Should something be done about traded Nazi gear in Canberra?

The tyranny of the majority remains a tyranny.

Deadmandrinking said :

No innocents should have to die, ever.

The point is to separate historical fascination and subscription to archaic beliefs.

Yes, thanks deadmandrinking, I was just making the point to separate it. I don’t condone nor deny the horrors that Nazi Germany had imposed on Jews. But johnboy, you clearly have a very subjective view about anything to do with this topic and it has obviously clouded your judgement on the issue. That is your choice and I respect that. But if you were objective you would clearly be able to separate ‘historical fascination’ from any alleged or potential misuse and abuse of the memorabilia and that misuse and abuse leading to offending Jews et al. Being objective would allow you to consider that selling such memorabilia, especially at an antique fair, is not ever actually intended to do anything of the kind.

My analogies (pertaining to religion and ‘archaic beliefs’) were extreme and left field but constructed deliberately so as to demonstrate that you cannot simply isolate one view of potentially offending paraphernalia –Nazi memorabilia in this case. Let us be reasonable, take a step back and look at the bigger picture. Also, may I suggest you look at the votes and see the position of the majority of Canberra.

That’s not the point Johnboy. No innocents should have to die, ever.

The point is to separate historical fascination and subscription to archaic beliefs.

If you honestly think there’s an equivalence in any of those cases I feel very sorry for you.

johnboy, I don’t apologise about anything that was not my own doing. You must have confused some of my words. Do you read the Bible? If so you must be an apologist for killing ‘witches’ in the Spanish Inquisition. And tom-tom sums up my views perfectly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanjing_Massacre is probably a better link, but I mentioned it as a place that some people would prefer to be forgotten, to the point it gets either no mention in terms of any significance, or gets glossed over entirely.
(as covered here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_history_textbook_controversies#Junior_high_school_history_textbook.2C_2005)

300,000 civilian deaths in a six week period, at the hands of the military is not something that should be glossed over, especially not in State-approved textbooks, and reeks of nationalist revisionism.

perhaps ….no worse than any other piece of historical nastiness…. might be to far, however there are plenty that were so bad as to be incomparable without statistical analysis of body counts, which would be a pretty harsh way of looking at it.

As someone mentioned earlier in the thread, I’m glad I didn’t live in Nanking in the late thirties.

i think this discussion has drifted somewhat.

first of all i dont think the act of collecting nazi memorabillia makes you a nazi sympathiser any more than collecting stamps makes you a postman. that particular judgement should come more from the actions and opinions of the collector than anything else. collecting nazi memorabillia because you are a ww2 buff and like collecting miltiary history is quite a different thing to collecting the memorabillia because you agree with ideology behind it and want to glorify it.

while i certainly wouldn’t buy any of it i think banning the sale of the stuff would be a mistake because, in my opinion, the worst thing we could do is forget what the nazi’s were and what they did and i think sweeping this stuff under the carpet where we dont have to see it and acknowledge it is just one step along that road.

I think it’s putting it in historical perspective, personally. In no way does it justify what happened if somebody else did it too.

What it highlights is how we happily make films and celebrate the horrors committed by older regimes, yet we seem to want to hunt down any memory of a more recent horrific regime.

It’s essential that we separate historical fascination and support for the kind of thinking that led to the holocaust, or we’d be simply ostracizing anyone we think may be a Nazi instead of actually combating the ideology.

#97

To suggest the nazis were no worse than any other piece of historical nastiness is quite the apology for them in my personal opinion.

At what point did youami apologize for the Nazi’s, Johnboy?

At what point did anyone apologise for them here?

I don’t think they should ban things like this for the same reason I don’t agree with Rudd’s Chinese inspired internet censorship plan.

I seem to recall there’s a few swastikas around Old Pariament House – let’s burn it to the ground ;-D

Well it’s good to know nazi apologists are so open minded about the bible.

oh yes another thing, I don’t intend to boycott a book store just because it sells the Bible… I just avoid buying it!

I personally don’t this offensive and in fact I am completely indifferent. The Nazi gear is simply gear, it doesn’t do anything on its own. Also the Swastika has been around a lot longer than the Nazis. Should we legislate and limit sales on witchcraft memorabilia? Spanish Inquisition memorabilia? Scientology memorabilia? What about the Bible? The Koran? Just because it might incite offence or isn’t in line with your own ideals? I am sure all these things I mentioned could be bought and sold at an antique fair or any fair for that matter. People have the ‘de facto’ right to their own beliefs and customs in purchasing trinket and other memorabilia no matter how ridiculous they may appear, of course just so long as they are legal. Also, why wouldn’t a historian want to purchase such gear as opposed to a fascist? Or a collector of flags perhaps? We may be stereotyping the buyers and the sellers.

J/B, I understand your argument about not banning the Nazi relics, but personally boycotting the stores that sell it and not liking people because of it, but I really think you’re being way too judgmental.

The fact is a lot of people are interested in that era in general. Nazi memorabilia is part of that era. There’s a long, long stretch between WW2 relics and actually being a Nazi. The latter you can usually identify by their anti-ethnic rants, after which I personally stop listening.

I think banning the sale and possession of Nazi gear would be delightfully ironic

Bingo.

You’ll find much of the german military gear of the era is not actually emblazoned with swastikas.

I like sleaz724 argument.
The nazi did make a huge contribution to the design of modern day military equipment. That makes some memorabilia collectable. It also gives it a place in our modern world.

Its existence gives us a talking point that still reflects some modern day conflicts.

Danman: Closer to home, check out the foyer of Prahran Town Hall sometime.

Fanta was created as a way of keeping the German Coca-Cola bottling plants producing during America’s export trade embargo on Nazi Germany.
(So no Coca-Cola syrup)

The Volkswagen was only created as a Hitler-requested variation on the already existing Porshe type-12 to make it more affordable.
So neither are actually Nazi-designed, just Nazi-era created products.

Is Fanta the choice of a new Aryan Generation or summin ?

Some of the nazi memorabilia collectors may be part of this organisation;

http://www.shof.msrcsites.co.uk/confused.jpg

But possibly not.

Depends, does she also only drink Fanta?

~zomg, I just thought of something. Mrs Caulfield drives a Volkswagen. VW was pretty much started by Hitler. Am I married to a Nazi? What should I do?

My grandmother spent a number of years bombing Nazis…

Your grandmother was hardcore! Granny, do you have any old war stories?

When I was in India visiting a buddhist temple that predated the nazi party, I saw that they heavily used the swastika extensively, both symbolically and decoratively.

I was saddened that I immediately thought of the nazis who hijacked the symbolism, and not the intended beauty of such symbol.

I am extremely sorry for my comment. It was made innocently if thoughtlessly, but certainly without malice or disrespect. I very much regret using real people in the example I gave. I would hope that most people would understand what I was trying to say, and that I was not intending to be hurtful.

P1, I recall 20 plus years ago, when the hippies would protest at Cancon because they considered the fat nerds warmongers, when it was held at Bruce CIT. Mine Gawd, is that Canberra Uni now?

People fear what they do not understand.
This case is just more politically correct crazies trying to subdue the world with their ignorance.

Geez where were you protesting at Cancon then?

I might have, but only ever heard of its existence through browsing photos tagged “Canberra” on flickr.

It truly is a shame that the swastika is now so heavily stigmatised in the western world due to Hitler’s twisted appropriation of it in recent times.

*sigh*

I’m saying that a copy of Mein Kampf is a legitimate intellectual exercise, whereas building a shrine to the nazi memory just makes you a facist.

johnboy said :

…to have a clear understanding of the horrors of totalitarianism in the 20th century.
It’s not the same thing as a copy of Mein Kampf on the bookshelf.

Sorry Jb, _I_ have a copy (translated) of Mein Kampf on my bookshelf.
It, like a few other books on nearby shelves, in the mind of a certain kind of reader, justified deaths.
What would you have me do, get all of them down, throw them on a fire, and invite a few friends around to cheer?
Or maybe just make it illegal to trade, lend, own a copy of, or talk about them, so I can put them in a safe place somewhere for a generation or so, until it becomes a pleasantly overlooked footnote?
(Nobody mention Nanking?)

I say no, they are _just books_.
Symbolic and inspirational to some people and deeply offensive to others, sure, but the lesson of Mein Kampf in contrast to the others was that the central man and his followers had more influence in person and at the time, and were both a part of and a product of the times that let then happen.

And back on topic, I support his right to sell authentic period antiques of German provenence to the market, at whatever price the market allows.
Afterall, its not the _sellers_ of Nazi collectibles we should be concerned about.
And besides, selling it in such a way that lets the public know the price also works as a kind of mechanism of measuring the relevant public sentiment.
So long as the supply is stable or decreasing:
Prices lowering over time = lessening demand
Prices remaining stable or increasing at a rate roughly equal to decreasing pool of product = stable demand
Prices increasing beyond what would be expected as the stock pool decreases = increased demand.

PsydFX said :

jakez said :

Hang on, to be fair johnboy clearly said above that he didn’t believe that the Government should get involved.

He also said that the War Memorial (awm.gov.au) should be the only place that Nazi Memorabilia be dispalyed.

Once again you make a fool of yourself mis-stating my argument.

I don’t say you can’t run your own “museum”.

I say that if you do I will think less of you.

Rubbish talk here. Next you sensitive types will be banning teen boys researching and building WWII German tanks and planes, because it might make them Nazis.

Geez where were you protesting at Cancon then?

This seems like a micro-metaphor to the issue of Nazi Germany in Germany. Although in Germany many more things are verboten (banned).

Personally, as someone who loves modern history I relish such relics. However it’s enough for me to see them behind a glass case in a museum. I believe that most pieces belong in such places so that the public at large can see them.

The truth is, is that all types of idiots like to associate themselves with Nazi Germany e.g. Russians proudly waving a Swatstika flag despite the fact that Hitler always considered Russia as Germany’s ‘Lebensraum’ or ‘living space’ and all Russians were simply untermenschen (sub-human) meant to work as slaves for the Third Reich. In that sense, to me at least Nazi Germany Memorabilia only really relates to the period 1929-1945. In relation to the ban in Germany today, most neo-nazis use the number 88 (achtundachtzig sounds like hail Hitler), voluntary baldness, their own brand of clothing Tor Steiner, Lonsdale clothing and tattoos that resemble SS to show their err… stupidity. Basically, not using a Swatstika (since displaying it will automatically land you in prison in Germany).

Selling Iron Crosses (used in the German Luftwaffe today and since WWI so technically not a Nazi thing) or Nazi-Eagle pins is like crumbs when compared to the many other symbols modern Neo-Nazis use. People will always gravitate towards symbols. Christians and the Cross/Fish, Hipsters and Converse/Pipe Jeans, Wiggas and baggy jeans, Yuppies and Hugo Boss… Neo-Nazis don’t need a Swatstika anymore, they’ve got plenty others to choose from. The selling of these items does not promote Nazism/racism, people themselves choose their way of thinking. Hence, no issue in the sale/trade of Nazi era relics.

Sleaz274 said :

And let’s not fool ourselves into thinking that the Nazis were the only people who killed millions, Rwanda, Serbia, Turkey, Russia all have blood on their hands. This obsession with Nazism as the grand evil befuddles me somewhat Rwandan Hutus managed to kill far more quickly and savagely with machetes than the Nazis ever accomplished with gas chambers.

And Sierra Leone, Darfur, Guatemala, Chile, Armenia, Cambodia, and even today, as we write, the Congo … I’m always annoyed by the insistence that the Jewish holocaust was “the” Holocaust. It was, alas, “a” holocaust.

mutley said :

I have a 5 orangutang teak sideboard at home.

Well Mutley if it was produced in the last 10 years then I shall have to hate you!

I reckon it all depends on what you’re buying. Medals, equipment, weapons etc. are fine. If you buying a flag to hang in your house, maybe not.

Also what DMD said spot on. The other amazing weapon I’ve held was a flintlock musket from the battle of Waterloo. I guess that makes me a vile imperial colonialist who enslaved the blacks.

It’s history people plain and simple and also one of the most interesting times in the last 100 years. Our entire globe from 1933 has been shaped by the very influence the Nazis left. Touching or owning a piece of that history won’t give you Nazi cooties and make you want to run around gassing your fellow man.

One of the most interesting and amazing pieces of history I’ve held was a Wehrmacht K98 Mauser that had been produced just before 1939 and used extensively while in service with the Wehrmacht (you can tell by the unit insignia and armourers markings) it was then smuggled after the war by the Jews into Palenstine (soon to be Israel) and the Nazi Eagle ground off the chamber/barrel and replaced with a Star of David and then used by Jewish settlers to kill the Arabs and drive them from the borders of Israel. It is an amazing weapon and if it could tell a story it would fill many volumes.

My point is two fold a) it’s history and amazing that items and artifacts can hold so many stories and information and knowledge for us of bygone eras b) even the Jews collected Nazi equipment for their own purposes.

And let’s not fool ourselves into thinking that the Nazis were the only people who killed millions, Rwanda, Serbia, Turkey, Russia all have blood on their hands. This obsession with Nazism as the grand evil befuddles me somewhat Rwandan Hutus managed to kill far more quickly and savagely with machetes than the Nazis ever accomplished with gas chambers.

Anyway don’t get me started… well except for this bit. The comment about Martin Bryant by the way was vile.

The docos on SBS over the last three weeks have started with a 1hr doco on Nuremberg Trials (week 1 – Speer, Week 2 – Goring, last sunday – Hess). Following the doco, they had a 2hr docu-drama about Hitler and Speer. The first week (timed to coincide with the Tom Cruise “Valkyrie” being released), they showed the German film of the same title/story. It has been a really interesting season of excellent documentaries… I think the NAZI docos ended with Sunday’s though… interesting to see what the next series they show will be, and how it ties in with the next big movie out.

Quick… someone call Prince Harry!

I have a 5 orangutang teak sideboard at home.

I take far more offence at seeing, for example, furniture, flooring or decking made from recently-plundered Papuan rainforest timbers in someone’s house, than some old WWII item.

I think people are taking this way, way, way too far out of proportion.

First, JB, regardless of your experience, I think it’s still a massive generalization. There’s a good range of reasons why anyone would want to own this stuff.

The Nazi Regime in Germany happened. It’s a part of history. It changed the destinies for a range of different people and it’s ramifications are still felt today. It’s no wonder people would have interest. Personally, I find Hitler’s inspiration in mythology and his secret missions to find relics fascinating. It does not mean I agree with what he did.

The key is to look at the history objectively. I don’t personally support the idea of throwing christians to the lions and slavery, but Ancient Rome fascinates me. I don’t like the idea of a society where 97% of the population are bound in serfdom, but Medieval England fascinates me. If I could get my hands on artifacts from those times, I’d be stoked.

It’s important to remember big events and periods in history. They help us understand where we are today. Also, remembering who Hitler was and the horrors he committed by his influence allows us to be wary of future attempts to do such. Millions of Jewish graves are enough to tell us we should be wary.

So, no, it doesn’t bother me that people are buying this stuff. People are fascinated by history. Owning a part of history is even more fascinating.

It’s appalling bad taste, not to mention insensitive to families who have known suffering under the Nazis. Profiting or taking pleasure from the sale or ownership of items which symbolise an horrific period in World history says a lot about those who take part.

Having said that, though, I think banning the sale would only drive it underground. Let’s be able to see which businesses and citizens take part in these sales so anyone who objects can take their business elsewhere.

JB @ #27:

My grandmother spent a number of years bombing Nazis, when she died she left me a 1934 copy of Mein Kampf which is proudly kept within the family not as a show of support, but as a piece of literary history and to remind us all how abhorrent those times were.

While we all need to be (I don’t think empathetic if correct here) conscious of the shitty things that went on from ’39 to ’45, I think Australia is sensible to realise that Nazis were (past tense) dickheads and Nazis are (present tense) f***ing dickheads. However, censorship of history? No thankyou.

These sort of sales have been going on since the war ended. Some buy it as collectors items , some buy them as novelties . But you will find that the market for these types of items are very very small indeed. That’s also assuming they’re the real thing. What’s the difference to buying this as to buying Japanese war memorabilia from WW2? They were just as bad as the Nazi’s to other races of the world

Mike Crowther said :

I think it is less the item, and more the idea/purpose for which it is used which is the problem.

+1.

I have a few friends who collect military memorabilia. Once is about 40 and collects stuff as it reminds him of his father who was in the Luftwaffe. He’s also into researching German military history/materiel and has presented the AWM with a few of his works that he has undertaken in his spare time. The AWM has been extremely grateful to him for this.

My other friend is a German antique dealer who is well into his ’70’s. He lives in Berlin. Interestingly, while he collects relics from almost al wars, the only war he doesn’t collect from is WWII. His father dissappeared on the Western front and it’s too confronting even for him.

Long story short – everybody who collects this stuff has their own reasons for doing so. The trick is to make sure those who seek to relive any perceived glory associated with ‘Nazi’ memorabilia are watched very closely.

Interestingly, I recall hearing that there have been at least two Australian ex-servicemen who have been authorised to wear their Iron Crosses (gained while serving in the Hitler Youth) with their Australian service medals. That would be a rack of medals sought after by many collectors.

jakez said :

Hang on, to be fair johnboy clearly said above that he didn’t believe that the Government should get involved.

He also said that the War Memorial (awm.gov.au) should be the only place that Nazi Memorabilia be dispalyed.

I have a framed photo which features a nazi flag. I keep it proudly on display in my home. Some years ago a Jewish guest took EXTREME objection to it and let me know it in no uncertain terms. When I pointed out that the photo was my father and his section posing with a German tank that they had killed in North Africa, the photo suddenly became ‘ok’ again.

I think it is less the item, and more the idea/purpose for which it is used which is the problem.

http://www.catsthatlooklikehitler.com/

Roadrage77 said :

PBO said :

I personally think that this issue has been blown out of hand. I myself like to collect old Soviet era stuff, Does that make me a communist? I also collect old Nepalese ritual bone bits and pieces, does that make me a necrophile?

You must be a real hit at parties.

I usually am until I bring out the Nepalese human skull ashtray (totally weird but facinating at the same time, very collectable) That i bought at Gorman house markets.

But seriously, I would have to say that all that Mrs Shroot has achieved by informing the general populus that there is Nazi themed items is boost sales at the Fyshwick antiques store.

Duke said :

Collecting is often just about owning a piece of history, it’s not about following a particular ideology.

On the other hand, the Rebellious Stripes (Sons of Liberty) flag and the Eureka flag that hang in my room are absolutely about following a particular ideology.

Holden Caulfield said :

Oh, FWIW, in case people weren’t aware there’s a series of Nazi docos running on SBS on Sunday nights. I saw the first round, but missed last weekend’s. They’re pretty interesting.

There is a Nazi documentary on at least one channel at least once a week! People can’t get enough of it. These tv shows and the sale of Nazi memorabilia and books just reflect the popularity of the subject matter.

Collecting is often just about owning a piece of history, it’s not about following a particular ideology.

Skidd Marx said :

I don’t know any Nazi’s personally but in the movies they always come across as complete pricks with little-to-no sense of humour. I’m sure there are some nice ones, but you just don’t hear about them.

You’ll have to go and see “Valkyrie” then: Tom Cruise plays a good Nazi in that movie! 🙂

johnboy said :

I’m not saying it shouldn’t be displayed in museums.

I’m saying that in my experience the people who “collect” it are uniformly vile and I don’t want to be associated with them in any way.

“Uniformly vile” – geddit?

PBO said :

I personally think that this issue has been blown out of hand. I myself like to collect old Soviet era stuff, Does that make me a communist? I also collect old Nepalese ritual bone bits and pieces, does that make me a necrophile?

You must be a real hit at parties.

PsydFX said :

johnboy said :

You seem to be reversing my argument.

I’m saying we do need the War Memorial, it is the right place for this stuff and the pool room of a closet racist is, well, at best a warning to his guests.

So you are saying that the Government should have the right to regulate the private ownership of Nazi collectables, and any resistance to this is indicative to an individuals allegiance to Nazi ideals?

Hang on, to be fair johnboy clearly said above that he didn’t believe that the Government should get involved.

I don’t know any Nazi’s personally but in the movies they always come across as complete pricks with little-to-no sense of humour. I’m sure there are some nice ones, but you just don’t hear about them.

I personally think that this issue has been blown out of hand. I myself like to collect old Soviet era stuff, Does that make me a communist? I also collect old Nepalese ritual bone bits and pieces, does that make me a necrophile?

Just because someone collects things of a odd nature is no reason to immediatly label them. However, there are some folk who collect for other reasons but we cannot use having a collection as a basis for judging someones beliefs. I also have an SS Officers dress dagger that i bought from a friend of mine who is Jewish, how would i be labelled now?

I think nazi’ism is essentially evil, but I also think if someone wishes to collect war memorabilia its their call.

My grandfather was a WW2 vet – died at the age of 90 with a rollie in his hand – when the old man and his brothers cleand up his house they found, among other vast war memorabilia collections, a Luger, and various other WW2 nazi “souveneirs” (sp?)

To this man, collecting memorabilia from his time in the war was not perpetuating nazi-ism, but perhaps a way he could remember both the evils, and poignancy of war and life long bonds with the other men he was on the front with.

To that end, I find JB’s point I’m saying that in my experience the people who “collect” it are uniformly vile and I don’t want to be associated with them in any way. invalid.

Thats not to say that everyone whpo collects memorabilia sane. Surely roper stomper style memorabilia collection indicates a disturbing behaviourial pattern and belief system.

I also have a friend in picton who collects WW2/cold war era gas masks – purely because they are cool. She is 100% sane 🙂

johnboy said :

You seem to be reversing my argument.

I’m saying we do need the War Memorial, it is the right place for this stuff and the pool room of a closet racist is, well, at best a warning to his guests.

So you are saying that the Government should have the right to regulate the private ownership of Nazi collectables, and any resistance to this is indicative to an individuals allegiance to Nazi ideals?

sorry, my posts keep losing their quotes; that was responding to JB #39

Reply

I’m talking about the average Wehrmacht soldier here…

I am in agreement with you on this, most of the young men were doing what their country asked of them, and ironically, many probably knew less about the holocaust then much of the civilian population.

Oh, FWIW, in case people weren’t aware there’s a series of Nazi docos running on SBS on Sunday nights. I saw the first round, but missed last weekend’s. They’re pretty interesting.

PsydFX said :

johnboy said :

I’m pretty sure you don’t need a nazi flag on the wall and a knife in the trophy cabinet to have a clear understanding of the horrors of totalitarianism in the 20th century.

I guess we don’t need the War Memorial then, or maybe we should keep the War Memorial and just remove all the desensitizing, uprising inspiring Nazi items.

You seem to be reversing my argument.

I’m saying we do need the War Memorial, it is the right place for this stuff and the pool room of a closet racist is, well, at best a warning to his guests.

What if it was allied war memorabilia ?

I think one could say confidently that there is a vast difference between nazi memorabilia and allied.

Any what if, like most collectors that have war memorabilia, they have collectibles from both the Allied and the Axis powers?

p1 said :

…he thinks the Wehrmacht were one of the best fighting forces in the war….he thinks the Nazis were a bunch of idiots….

They started the war because of the NAZI leader ship, then they lost it because of the NAZI leadership.

I’m talking about the average Wehrmacht soldier here – not their weak senior leaders who were so obsessed with restoring German pride lost after WWI that they didn’t care who they sided with to acheive this and paid no thought to how much it might cost in lives lost.

…he thinks the Wehrmacht were one of the best fighting forces in the war….he thinks the Nazis were a bunch of idiots….

They started the war because of the NAZI leader ship, then they lost it because of the NAZI leadership.

Mr Evil said :

I’m more worried about the ‘Nazis’ who think it’s appropriate to wear the Australian flag as a symbol of nationalism (e.g. Pauline Hanson, redneck surfers from Cronulla, etc), rather than some people who might be interested in buying some WWII German fakes.

A friend of mine is very interested in WWII German Wehrmacht memorabilia and history – but only because he thinks the Wehrmacht were one of the best fighting forces in the war – generally very well disciplined and never gave any ground up too easily. That being said, he thinks the Nazis were a bunch of idiots that weren’t worth feeding.

Best that you avoid that friend, or at very least tell him to be carefall, as it is likely that he will become de-sensitised, which will lead on to him legitimising the Nazi regime.

What if it was allied war memorabilia ?

I think that if something is a genuine relic of the past, then it is history, and its meaning is probably dependant on how you store or display the item in question.

If the shop is selling “replica” daggers with Swastikas on them, then that worries me a lot more, because people are more likely to be acquiring them for what they symbolise rather then historic value.

But I am with JB that the government should stay out of it, we already have Racial Vilification and Hate laws, so if someone flies a swastika flag across the road from a holocaust survivor, they will be charged.

I’m more worried about the ‘Nazis’ who think it’s appropriate to wear the Australian flag as a symbol of nationalism (e.g. Pauline Hanson, redneck surfers from Cronulla, etc), rather than some people who might be interested in buying some WWII German fakes.

A friend of mine is very interested in WWII German Wehrmacht memorabilia and history – but only because he thinks the Wehrmacht were one of the best fighting forces in the war – generally very well disciplined and never gave any ground up too easily. That being said, he thinks the Nazis were a bunch of idiots that weren’t worth feeding.

johnboy said :

I’m pretty sure you don’t need a nazi flag on the wall and a knife in the trophy cabinet to have a clear understanding of the horrors of totalitarianism in the 20th century.

I guess we don’t need the War Memorial then, or maybe we should keep the War Memorial and just remove all the desensitizing, uprising inspiring Nazi items.

Owning a flag could just be seen as rebellious or nonconformist. It could be a talking point. Collecting stuff for personal interest is just that, personal interest.

Waving a flag and marching behind it with all your mates is making a political statement.

Australians are pretty good at dealing with nazi sympathisers. It helps if we can see who they are.

I’m pretty sure you don’t need a nazi flag on the wall and a knife in the trophy cabinet to have a clear understanding of the horrors of totalitarianism in the 20th century.

It’s not the same thing as a copy of Mein Kampf on the bookshelf.

And democratic government at that.

I’m saying that in my experience the people who “collect” it are uniformly vile and I don’t want to be associated with them in any way.

Extremely valid point this one.

The type of people who collect and display nazi memorabilia tend to do so due to a belief in the system that created the nazis in the first place.

What, Government?

woops; sorry, that was a response to Granny (#20)

Reply

Extremely valid point this one.

The type of people who collect and display nazi memorabilia tend to do so due to a belief in the system that created the nazis in the first place.

I take it you know every collector of nazi memorabilia, and am speaking from some kind of personal experience rather than making broad sweeping generalisations?

Collecting and displaying or war relics has been around since wars started, and it’s hardly been a gateway into the de-sensitisation and legitimisation of the Nazi regime.

trevar said :

These objects should be a symbol of pride for Jewish people. They should look at them and say ‘we survived those bastards’.

I really have to disagree strongly, Trevar.

Should a Martin Bryant t-shirt be a symbol of pride for Walter Mikac?

I think that’s kind of insensitive. I’m sorry but I do. Many Jewish people still living saw their whole family murdered. Pride? More like pain, I should think.

Interesting point Trevar, especially considering you think violence is warranted if you don’t like a certain decision.

I didn’t say that: you did. Read the post properly.

Violence is warranted when the powerful abuse their power, I just don’t think that the justices of the Australian High Court are inherently less likely to abuse their power the way the Nazis did.

johnboy said :

I’m not saying it shouldn’t be displayed in museums.

I’m saying that in my experience the people who “collect” it are uniformly vile and I don’t want to be associated with them in any way.

That seems pretty narrow minded. I personally believe that collections of war memorabilia regardless from which side is a positive step ensuring that we aren’t de-sensitised the events that have occured.

This is stupid.

I can’t see how owning a flag with a Swastika on it can make someone a Nazi, regardless of whether they’re fakes or not. A person’s ideology can’t be changed by what they’re allowed to buy or sell. If they are a Nazi, they’ll still be a Nazi even if you take all their Nazi iconography away, and if they’re not, they won’t become a Nazi by buying Nazi memorabilia.

If we don’t want Nazism to spread again, the best thing to do is make sure we know all we can about it. One of the reason why we are all so soundly convinced that Nazism is a bad thing is because of all the stories we’ve been told about WW2, and the only reason we know that there is a connection between Nazism and this memorabilia is because of all the films and images we’ve seen. If the stuff is hidden, then the terrors of WW2 are one (small) step closer to being repeated.

These objects should be a symbol of pride for Jewish people. They should look at them and say ‘we survived those bastards’.

jakez said :

I think banning the sale and possession of Nazi gear would be delightfully ironic.

I don’t think one has to be a nazi sympathiser to want to purchase or sell Nazi gear though. You could be a history buff etc.

or a photographer, or part of a film crew, or a re-enactor, or etc etc.

If you hide stuff away how are you going to prevent a repeat performance in later years. After all “Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.” (Sir Winston Churchill)

Just because it wasn’t a very nice part of history doesn’t mean it should be hidden away to be forgotten.

I’m not saying it shouldn’t be displayed in museums.

I’m saying that in my experience the people who “collect” it are uniformly vile and I don’t want to be associated with them in any way.

I think there’s a fair few “war nerds” who are into collecting this sort of stuff, without considering themselves to be fascist sympathisers. I guess they’d see it as “World War II memorabilia” rather than “Third Reich memorabilia”.

(The fascination with the uniforms, trinkets and weapons of war is faintly disturbing in itself, I suppose, but I’ve got to admit to being as interested as the next man when the RAAF shows off their hardware in public.)

Not right off… but the first step is de-sensitisation, followed by legitimisation.

Is owning/being able to purchase the memorabilia really desensitising people to the ideology it represents? Staying with the geographical theme, the German club has a section of the Berlin wall outside – is that desensitising people to the notion of a fascist socialist state that shoots anyone who tries to escape? Or is it a salient reminder of an historical episode we don’t want repeated?

I would argue that to hide/ban the sale of this stuff is at least as damaging as making it available, in as far as that it’s at best ignoring and at worst trying to forget about part of the world’s history that should never be forgotten. Those who do not study history etc…

Good point hahaha!

Instant Mash said :

I guess this stuff would be better suited for private sale, rather than through a store.

Now THAT sounds scary.

I think banning the sale and possession of Nazi gear would be delightfully ironic.

I don’t think one has to be a nazi sympathiser to want to purchase or sell Nazi gear though. You could be a history buff etc.

While I certainly understand johnboy’s libertarian response (in not wanting it banned but personally boycotting the centre) and respect it as the correct attitude to take for someone offended, I personally do not see anything wrong with it myself and thus don’t plan on boycotting.

I guess this stuff would be better suited for private sale, rather than through a store.

I’ll bet they’re fakes. A particularly cute niche in the fake memorabilia business – who’s going to complain that they’ve been sold fake Nazi stuff?

Not right off… but the first step is de-sensitisation, followed by legitimisation.

I don’t see the problem with it. It is only memorabilia. It’s not like it will incite the second coming of Hitler.

Because there are many things in this life which I don’t want to be party to myself but I think the Government should stay out of.

So if you think it is okay for the gear to be bought and sold, why the objection to the place doing the selling?

(I tend to agree with your stance, so it is a question I asked myself, which I can’t answer just yet.)