoop whoop expect to have good medical services?

Because it’s an inalienable human right? Seriously, people, if you can’t be arsed informing yourself about the basics of an issue, why don’t you just stay the f.ck out of the debate?

“Why is it OK to blame an entire ‘culture’ (whites) for a situation yet considered racist to apportion some responsibility to another culture?”

Maybe this idea of ‘blame’ is what sets people off so strongly on this topic. I don’t feel blamed or at fault. But I do feel like we should be doing something to sort out the current mess.

Why do aboriginals living in whoop whoop expect to have good medical services? If you want ’em move to Redfern or Narrabundah,

Am I wrong about aboriginal custom? Has my schooling let me down?

Yes and yes. Your first mistake was thinking that there’s such a thing as ‘aboriginal custom’. It makes about as much sense as thinking there’s such a thing as ‘Asian custom’ then being upset when you don’t get chopsticks in a Thai restaurant.

but good intentions, court decisions, treaties

Do you object to Indigenous people using the courts as a general rule, or just when western law happens to rule that they’re right? And what treaties? Scratch that – what treaty?

Clown Killer said :

The idea that land ownership is incompatible with the spiritual and secular lives of Aboriginal people is a bit of a furphy. In many instances traditional rights to land will rest with an individual or small group of people within a specific community – in a formal sence these people are the ‘traditional owners’ of that land and have a right – recognised by the rest of the Aboriginal community – to speak for that land. The other Aboriginal people from that area have association with the land but do not have an acknowledged right to speak for that country – in the top end these people are often known as country-men.

Ahhh, that explains it. Thanks Clown Killer.

Sounds a bit like feudalism.

The idea that land ownership is incompatible with the spiritual and secular lives of Aboriginal people is a bit of a furphy. In many instances traditional rights to land will rest with an individual or small group of people within a specific community – in a formal sence these people are the ‘traditional owners’ of that land and have a right – recognised by the rest of the Aboriginal community – to speak for that land. The other Aboriginal people from that area have association with the land but do not have an acknowledged right to speak for that country – in the top end these people are often known as country-men.

I already did. That’s my Berlina in the picture.

To all sides of this debate, a suggestion:
Go down to Parkes. Go meet some of the Tent Embassy people.
Ask them what the embassy is there for. Ask them for their perspective.
All may learn something.

I agree

Why can aboriginal issues never be discussed without the self-appointed defenders of their culture assuming they have the high moral ground?
Why is it OK to blame an entire ‘culture’ (whites) for a situation yet considered racist to apportion some responsibility to another culture?

I think most people recognize that the arrival of the white man has been an ongoing tragedy for black people. But good intentions, court decisions, treaties and huge amounts of money have failed to improve the lot of many indigenous people.

IMO this terrible situation will continue while any debate or decision is stymied in name calling, blame shifting and knee-jerk ideological positions.

It continues not because of racism, lack of resources or will. It continues because it is a complex issue which cannot be solved simply by applying more money or finding someone to blame.

sepi said :

Duke it is fine to say ‘self determination and opportunity is the way forward’.

Especially if you have some ideas as to how to provide said ‘opportunities’.

Such as education, and health access.

Well, Sepi, my idea for healing the cultural rifts in our society begins with a big black magic wand! That’s one more idea than you’ve presented.

Oh and all Canberrans have access to health care and arguably Australia’s best learning institutions, yet many of us are still fat and ignorant……which is why I put that ‘self-determination’ bit in there.

I think it’s kinda sad that when we try to have a discussion about emotive issues that people immediately resort to name calling, especially if an opinion that differs to theirs is aired.

I think that both ‘sides’ have work to do if we’re going to help Aboriginal people generally contribute to and enjoy the benefits Australian society has to offer.

Mate, I’m just saying that compo claims will never sort out any problems. I mean it in the same way as saying “sorry” won’t change anything either. You tell me, what has it changed? Maybe changed Kevvies approval rating by a couple of points but so did his appearances on Kerri-Anne. What is your argument? I didn’t bring up the compo, I was simply replying to the posts previous to mine which mentioned it. Have a read before trying to critisise my posts from now on.

Anyway, I’m outta here because I got bigger fish to fry (and beer to drink). Mmmmm beer battered fish.

Duke said :

H1NGO – many will agree that self-determination coupled with opportunity is the only way for an individual (or race) to move forward – but for heavens sake, just don’t say it out loud 😉

The question you should be asking is how does our society meld an ancient culture with a modern one? Once we solve that little dilemma we can all live happily ever after.

Property rights.

…which brings me to my original question actually. Hmmm damn complex reality.

sepi said :

PB – as I mentioned earlier, modern australia brought most of the health issues – diabetes via sugar, introduced diseases such as TB, measles etc. And of course those great health benefits – alcohol and tobacco.

Modern australia also provides cures for TB (it’s vertually eradicated), measles (we have a vaccine these days), and cures and treatments for more, far more, illnesses and diseases than we introduced.

I’m not saying that our Aboriginal cousins do not have it hard. They do.

But alcohol and tobacco are life choices, as are sugary foods.

Duke it is fine to say ‘self determination and opportunity is the way forward’.

Especially if you have some ideas as to how to provide said ‘opportunities’.

Such as education, and health access.

“The children!! Why won’t anybody think of the children?!?!!
Hate to break it to you, but you don’t build a society by sitting on your hands and expecting payouts”

Your tough guy attitude and shocking ignorance represent so much that’s wrong with the world today. It is you, sir, that is the douche bag with bitch tits.

dexi said :

A lot of Australians fail to see that this is and always has been Aboriginal land. A lot of Australians have helped themselves to the land. Unfortunately you fail to see this.

One thing I never understand is how people reconcile comments like the above with the concept that Aborigines don’t believe in owning the land. It seems logically inconsistent.

Don’t get me wrong, whether this land was stolen, what sort of compensation is just, and through how many generations one can maintain a claim (considering the history of invasion, immigration, and empire of our world), is a really interesting and challenging issue from a libertarian perspective. However, I find double dipping line to be distasteful.

Am I wrong about aboriginal custom? Has my schooling let me down?

Anyway back on topic, the Little Children are Sacred report makes for some pretty depressing reading. I think the NT intervention has some quite justified aspects and some disturbing aspects. It’s a Government program so that is to be expected.

I think the aboriginal people should strive to prevent the destruction of their culture (within the non aggression axiom), and bring voice to the poor living standards of many aborigines. The proposed solutions to those problems made at this protest, I may disagree with though, however it’s an issue that needs to be addressed.

H1NGO – many will agree that self-determination coupled with opportunity is the only way for an individual (or race) to move forward – but for heavens sake, just don’t say it out loud 😉

The question you should be asking is how does our society meld an ancient culture with a modern one? Once we solve that little dilemma we can all live happily ever after.

PB – as I mentioned earlier, modern australia brought most of the health issues – diabetes via sugar, introduced diseases such as TB, measles etc. And of course those great health benefits – alcohol and tobacco.

🙂 – yeah – but better than “Aboriginal and/or Torres Strait Islander” or whatever the PC version was a few years ago.

And I think Indigenous is safer, as it can’t be shortened in offensive ways, even when just trying to save on time/typing. Although I have seen ‘Abl’ used as a shorthand version.

Honestly, H1NGO, what do you expect?

Most of your recent posts have been about aborigines ‘sitting around with their hands out for a payout’ and ‘compo’.

What am I supposed to think?

Is anyone else sick of the word “Indigenous”?

I can say that cos I’m a blackfella.

I never said that douche bag. Once again refer to Danman’s post. Thats the problem with arguments like this, you always end up twisting some little bitch’s tit.

sepi said :

perhaps they are still concerned about living in 3rd world conditions with a corresponding third world health standards and life expectancy.

But without the modern Australian, they would not have access to first world facilities, and not get the chance to obtain good healthcare and life expectancy.

Oh for gods sake.

All sepi said was that Aborigines have the same right as white people to use the legal system.

And then you start banging on about compo every second post.

Have you even met an aborigine or do you just get all your information from ‘A Current Affair’.

I give up: yes H1NGO, all the aborigines want to do is get compo and drink beer and suck up YOUR TAX DOLLARS and they’ve got it so good they’re just lazy blah blah blah.

Are you happy?

Who mentioned compo claims?

You’re the only one in this thread that’s done that.

All I’ve seen from Danman and you are claims that Aborigines should suck it up, accept the bulldozing of their culture without complaint, and attempt to act as much like conformist white people as possible.

To Quote Sepi

In which case they have every right to protest, and sue for compo in the courts.

Hate to break it to you, but you don’t build a society by sitting on your hands and expecting payouts.

H1NG0 said :

The children!! Why won’t anybody think of the children?!?!!

Doesn’t even make sense – nobody mentioned children. You’re floundering now and resorting to cliches.

Booooring.

H1NG0 said :

Sepi, I suggest you read Danman’s post. It sums it up pretty well. However I’m not your hero Kevvie, I don’t believe saying sorry was the solution to these problems. If you think compo claims will be the solution, then thats your prerogative.

Who mentioned compo claims?

You’re the only one in this thread that’s done that.

All I’ve seen from Danman and you are claims that Aborigines should suck it up, accept the bulldozing of their culture without complaint, and attempt to act as much like conformist white people as possible.

The children!! Why won’t anybody think of the children?!?!!

Why didn’t I think of that – anyone who is lacking in opportunities, role models, education and good health should just pull themselves up by the bootstraps and get on with it.

Simple.

All the world’s problems are solved.

Danman,
Ever considered that your/modern society’s idea of success and someone elses can be completely different things? And would you hang a turd on Buddist Monks and their culture the same way you do Aboriginal culture?
Seriously, you’ve got one of/the oldest cultures in the world up against one of/the youngest. Show some respect please!

Flog, flog, flog sure beats flap, flap, flap. 🙂

Sepi, I suggest you read Danman’s post. It sums it up pretty well. However I’m not your hero Kevvie, I don’t believe saying sorry was the solution to these problems. If you think compo claims will be the solution, then thats your prerogative.

HIngo what do you want?

Would you like indigenous people to go back to their previous hunter-gatherer existence?

In which case which large area of land will be give them – needs to still contain enough animals/plants/water to live on.

Or would you like them to be just like us?

In which case they have every right to protest, and sue for compo in the courts.

Is that an echo or the sound of a dead horse being flogged?

Any “intervention” that has to set aside the Racial Discrimination Act in order to be implemented is self-evidently dodgy.

You’re all a bunch of racist pricks. Especially you Dexi.

Danman now your doing it. Denying aboriginal culture exists today. Its not symbolism, its belief. Aboriginal culture alive and well on your very doorstep.

So we just want to bulldoze it. How very symbolic.

Just to prove that we don’t disagree ALL the time…I second everything sepi said in her last post. The “intervention” was a great political stunt, but did/does little to actually help the people.

& no, I don’t know what the answer is.

Well said Danman, thats a bloody good post.

Not history, present day.

“What makes you think I’m a white fella? ”
No real reason, you just sound like a white fella.

Ill have to look up cracker ass cracker. Yesterday I was an ignorant. Its hard to keep up.

The fire at parliament house offers a traditional meeting place for discussion and ceremony.

Maybe traditionally, but it lost its symbolism a long time ago.

There are plenty of sucessful indigneous Australians, both in the public eye, and those who just get head down and bum up and make something of themselves, trying not to cry poor me and asking for hand out, all the while cringing when so called representitives of their culture stick their neck out and claim that they represent their culture.

Thanks for the history lesson Dexi. What makes you think I’m a white fella? You don’t see me calling you a cracker ass cracker do you? Sucks to have the racism card pulled on you eh?

While I’m at it, I’ll take your children as well. Have fun at the mission.

seekay said :

For the life of me I still cannot believe that the last government were too gutless to flatten the tent embassy.

How about I get some mates and come around and flatten your house.

Sure, it might have been yours, but that was ages ago, and it doesn’t matter in my legal system. You were living in primitive conditions anyway.

H1NGO the white fella. Don’t want to talk about it. Take what I tell ya or bugger off. End of story.

Maybe you might to like to know what the fire at old parliament house is about. Communication. Its about talking as much as protesting. (If you really want to know go there and ask)

When you go on to another tribe’s land you don’t just walk up to their camp to chat. You find a spot near by and make a fire. They then come to you and talk. You settle your differences around the fire. The fire at parliament house offers a traditional meeting place for discussion and ceremony.

It’ll get flattened when we give the land back to the traditional owners of this land, the Dinosaurs. Hows that for ultra P.C?

For the life of me I still cannot believe that the last government were too gutless to flatten the tent embassy.

dexi said :

You a good white fella H1NGO. Land for consideration.

Damn right. I’m the best, just ask my mum.

H1NG0 said :

…..Their conditions and health are never going to improve unless they take some reposibility for helping themselves……..

You wash your mouth out and stop talking sense right now – the lefties won’t like it!

Aborigines don’t own the land. They belong to it. It’s like their mother. See those rocks? Been standing there for 600 million years. Still be there when you and I are gone. So arguing over who owns them is like two fleas arguing over who owns the dog they live on.

H1NG0 said :

The NT intervention is one of them. Unfortunately, a lot of Aboriginal people fail too see this.

Ah great attitude. “Don’t you dare complain, we’re doing this for your own good.”

I seem to remember the same thing being said about the Stolen Generations too.

better health services and education is the type of thing Indigenous leaders are asking for.

the intervention did not provide these.

It provided a single health check for each child, to try to find evidence of sexual abuse, with no resources for follow up treatment if anything was discovered.

Doctors on the ground suggested that the money spent on these pointless ‘abuse checks’ would have paid for doubling the existing health services, instead of this one headline grabbing effort.

Health services may be free, but are not actually available in many remote communities.

“Aboriginals lived in poor conditions before we arrived” – they had no medicos, but they had a far healthier lifestyle without junk food, alcohol and introduced diseases. They also had their own traditional lands to roam.

If you want them to assimilate, and do things our way, then you can’t complain when they enter into political protests and launch legal cases.

Being called on to provide evidence to back claims is rough, isn’t it mate?

You a good white fella H1NGO. Land for consideration.

Forget it mate, I’m not entering into this bleeding heart crap. There are several ways to improve things. Better health services and education systems are just a couple. Giving back land and providing cash compensation for past history is not the way to move forward. That is my opinion, take it or leave it. Over and out.

H1ngo
So it’s blame the victim time?
Where is your evidence to suggest the health conditions are self-inflicted?

If you give up your land Dexi, I’ll consider it.

Thats your opinion Sepi, unless you have proof otherwise of course. Their conditions and health are never going to improve unless they take some reposibility for helping themselves. Although they get free health services, do you think that means they will take advantage of those services? Not always. A lot of it has to do with education. Aboriginals lived in poor conditions well before white man arrived.

A lot of Australians fail to see that this is and always has been Aboriginal land. A lot of Australians have helped themselves to the land. Unfortunately you fail to see this.

H1ngo,
If you believe the Intervention has been beneficial to the NT aboriginals, I’d suggest speaking to some of them. Any government action that requires the suspension of the racial discrimination act is questionable, at best.

perhaps they are still concerned about living in 3rd world conditions with a corresponding third world health standards and life expectancy.

the intervention was aimed at showing white australia that something was being done, not at actually tackling the hard issues.

looks like it worked.

Sure, they have had a rough trot in the past, I’m sure most people agree, but I also think Australia has done a lot to help the Aboriginal people in recent years. The NT intervention is one of them. Unfortunately, a lot of Aboriginal people fail too see this.

PreciousLilywhite said :

It just amazes me that ‘Australians’ still can’t see why indigenous people might be just a little upset at the moment. ‘Sorry’ Day aside, their situation is a bad as ever.

Maybe not as bad as ever, but I agree in spirit. They have not only the right to protest but also plenty of reasons.

Waste of time anyway – Kevin747 will probably be overseas again discussing how to make the perfect pavlova with the UN on Feb 3rd.

Nice Calais. Way too classy for that setting.

> Sexism more up your alley?

Where’d that come from sepi? I don’t stand for sexism either I’m afraid.

It just amazes me that ‘Australians’ still can’t see why indigenous people might be just a little upset at the moment. ‘Sorry’ Day aside, their situation is a bad as ever.

Wheels go roll about. People go walk about.

It would be a bunch of nameless white yobs thinking they are wrecking a tent embassy car that stole the wheels.

Sexism more up your alley?

> The owner of the grey Commodore is in for a rude shock when he returns to discover his wheels have gone walkabout.

johnboy? I suspect you don’t want to put up with such blatantly racist comments.

If you laughed at that you are a bad person. I’m going to hell.

The owner of the grey Commodore is in for a rude shock when he returns to discover his wheels have gone walkabout.

Same day as the Climate Change protest.

Tuesday, February 3, 2009
8:00am – 12:00pm
Lawn in front of Parliament House, Canberra, Australia
Contact InfoEmail:
info@climatesummit.org.au
http://www.climatesummit.org.au/

I dunno – if election promises haven’t eventuated I think a bit of a protest is fair enough.

Sorry

Relevance Deprivation Syndrome?