So you think you know about Gallipoli? The Second International Gallipoli Symposium will teach you more

johnboy said :

Yes Peter, you know more about the behaviour of Australian soldiers than the Vice Chief of General Staff in 1949 referring to what “past history has taught us”.

Go back to your myths if you need them to feel good about yourself.

Have a look at what New Zealand and US forces thought about their Australian counterparts too.

You can admire the way they fought on the Western Front, and at Alamein and Tobruk, without being blind to the reality.

The mythmaking you’re party to, that simply being Australian makes for better soldiers, rather than training, equipment, tactics, strategy, and logistics is extremely dangerous to future soldiers.

Jb, i agree, that there were instances in both world wars of disgraceful behaviour by australian troops. I was told of the looting and burning of cairo after the return of the australian troops from gallipoli.

I don’t believe being australian makes our troops better, but it does contribute to the determination of the few to overcome great odds. The lessons learnt by our military leaders through conflicts ensured that the future control of behaviour by australian troops was dealt with quickly – they ensured that the new regimen was discipline, not by british leaders, but by australians. This was the initial problem that the british encountered with the australian troops, assuming that they would be best led by the british.

This makes me think even higher of these Aussie soldiers.

As someone who studied military history at univestity my I venture an opion… There were as many reasons for joining up as there were soldiers. Some joined for Queen and country, soe for adventure, some because their mates did, some to avenge deaths of siblings easlier in war etc..

We like to think of them all as brave, and many were. Sadly they were also human with human frailties and some decided the war simply wasn’t for them and subsequently died or were imprisoned for their actions.

Drinking? again take your pick some didn’t, most did. Temperance was big around teh tiem iof WWI and some only started driking after expereincing ‘the horrors of war’, who wouldn’t. As for whoring.. red blooded males away from home for a very long time – so why not. As long as the troop didn’t frequent the officers ‘brothels’ it wasn’t a major deal.

Yes Peter, you know more about the behaviour of Australian soldiers than the Vice Chief of General Staff in 1949 referring to what “past history has taught us”.

Go back to your myths if you need them to feel good about yourself.

Have a look at what New Zealand and US forces thought about their Australian counterparts too.

You can admire the way they fought on the Western Front, and at Alamein and Tobruk, without being blind to the reality.

The mythmaking you’re party to, that simply being Australian makes for better soldiers, rather than training, equipment, tactics, strategy, and logistics is extremely dangerous to future soldiers.

johnboy said :

Here’s an authoritative source on Australian fears about Australian soldiers near booze.

We all know that the average digger likes a drink or two, and generally it doesn’t matter what it is, from fine wine through to medicinal alcohol mixed with lemon essence for a touch of flavour (it puts you to sleep well before you get drunk in case you were wondering).

And the defence of Australia was far more complex that the defeat of the Japanese Imperial Navy in in Midway and the Coral Sea (where there was a significant Australian surface force and the Surface taskforce was commanded by an Australian Admiral). It was essentially the battles of the Coral Sea, Milne Bay and the defence of the Kokoda track that kept the Japanese off Australian soil.

Saying we’d all be speaking Japanese if the USN hadn’t saved us sells short the significant contributions of the Australian, British and Dutch navies in the pacific and Indian oceans.

But anyways, back to the Dardenelles, home to many wars throughout history from the Seige of Troy, to the venetian – Ottoman wars in the 17th century to the turko-Russo wars in the 19th century. It was of great historic significance long before a bunch of young Australian, New Zealand, British, Canadian, Senegalese, Indian and French troops went ashore in 1915.

farnarkler said :

The dawn service at ANZAC cove polices itself. The idiots are soon weeded out and offered the choice of keeping their mouths shut or being given a slap. When the smart arses see the size of some of the islanders who are there for the service they behave themselves.

i had heard that. though i had heard that it was a diggers delegation…

Excellent to hear that farnarkler.

I love ugg boots!

: )

The dawn service at ANZAC cove polices itself. The idiots are soon weeded out and offered the choice of keeping their mouths shut or being given a slap. When the smart arses see the size of some of the islanders who are there for the service they behave themselves.

johnboy said :

Here’s an authoritative source on Australian fears about Australian soldiers near booze. Specifically:

“Further problems and disagreement between the State and Commonwealth authorities arose over the serious issue of supplying beer to the troops. Due to transport problems arising from the strike, beer had almost run out in hotels in the Hunter Valley. The army proposed to ship beer in from interstate, a move opposed by the NSW Minister for Justice on the ground that there should be no discrimination between the troops and the local inhabitants. The NSW Minister relented in the face of vehement argument from the Vice Chief of General Staff:

If beer is not to be provided in the camps we will be faced with precisely the same situation that past history has taught us to expect in that some troops will break camp and go into towns in search of liquor. The Hunter River Valley is notorious for cheap bad wines and the effect of these on the troops may well lead to disturbances which it is highly desirable to avoid.”

the document that you refer to speaks of the 1949 miners strike. The behaviour of the australian troops in peace time bears no resemblance to their behaviour during the first world war, or the second.

There were incidences in both wars of whoring and drunkeness, but, as there were hefty penalties imposed on australian soldiers by both australian CO’s and the british CO’s, the instances were mainly reserved to specific areas, and were dealt with harshly.

The problematic issues that were raised by the british over the behaviour of the australian soldiers during both wars were based on the apparent lack of discipline.

The Australian officers recognised the need for their soldiers to let off steam from time to time, however they also had rules which were adhered to.

It was cold though – so I did regret not bringing my ugg boots!

I do understand your disappointment, Clown Killer, but you of all people should know that being on a beach at Gallipoli at dawn does not necessarily make you a bogan.

Here’s an authoritative source on Australian fears about Australian soldiers near booze. Specifically:

“Further problems and disagreement between the State and Commonwealth authorities arose over the serious issue of supplying beer to the troops. Due to transport problems arising from the strike, beer had almost run out in hotels in the Hunter Valley. The army proposed to ship beer in from interstate, a move opposed by the NSW Minister for Justice on the ground that there should be no discrimination between the troops and the local inhabitants. The NSW Minister relented in the face of vehement argument from the Vice Chief of General Staff:

If beer is not to be provided in the camps we will be faced with precisely the same situation that past history has taught us to expect in that some troops will break camp and go into towns in search of liquor. The Hunter River Valley is notorious for cheap bad wines and the effect of these on the troops may well lead to disturbances which it is highly desirable to avoid.”

Of course they weren’t all Peter.

But it was a notable problem of our forces. As in forces from other countries found it remarkable.

Heck when Chifley was sending the army down the coal mines to break the miners strike the Generals were extremely concerned about putting their soldiers anywhere near the wine cellars of the Hunter Valley.

Try reading some non-Australian accounts of Australian involvement to come to a balanced perspective.

They were brave and they often fought like tigers, but we’re not talking about an army of saints either.

johnboy said :

We didn’t “need some help”

We were “completely reliant”.

The fight in Papua New Guinea was for the right of white Australians to sun themselves on PNG beaches without being troubled by natives and for our mineral companies to rape their land.

The defence of Australia was conducted at sea almost (note – almost) entirely by non-Australian forces.

I’ve been to more than my share of Dawn Services, but let’s not get carried away.

The whoring drunken farmboys (and good luck to them) desperate to escape their homes, even if it meant signing up to fight wars on the other side of the world, certainly wouldn’t have appreciated the over-reverence now attached by some.

jb, speaking as someone who has attended many dawn services,I think that this is probably the worst thing that you have said, since i have posted on this site. Personal shots at me I can handle, but please consider that there were many young men who joined up for their country, because their country asked them to.

They weren’t all farmboys, but they did make up the greatest percentage of youth ever to engage in conflict in australia’s history. The stocks of men able to fight in WWII were far less than that in the great war. Still, the men that returned and were able re-enlisted.

I don’t know where you have drawn the conclusion that they were all whoring and drunken. perhaps you should re-visit the AWM and contemplate what life might have been like if they hadn’t stepped up. I thank those brave souls who fought for us every remembrance day or Anzac day. I remember old friends who have died – men that fought in the conflicts after WWII as australian soldiers.

Granny, I guess my disapointment in the human condition comes from the choices people make.

I love nothing more than a handful of beers (not so into the two-up) after the dawn service and parade.

What troubles me is this. What would the response be if say 350 people in their teens and early twenties rocked up to the War Memorial at 5.15am on the 25th with their plasic shopping bags full of 500ml cans of beer, many of them drunk, having come straight from a big night out in Civic. Some of them with their own bugles so that they can have a go at playing along with the Last Post.

I always thought that eric bogle was trying to say “remember them as they grow older and they don’t march anymore, don’t forget what they did for australia” Jivrashia should listen to the song a bit more closely…

and the band plays waltzing matilda, and the old men, they answer the call, but year after year, those old men disappear, soon no-one will march there at all….

but we do see them marching. in their kids, their grand kids, their great grand kids. Proudly carrying their medals. saluting the flag. representing their family as a member of the australian family who laid down their lives for the country… and I feel proud of them every time i see it.

Well, they probably wouldn’t appreciate that their death in New Guinea was for the right of white Australians to sun themselves on PNG beaches without being troubled by natives and for our mineral companies to rape their land either.

I’m out.

We didn’t “need some help”

We were “completely reliant”.

The fight in Papua New Guinea was for the right of white Australians to sun themselves on PNG beaches without being troubled by natives and for our mineral companies to rape their land.

The defence of Australia was conducted at sea almost (note – almost) entirely by non-Australian forces.

I’ve been to more than my share of Dawn Services, but let’s not get carried away.

The whoring drunken farmboys (and good luck to them) desperate to escape their homes, even if it meant signing up to fight wars on the other side of the world, certainly wouldn’t have appreciated the over-reverence now attached by some.

Don’t we remember them all on ANZAC Day? I do. So we needed some help. It took a while coming.

I think the US Navy had a lot more to do with our current non-japanese speaking status than Anzacs.

I’m sorry you’ve had a bad experience, Clown Killer. If people don’t want to go, then nobody is making them. If people do want to go their choice should be treated with respect.

You could say the same about the races, or walking through Civic.

ANZAC day is a deeply personal thing. Bogans will be bogans even if we stopped celebrating it. Do you seriously think that it’s the fault of the flag, or remembering our fallen in war that these people are as they are?

If they didn’t stand up and fight we’d be living in Great South Japan now, and that’s simply a fact.

War is horrible. But sometimes it really is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees.

I’ve stood there alone and cold at dawn.

It loses it’s gravitas just a tad when you have to step over the bodies of Australian backpackers lying in their own vomit too drunk to get up.

Oh, I’ve never heard that one before! Thank you so much. I’d like you not to tell me how I should feel about ANZAC day or my family members lost in those wars.

Clown Killer said :

What I’m confused about is this ANZAC pilgrimage thing. Did I miss something?

The “pilgrimage thing” has gone from a quiet day of reflection to just another opportunity for cashed up bogans to export their jingoistic brand of ugly nationalism to another land. It’s a step or two back from the Cronulla riots but with a Mediterranean backdrop. You’re no longer missing much.

CK, not all of us aspiring to visit the place where some of our great grandfathers managed to survive and return to australia are bogans. I would like to see the place my grandfather described, even after he had been there many years later, after the 2nd world war. He saw it, as i do, as a place for reflection, in the stupidity of the commanding officers, and the futility of war. It is worth the pilgrimage to recognise that there were many, many young men lost, on both sides, for such a stupid reason.

Granny said :

Fine. Insult away!

Granny, I’d like you to mull over the song “And The Band Played Waltzing Matilda”.

Well, as a bogan, why wouldn’t I want to export my jingoistic brand of ugly nationalism?

oh granny, get off it.

Fine. Insult away!

What people dare is really their business and not yours Granny.

Much of a generalisation, what? A lot of school groups have been deeply moved by the Gallipoli experience, and a lot of regular Australians.

How dare you insult them like that! You’re the one sounding like a prejudiced bogan.

What I’m confused about is this ANZAC pilgrimage thing. Did I miss something?

The “pilgrimage thing” has gone from a quiet day of reflection to just another opportunity for cashed up bogans to export their jingoistic brand of ugly nationalism to another land. It’s a step or two back from the Cronulla riots but with a Mediterranean backdrop. You’re no longer missing much.

Jivrashia said :

What I’m confused about is this ANZAC pilgrimage thing. Did I miss something?

Yep.

I was lead to believe that 25/4/1915 was the day when someone cocked up really really badly and ended up leaving countless number of young men on shitty grounds to be slaughtered like cattles to the grinder, and the countries who served up those men were too embarrassed to even mention it for the following number of years until someone said let’s pay those men some respect, especially those that never returned.

What I’m confused about is this ANZAC pilgrimage thing. Did I miss something?

“Then in 1915, the country said ‘Son. There’s no time for rovin’ there’s work to be done.’ So they gave me a tin hat, and gave me a gun, and they sent me away to the war.”

That’s interesting. I studied at ANU when Dr Londey was there, then he went as a historian to the Australian War Memorial for some years, now evidently he’s back at ANU.

That Dardanelles area has seen a lot of activity over the millennia, and it is timely to remember that history didn’t start there when we fought a war there in 1915.