19 April 2016

Light rail or Monash Drive to solve Northbourne congestion?

14 April 2015 | Max_Rockatansky

Should we build the first stage of Light Rail or instead build Monash Drive to solve the problem of increasing congestion along Northbourne Avenue during peak times?

The current Government plans to build light rail along Northbourne Avenue, but previous Federal and ACT Governments had planned to eventually build Monash Drive.

Monash Drive had been proposed since the 60’s for the extra traffic anticipated when the suburbs of Gungahlin were eventually built. Shown on old maps, it runs behind Watson, Hackett and Ainslie from Northbourne to the City. It was dropped from the Territory plan in 2004, and from the National Capital Authority plan in 2009.

Why has there been no public discussion about Monash Drive as an alternative to Light Rail stage 1?
What is the cost-benefit analysis for building Monash Drive, and how does this compare with building Light Rail stage 1?
What is the triple-bottom-line analysis (social, economic, and environmental impacts) for building Monash Drive, and how does this compare with building Light Rail stage 1?
Has Monash Drive ever been costed and submitted to Infrastructure Australia for a grant consideration, and would they contribute?

Majura Parkway will cost $288M and is 12km long, with dual carriageway and a large bridge at the southern end. The ACT and Federal Governments are each paying half the construction costs. Monash Drive would be about 8km long.

Before Gungahlin Drive was extended (originally proposed as John Dedman Parkway), the debate was should we build either John Dedman Parkway or Monash Drive. In the end it was decided to extend Gungahlin Drive to the Glenloch Interchange and drop Monash Drive. Past Governments could have decided to build each road when the growth of Gungahlin required, and kept Monash Dr on the future plans.

What is the plan to deal with the significantly increased congestion along Flemington and Northbourne during the 3-year construction phase of rail? (Section 3.1.2.3 in the Business Case provides little detail on this issue.)
How would this compare to the construction of Monash Drive, which would mainly be on cleared land along the east of the Inner North?

Either Monash Drive or Light Rail stage 1 might be most suitable for Canberra, but we will not know without extensive public debate. ACT Labor and ACT Greens are past the points for debate on alternatives and are well along the tracks of light rail. The ACT Liberals have opposed light rail but not proposed an alternative solution to the increasing congestion along Northbourne Avenue during peak times.

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rommeldog568:21 pm 16 May 15

rubaiyat said :

Working in both Architecture and Advertising it is obvious that clients are largely their own worst enemies. They have an objective, then do exactly the opposite.

I wondered what will be come of all the “Al Fresco” areas. Looking at the neighbours they had become the smokers nook. A table, 2 chairs and an ash tray.

Maybe the clients have a different way of getting to their “objective”, its just that its not the rubaiyat way.

Maybe those that you seem to hold in low regard in their Al Fresco / smoking areas, with a view of the neighbours wall, in their boring looking box houses that all look the same all the way down the street, have no choice – its what they can afford. Planning, house design & siting isn’t exactly a forte in Canberra. And besides, architects cost a fortune anyway. Its development at all costs Im afraid. As the development and infill will be along the tram corridor too.

rubaiyat8:43 pm 11 May 15

rommeldog56 said :

rubaiyat said :

When I asked one particularly gloomy example, where the blinds that went up, not down, to hide the view of the neighbour’s gutters just outside the “picture window”, which way north was I got the usual blank, who cares look. It was rhetorical. I knew it was under the immense overhang that put the inside of the house into eternal gloom.

Sadly people seem to live their lives in equally dim light, unaware of their surroundings, what is really in front of them and how different it is to their preconceptions. Creatures of habit, they walk over the same cliffs, eating the rubbish conveniently put in front of them, obeying the same insistent voices from the same people that have always used them. Sheep to be herded and shorn, nary an original or inquisitive thought amongst them.

Well, it is obnviously not woth having a different set of values, views or priorities to rubaiyat, is it.

You are free to have all of those, just get them right.

Working in both Architecture and Advertising it is obvious that clients are largely their own worst enemies. They have an objective, then do exactly the opposite.

There is a reason that the real estate agents get the the interior decorators to fill the house with art and aspirational furniture, then turn on all the lights and pump the heating up. The Café lifestyle on the brochure becomes the corner take away. The Sports Centre is empty except for people eating the burgers.

It is all lipstick on the pig. Bait and switch.

The Googong houses, particularly, are built on the cheap.

Your heart may go all a flutter rommeldog but the beer goggles do wear off when you move in. Maybe YOU will never notice.

I wondered what will be come of all the “Al Fresco” areas. Looking at the neighbours they had become the smokers nook. A table, 2 chairs and an ash tray.

rommeldog566:51 am 11 May 15

rubaiyat said :

When I asked one particularly gloomy example, where the blinds that went up, not down, to hide the view of the neighbour’s gutters just outside the “picture window”, which way north was I got the usual blank, who cares look. It was rhetorical. I knew it was under the immense overhang that put the inside of the house into eternal gloom.

Sadly people seem to live their lives in equally dim light, unaware of their surroundings, what is really in front of them and how different it is to their preconceptions. Creatures of habit, they walk over the same cliffs, eating the rubbish conveniently put in front of them, obeying the same insistent voices from the same people that have always used them. Sheep to be herded and shorn, nary an original or inquisitive thought amongst them.

Well, it is obnviously not woth having a different set of values, views or priorities to rubaiyat, is it.

rubaiyat11:01 am 04 May 15

dungfungus said :

JC said :

rubaiyat said :

Really it just IS!

You don’t like trams, so you work backwards from that, scrapping the barrel as you go.

+1

The fact that only you and rubaiyat are the only ones that know what “IS” means proves you are acting in consort with each other.

Hardly, I have no clue who JC is other than the obvious possibility and I doubt he’d be bothering with this piddly forum.

I don’t think JC even agrees with my basic argument of where and how the Light Rail should go and what should be done about the town planning in this town.

On the other hand I do see a lot of concerted knee jerk denialism from you and several of the other posters. Most of it just pure emotion and not much thought gone into it.

In contrast I think we have given an enormous amount of basic and fairly easy to do research in return.

I get that a lot of your thinking is caught up in a lifetime of habit and “It just is” and “Always will be”. Your fear and rejection of all the science that is behind global warming is due to that, and a fear that how you live your live will be snatched away from you.

It really is unfortunate. Many years of working in architecture and associated professions has taught me just how irrational most people’s thinking really is, and how futile it is trying to go through things step by step, even offering examples and actual research. People wear the most amazing blinkers and sleep with them on. Battling the “Just is!” is fighting windmills.

I spent an afternoon looking over Wright in Molonglo to see where it is all going.

Molonglo and all these new developments for all their flaws show what people CAN do if they set their minds to it. Bare ground only a couple of years ago is now this massive development that has swallowed up the countryside.

Unfortunately, with the usual MacMansions squeezed on tight blocks, and the usual traffic jam in the making to get to the work commute.

As an architect I found it immensely depressing that despite the superficial stuck on “modernism”, here we are in 2015 and people still insist on houses that ignore the wonderful sunshine we have nearly all year in Canberra.

So bad in fact that virtually every house I inspected had all the lights and heating blazing.

When I asked one particularly gloomy example, where the blinds that went up, not down, to hide the view of the neighbour’s gutters just outside the “picture window”, which way north was I got the usual blank, who cares look. It was rhetorical. I knew it was under the immense overhang that put the inside of the house into eternal gloom.

Sadly people seem to live their lives in equally dim light, unaware of their surroundings, what is really in front of them and how different it is to their preconceptions. Creatures of habit, they walk over the same cliffs, eating the rubbish conveniently put in front of them, obeying the same insistent voices from the same people that have always used them. Sheep to be herded and shorn, nary an original or inquisitive thought amongst them.

dungfungus2:25 pm 29 Apr 15

JC said :

rubaiyat said :

Really it just IS!

You don’t like trams, so you work backwards from that, scrapping the barrel as you go.

+1

The fact that only you and rubaiyat are the only ones that know what “IS” means proves you are acting in consort with each other.

dungfungus11:17 am 29 Apr 15

JC said :

dungfungus said :

JC said :

dungfungus said :

This is how a LRT project can go horribly wrong even before it starts:
http://www.startribune.com/local/west/301418451.html?page=all&prepage=1&c=y#continue

Do you want some road projects that have gone wrong too? Locally how about the GDE, yeah I know all Labors fault, but still a good example is it not.

What about the cross city tunnel in Sydney? The Clem7 in Brisbane. Could go on.

I am glad you raised the road tunnels as examples as these were funded by PPPs and their failures impacted on taxpayers and superannuation fund contributors.
Additionally, the state governments had to continue underwriting the operating losses after the PPP failed.
In all cases the projected number of users fell well short of predictions (like the turnout at the AWM service last week).
Industry experts have warned the ACT Government from day one that the Canberra tram project would be unlikely to attract backers for a PPP.

Firstly which industry experts have warned the ACT Government. The road lobby industry, the Liebral party who are so despirate for a divisive issue to get into power. Which one?

As for lower expectations, your right all those tunnel projects are proving to be less busy than expected.

But lets look at light rail and some recent openings/extensions.

Gold Coast, exceeded forcast demand.
Dulwich Hill extension to Sydney, exceeding expectations, with severe over crowding.
Adelaide extension, exceeding expecactions.
Edinburgh, despite the whole thing being a fiasco, started to exceed expectations within the first few weeks of operation.

I could go on.

Read what Greg Steele says here in 2012: http://www.brw.com.au/p/sections/fyi/engineers_sharpen_pencils_over_act_6k2Aqho4zGOofaGfdDJ7aK
And comparing Canberra to Gold Coast, Adelaide and Edinburgh is pure folly as those three cities have lots of people, unlike Gungahlin.
Next question?

JC10:53 am 29 Apr 15

dungfungus said :

JC said :

dungfungus said :

This is how a LRT project can go horribly wrong even before it starts:
http://www.startribune.com/local/west/301418451.html?page=all&prepage=1&c=y#continue

Do you want some road projects that have gone wrong too? Locally how about the GDE, yeah I know all Labors fault, but still a good example is it not.

What about the cross city tunnel in Sydney? The Clem7 in Brisbane. Could go on.

I am glad you raised the road tunnels as examples as these were funded by PPPs and their failures impacted on taxpayers and superannuation fund contributors.
Additionally, the state governments had to continue underwriting the operating losses after the PPP failed.
In all cases the projected number of users fell well short of predictions (like the turnout at the AWM service last week).
Industry experts have warned the ACT Government from day one that the Canberra tram project would be unlikely to attract backers for a PPP.

Firstly which industry experts have warned the ACT Government. The road lobby industry, the Liebral party who are so despirate for a divisive issue to get into power. Which one?

As for lower expectations, your right all those tunnel projects are proving to be less busy than expected.

But lets look at light rail and some recent openings/extensions.

Gold Coast, exceeded forcast demand.
Dulwich Hill extension to Sydney, exceeding expectations, with severe over crowding.
Adelaide extension, exceeding expecactions.
Edinburgh, despite the whole thing being a fiasco, started to exceed expectations within the first few weeks of operation.

I could go on.

JC10:50 am 29 Apr 15

rubaiyat said :

Really it just IS!

You don’t like trams, so you work backwards from that, scrapping the barrel as you go.

rubaiyat10:30 am 29 Apr 15

Really it just IS!

You don’t like trams, so you work backwards from that, scrapping the barrel as you go.

dungfungus9:23 am 29 Apr 15

rubaiyat said :

JC said :

dungfungus said :

This is how a LRT project can go horribly wrong even before it starts:
http://www.startribune.com/local/west/301418451.html?page=all&prepage=1&c=y#continue

Do you want some road projects that have gone wrong too? Locally how about the GDE, yeah I know all Labors fault, but still a good example is it not.

What about the cross city tunnel in Sydney? The Clem7 in Brisbane. Could go on.

I didn’t want to rub it in because dungfungus is sounding like he is really back up against the wall.

But there is the bridge collapse and other major problems on the Gungahlin Drive and the eternal delays on the Majura Parkway and the collapse of the earth moving company involved, the enormously long delays on the Weston Creek duplication and all the other ACT major road projects not to mention those outside the ACT such as the Hume & Pacific highways which split along long lengths of the pavement and had to be repaired repeatedly, as did the section near Mittagong on the side of the hill.

Really we have little idea of what is going wrong on the many other road projects because they are not getting the knee jerk criticism, and dare I say it persecution, that Light Rail gets for all sorts of reasons but largely because there is a massive lobby out to make sure every single project gets immense irrational and vitriolic attacks.

It is as if Roads is the white middle class guy with the old school tie and circle of mates from the rugby club. Roads is above reproach because it serves the status quo and the establishment.

Rail and public transport is the black or jewish guy, with Light Rail the black jewish guy, if he doesn’t tip his hat and avert his gaze from “Missums” before stepping off the footpath as she passes or slips up in the slightest the anti-rail posse or lynch mob is on him.

dungfungus seems relatively intelligent, but none of that extends to a recognition that at heart his opposition to Light Rail, and it seems public transport, is simply a prejudice.

Nearly every single objection he has made has been either so trivial or ridiculous as to be laughable, and with my trained B.S. detector I have been having a field day with them.

It does tie in with his other deep-seated prejudices such as the Global Climate Change conspiracy, so not unexpected.

Nearly every critic in this and the other forums here has a huge blind spot to you can’t just let cars eat up the city and environment endlessly. In the AWM forum many simply can’t see why cars can’t just park all over the verges and parkland. Parking all over the nature strips and vegetation is just automatic. “Everybody just does it”. After all what is a car, especially that 4WD good for, if you can’t do whatever comes into your head when you feel like it. Just like the ads say you can.

Lets face it it is Animal Farm: “4WD bad, two legs walking or catching public transport bad”.

Ironically, but not unpredictably, the lack of exercise and personal mobility of drivers is turning them into images of the Napoleon in Animal Farm. Reason not being an option against that basic hypocritical selfish self interest that DRIVES them.

I don’t have my back to the wall and yes, I am reasonably intelligent. I can also present my argument focused on the subject matter and not all over the place like a dead squid.
Back to the light rail issue, my judgement on it has nothing to do with prejudice, it is based solely on common sense.
The Canberra LRT proposal that is on the table is simply not needed, it is not viable and it cannot be funded without risking the future of the ACT.
Really, one shouldn’t have to go any further but as long as you keep your enthusiasm for it I am happy to tell you why you are wrong.

rubaiyat8:49 am 29 Apr 15

JC said :

dungfungus said :

This is how a LRT project can go horribly wrong even before it starts:
http://www.startribune.com/local/west/301418451.html?page=all&prepage=1&c=y#continue

Do you want some road projects that have gone wrong too? Locally how about the GDE, yeah I know all Labors fault, but still a good example is it not.

What about the cross city tunnel in Sydney? The Clem7 in Brisbane. Could go on.

I didn’t want to rub it in because dungfungus is sounding like he is really back up against the wall.

But there is the bridge collapse and other major problems on the Gungahlin Drive and the eternal delays on the Majura Parkway and the collapse of the earth moving company involved, the enormously long delays on the Weston Creek duplication and all the other ACT major road projects not to mention those outside the ACT such as the Hume & Pacific highways which split along long lengths of the pavement and had to be repaired repeatedly, as did the section near Mittagong on the side of the hill.

Really we have little idea of what is going wrong on the many other road projects because they are not getting the knee jerk criticism, and dare I say it persecution, that Light Rail gets for all sorts of reasons but largely because there is a massive lobby out to make sure every single project gets immense irrational and vitriolic attacks.

It is as if Roads is the white middle class guy with the old school tie and circle of mates from the rugby club. Roads is above reproach because it serves the status quo and the establishment.

Rail and public transport is the black or jewish guy, with Light Rail the black jewish guy, if he doesn’t tip his hat and avert his gaze from “Missums” before stepping off the footpath as she passes or slips up in the slightest the anti-rail posse or lynch mob is on him.

dungfungus seems relatively intelligent, but none of that extends to a recognition that at heart his opposition to Light Rail, and it seems public transport, is simply a prejudice.

Nearly every single objection he has made has been either so trivial or ridiculous as to be laughable, and with my trained B.S. detector I have been having a field day with them.

It does tie in with his other deep-seated prejudices such as the Global Climate Change conspiracy, so not unexpected.

Nearly every critic in this and the other forums here has a huge blind spot to you can’t just let cars eat up the city and environment endlessly. In the AWM forum many simply can’t see why cars can’t just park all over the verges and parkland. Parking all over the nature strips and vegetation is just automatic. “Everybody just does it”. After all what is a car, especially that 4WD good for, if you can’t do whatever comes into your head when you feel like it. Just like the ads say you can.

Lets face it it is Animal Farm: “4WD bad, two legs walking or catching public transport bad”.

Ironically, but not unpredictably, the lack of exercise and personal mobility of drivers is turning them into images of the Napoleon in Animal Farm. Reason not being an option against that basic hypocritical selfish self interest that DRIVES them.

rubaiyat11:22 am 28 Apr 15

dungfungus said :

rubaiyat said :

JC said :

Oh my how Canberra has changed. We can argue if it is for the better, but it has changed, yet the attitudes haven’t.

Actually JC you really make an excellent point there.

Canberra ITSELF is a classic example. A proposed city in a sheep paddock, with no population and totally remote from everywhere else. Only a few sheepherders and public servants on day trips.

Nobody will come here! Building any infrastructure at all is a total waste of taxpayers’ money. There simply isn’t the population to justify a water fountain, let alone roads, or houses, or schools, or hospitals, or dams, or power stations, or shops, or offices, universities, or a railway station, or an airport… etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc ad infinitum!

Canberra will NEVER have a population of 385,0000 that will justify anything.

Yet here it is.

Go to the Botanical Gardens and read the Hansard debates where the usual obstructionist, conservative politicians, who never can imagine anything, objected to the creation of the National Botanical Gardens always arguing for other priorities (the usual sacred cows) and for the perpetual postponement of the Gardens until after something else. Always something that they personally benefitted from.

This was countered by one sole parliamentarian who pointed out just how long it takes to create something as worthwhile as the Botanical Gardens, and that NOW was the right time to start.

I am sure we will NOW get the a stack of reasons why something that obviously did happen in the past, is COMPLETELY different!

It should be right up there with impossible gradients, frost making the rails slippery, the ACT becoming bankrupt etc etc etc…

I know I am a bit of a raver but sometimes I like to hear a professional, so please carry on.

Not at all. Your stream of ever more implausible excuses is quite useful.

I’m working on an App that will randomly generate them out for any old occassion, where people “Jus’ Dun’ Wanna!”

Think Ill call it Sheldon. 😉

vintage12312:16 pm 27 Apr 15

rommeldog56 said :

JC said :

The other big issue of course is parking at work for many is starting to become an expensive aqnd increasingly rare commodity. What is the long term solution to that?

As mentioned in the US many cities are building light rail with park and rides closer to where people live. Where the land for carparking is cheaper, where they don’t have to build more roads or lanes into town. And if they decided to charge for parking at the park and ride, provided it was less than the city or parl triangle it would be a more attractive option.

Parking is a valid issue. Why is it so expensive now in Canberra ? Its not like we have a few million people competing for car parking spaces is it. It wouldnt be a pure revenue raising avenue for the ACT Gov’t would it ? It wouldn’t be a mechanism to drive (pun intended) commuters onto busses/light rail would it ?

Nah – of course not. So, if they charge for parking as a “drive,park & ride” feeder system for the toy train set, does anyone seriously believe that won’t be a significant dincentive to jump on the toy train set ?

Does anyone even care that outside of Dickson, that BCR has only 3 tram stops to the City (then terminates in the City itself). That there is no coherent plan to get pedestrains from one side of Northborne Ave to the other to get onto/off the tram? You can see pedestrian traffic lights along Northborne Ave stopping cars and busses.

And yeah – holding up LA using Light Rail (if thats what they are doing) to show a connection to whats happening in Canberra, is valid. The population is just so similar, isn’t it.

Canberra voters & ratepayers are just being herded like sheep – by the cattle dog called the ACT Gov’t, vested interests and solganism like “but we need Light Rail to grow up”, “there is nothing wrong with the Benefits Costs Ratio of 1:1.2 nor whats in that BCR”, “but its green”, “roads and car parks are ugly”, etc .

I notice melbourne cbd parking is now minimum $35 and most places in Sydney cbd are converting to $1 a minute systems. I think the canberra rates are relatively affordable when compared to mlb and Syd.

dungfungus11:13 am 27 Apr 15

JC said :

rommeldog56 said :

Parking is a valid issue. Why is it so expensive now in Canberra ? Its not like we have a few million people competing for car parking spaces is it. It wouldnt be a pure revenue raising avenue for the ACT Gov’t would it ? It wouldn’t be a mechanism to drive (pun intended) commuters onto busses/light rail would it ?

Nah – of course not. So, if they charge for parking as a “drive,park & ride” feeder system for the toy train set, does anyone seriously believe that won’t be a significant dincentive to jump on the toy train set ?

Does anyone even care that outside of Dickson, that BCR has only 3 tram stops to the City (then terminates in the City itself). That there is no coherent plan to get pedestrains from one side of Northborne Ave to the other to get onto/off the tram? You can see pedestrian traffic lights along Northborne Ave stopping cars and busses.

And yeah – holding up LA using Light Rail (if thats what they are doing) to show a connection to whats happening in Canberra, is valid. The population is just so similar, isn’t it.

Canberra voters & ratepayers are just being herded like sheep – by the cattle dog called the ACT Gov’t, vested interests and solganism like “but we need Light Rail to grow up”, “there is nothing wrong with the Benefits Costs Ratio of 1:1.2 nor whats in that BCR”, “but its green”, “roads and car parks are ugly”, etc .

Firstly Canberra’s parking is NOT expensive compared to say Sydney, so not sure what you comparision to Sydney has to do with anything. But the simple fact in Canberra it is become scarce due to government policy to limit car parking spaces in the CBD, yes in the hope of forcing people onto public transport.

As for LA, the comparison to LA is not the population, I mean to say in a population that large they should have a heavy rail system like Sydney and Melbounre has and then some. The main point is it is a car dominated city, like many US systems, that is doing something. Though of course light rail US and LA style is a bit heavier than the Euromodel we are (correctly IMO) following.

Oh as for pedestrians stopping traffic on Northborne Ave, really you are clutching for straws now. Should I point out the obvious that already there are vehicles crossing and turning onto Northborne, that are already stopping the flow. One would assume that pedestrians would cross Northborne at the same time that vehicles are crossing Northborne, as they do now.

Imagine what it will be like when the visionary oligarchy build 1000 apartments in Northbourne Ave in a vain attempt to entice their occupants (if indeed anyone will buy them) to use the 100 year old trams.

JC10:43 am 27 Apr 15

rommeldog56 said :

Parking is a valid issue. Why is it so expensive now in Canberra ? Its not like we have a few million people competing for car parking spaces is it. It wouldnt be a pure revenue raising avenue for the ACT Gov’t would it ? It wouldn’t be a mechanism to drive (pun intended) commuters onto busses/light rail would it ?

Nah – of course not. So, if they charge for parking as a “drive,park & ride” feeder system for the toy train set, does anyone seriously believe that won’t be a significant dincentive to jump on the toy train set ?

Does anyone even care that outside of Dickson, that BCR has only 3 tram stops to the City (then terminates in the City itself). That there is no coherent plan to get pedestrains from one side of Northborne Ave to the other to get onto/off the tram? You can see pedestrian traffic lights along Northborne Ave stopping cars and busses.

And yeah – holding up LA using Light Rail (if thats what they are doing) to show a connection to whats happening in Canberra, is valid. The population is just so similar, isn’t it.

Canberra voters & ratepayers are just being herded like sheep – by the cattle dog called the ACT Gov’t, vested interests and solganism like “but we need Light Rail to grow up”, “there is nothing wrong with the Benefits Costs Ratio of 1:1.2 nor whats in that BCR”, “but its green”, “roads and car parks are ugly”, etc .

Firstly Canberra’s parking is NOT expensive compared to say Sydney, so not sure what you comparision to Sydney has to do with anything. But the simple fact in Canberra it is become scarce due to government policy to limit car parking spaces in the CBD, yes in the hope of forcing people onto public transport.

As for LA, the comparison to LA is not the population, I mean to say in a population that large they should have a heavy rail system like Sydney and Melbounre has and then some. The main point is it is a car dominated city, like many US systems, that is doing something. Though of course light rail US and LA style is a bit heavier than the Euromodel we are (correctly IMO) following.

Oh as for pedestrians stopping traffic on Northborne Ave, really you are clutching for straws now. Should I point out the obvious that already there are vehicles crossing and turning onto Northborne, that are already stopping the flow. One would assume that pedestrians would cross Northborne at the same time that vehicles are crossing Northborne, as they do now.

rubaiyat3:43 am 27 Apr 15

dungfungus said :

I would like to know what you have established the daily number of commuters is that will use the Gungahlin-City light rail.
Remember, expressing commuters as ‘boardings’ is deceptive. A commuter who goes to work and back would be 2 boardings. If he stops for something at Dickson halfway home before completing his return trip, that would be 3.
I have a suspicion that Capital Metro are using “boardings” as the number of passengers which is correct as long as it is understood that 3 passengers may in fact be 1 commuter.

I have no real idea, other than what ACTION tells us use the Red Rapid into the City. I saw some stats about a year ago but can’t find them at the moment. I presume that ACTION should be able to provide numbers obtained from the MyWay data. They seem to be full during peak hours from all the reports I have read. I don’t ride them so can’t tell. Maybe someone from Gungahlin can tell us their experiences and how they would react to better options.

Judging on my experience with Light Rail they do attract more commuters, simply because they are a much more attractive transport option. Trams are roomy, reliable, run on time, don’t smell to high heaven of diesel, are quiet and don’t vibrate the fillings out of your teeth. Waiting for them is so much more pleasant. No foul, smelly, noisy, bus terminuses. Also WiFi is being added, so you can use your commute productively, not an option for drivers.

Being high capacity and frequent service there are very few trams required, so no vast parking lots. Mostly they are on the move circulating around the route. We will only have a very small handful of them I understand about 12-14. ACTION currently has 420 buses, many far too old and breaking down. By contrast 279,352 vehicles were registered in the ACT in 2014. Almost one for every man woman and child.

All of which tells you a lot about how efficient/inefficient each option is and how much money is being spent on each. We don’t have any light rail yet so have no usage stats but 7.7% of Canberra’s travel is being achieved with 420 buses. The rest of Australia has twice that usage of public transport. That is currently 1 out of every 13 journeys is accomplished with one out of 665 of the vehicles. If that was up to Australia wide standards that would be 2 out of every 13 journeys would be accomplished with even fewer vehicles and if those vehicles were electrically powered, it would be done at a huge savings in imports, pollution and the environment.

If you want to get more information refer to:

http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/mf/9309.0

http://www.capitalmetro.act.gov.au/news-and-publications/frequently-asked-questions

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_Metro,_Canberra

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ACTION

http://www.transport.act.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0003/397245/Pages_from_EDS_ACT_Transport_Policy_FA_final_web.pdf

http://www.action.act.gov.au/news/previous-news-articles/march-2014/actions-service-statistics-for-february-2014

The link to the ACTION “How we are travelling” report is dead. I have requested more information.

Maybe you can give me links to everything you have posted. I am sure they will be very interesting! 😉

rubaiyat2:27 am 27 Apr 15

JC said :

Even LA is getting in on the light rail movement!

I know I’ve used the Los Angeles Light Rail. It is fast. Not as fast as heavy rail but it does the job.

It is also in demand, not just by the passengers but by all the districts of Los Angeles, who are complaining if they don’t get the next line.

http://media.metro.net/riding_metro/maps/images/rail_map_underconstruction.pdf

There is a major shift in attitude in L.A.

None here though. Seems that oil will last forever and so will the car. And there is no cosnsequences to depending on them. Hover cars and self driving cars will fix exactly what ISN’T wrong with them.

Unfortunately Canberra’s planners did an L.A. copy cat, decades late of course and so long after that it was bleedin’ obvious it was a bad idea, and went for ridiculous urban sprawl with ludicrous commutes to work or anywhere in fact.

If you widely space everything you create a problem for all forms of transport, even cars. You also create that sense of desolate emptiness that Canberra suffered from for most of its history. A large part of the city becomes devoted to the noisy polluting and divisive roads to get you around. 55% in Canberra’s case!

Basic dysfunctional town planning. Only now in the last couple of years as Canberra reaches a critical population and higher inner city densities, are we getting interesting and lively urban spaces. Spaces like Lonsdale Street, New Acton, Kingston, Kingston Foreshore and Manuka.

I know there will be the Sandy Stones or Ted Bullpits who can not imagine we can ever leave their bland unchallenging suburbia or their precious Kingswoods, but it is going to happen. Without them.

Some will live in their denial bubble, the one which CO2 can never penetrate, so they will be alright. No matter what happens they will utter the magic words “No it isn’t” and it will go away.

Unfortunately the planning department and the Government seem to be equally as divided as the community. I have gone progressively through the published planning documents and it seems there was a shifting attitude towards a cleaner and more densely sustainable Canberra. Unfortunately the planning belies the intent and the practice contradicts the supposed planning.

Gungahlin was a much better designed centre. They kept the main street tight and ran the transport through it without an ugly bus terminus. The footpaths are wide, sunny and enjoyably lined with cafes and restaurants (as much as possible for a small population). There are some closer surrounding town houses and that is all good. But then it all falls apart. Gungahlin itself is too remote from work and within Gungahlin they spread everything away from the centre so people are forced back into cars beyond the narrow inner main street. The connecting internal roads force long circuitous routes to get anywhere, just like everywhere else in Canberra. Gungahlin was built backwards with the furthest developments at the far back and nothing in a huge gap heading back to central Canberra. And NO LOCAL JOBS, other than some retail.

It is almost schizophrenic. Main Street shows some smarts and all the rest is business as usual.

Didn’t stop Kate Carnell at the time spruiking it all up as being “Green” but she couldn’t name anything beyond “natural gas” supply to back it up. Heck we all have natural gas!

So you think we would learn from all that? No! Here comes Molonglo. Same old same old. Not even the patched on Light Rail to “Make it all work”.

Canberra can and should do better. Starting with a core light rail system at the heart, then fanning out to the surrounding townships, that would be understood, usable and appreciated by all of Canberra. Gungahlin should get its in its turn, after they have laid down the development to feed it, even though that will be an uphill struggle. ACT Planning is not working with natural development and growth, they are in the business of selling real estate. Remote real estate.

rommeldog5611:52 pm 26 Apr 15

rubaiyat said :

Why on earth aren’t the other 96% of us opposed to over engineered taxpayer funded roads that they never drive on, make no money, are filled with single occupant cars briefly in the morning and evening peak hours, and are practically empty the rest of the day?

I like how u speak for the 96%. So, if cars clog up roads “briefly in morning and evening peak hours and are practically empty the rest of the day” – I look forward to seeing the same passenger patterns/traffic on the toy train set. It will be no different. In your zealous predisposition to drive (pun intended) cars and roads of the face of the earth, you and other pro light rail commentators on Riotact forget that it only runs from Gunners CBD to the City CBD. It doesn’t even reach the outer suburbs of Gunners – which are still growing + it assumes that Gunners people just want to go to Civic. Traffic on the current Majura Road (and on the new Majura Parkway) proves that assumption wrong.

If anyone thinks that current ACTION bus services in Gunners/Nth Canberra wont be drastically affected by the toy train set – think again. They will be. There is no choice if the ACT Gov’t wants to feed passengers into it. Also, if anyone seriously thinks that the toy train set will materially reduce those dreaded single occupant cars clogging up roads in peak hour – think again – it won’t. If the peak hour road congestion is that bad, why arn’t Gunners commuters already hopping on an express bus and getting to Civic a whole 3 minutes slower than the toy train set will get them there (ACT Gov’t own estimate).

At the end of the day, it really isnt about an effective public transport system – its about using that as a mechanism to generate revenue from urban infill – and of course generate revenue for developers. Oh, and making Canberra “grow up” of course.

The toy train set is a folly – both economically and as an effective transport system.

vintage1239:45 pm 26 Apr 15

JC said :

vintage123 said :

Ah man, what’s the go with horse park drive in peak hour. Why would they build it single lane. The upgraded Majura parkway runs into a single lane at horse park. With jacka, moncreif and Throsby predicted to grossly increase traffic what is going to be done to fix the congestion. Light rail is not applicable as these cars are going elsewhere. Couldn’t even turn right across traffic for about ten minutes last night at six pm. Crazy.

In fairness building Horse Park as they has made perfect sense. What doesn’t however is as new suburbs have come on-line they haven’t started the process of duplication. It is pleasing to see however that the missing link in Horse Park from Casey to Amaroo has had the intersections built in final form, meaning of course the road can be more easily duplicated when the need demands it.

PS did you know that most of the southern section of Horse Park was only built as a temporary road? Hence the quality of road construction was less than other more permanent roads. Bit like when Gungahlin Drive was extended from Palmerston to Mitchell.

Oh something ironic, you are complaining about Horse Park rightly or wrongly, but in a thread elsewhere here someone is complaining how John Gorton Drive in Molonglo has been built as a massive road to nowhere. When in fact all the government has done there is build the road as dual lane, dual carriageway to the final alignment. See government just cannot win.

JC said :

vintage123 said :

Ah man, what’s the go with horse park drive in peak hour. Why would they build it single lane. The upgraded Majura parkway runs into a single lane at horse park. With jacka, moncreif and Throsby predicted to grossly increase traffic what is going to be done to fix the congestion. Light rail is not applicable as these cars are going elsewhere. Couldn’t even turn right across traffic for about ten minutes last night at six pm. Crazy.

In fairness building Horse Park as they has made perfect sense. What doesn’t however is as new suburbs have come on-line they haven’t started the process of duplication. It is pleasing to see however that the missing link in Horse Park from Casey to Amaroo has had the intersections built in final form, meaning of course the road can be more easily duplicated when the need demands it.

PS did you know that most of the southern section of Horse Park was only built as a temporary road? Hence the quality of road construction was less than other more permanent roads. Bit like when Gungahlin Drive was extended from Palmerston to Mitchell.

Oh something ironic, you are complaining about Horse Park rightly or wrongly, but in a thread elsewhere here someone is complaining how John Gorton Drive in Molonglo has been built as a massive road to nowhere. When in fact all the government has done there is build the road as dual lane, dual carriageway to the final alignment. See government just cannot win.

I drove along the complete length of horse park drive today to just checkout the North and how the suburbs are progressing.

I noticed the lights at Amaroo service station is only single lane heading into town. This is going to be a huge bottleneck with moncreif and jacka coming on line.

JC1:26 pm 26 Apr 15

wildturkeycanoe said :

watto23 said :

And so the options for those people will be better because they drop their kids off at school, and park at the light rail station. People in Sydney do this no problems. I noticed Holsworthy station has a mulitstory carpark for rail commuters. so rather than building lots of long duplicated roads, they need to just cater for traffic within Gungahlin.

There is no doubt Canberra needs better public transport infrastructure. Whether its light rail or bus rapid transport or something else, the answer isn’t wasting money on building more roads.

So, instead of turning the feeder roads out of Gungahlin into traffic jams, you will turn the likes of Mirrabei Dr, Gundaroo Drive, Horse Park Drive and Gungahlin Drive into parking lots as everyone tries to get into the park and ride facility in the town shopping center. No doubt this will also become a paid parking facility to help recoup the construction costs of the tramway. The traffic jams are not going to disappear, they will just get confined to a smaller area of Gungahlin.
I wonder if so many less cars are going to be cluttering up the roads will driving to Civic become quicker than mass transit?
Imagine spending ten minutes stuck bumper to bumper for that last 500 meters just after the Anthony Rolfe Avenue-Gundaroo Drive roundabout, then lining up in the cold Canberra wind for the next empty tram, perhaps another 10 to 15 minute wait with hundreds of others packed like sardines at the Station. Overall, it may be a nicer and quicker option to sit in a nice warm car, cruising along Gungahlin Drive, listening to the news on the radio instead of being slowly wiggled into a crowded tin can.
People will find the quickest and most convenient option, inevitably there will become a point at which the tram becomes less appealing and driving is faster. Considering the lights along Northbourne will be phased to allow trams priority, cars will also benefit from this with getting the green light run all the way into the city.
Time will tell, apparently because there is no going back now. I forecast patronage to never reach the figures used to justify construction. Future taxpayers will heavily subsidize the continued running of this business at a loss, whilst traffic problems may or may not improve at all. Hundreds of millions of dollars will be spent to cater for the commuting needs of only around 13,700 people daily growing to 20,000 whilst Canberra’s overall population is expected to be 450,000. So, 4% of Canberra will benefit from this system. Why on earth aren’t the other 96% of us opposed?

Interesting analogy about turning Mirrabei Dr, Gundaroo Drive, Horse Park Drive and Gungahlin Drive into parking lots. Isn’t that what is happening anyway? So what is the difference between roads and light rail then?

The other big issue of course is parking at work for many is starting to become an expensive aqnd increasingly rare commodity. What is the long term solution to that?

As mentioned in the US many cities are building light rail with park and rides closer to where people live. Where the land for carparking is cheaper, where they don’t have to build more roads or lanes into town. And if they decided to charge for parking at the park and ride, provided it was less than the city or parl triangle it would be a more attractive option.

wildturkeycanoe10:16 am 26 Apr 15

watto23 said :

And so the options for those people will be better because they drop their kids off at school, and park at the light rail station. People in Sydney do this no problems. I noticed Holsworthy station has a mulitstory carpark for rail commuters. so rather than building lots of long duplicated roads, they need to just cater for traffic within Gungahlin.

There is no doubt Canberra needs better public transport infrastructure. Whether its light rail or bus rapid transport or something else, the answer isn’t wasting money on building more roads.

So, instead of turning the feeder roads out of Gungahlin into traffic jams, you will turn the likes of Mirrabei Dr, Gundaroo Drive, Horse Park Drive and Gungahlin Drive into parking lots as everyone tries to get into the park and ride facility in the town shopping center. No doubt this will also become a paid parking facility to help recoup the construction costs of the tramway. The traffic jams are not going to disappear, they will just get confined to a smaller area of Gungahlin.
I wonder if so many less cars are going to be cluttering up the roads will driving to Civic become quicker than mass transit?
Imagine spending ten minutes stuck bumper to bumper for that last 500 meters just after the Anthony Rolfe Avenue-Gundaroo Drive roundabout, then lining up in the cold Canberra wind for the next empty tram, perhaps another 10 to 15 minute wait with hundreds of others packed like sardines at the Station. Overall, it may be a nicer and quicker option to sit in a nice warm car, cruising along Gungahlin Drive, listening to the news on the radio instead of being slowly wiggled into a crowded tin can.
People will find the quickest and most convenient option, inevitably there will become a point at which the tram becomes less appealing and driving is faster. Considering the lights along Northbourne will be phased to allow trams priority, cars will also benefit from this with getting the green light run all the way into the city.
Time will tell, apparently because there is no going back now. I forecast patronage to never reach the figures used to justify construction. Future taxpayers will heavily subsidize the continued running of this business at a loss, whilst traffic problems may or may not improve at all. Hundreds of millions of dollars will be spent to cater for the commuting needs of only around 13,700 people daily growing to 20,000 whilst Canberra’s overall population is expected to be 450,000. So, 4% of Canberra will benefit from this system. Why on earth aren’t the other 96% of us opposed?

rubaiyat1:29 am 25 Apr 15

dungfungus said :

Are you aware that there is a 30kph speed difference between Sydney suburban electric trains and the light rail trams proposed for Canberra?

People here do not seem to be paying attention.

The Light Rail proposed is not Sydney’s fast heavy rail that quickly connects distant suburbs like Blacktown, even the Blue Mountains, Central Coast and Wollongong. Sydney’s express trains beat cars in the areas they serve.

Canberra’s lack of transport options was baked into the bad town planning that located all the satellite townships and major destinations as far from each other as possible. Even in the townships, the transport options are terrible, particularly Belconnen and Tuggeranong, where the commute into the sad shopping malls that pass for urban centres can be up to 11km.

Major transport destinations like schools, universities, hospitals, sports facilities, entertainment, dining and shopping strips were generally built off the beaten track. There is no particular co-herence to even the location of work. Gungahlin virtually has none, as it looks like Molonglo won’t either. Even if you have a few offices like Belconnen, doesn’t mean you will work in them. You don’t usually switch houses with jobs, even if you are renting. Home owners are locked into their purchases by the stamp duties that were supposed to go once we had the GST.

Gungahlin was designed as a lost cause. It did not need to sprawl at the far end of a large remote valley, with even the major destinations within that remote location, being built as far from each other as possible. For a large number of commuters in Gungahlin a two step transport option to the City makes no sense. Half would be back tracking to park and wait for a slow transport option to the City where in all likelihood they will need to change yet again, and as everyone knows, free parking disappears as soon as the Government gets a chance to charge for it.

Nevertheless Blind Freddy can see that Canberra has to be weaned off its dependence on fossil fuel and endless freeways. The fuel is imported, subject to supply problems and price increases, causes geo-political havoc, is THE cause of our continuous massive trade deficit and burning the stuff is ruining our planet. And roads just choke up with traffic as surely as night follows day.

Fossil fuels are NOT a long term solution. Which of course is WHY we waste them as if there is no tomorrow, given the choice people will always pick the most self destructive option.

Canberra has to be recast into a denser, tighter and much more interesting city now that it is finally growing up. Into vital, interesting, inner city areas like New Acton and Braddon.

Build on those and grow outwards. Take away the need for cars within the central area of Canberra and you don’t have to haul your car into the City. Link Dickson to the City through a higher density Braddon. There is plenty of room and existing momentum to build on that corridor, unlike Flemington Road.

Use Light Rail to connect the popular destinations around the City, cross the lake to the Parliamentary Triangle attractions, to the higher density suburbs of Manuka, Kingston and Kingston foreshores. Link all the shopping, restaurants, hotels, bars, galleries, museums, markets, Manuka Oval and encourage more. Loop over King George bridge to connect the Airport, Russell Offices, Reid offices, CIT, possibly the ANU and the future Sports facility next to Commonwealth Park.

With an attractive, easy way of getting around the Inner City, natural growth will take over and reduce the need for unnecessary sprawl and endless commuting. A workable light rail line, can then grow from the core and reach out to the outer areas. Work from the heart out, not vice versa.

Canberra is growing up. This is not the 60’s anymore, hasn’t been for a long time.

JC12:11 am 25 Apr 15

dungfungus said :

People are asking for road improvements, not options because the totally inflexible light rail will have no use or appeal to them.
Can’t you see that Gunghalin is the new “nappy valley” of Canberra?
A place where a car (even two per household) is a necessity to commute, drop off the kids to childcare/school, get the groceries, go to the gym, go to see sport etc.
Even if light rail is used instead of the existing buses the users have to get to the town centre first. Not everyone rides a bike or walks you know.
People “along the route” who now use buses to commute may try the sexier light rail for a while but the aggregate of people using public transport in Canberra will not increase as a consequence.
People in Canberra need cars as well. It’s a fact of life here.

So what your saying is we should make all the same mistakes that were made in Tuggeranong?

Firstly the road network for the most part is fine, there are some roads that could do with upgrading thats for sure, and Nudur drive should be extended to Gungahlin Drive. But there is no need for any new major arterial road into Gungahlin. I mean to say they already have 3 ways in, Gungahlin Drive, Northborne Ave/Flemmington Road or Barton Highway and Horse Park Drive. More than Tuggernaong actually, yet some narrow minded people want an additional road option.

Secondly an inter urban transport system is very much need and can be justified. Now for those that need their cars, nothing stopping them driving to the park and ride. The proposed location is in quite a good place for most of Gungahlin, about the only two parts that might be hard is Crace and the part of Nicholls closest to the Barton highway. The rest has relatively easy access to Horse Park Drive, Flemmington Drive or Gungahlin Drive. And indeed that is the whole idea. High density corridor along the route to serve those that live along the route, and park and ride, or connecting bus for others. Win win, if you take your head out of the sand.

dungfungus1:37 pm 24 Apr 15

JC said :

dungfungus said :

This is the crux of the problem as the light rail plan is speculating that the attempts to densify the rail route will provide all the passengers.
Where else in the world (except China who pays cash) are mass transit systems built pro-actively?
It’s as you say,a concept /image/slogan driven mindset which will bankrupt the ACT for many years.

They are not speculating, the demand is there right now and whilst not fully developed, if you were to leave Tuggeranong, or consult Google maps/street view you would see the development along this route there already. I even posted a link to the territory plan that shows what is there now and planned.

The fact people are asking for road options goes to show there are people in the area who feel the current infrastructure is not up to scratch, which must mean there is demand, be it for roads or public transport. The question however is what is the better option for Gungahlin and the city as a whole.

In both cases the ‘investment’ is mainly for peak hour demand. I mean to say Gungahlin Drive, Horse Park Drive, and Gundaroo Drive/Barton highway more than adequately provide road based options outside of peak hour. Likewise light rail will be overkill for outside the peaks, but during the peak does offer a sensible and viable solution.

So the core question, do we build a new road that is only going to be needed 10-15 hours a week, or try something different, utilizing existing road corridors that likewise will only be used to its fullest 10-15 hours a week?

People are asking for road improvements, not options because the totally inflexible light rail will have no use or appeal to them.
Can’t you see that Gunghalin is the new “nappy valley” of Canberra?
A place where a car (even two per household) is a necessity to commute, drop off the kids to childcare/school, get the groceries, go to the gym, go to see sport etc.
Even if light rail is used instead of the existing buses the users have to get to the town centre first. Not everyone rides a bike or walks you know.
People “along the route” who now use buses to commute may try the sexier light rail for a while but the aggregate of people using public transport in Canberra will not increase as a consequence.
People in Canberra need cars as well. It’s a fact of life here.

rubaiyat11:55 pm 23 Apr 15

rommeldog56 said :

I believe that a mass transport system is necessary but that the proposed and soon to be contracted for Light Rail – with its narrow feeder area and inflexible routes, is certainly not it.

We agree on that, although by definition rail is a fixed route, just it should be well planned to be CLOSE to the commuters as possible, not plunked wherever there is a gap. Because that gap is for cars which were designed to be as FAR from where people live as possible.

It maybe a crazy idea, but for once work backwards from where most people want to go. Initially fanning out from the City and growing the system as part of a bigger picture and plan. My ideal first stage would be Kingston – Manuka – City – Dickson – Watson, passing all the major Parliamentary triangle attractions and the existing higher density housing, with more high density housing, offices, restaurants and shops the entire length of the corridor.

Canberra’s roads have been designed not to cut travel times, but to skirt residential, commercial and retail areas. For visitors it is quite confusing because they don’t drive past anything, it all looks empty.

Light rail has to do the exact opposite, running through the core of where people live, work and play to add to the convenience, mobility and colour of urban life. So not up Northbourne Ave but up Lonsdale St, passing through the heart of all the suburbs en route, an easy walk for pedestrians, shoppers and people enjoying being out.

The knee-jerk reaction to build more roads flies against all the evidence all around the world for the last hundred years that besides eating up the landscape, they do not fix anything, just create more congestion and lives wasted sitting in cars developing road rage.

But who knows? Maybe this time it will actually work!

The Labor/Greens are no more challenged than the alternative. They all jump when developers, the car lobby and special interests snap their fingers.

dungfungus9:55 pm 23 Apr 15

rommeldog56 said :

Max_Rockatansky said :

Thanks for the comments, and some general responses are –

Yes, Monash Drive has already been discussed and decided, but that was before we knew how expensive just stage 1 of light rail will be. In view of that cost, and how it compares to the cost of Majura Parkway, it would be prudent to consider Monash Drive again.

Yes, some badly planned and built roads cause as many problems as they cure, but Canberra has 5,900 lane kilometres (from TAMS) of roads that have been serving our city fairly well for decades, so one more running parallel to Northbourne to assist with the peak times may also serve us well. ( I agree some of the Gungahlin town centre roads are a dog’s breakfast.)

Dry sclerophyll forest is the most common forest type on our continent, according to Wikipedia, so would not prevent building Monash Drive (perhaps that post was just a tease).

As Monash Drive would significantly reduce congestion along Northbourne Avenue, the main road into our Nation’s Capital, then perhaps Infrastructure Australia would consider contributing. We will never know if our government never asks.

Agree with much of what you say. However, I dont think you will find too much support from Light Rail supporters who are so obviously concept/image/slogan driven and so suseptable to influence by ACT Gov’t spin.

I believe that a mass transport system is necessary but that the proposed and soon to be contracted for Light Rail – with its narrow feeder area and inflexible routes, is certainly not it.

I don’t know if the proposed Monash Drive would qualify for Federal funding, but we will never find out because there is no way that the ACT Gov’t will seek that as they are far too committed to their toy train set proposal now – which the Fed’s refused to fund. That’s another one of the options that were never properly evaluated by this planning challenged ACT Labor/Greens Government, I’m afraid.

It could only happen in Canberra……..

“I believe that a mass transport system is necessary…..”
What masses? Where are they?
This is the crux of the problem as the light rail plan is speculating that the attempts to densify the rail route will provide all the passengers.
Where else in the world (except China who pays cash) are mass transit systems built pro-actively?
It’s as you say,a concept /image/slogan driven mindset which will bankrupt the ACT for many years.

rommeldog568:38 pm 23 Apr 15

Max_Rockatansky said :

Thanks for the comments, and some general responses are –

Yes, Monash Drive has already been discussed and decided, but that was before we knew how expensive just stage 1 of light rail will be. In view of that cost, and how it compares to the cost of Majura Parkway, it would be prudent to consider Monash Drive again.

Yes, some badly planned and built roads cause as many problems as they cure, but Canberra has 5,900 lane kilometres (from TAMS) of roads that have been serving our city fairly well for decades, so one more running parallel to Northbourne to assist with the peak times may also serve us well. ( I agree some of the Gungahlin town centre roads are a dog’s breakfast.)

Dry sclerophyll forest is the most common forest type on our continent, according to Wikipedia, so would not prevent building Monash Drive (perhaps that post was just a tease).

As Monash Drive would significantly reduce congestion along Northbourne Avenue, the main road into our Nation’s Capital, then perhaps Infrastructure Australia would consider contributing. We will never know if our government never asks.

Agree with much of what you say. However, I dont think you will find too much support from Light Rail supporters who are so obviously concept/image/slogan driven and so suseptable to influence by ACT Gov’t spin.

I believe that a mass transport system is necessary but that the proposed and soon to be contracted for Light Rail – with its narrow feeder area and inflexible routes, is certainly not it.

I don’t know if the proposed Monash Drive would qualify for Federal funding, but we will never find out because there is no way that the ACT Gov’t will seek that as they are far too committed to their toy train set proposal now – which the Fed’s refused to fund. That’s another one of the options that were never properly evaluated by this planning challenged ACT Labor/Greens Government, I’m afraid.

It could only happen in Canberra……..

dungfungus11:29 am 23 Apr 15

rubaiyat said :

dungfungus said :

The Perth/Airport rail link and the MAX light rail were key election promises of the current Liberal government but the light rail was shelved and now the airport rail link looks to the same fate.
WA has FIFO workers, we have public servants. Both are in decline.
If it is smart enough for WA to shelve the rail projects while in government then why can’t the ACT government do the same?
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-04-21/fifo-numbers-plunge-prompts-perth-airport-rail-rethink/6410452

As usual I see you NOT calling for the fiscal responsibility of stopping work on The Majura Parkway or Molonglo! You personally enjoy doing free donuts all over fresh taxpayer paid for bitumen.

WA is in much more dire financial trouble having so successfully opposed the Labor attempt at securing a resource tax whilst the billionaires were laughing at their good fortune at being the ones to flog off all Australia’s minerals at top dollar and get to keep the proceeds for themselves. Sending most of not just the mineral wealth, but the money from it, overseas.

Similarly the conservative forces fight tooth and nail against having to pay for the financial benefits they get from publicly paid for infrastructure, whether that be the endless roads or the public transport that really boosts real estate values, spruiking selling off public assets as “fiscal responsibility”.

http://theconversation.com/how-to-build-light-rail-in-our-cities-without-emptying-the-public-purse-39255

Henry George nailed all this way back in the 1800s when he proposed a Land Value Tax, but the rich saw right through this attempt at changing the status quo where the taxpayer pays and they reap.

The rich have seen how easy it is to persuade the masses to their version of socialism where the taxpayer pays, whilst the rich receive and avoid tax. All in the hopes of a few unlikely crumbs falling back the taxpayers’ way. A run away process that has so successfully turned America into a nation of the immensely rich, who squirrel their wealth overseas, and a working poor and middle class that live off debt to maintain the illusion of their past lifestyle.

Canberra will continue to grow, despite any public service cut backs, just as it always has, and as usual we will have failed to prepare for that growth and be just as dependent, if not more on oil, roads and endless sprawl, having gone for the easy buck of one off land speculation.

Two points.
The Majura Parkway is needed. Light rail anywhere in Canberra is not.
Canberra hasn’t stopped growing but the rate of growth is in serious decline.
I can see you won’t be convinced that all is good until Australia becomes a socialist utopia.

rubaiyat11:24 pm 22 Apr 15

dungfungus said :

The Perth/Airport rail link and the MAX light rail were key election promises of the current Liberal government but the light rail was shelved and now the airport rail link looks to the same fate.
WA has FIFO workers, we have public servants. Both are in decline.
If it is smart enough for WA to shelve the rail projects while in government then why can’t the ACT government do the same?
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-04-21/fifo-numbers-plunge-prompts-perth-airport-rail-rethink/6410452

As usual I see you NOT calling for the fiscal responsibility of stopping work on The Majura Parkway or Molonglo! You personally enjoy doing free donuts all over fresh taxpayer paid for bitumen.

WA is in much more dire financial trouble having so successfully opposed the Labor attempt at securing a resource tax whilst the billionaires were laughing at their good fortune at being the ones to flog off all Australia’s minerals at top dollar and get to keep the proceeds for themselves. Sending most of not just the mineral wealth, but the money from it, overseas.

Similarly the conservative forces fight tooth and nail against having to pay for the financial benefits they get from publicly paid for infrastructure, whether that be the endless roads or the public transport that really boosts real estate values, spruiking selling off public assets as “fiscal responsibility”.

http://theconversation.com/how-to-build-light-rail-in-our-cities-without-emptying-the-public-purse-39255

Henry George nailed all this way back in the 1800s when he proposed a Land Value Tax, but the rich saw right through this attempt at changing the status quo where the taxpayer pays and they reap.

The rich have seen how easy it is to persuade the masses to their version of socialism where the taxpayer pays, whilst the rich receive and avoid tax. All in the hopes of a few unlikely crumbs falling back the taxpayers’ way. A run away process that has so successfully turned America into a nation of the immensely rich, who squirrel their wealth overseas, and a working poor and middle class that live off debt to maintain the illusion of their past lifestyle.

Canberra will continue to grow, despite any public service cut backs, just as it always has, and as usual we will have failed to prepare for that growth and be just as dependent, if not more on oil, roads and endless sprawl, having gone for the easy buck of one off land speculation.

JC9:25 am 21 Apr 15

rubaiyat said :

JC said :

Cannot believe I am going to say this, but agree with you!

Show me the increased rates on the minuscule amount of ACT land available, balanced against the lost rates/leases from all the businesses that have relocated into the Canberra International Airport real estate.

All of which ignores that it is the EXISTING Majura Road, paid for separately by the ACT taxpayer, that has provided the real access to the ACT land that hasn’t been cut off, or covered over, by the Majura Parkway.

Umm, I like you don’t support the development of the airport as a retail and business park for the reason you mention, you also make a valid point how people want roads, despite the fiscal return, but oppose public transport if they don’t meet fiscal return criteria. However the development at the airport has nothing to do with the Majura Parkway construction.

Majura Parkway was built not to bypass Majura road near the airport per se, but as an alternative for Monash Drive to provide a highway grade road from Gungahlin to the south and for heavy vehicles travelling from the Federal and Barton highways to Fyshwick, Hume and beyond.

Majura road despite its improvements was not capable of carrying the traffic that was using that road, let alone extras coming from additional development along the Horse Park Drive corridor in Gungahlin.

In fact I seem to recall one of the biggest opponents to Majura Parkway was in fact the airport, as Majura Parkway takes away the passing traffic into their development. They wanted an additional interchange to be built just to get to Majura Park easier. As it stands people from the north need to exit near the AFP and go down Majura Road, or go to the Fairbairn Ave exit and back-track.

To me transport solutions in this town and everywhere needs to be a mix of roads and public transport. I reckon Majura Parkway AND light rail are the solutions to transport issues in Gungahlin. I don’t think Monash drive is a good solution however.

So light rail Vs Monash drive, light rail for me, Monash Drive Vs Majura Parkway, Majura Parkway wins.

rubaiyat10:37 pm 20 Apr 15

JC said :

As for planning documents, can I suggest you read the territory plan. Quite clearly sets out the zoning and construction requirements for the corridor.

Now a really cool way to look at the plan is on a map. Look at the one in the link below and look at Flemmington road, and what do you see?

RZ4 (which is the 2nd highest density housing in the ACT) from the town center to Harrison. Then CZ4 and CZ5, which is highest and 2nd highest mixed used commercial/residential planning allowed.

Then look down Northborne Ave and what do you see, pretty much the same. Yeah there are a few bits in between with nothing planned now, but clearly that’s where the light rail will have less stops and can be developed latter.

Now to people who ask why not light rail elsewhere in Canberra, a quick look at this map will explain quite clearly. Only the Northborne and Flemmington Road corridors (Plus Molonglo) have been built like this. All the other intertown routes have just bushland and low density housing estates along the side. The only thing I don’t follow is why John Gorton Drive hasn’t been designed with a wider median for future light rail, would be perfect to link Woden and Belconnen via Molonglo using it.

I’ve looked at the plan. Exactly as I said 60% is basically empty paddock.

A good chunk of the proposed high rise residential, in the middle of nowhere, is only on one side of the road. The other is existing townhouses.

The rest is proposals that either don’t make sense or conflict with what is already there. The CZ4 and CZ5 is low rise commercial, at best a small suburban shopping strip. They are not exactly going to line that route. Maybe KFC, Maccas and used car yards will?

No major destinations en route, mostly just the rail in the middle of the divided road, away from any possible attractions.

The Light Rail stops at Mitchell, the Racecourse, the Hockey Centre and Deakin are a long walk away from the real destinations, across busy roads.

I am not looking at this as some lines drawn on a map, I am looking from the on ground perspective of the user, the commuter.

rubaiyat9:38 pm 20 Apr 15

JC said :

rubaiyat said :

dungfungus said :

The Majura Parkway has created access to a lot of rateable land for the government in the Airport area and has obviated the short/medium term need to increase the capacity of existing roadways which is a saving for the government.
That sounds like a win win to me and I haven’t even read about this BCR stuff.

The $288 million toll free Majura Parkway, built with no return to the taxpayer, is a BYPASS of Majura Valley and Canberra.

The existing Majura Road and Pialligo Ave, that were already upgraded at great expense by the ACT taxpayer, provide access to all that is left of the thin sliver of land between the Parkway and the Airport that is still in ACT government hands.

All the rest of the vast Majura Valley is leased by Canberra International Airport from the Commonwealth government and to my knowledge does not pay rates.

Canberra International Airport has created huge retail developments in Majura Park, the highly successful Brindabella Park offices and is planning a second runway with a redevelopment of the Fairbairn Estate.

All poached tenants from Canberra City to the west or Fyshwick to the south.

Even, I believe, Canberra Tourism!

So the hugely expensive Majura Parkway was built at ACT taxpayer’s expense so that skiers can completely avoid Canberra.

And the turn off to Pialligo Avenue and Majura Road lets Canberra International Airport better sell its private real estate to ACT businesses that used to be in Canberra City.

That sounds like lose lose to me.

For $288 million dollars of taxpayers money! …and is still not complete.

Agree with the basic sentiment, but Majura Parkway is a road that should have been built, and ironically in the context of this conversation it is indeed the substitute for Monash Drive for getting people from Gungahlin to the south without having to use Northborne Ave.

Not arguing against bypasses where they make sense, but the costs and returns argument is a load of bollocks.

This is just the taxpayer paying for infrastructure for rich people, that takes away income from our own government.

The biggest beneficiary of the Majura Parkway is Canberra International Airport, a private company, and Infrastructure Australia, who recommended the proposal, and is the landlord and beneficiary of the Canberra International Airport lease.

I really object to the gross hypocrisy of: “I want roads, make everyone else pay” and “I don’t want public transport, make the user pay”.

I am against socialism for corporations, paid for by everyone who pays their tax and doesn’t ship their profits overseas. The corporations want the infrastructure? Let them pay for it.

JC9:11 pm 20 Apr 15

rubaiyat said :

JC said :

rubaiyat said :

Gungahlin was supposedly designed with light rail in mind but that would have meant the potential commuters would be in easy walking distance of the line and they are not. They certainly shouldn’t have been stuck down the far end as far from the centre of Canberra, and their own town centre, as they could get.
.

Half right. Gungahlin the satellite town WAS NOT designed for light rail. What was designed for light rail is the Gungahlin town centre to City corridor, which has been built with high desnsity housing along it, and the road built to accept light rail later.

Again what many fail to realise is light rail is meant to service that corridor not the whole district. Though those outer suburbs that need to change in Gungahlin town centre (as most suburbs do now) will benefit along those that can access the park and ride.

Have you travelled along that “high density” corridor?

I highly recommend shooting out in both directions as a test to to see if you can actually hit anything.

How come the ACT government keeps quoting the ENTIRE population of Gungahlin and surrounding suburbs as users of the Light Rail? Not this “high density” corridor which has not been quantified either currently or in the future? Nor appears on any planning documents that I can find.

Yeah have driven along there many times, in fact looking at moving into the area (not for light rail though).

As for planning documents, can I suggest you read the territory plan. Quite clearly sets out the zoning and construction requirements for the corridor.

Now a really cool way to look at the plan is on a map. Look at the one in the link below and look at Flemmington road, and what do you see?

RZ4 (which is the 2nd highest density housing in the ACT) from the town center to Harrison. Then CZ4 and CZ5, which is highest and 2nd highest mixed used commercial/residential planning allowed.

Then look down Northborne Ave and what do you see, pretty much the same. Yeah there are a few bits in between with nothing planned now, but clearly that’s where the light rail will have less stops and can be developed latter.

Now to people who ask why not light rail elsewhere in Canberra, a quick look at this map will explain quite clearly. Only the Northborne and Flemmington Road corridors (Plus Molonglo) have been built like this. All the other intertown routes have just bushland and low density housing estates along the side. The only thing I don’t follow is why John Gorton Drive hasn’t been designed with a wider median for future light rail, would be perfect to link Woden and Belconnen via Molonglo using it.

http://www.legislation.act.gov.au/ni/2008-27/current/default.asp?identifier=MapsMaps+%28for+detailed+maps+see+%3Ca+href%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eactmapi%2Eact%2Egov%2Eau%2F%22+target+%3D+%22%5Fblank%22%3EACTMAPi%3C%2Fa%3E+maintained+by+the+Planning+and+Land+Authority%29Australian+Capital+Territory

JC8:53 pm 20 Apr 15

vintage123 said :

JC said :

vintage123 said :

JC said :

vintage123 said :

I just spent the week in Melbourne paying particular attention to the tram service from a canberra metro point of view. I still can not see how the canberra light rail will be a success. The whole transport dynamics is completely different in the ACT. For passenger convenience you would need these trams running at five to ten minute intervals, and considering the length of the proposed track and expected patronage if this was the case it would be a hell of a lot of trams with no one on them. Sounds just like the current bus service.

There is your problem, Melbourne has a tram network, which is a but like a bus network. Though with frequency and capacity that buses couldn’t hope of effectively carrying.

What is being proposed here and what is working in many places around the world, including in car dominated USA is modern light rail. Different beast. So want to see that in action locally go to Sydney and look at the inner west extension there or go to the Gold Coast and see what they have done.

What I did in melbourne was simulate the canberra metro by taking a 12 km tram ride. The main point was that people got on and off the tram at frequent short intervals. There was a constant change in passengers. Over the 12km journey I noticed the whole passenger list change over 30 times. That led me to believe that an average 45 passengers, rotating 30 times equals 1350 fees. Now I would assume this is similar on the Gold Coast where the strip has locations where people will get on and off. In canberra however I am not sure this is going to be the case. I think most people will get on at gungahlin and off in the city. This is grossly different to the dynamics of the melbourne and Gold Coast systems. i don’t think many people will jump on at gungahlin and off at Harrison for example. Some may jump off at Mitchell but I am not too sure many will jump on at the industrial estate, they may near Watson. My point is that you can’t have an efficient system if people don’t rotate on and off. If people only get on along the way and everyone gets off at the end point it will need to be a long tram that starts empty and ends full. That’s not economically viable unless the ticket prices are really high to compensate. That will lead to people not using it. I am not sure canberra has the dynamic to suit a tram like melbourne or the Gold Coast.

Again you took a ride on a tram in a tram network, in a city that is nothing like Canberra.

Go ride a modern light rail network for 12km in a similar city.

No worries, just let me know where the comparable city is with the light rail and I will go and check it out.

Sydney, especially the Dulwich Hill extension. Even Adelaide is a good example.

vintage1239:11 pm 19 Apr 15

JC said :

vintage123 said :

JC said :

vintage123 said :

I just spent the week in Melbourne paying particular attention to the tram service from a canberra metro point of view. I still can not see how the canberra light rail will be a success. The whole transport dynamics is completely different in the ACT. For passenger convenience you would need these trams running at five to ten minute intervals, and considering the length of the proposed track and expected patronage if this was the case it would be a hell of a lot of trams with no one on them. Sounds just like the current bus service.

There is your problem, Melbourne has a tram network, which is a but like a bus network. Though with frequency and capacity that buses couldn’t hope of effectively carrying.

What is being proposed here and what is working in many places around the world, including in car dominated USA is modern light rail. Different beast. So want to see that in action locally go to Sydney and look at the inner west extension there or go to the Gold Coast and see what they have done.

What I did in melbourne was simulate the canberra metro by taking a 12 km tram ride. The main point was that people got on and off the tram at frequent short intervals. There was a constant change in passengers. Over the 12km journey I noticed the whole passenger list change over 30 times. That led me to believe that an average 45 passengers, rotating 30 times equals 1350 fees. Now I would assume this is similar on the Gold Coast where the strip has locations where people will get on and off. In canberra however I am not sure this is going to be the case. I think most people will get on at gungahlin and off in the city. This is grossly different to the dynamics of the melbourne and Gold Coast systems. i don’t think many people will jump on at gungahlin and off at Harrison for example. Some may jump off at Mitchell but I am not too sure many will jump on at the industrial estate, they may near Watson. My point is that you can’t have an efficient system if people don’t rotate on and off. If people only get on along the way and everyone gets off at the end point it will need to be a long tram that starts empty and ends full. That’s not economically viable unless the ticket prices are really high to compensate. That will lead to people not using it. I am not sure canberra has the dynamic to suit a tram like melbourne or the Gold Coast.

Again you took a ride on a tram in a tram network, in a city that is nothing like Canberra.

Go ride a modern light rail network for 12km in a similar city.

No worries, just let me know where the comparable city is with the light rail and I will go and check it out.

JC4:37 pm 19 Apr 15

vintage123 said :

JC said :

vintage123 said :

I just spent the week in Melbourne paying particular attention to the tram service from a canberra metro point of view. I still can not see how the canberra light rail will be a success. The whole transport dynamics is completely different in the ACT. For passenger convenience you would need these trams running at five to ten minute intervals, and considering the length of the proposed track and expected patronage if this was the case it would be a hell of a lot of trams with no one on them. Sounds just like the current bus service.

There is your problem, Melbourne has a tram network, which is a but like a bus network. Though with frequency and capacity that buses couldn’t hope of effectively carrying.

What is being proposed here and what is working in many places around the world, including in car dominated USA is modern light rail. Different beast. So want to see that in action locally go to Sydney and look at the inner west extension there or go to the Gold Coast and see what they have done.

What I did in melbourne was simulate the canberra metro by taking a 12 km tram ride. The main point was that people got on and off the tram at frequent short intervals. There was a constant change in passengers. Over the 12km journey I noticed the whole passenger list change over 30 times. That led me to believe that an average 45 passengers, rotating 30 times equals 1350 fees. Now I would assume this is similar on the Gold Coast where the strip has locations where people will get on and off. In canberra however I am not sure this is going to be the case. I think most people will get on at gungahlin and off in the city. This is grossly different to the dynamics of the melbourne and Gold Coast systems. i don’t think many people will jump on at gungahlin and off at Harrison for example. Some may jump off at Mitchell but I am not too sure many will jump on at the industrial estate, they may near Watson. My point is that you can’t have an efficient system if people don’t rotate on and off. If people only get on along the way and everyone gets off at the end point it will need to be a long tram that starts empty and ends full. That’s not economically viable unless the ticket prices are really high to compensate. That will lead to people not using it. I am not sure canberra has the dynamic to suit a tram like melbourne or the Gold Coast.

Again you took a ride on a tram in a tram network, in a city that is nothing like Canberra.

Go ride a modern light rail network for 12km in a similar city.

dungfungus2:24 pm 19 Apr 15

rommeldog56 said :

rubaiyat said :

The lack of transport planning has nothing to do with what side of politics is in, no party has done it and there is even less hope of the Liberals doing it.

ACT Planning has never shown any interest either. The lot of them all sit in Government paid for cars on the roads they helped build for their own convenience.

I agree the BCR isn’t worth the paper it is written on. But that is always the way isn’t it? The consultant always puts up a report that merely confirms whatever the person paying for it wants. Look at the current Federal Liberal’s load of…, on tax, social and environment planning, the NBN and the economy. Hans Christian Andersen wrote better Business Case Studies.

The Liberals love the hypocrisy of BCSes. Theirs, the C is always silent.

It really takes no report or study to show that cities that fail to plan for public transport that reduces the need for oil fuelled road transport, will pay, and in the current situation pay massively down the track. Ignoring the damage that roads and road based transport do, what happens if there is an interruption to the oil that runs it or forces its price up through the ceiling?

Prudent insurance against the foreseeable future would have you do what every sensible government, around the world is doing: building urban transport networks running off sustainable energy.

Singapore the country that supplies us with most of our refined and unrefined petroleum products is not so stupid as to rely on it themselves. Any smart dealer doesn’t get hooked on his own merchandise.

I am certainly not an ACT Liberals supporter but I have heard them say that they would improve the bus network. We will have to wait and see what their transport policy is closer to the election. However we can clearly see what the ACT Labor/Greens Govt’s transport policy is – a mess and its not getting any better. They are consumed with the spin and opportunities of self promotion that offers. But voters should not dismiss an alternative ACT Government with comments such as “there is even less hope of the (ACT) Liberabls doing it”. They only way these days to judge that is to send a clear message at the ballot box that economic mismanagement, poor fiscal priority setting and ill conceived infrastructure projects (such as the light rail) that are supported by bodgy Business Cases, will not be tolerated and to vote them out. The message that will send to an alternative Gov’t is clear. If they don’t head it – vote the out too at the next election. They will learn. It will create a period of instability in Government – but will produce better Govt decision making in the longer term. It is undeniable though that ACT labor has held power for the majority of self Government, so I would think that the poor mass transport planning/integration can be fairly placed at their feet. So, we continue to vote them back. Makes perfect sense.

And no, its no use dismissing the bodgy Light Rail Benefits Cost Ratio Business Cases as being typically “not worth the paper they are written on”. That is certainly not the case in my 20+ years of periodically looking at those. If they arn’t as you say “not worth the paper they are written on”, then I would much rather see a BCR of 1:4.2 as it was for the Majura Parkway than the 1:1.2 for the Gunners-City Light Rail. 1:1.2 is a shocker. But i suppose the ACT Gov’t will hire yet another consultant in a few years to spin that it actually did make 1:1.2 – or more.

To condone and shrug off decisions by an incumbant Govt (Liberal, Labor, ACT or Federal) is to condem voters/ratepayers/taxpayers to more of the same. But we all know that ACT Labor will retain power for a number of reasons. So that discussion does not matter anyway.

The main reason Labor will keep winning in Canberra is because most people who work for government agencies are compelled to vote for Labor as a condition of their union membership.
I know I got howled down last time I suggested that but I did provide a link to the union constitution confirming that and nothing has changed since that I am aware of.

rubaiyat12:47 pm 19 Apr 15

dungfungus said :

rubaiyat said :

JC said :

Take links to QBN for example, the bus lane works on Canberra are part of this policy.

That got me curious, because I know it never has been good.

Run by QCity not ACTION, doesn’t use MyWAY, costs $8, takes half an hour.

The $8 cost is the real cost. The only subsidies private bus operaters in NSW receive are for school bus services.
Meanwhile, the billions of dollars worth of underutilised mass rail transport infrastructure which is runs from Bungendore parallel to the Kings Highway and Canberra Avenue awaits a government to see that a significant amount of the 10,000 cars coming into Canberra daily from the region to the East could be taken off the road for the cost (under $10 million) of establishing a daily regional rail commuter service (without the overhead wires). The Greens are always demanding cars be taken off the road so where are they when you need them?
Victoria is enjoying great success with regional rail using Australian built DMU rolling stock.
Yeah, I know, it’s not as sexy and expensive as light rail from nowhere to somewhere so let’s forget about it.

Not true. Veolia and other private operators run government subsidised bus services all over Sydney and regional centres.

The CountryRail Canberra to Sydney train passes through Bungendore 3 times a day in each direction. But the roads lobby made sure the Canberra station was put in an inconvenient siding over a kilometre away from Kingston, well outside the City Centre, with the rail infrastructure neglected and left to rot.

Northbourne Ave didn’t stop 7km outside of the City, on the wrong side of the Lake, with travellers forced to switch to alternative transport to get to their destination.

Don’t know where you are getting the “billions of dollars” of rail from, nor how you manage to blame the Greens who are not in government control anywhere, let alone NSW.

Whilst you are at it, blame the dastardly Greens for the Tarago garbage trains that are the largest users of the southern rail line. The politicians who actually make the decisions, are merely the innocent dupes of their verdant cunning.

rommeldog569:10 am 19 Apr 15

rubaiyat said :

The lack of transport planning has nothing to do with what side of politics is in, no party has done it and there is even less hope of the Liberals doing it.

ACT Planning has never shown any interest either. The lot of them all sit in Government paid for cars on the roads they helped build for their own convenience.

I agree the BCR isn’t worth the paper it is written on. But that is always the way isn’t it? The consultant always puts up a report that merely confirms whatever the person paying for it wants. Look at the current Federal Liberal’s load of…, on tax, social and environment planning, the NBN and the economy. Hans Christian Andersen wrote better Business Case Studies.

The Liberals love the hypocrisy of BCSes. Theirs, the C is always silent.

It really takes no report or study to show that cities that fail to plan for public transport that reduces the need for oil fuelled road transport, will pay, and in the current situation pay massively down the track. Ignoring the damage that roads and road based transport do, what happens if there is an interruption to the oil that runs it or forces its price up through the ceiling?

Prudent insurance against the foreseeable future would have you do what every sensible government, around the world is doing: building urban transport networks running off sustainable energy.

Singapore the country that supplies us with most of our refined and unrefined petroleum products is not so stupid as to rely on it themselves. Any smart dealer doesn’t get hooked on his own merchandise.

I am certainly not an ACT Liberals supporter but I have heard them say that they would improve the bus network. We will have to wait and see what their transport policy is closer to the election. However we can clearly see what the ACT Labor/Greens Govt’s transport policy is – a mess and its not getting any better. They are consumed with the spin and opportunities of self promotion that offers. But voters should not dismiss an alternative ACT Government with comments such as “there is even less hope of the (ACT) Liberabls doing it”. They only way these days to judge that is to send a clear message at the ballot box that economic mismanagement, poor fiscal priority setting and ill conceived infrastructure projects (such as the light rail) that are supported by bodgy Business Cases, will not be tolerated and to vote them out. The message that will send to an alternative Gov’t is clear. If they don’t head it – vote the out too at the next election. They will learn. It will create a period of instability in Government – but will produce better Govt decision making in the longer term. It is undeniable though that ACT labor has held power for the majority of self Government, so I would think that the poor mass transport planning/integration can be fairly placed at their feet. So, we continue to vote them back. Makes perfect sense.

And no, its no use dismissing the bodgy Light Rail Benefits Cost Ratio Business Cases as being typically “not worth the paper they are written on”. That is certainly not the case in my 20+ years of periodically looking at those. If they arn’t as you say “not worth the paper they are written on”, then I would much rather see a BCR of 1:4.2 as it was for the Majura Parkway than the 1:1.2 for the Gunners-City Light Rail. 1:1.2 is a shocker. But i suppose the ACT Gov’t will hire yet another consultant in a few years to spin that it actually did make 1:1.2 – or more.

To condone and shrug off decisions by an incumbant Govt (Liberal, Labor, ACT or Federal) is to condem voters/ratepayers/taxpayers to more of the same. But we all know that ACT Labor will retain power for a number of reasons. So that discussion does not matter anyway.

rubaiyat2:18 am 19 Apr 15

JC said :

rubaiyat said :

There are still two things the ACT Government should provide

1. Town Planning that works with the Light Rail

2. A transport plan for the whole of Canberra preferably extending to Queanbeyan as well

The Government is not helping their case by providing neither. Instead it just offers vague waffle about possibilities. As it is anybody can make anything up. If there was some bigger plan then a lot of wind would go out of the opposition.

You raise some interesting points, but bit curious about the two numbered above.

With number 1 there is town planning that works with light rail and there has been a policy about this for many many mnay years. The proof can be seen if you drive down Flemmington Road. The whole corridor has been build differently from anywhere else in Canberra, to provide a high density corridor that is suitible for a high capacity rapid public transport system. The median was built extra wide, to allow for light rail if that was deemed to be the solution, which it has.

Additionally the government has had policy and plans for the redevelopment of the Northborne Ave corridor to high density housing too.

With point 2 again their is a government policy, which is being implimented, and it includes strategies for links to QBN. A great deal of this policy is being implemented. Take links to QBN for example, the bus lane works on Canberra are part of this policy.

The policy is not just public transport, but transport ACT wide, so roads, busm bicycle, walking etc

http://www.transport.act.gov.au/policy_and_projects/transport_for_canberra_policy

There has only been a lot of vague, very inconsistent talk. Nothing in the actual plans.

To plan for public transport you concentrate destinations and development along corridors set aside for the transport. We have the opposite, remote sprawling suburbia with skirting road systems because even the hopeless planners we have, recognise that drivers don’t want to live anywhere near the major roads that they demand.

Just along the Gungahlin to City line an amazing 60% of it is open paddock, the rest except for the very ends are remote from the Light Rail line stuck in the middle of the wide roads they really designed for.

Gungahlin was supposedly designed with light rail in mind but that would have meant the potential commuters would be in easy walking distance of the line and they are not. They certainly shouldn’t have been stuck down the far end as far from the centre of Canberra, and their own town centre, as they could get.

There are no connections to major destinations except for the ends. No major educational, sporting or work place destinations en route. The race track entrance is a good kilometre away from the line as is the Hockey Centre.

The only attractive destination en route, the Dickson Shops and Restaurants, are a longish walk away crossing several lanes of busy traffic.

The higher density housing in Braddon is closer to the City than the Light Rail.

Most of Gungahlin, at the other end, is pushed so far away from its centre, where the Light Rail terminates, that getting to it to use it is unfeasible.

The absolute clear proof of lack of intent and support for Light Rail and a decent public transport system is Molonglo, which will be huge and looks just like all the other towns built in Canberra, impossible to get around without cars.

rubaiyat1:27 am 19 Apr 15

rommeldog56 said :

I agree with some of your points re an integrated plan – but u have to be realistic – this is the Labor/Greens ACT Government u are talking about ! There is little hope of that happening I’m afraid.

Re the report in the link.

How do u expect that report would have turned out ? Its author is ex South Australian Transport Authority chief Derek Scrafton – where they have trams that actually have some integration into a wider mass transport transport system + greater population, etc.

They might as well commissioned Danian Haas,from that Light Rail support group, John Hargraves ex MLA or rubaiart to write it !

As a counter, there was some professor of economics speaking on Mark Partons show on 1206 the other morning. There is a pod cast of it on the 2CC radio station site. He said that if one of his economics students had written that Business Costs Ratio (BCR) – the business case that the Gunners-Civic tram was appoved on, then he would have been “disappointed”. Unsurprisingly, he wasn’t paid by the ACT Gov’t for that view either so has no vested interest in it.

Enough said.

The lack of transport planning has nothing to do with what side of politics is in, no party has done it and there is even less hope of the Liberals doing it.

ACT Planning has never shown any interest either. The lot of them all sit in Government paid for cars on the roads they helped build for their own convenience.

I agree the BCR isn’t worth the paper it is written on. But that is always the way isn’t it? The consultant always puts up a report that merely confirms whatever the person paying for it wants. Look at the current Federal Liberal’s load of…, on tax, social and environment planning, the NBN and the economy. Hans Christian Andersen wrote better Business Case Studies.

The Liberals love the hypocrisy of BCSes. Theirs, the C is always silent.

It really takes no report or study to show that cities that fail to plan for public transport that reduces the need for oil fuelled road transport, will pay, and in the current situation pay massively down the track. Ignoring the damage that roads and road based transport do, what happens if there is an interruption to the oil that runs it or forces its price up through the ceiling?

Prudent insurance against the foreseeable future would have you do what every sensible government, around the world is doing: building urban transport networks running off sustainable energy.

Singapore the country that supplies us with most of our refined and unrefined petroleum products is not so stupid as to rely on it themselves. Any smart dealer doesn’t get hooked on his own merchandise.

rommeldog563:43 pm 18 Apr 15

rubaiyat said :

A review has been released on the Capital Metro light rail business case:

http://www.canberratimes.com.au/act-news/act-government-releases-review-of-capital-metro-light-rail-business-case-20150417-1mn4a9.html

It contains two crucial points. One is the recognition of the clause to ditch the project if private proposals are too costly. Second it asks for the obvious: data on the total public transport trips along the proposed corridor.

The passenger numbers are an obvious starting point as no light rail proposal has ever reduced trip numbers and the experience is that it does increase patronage, often dramatically. Even limited systems like the Glenelg tram in Adelaide, and the Dulwich Hill line in Sydney, which takes a very roundabout route to the City are very popular with commuters who seem to prefer the pleasant experience of the tram over an unpleasant bus ride.

The Gold Coast light rail is still early days, but has taken off and attracts large numbers of passengers and is past debating its merits. All anybody in the Gold Coast talks about now is how to extend it.

Work has begun on the Newcastle light rail, which probably has a worse case than the Gungahlin line, in that it simply substitutes for an existing short rail line and doesn’t run far or meet any commuter needs. It’s sole reason is to take away the rail barrier between the City and the waterfront and provide a frequent shuttle up and down the much neglected Newcastle CBD.

There are still two things the ACT Government should provide

1. Town Planning that works with the Light Rail

2. A transport plan for the whole of Canberra preferably extending to Queanbeyan as well

The Government is not helping their case by providing neither. Instead it just offers vague waffle about possibilities. As it is anybody can make anything up. If there was some bigger plan then a lot of wind would go out of the opposition.

I agree with some of your points re an integrated plan – but u have to be realistic – this is the Labor/Greens ACT Government u are talking about ! There is little hope of that happening I’m afraid.

Re the report in the link. How do u expect that report would have turned out ? Its author is ex South Australian Transport Authority chief Derek Scrafton – where they have trams that actually have some integration into a wider mass transport transport system + greater population, etc.

They might as well commissioned Danian Haas,from that Light Rail support group, John Hargraves ex MLA or rubaiart to write it !

As a counter, there was some professor of economics speaking on Mark Partons show on 1206 the other morning. There is a pod cast of it on the 2CC radio station site. He said that if one of his economics students had written that Business Costs Ratio (BCR) – the business case that the Gunners-Civic tram was appoved on, then he would have been “disappointed”. Unsurprisingly, he wasn’t paid by the ACT Gov’t for that view either so has no vested interest in it. Enough said.

dungfungus12:03 pm 18 Apr 15

rubaiyat said :

A review has been released on the Capital Metro light rail business case:

http://www.canberratimes.com.au/act-news/act-government-releases-review-of-capital-metro-light-rail-business-case-20150417-1mn4a9.html

It contains two crucial points. One is the recognition of the clause to ditch the project if private proposals are too costly. Second it asks for the obvious: data on the total public transport trips along the proposed corridor.

The passenger numbers are an obvious starting point as no light rail proposal has ever reduced trip numbers and the experience is that it does increase patronage, often dramatically. Even limited systems like the Glenelg tram in Adelaide, and the Dulwich Hill line in Sydney, which takes a very roundabout route to the City are very popular with commuters who seem to prefer the pleasant experience of the tram over an unpleasant bus ride.

The Gold Coast light rail is still early days, but has taken off and attracts large numbers of passengers and is past debating its merits. All anybody in the Gold Coast talks about now is how to extend it.

Work has begun on the Newcastle light rail, which probably has a worse case than the Gungahlin line, in that it simply substitutes for an existing short rail line and doesn’t run far or meet any commuter needs. It’s sole reason is to take away the rail barrier between the City and the waterfront and provide a frequent shuttle up and down the much neglected Newcastle CBD.

There are still two things the ACT Government should provide

1. Town Planning that works with the Light Rail

2. A transport plan for the whole of Canberra preferably extending to Queanbeyan as well

The Government is not helping their case by providing neither. Instead it just offers vague waffle about possibilities. As it is anybody can make anything up. If there was some bigger plan then a lot of wind would go out of the opposition.

“It contains two crucial points. One is the recognition of the clause to ditch the project if private proposals are too costly. Second it asks for the obvious: data on the total public transport trips along the proposed corridor.”
This is nothing new.
This “independent report” was written by an academic who worked for the same department as the current CEO of Capital Metro Agency.
One could think “well, he would say that, wouldn’t he?”

vintage12310:45 am 18 Apr 15

JC said :

vintage123 said :

I just spent the week in Melbourne paying particular attention to the tram service from a canberra metro point of view. I still can not see how the canberra light rail will be a success. The whole transport dynamics is completely different in the ACT. For passenger convenience you would need these trams running at five to ten minute intervals, and considering the length of the proposed track and expected patronage if this was the case it would be a hell of a lot of trams with no one on them. Sounds just like the current bus service.

There is your problem, Melbourne has a tram network, which is a but like a bus network. Though with frequency and capacity that buses couldn’t hope of effectively carrying.

What is being proposed here and what is working in many places around the world, including in car dominated USA is modern light rail. Different beast. So want to see that in action locally go to Sydney and look at the inner west extension there or go to the Gold Coast and see what they have done.

What I did in melbourne was simulate the canberra metro by taking a 12 km tram ride. The main point was that people got on and off the tram at frequent short intervals. There was a constant change in passengers. Over the 12km journey I noticed the whole passenger list change over 30 times. That led me to believe that an average 45 passengers, rotating 30 times equals 1350 fees. Now I would assume this is similar on the Gold Coast where the strip has locations where people will get on and off. In canberra however I am not sure this is going to be the case. I think most people will get on at gungahlin and off in the city. This is grossly different to the dynamics of the melbourne and Gold Coast systems. i don’t think many people will jump on at gungahlin and off at Harrison for example. Some may jump off at Mitchell but I am not too sure many will jump on at the industrial estate, they may near Watson. My point is that you can’t have an efficient system if people don’t rotate on and off. If people only get on along the way and everyone gets off at the end point it will need to be a long tram that starts empty and ends full. That’s not economically viable unless the ticket prices are really high to compensate. That will lead to people not using it. I am not sure canberra has the dynamic to suit a tram like melbourne or the Gold Coast.

rubaiyat8:21 am 18 Apr 15

Nightshade said :

rubaiyat said :

Nightshade said :

It’s possible in other cities, so why not here? I visit Sydney reasonably often, and travelling on long roads like the Pacific Highway, Lane Cove Rd, Pennant Hills Rd you get reds every so often, but stretches of green in between. In fact, on one occasion I drove 45 minutes across Sydney on major roads and got only 5 red lights. Try that in Canberra!

Sydney is congested enough through population without adding Canberra-style red lights at every intersection. No one would ever get anywhere. Canberra’s appalling lack of synchronisation is always so obvious when I arrive back in Canberra and drive down Northbourne Ave.

I also go to Sydney frequently and that is simply not true, except where they have stopped virtually all side traffic entering the main road. In fact you get ulcers in Sydney anticipating the imminent light change just before you get to it.

Rubaiyat, you can’t say that someone else’s personal experience is not true. Sydney is a large city – evidently your experience is different, but mine is as I stated. I find the (lack of) traffic light phasing in Canberra vastly more aggravating.

I’m from Sydney, living and working in many suburbs, and up until recently I still had a house in Dulwich Hill. I still spend a lot of time there at either my father’s or brother’s. I stand by what I said, and note that I qualified it for main roads. If all you are doing is driving on the main roads you may hit lucky, so long as it isn’t anywhere near peak hour, but if you need to cross, turn off or enter from side streets you are up for long waits.

Phasing as you put it will only work if the intersections are evenly spaced, which they aren’t, and the traffic moves at a steady speed with no hold-ups which it doesn’t. It is not like traffic is moving in only one direction, it approaches every intersection from at least two sides and if cars are turning all options are off.

After I have been in Sydney a while I tense up at traffic lights in Canberra in anticipation they’ll change as I approach but mostly they don’t.

People’s perceptions are very flexible when it suits them.

I regularly have to drive up Canterbury Road, River Road, the Hume Hwy, Parramatta Road, Pennant Hills Road, Military Road and the Northern Beaches, the Princes Hwy, Mona Vale Road, Epping Road, Victoria Road, Lane Cove and Delhi Roads as well as the Pacific Hwy. All best avoided in peak hours.

Maybe you can let us in on your smooth flowing Sydney roads so we can all use them.

rubaiyat2:14 pm 17 Apr 15

Nightshade said :

rubaiyat said :

gazket said :

Northbourne ave wouldn’t be so congested if they set the traffic lights up so traffic flowed . Traffic lights are set up in Canberra so you have to make a stop at every set. The chances of getting 3 green lights through 3 intersection in a row is very very very slim.

If wishes were horses…

Everybody thinks that is possible, but given traffic flow is cross connected and the pace at which people move from one set of lights to the next is random, that simply isn’t possible.

It’s possible in other cities, so why not here? I visit Sydney reasonably often, and travelling on long roads like the Pacific Highway, Lane Cove Rd, Pennant Hills Rd you get reds every so often, but stretches of green in between. In fact, on one occasion I drove 45 minutes across Sydney on major roads and got only 5 red lights. Try that in Canberra!

Sydney is congested enough through population without adding Canberra-style red lights at every intersection. No one would ever get anywhere. Canberra’s appalling lack of synchronisation is always so obvious when I arrive back in Canberra and drive down Northbourne Ave.

I also go to Sydney frequently and that is simply not true, except where they have stopped virtually all side traffic entering the main road. In fact you get ulcers in Sydney anticipating the imminent light change just before you get to it.

I have also been in the nightmare traffic jams in Sydney the one where it takes over an hour to creep 2 or 3 km to the next major intersection, so I hardly think Sydney is anything but a warning to even the deafest and most blinkered of Canberra motorists.

Like most cities Sydney has poured countless billions into nasty freeways surrounded by high concrete walls that build deadly barriers around all the communities, polluting and causing a never ending noise whilst doing a shocking job of actually getting people around. So much so, that despite public transport getting the breadcrumbs nearly every single station, even the new outer ones, is almost instantly surrounded by high rise accommodation because people so want to avoid the roads if they at all can.

Because of the failure to invest in rail due to the interference from politicians and senior public servants who don’t use it, Sydney has choked itself on buses that use the same problematic roads as all the other vehicles and pour out the same fumes and noise that ruins the city even further.

JC9:27 pm 16 Apr 15

Weatherman said :

JC said :

Weatherman said :

The style of urban construction in Canberra is derivative of design and architecture in the suburbs that originally had railways included within the various aspects that were mostly origintated from United Kingdom, and cities in Australia that already have railways, such as Melbourne, Sydney, Brisbane and so on. The infrastructure, such as roads were constructed many decades ago. At that time, the population may not have sustained railway patronage.

Not true. Modern day Canberra, essentially the Y plan was unique to Canberra, and was derived from a report by a Pom named Lord Holford and designed by a yank named Alan Voorhees. The basic idea was satellite towns, where for the most part everyone lived, worked and played in their own area without much need to go elsewhere.

Canberran aspects are similar to the Garden City architecture of Sir Ebeneezer Howard. Though the architecture and design are derivative from British aspects. Modern day Canberra will also have American aspects too, amongst other new world influences in urban planning and design and architecture, such as the Brutalist style of urban architecture and design of construction that is commonly found amongst Belconnen office towers. Many of the inner metropolitan roads were based on schematics from American road designers, hence why many of the on-ramps and off-ramps too Parkes Way and Glenloch Interchange appear confusing to people who are accustomed to only driving on the left-hand side of the road from the imperial system.

It may well have been,and of course the Burley Griffin plan for what is now the inner suburbs was based on this principle of town planning.

However the Y plan which came much much later and which forms the basis of modern day Canberra was unique, and at no point included any scope for rail transport. Indeed the only transport was in the form of ‘highways’ to interconnect the townships.

As mentioned the Y plan ws devised by a Pom, again no doubt with Garden City influences and the practical implementation was by a Yank and an Australian at the NCDC, at a time when the car was ‘the future’ with clear American influence. Though some things people blame on American designs (the old Belconnen interchange for example) are for the most parts fallacy.

dungfungus11:17 am 16 Apr 15

JC said :

rubaiyat said :

As difficult as it is to coach people on a subject they obviously haven’t given any thought, or shown any interest in, transport planning should not be left to politicians and commercial interests.

Roads are extremely expensive, but slide past people’s bad maths and their knack for ignoring the bait and switch reality. Roads get built to choke up. Dividing cities and communities and fouling our lives with pollution and noise as well as killing and maiming a lot of people and wildlife. They get worse over time and consume ever more of our cities, countryside and resources.

Rail provides a huge capacity in very compact corridors. Rail moves people. Not 1+ tonne vehicles which consume a lot of space and cost when moving, and for the vastly greater time that they are only stored. Passengers do not need to haul the trains/trams wherever they go, any more than EVERY occupant in a high rise needs to carry a ladder with them and keep it handy just to get around.

Rail’s capacity and efficiency starts high and grows without too much change to the transport corridors. Light Rail can run more frequently or add carriages, as is already happening in America’s 2nd generation of Light Rail. Washington is in the process of extending its light rail stops to allow for 3 car light rail, and the 4 car light rail that will succeed that.

Most importantly Rail uses electricity which can be provided in most cases from local resources and does not pollute. It does not pollute the streets it runs in and can be sourced so it does not send money overseas and pollute the planet. The solar power the ACT is using is not getting more expensive over time. It is actually getting cheaper. Sunlight is free, doesn’t have to be hauled long distances and is not subject to geo-political or market forces.

When the ultimate carbon crisis bites, the cost of fixing all the problems that have been caused by people sticking their heads in the sand will be astronomical in both monetary and social consequences. We have only had a small taste of it so far. But the short sightedness of people and their politicians means they won’t remember how stupid they were, any more than they could see where that stupidity was leading them in the first place.

+1 Common sense post.

Most of the aforementioned factors favouring light rail do not apply to Canberra. Buses are doing the job adequately for the few that need and can do with public transport. The customers may try the sexier trams for a while but the same numbers of public transport users will prevail or fall off as they have been doing.
The local electricity from the Canberra landfill does pollute at its source and the solar source doesn’t seem to work at night.
What ultimate “carbon crisis” is being referred to? The world has never looked greener, actually.

JC10:19 am 16 Apr 15

rubaiyat said :

As difficult as it is to coach people on a subject they obviously haven’t given any thought, or shown any interest in, transport planning should not be left to politicians and commercial interests.

Roads are extremely expensive, but slide past people’s bad maths and their knack for ignoring the bait and switch reality. Roads get built to choke up. Dividing cities and communities and fouling our lives with pollution and noise as well as killing and maiming a lot of people and wildlife. They get worse over time and consume ever more of our cities, countryside and resources.

Rail provides a huge capacity in very compact corridors. Rail moves people. Not 1+ tonne vehicles which consume a lot of space and cost when moving, and for the vastly greater time that they are only stored. Passengers do not need to haul the trains/trams wherever they go, any more than EVERY occupant in a high rise needs to carry a ladder with them and keep it handy just to get around.

Rail’s capacity and efficiency starts high and grows without too much change to the transport corridors. Light Rail can run more frequently or add carriages, as is already happening in America’s 2nd generation of Light Rail. Washington is in the process of extending its light rail stops to allow for 3 car light rail, and the 4 car light rail that will succeed that.

Most importantly Rail uses electricity which can be provided in most cases from local resources and does not pollute. It does not pollute the streets it runs in and can be sourced so it does not send money overseas and pollute the planet. The solar power the ACT is using is not getting more expensive over time. It is actually getting cheaper. Sunlight is free, doesn’t have to be hauled long distances and is not subject to geo-political or market forces.

When the ultimate carbon crisis bites, the cost of fixing all the problems that have been caused by people sticking their heads in the sand will be astronomical in both monetary and social consequences. We have only had a small taste of it so far. But the short sightedness of people and their politicians means they won’t remember how stupid they were, any more than they could see where that stupidity was leading them in the first place.

+1 Common sense post.

JC9:57 am 16 Apr 15

dungfungus said :

JC said :

dungfungus said :

Do you mean Canberra was designed for the motor car?

The modern Y plan Canberra was indeed built for the car. Except there are two locations in Canberra that weren’t.

Location one is the area that formed the original Burley Griffin plan, essentially what we now call North and South Canberra.

The 2nd is much much newer, building started sometime in very late 1989 or early 1990 and is known as the township of Gungahlin. In particular the stretch of development from the town centre to the Federal Highway. You know the bit where they plan to build light rail.

Yes, the tram track to Canberra City where there is this ministerial assumption that everybody in Canberra works and plays.

There is no assumption of the like, this is a line you trot out all the time to denigrate the proposal.

Simple fact is everyone knows full well that not everyone works in the City, this city however is a major interchange point as well as being the biggest employment centre of Canberra. Also simple fact you cannot provide a direct bus, or light rail service from everyone home to every work place. Besides you need to start somewhere don’t you?

I would suggest you go to the City bus interchange one morning and look at who gets on and off buses, you might be surprised. Start by standing on the corner of Northborne Ave and London CCT and look at the Xpresso buses from Belconnen. If so you will see that a good 80% of the passengers get off the bus there, and if you were to get on the bus half of those still onboard will get off at the next stop on Northborne Ave. Very few get on though (me sometimes), maybe due to the fact that buses do not run to timetable as they go through this stop, as I found out. Mostly they are early, they basically unload and go.

Likewise go to the 200 bus stop, heading towards Fyshwick and you will see a similar thing, though a reasonable number of people do get on.

So it’s not an issue for the buses, why is it an issue for light rail?

JC10:10 pm 15 Apr 15

churl said :

Bennop said :

Building Monash drive will get more traffic from gunghalin to northbourne, which will become a busier pinch point than it already is.

Not really. Monash Drive would run parallel to Northbourne down the West side of Mt Majura and Mt Ainslie, linking Federal Hwy / Gungahlin to Kings Ave and Morshead Drive at Russell. That would keep a lot of airport, Fyshwick, Parliament House, Monaro Highway etc traffic off Northbourne and out of Civic.

Umm that’s what Majura Parkway is meant to do.

The posters point is very valid, Monash Drive if it were built to the original plan, which was to connect with Phillip Ave, which in turn ends at Northborne, though as I said above was to go on through down what we now know as Flemming Road. But not possible now, so would create a pinch point on Flemmington Road, Federal Highway (which is what I think the OP means by Northborne Ave) and of course Phillip Ave.

If you were to run it around the back of Watson it would end up on the Federal Highway in the middle of nowhere, so how would it then get into Gungahlin? The logical place would have been to line up with Flemmington Road, but this option was basically lost the moment Phillip Ave was built because it was built with houses fronting it, so not suitable for an arterial road and then compounded when the winery was built.

Basically Monash Drive is no longer a viable road, and frankly not needed at all.

The other part of Gungahlin planning that doesn’t help is how Flemmington Road runs into the centre of the town centre and not around it, it should have run directly into Mirrabei Drive with the town centre built to the south of it. Likewsie Gundaroo drive should have been kept as a main road to Horse Park, and not changed to a ‘suburban’ road for the last KM as it has. And lastly Nuddur drive should have extended over Gungahlin Drive and onto Horse Park Drive, providing another boundry for the town centre.

Essentially these decision makes it hard for the southern part of Gungahlin to access Horse Park Drive, and for the western part to access Flemmington Road.

rubaiyat6:00 pm 15 Apr 15

As difficult as it is to coach people on a subject they obviously haven’t given any thought, or shown any interest in, transport planning should not be left to politicians and commercial interests.

Roads are extremely expensive, but slide past people’s bad maths and their knack for ignoring the bait and switch reality. Roads get built to choke up. Dividing cities and communities and fouling our lives with pollution and noise as well as killing and maiming a lot of people and wildlife. They get worse over time and consume ever more of our cities, countryside and resources.

Rail provides a huge capacity in very compact corridors. Rail moves people. Not 1+ tonne vehicles which consume a lot of space and cost when moving, and for the vastly greater time that they are only stored. Passengers do not need to haul the trains/trams wherever they go, any more than EVERY occupant in a high rise needs to carry a ladder with them and keep it handy just to get around.

Rail’s capacity and efficiency starts high and grows without too much change to the transport corridors. Light Rail can run more frequently or add carriages, as is already happening in America’s 2nd generation of Light Rail. Washington is in the process of extending its light rail stops to allow for 3 car light rail, and the 4 car light rail that will succeed that.

Most importantly Rail uses electricity which can be provided in most cases from local resources and does not pollute. It does not pollute the streets it runs in and can be sourced so it does not send money overseas and pollute the planet. The solar power the ACT is using is not getting more expensive over time. It is actually getting cheaper. Sunlight is free, doesn’t have to be hauled long distances and is not subject to geo-political or market forces.

When the ultimate carbon crisis bites, the cost of fixing all the problems that have been caused by people sticking their heads in the sand will be astronomical in both monetary and social consequences. We have only had a small taste of it so far. But the short sightedness of people and their politicians means they won’t remember how stupid they were, any more than they could see where that stupidity was leading them in the first place.

rubaiyat2:28 pm 15 Apr 15

dungfungus said :

Weatherman said :

The style of urban construction in Canberra is derivative of design and architecture in the suburbs that originally had railways included within the various aspects that were mostly origintated from United Kingdom, and cities in Australia that already have railways, such as Melbourne, Sydney, Brisbane and so on. The infrastructure, such as roads were constructed many decades ago. At that time, the population may not have sustained railway patronage.

Do you mean Canberra was designed for the motor car?

Yes. With amazing imagination and forethought. “Designed” being used in its loosest sense. Something that makes a a few of the older generations of Canberra Public servants extremely happy. Professionalism, ability and real world experience all being very threatening to them.

If we are ever forced off the oil teat, we are in real trouble. Not that long distance driving in a city with such small population isn’t a problem in itself.

Weatherman is referring to the New City designs from post war Britain, which usually had a railway station at the heart of them and provided pedestrian space around those for the regular commuters. All we got was the bleak, concrete windswept pointless emptiness and uncorrected orientation, so that nearly all our urban spaces face south, exposed to the chill winter winds and lie in the shadow of taller structures to the north.

The rail stations were replaced in Canberra with extremely repulsive bus stations with their blend of noise, diesel fumes, concrete, graffitti, filth and a soupçon of imminent petty crime. All located inconveniently away from where people really want to go on a painfully slow unco-ordinated system.

The only railway station was located, with absolutely no forethought, remote from the city centre, not even convenient to the centre of the suburb where they carelessly terminated the spur line. “No one” could predict how that would turn out.

So how have the Civic Centres, Belconnens, Tuggeranongs, Gungahlins and all the minor sub centres have been such triumphs of the human spirit? Surely being surrounded by acres of parking and concrete parking stations would be enough to inspire Canberrans to live their lives to the fullest!

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