Expanding Northbourne

Monorails are usually proprietary technology, and few have any lengthy service history without serious problems. Monorails also usually run in one direction (like Sydneys tourist monorail) so loops are required.

Light rail is a technology with dozens of different providers, all available off the shelf. Long term its costs are less than competing mass transit technologies, but the upfront cost is higher.

Further benefits of light rail can be found at the ACT Light Rail website http://www.actlightrail.info

A not very flattering letter about Northbourne in today’s SMH –

“Paint the town red

The drive into Canberra down Northbourne Avenue is one of the most depressing approaches to a city I have experienced (”Canberra’s burger battle: taste buds versus town planners”, April 27). The rundown and neglected apartment buildings are a disgrace. There is no inspirational architecture, apart from the War Memorial and Old and New Parliament House. It is a city without soul or atmosphere because no organic growth is allowed. The Little Red Van is exactly what the city needs.

Jenny Atkins Mosman”

Perhaps the burger van – and anyone else who wants to – should just set up shop at any intersection on Northbourne Avenue like the windscreen washers are allowed to. Who knows, lone female drivers may get a squirt of sauce whether they ask for it or not.

Light rail: $100 million just spent in Adelaide to build 2.8km of dual track. Long term solution, or Stanhope can go it alone and install a congestion charge in Civic/Braddon

Light rail is the best solution, but you need to solve problems with what you have available right now, and plan for longer term solutions.

The REDEX ‘rapid limited express’ trial needs to be supported by Gungahlin residents. Action havent released any figures yet (apart from media spin soundbites) but I am not sure how popular it has been. I conducted a totally unscientific study (see http://onfourwheels.blogspot.com/2009/12/redex-one-month-on-review.html ) and would like to see proper advertising and some more active promotion of this.

Sometimes Action gets it wrong, so when they take a bold step to do it right they should be supported. Every full bus takes 80 cars off northbourne twice a day.

Md said :

SolarPowered said :

steveu said :

…I would catch the bus if there was a way that I could get the kids to and from care/school and make it to work. Its simply not possible. I caught the bus to and from work before that. With parental responsibilities, I cant. I dont think I am alone in this.

Definitely not alone.

+1

definitely not alone – Make that three Steveu and Solarpowered.

It’s a common problem. I have it too.

SolarPowered said :

steveu said :

…I would catch the bus if there was a way that I could get the kids to and from care/school and make it to work. Its simply not possible. I caught the bus to and from work before that. With parental responsibilities, I cant. I dont think I am alone in this.

Definitely not alone.

+1

definitely not alone – Make that three Steveu and Solarpowered.

bd84 said :

There is probably merit in making the sidewalk wide and into a cycleway, the little green man can stay green when the traffic light in that direction is also green.

Useless to legal cyclists, dismount to cross when I’m doing high 30s (and I’m slow).
I’ll stay on the road where its safer.

Jim Jones

+ 1 Mono for sure, it really is taking toooo long travelling along Northbourne certain times of the day, as I live in the city.

I believe public transport is the key.

Light rail, buses, park and ride, transit lanes, whatever, bring it on and bring it on ASAP. The government is saying 50,000+ people in Gungahlin by 2016 (or maybe it was 2014), and I’m willing to bet they’re not all going to work in Gungahlin. Yes, some people will want to keep driving due to their various circumstances and that is fine, but lets try giving all the people who are just commuting by themselves a real alternative to driving.

“The Greens will pander to the SUV Gungahlin brigade”

Lived in Gungahlin for 15 years and still haven’t met these people you speak of.

Let me guess, you’re not from Gungahlin

Well something needs to be done as the current situation with bus stops in the left lane, cycle lane in the left lane and the other 3 compact lanes which cannot safely fit a large truck is not safe for anyone.

There is probably merit in making the sidewalk wide and into a cycleway, the little green man can stay green when the traffic light in that direction is also green. Having some sort of additional bus lane would make sense, it wouldn’t be sensible to turn a lane along there into a bus lane, it would just create more chaos. The centre path of the road is not used for anything or by anyone other than the various urbans services vehicles to commute across for whatever they do. If they keep the grass and trees it shouldn’t make much difference.

As has been said, any extra capacity on Northbourne will be filled in no time.

Park and ride facilites in the town centres are the only option. Regular express busses will take off if the parking is free or cheap at the town centres and the busses come regularly enough. Busses every 2 minutes are the only way around the “im a mum and have kids so have to drive” argument.

Then and only then are dedicated bus lanes on northbourne going to be any help.

As is happening with belconnen way, we need to start planning and implementing dedicated bus lanes on all main arterial roads ASAP. Canberra roads will grind to a halt if inter-towncentre single passenger commuting continues.

steveu said :

…I would catch the bus if there was a way that I could get the kids to and from care/school and make it to work. Its simply not possible. I caught the bus to and from work before that. With parental responsibilities, I cant. I dont think I am alone in this.

Definitely not alone.

+1

There is a world of difference in impact between a tramway and a bus lane down Northbourne! I stand by my comments about Bresnan.

I-filed said :

Utterly cynical. The Greens will pander to the SUV Gungahlin brigade, and happily trash the Burley Griffin avenue appeal down Northbourne. Note that there is no room for a two-way bus lane PLUS the TREES down Northbourne, folks!

I’ll say it again: Don’t forget that the median of Northbourne Ave (among others) was intended by Griffin to have “street cars” so having a busway would still be in line with that plan. You can’t invoke the “Burley Griffin avenue appeal” if you conveniently neglect that Griffin intended the median to be used for public transport.

And yes, there is no room for a two-way bus lane without disturbing the trees. Which is why that is not what is being considered. A one-way tidal flow busway is what is being investigated. At some place it could be two lanes wide (to allow for bus stops and breakdown bays), but in others it might only be a single lane. And that’s all that’s needed.

hax said :

Does EVERYONE need to work in Civic?

They keep adding more buildings, expanding the shopping center etc without changing the roads to accommodate the extra traffic (of any sort) so of course it’s just going to get worse.

Why not build a second ‘civic’ in Gungahlin, with easy access from Belconnen?

Be far better to locate it in Woden, because it’s far more central for the majority of people.

When there are so many real problems to deal with, why is it that politicians want to provide solutions where no problems exist? We recently discussed this with the crossing laws-enacted to solve a problem that didn’t exist, and now the Northbourne cycle lanes, which seem to me to function perfectly well without any problems, are to be ‘fixed’ when everything is working fine now.

Question.
Does Stanhope really think that high speed commuter cyclists are suddenly going to meekly accept being made into second class citizens by being forced onto off road paths with loss of priority, dodging pedestrians, and all the other reasons why so many cyclists prefer roads? Of course they won’t- they will stay on the road, and if the cycle lanes are removed you can blame Stanhope fair and square for all the hatred and aggression that’s going to cause. The man needs to see a psychiatrist if he thinks removing the cycle lanes is going to do anything accept cause a lot of trouble.

And, incidently, how is raising the speed limit back to 70 going to help people so gridlocked in traffic that they are only doing 30 or less anyway?

Light rail anyone?

Does EVERYONE need to work in Civic?

They keep adding more buildings, expanding the shopping center etc without changing the roads to accommodate the extra traffic (of any sort) so of course it’s just going to get worse.

Why not build a second ‘civic’ in Gungahlin, with easy access from Belconnen?

Jim Jones said :

Trunking symbols said :

Does this mean the speed limit on Northbourne heading south will be put back to 70km/h? As someone who was pinged by that damn speed/red light camera at the Antill St intersection I – and a lot of other victims – can only hope so.

Victims?

BWA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

The speed limit on that section of road was 70km/h since 1974 when metric speed limits were introduced. All of a sudden a few years back it was dropped to 60km/h due to the stupid cycle lane. The speed camera was introduced when the speed limit dropped in order to catch out people who’d spent a lifetime travelling at 70km/h along that section of road. If they’re not victims I don’t know who is.

Jim Jones said :

Trunking symbols said :

Does this mean the speed limit on Northbourne heading south will be put back to 70km/h? As someone who was pinged by that damn speed/red light camera at the Antill St intersection I – and a lot of other victims – can only hope so.

Victims?

BWA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

The speed limit on that section of road was 70km/h since 1974 when metric speed limits were introduced. All of a sudden a few years back it was dropped to 60km/h due to the stupid cycle lane. The speed camera was introduced when the speed limit dropped in order to catch out people who’d spent a lifetime travelling at 70km/h along that section of road. If they’re not victims I don’t know who is.

I heard Bresnan’s weasel words on ABC this morning. The Greens no longer represent sustainability and the environment. Bresnan referred to the need to relieve congestion for Gungahlin drivers. She endorsed the proposal to run a new BUS land down the median strip.

Utterly cynical. The Greens will pander to the SUV Gungahlin brigade, and happily trash the Burley Griffin avenue appeal down Northbourne. Note that there is no room for a two-way bus lane PLUS the TREES down Northbourne, folks!

Any Green worth their salt would be proposing that one of the traffic lanes be replaced with a bus lane; that the heritage and planning values of the avenue – and the trees – be preserved.

Sure, that will make Gungahlin drivers and inner-north residents along Ebden Street unhappy. But there’s no point forming a Green Party and then subsuming all your policies to the driver vote.

Thanks, but I’ll vote either of the major parties over the Greens if they won’t stick to a Green agenda.

Any attempt to ameliorate the congestion by increasing the number of lanes available to cars will be good for at most three years I reckon. Even without the continued growth of Gungahlin the added capacity would quickly be filled by those who currently travel by bus but would prefer to travel by car.

The problem needs lateral thinking and a boldness that unfortunately is not a hallmark of the Canberra road engineering fraternity.

A congestion charge, the option most hated by lazy car owners, is probably inevitable. So why not look at introducing it in Canberra? It need only apply from say 8.15 to 9.15am and 5.00 to 6.00pm initially. That would sort out those who really need to be occupying space on Northbourne Ave, and those who choose through laziness or greed to do so even though they could either catch buses or heaven forbid, cycle.

deece said :

it’s a 6km strip of road…. in an absolute worst case scenario – buses, bikes, red lights – you may be delayed a couple of minutes. move to melbourne or sydney! getting stuck in peak hour there can delay you by more than an hour…

cyclists will cycle on the road, regardless. the bike paths make this safer. surely this is a good thing, for both cyclists and drivers?

those ‘couple of minutes’ can be 30 or more on a good day. i can walk from dickson to the city in less time; for a planned city like canberra, this is a poor result, but one wonders if the next stanhope debacle will do much to actually fix anything. nuking gunghalin might help, but that might disrupt air traffic into and out of canberra for a few days, so mebbe not…

Shouldnt the first question be: why are people using Northbourne Ave. Followed by: is there a way to give them an alternative?

For example, if the congestion is due to people going to Barton, then a bus lane or whatever lane into Civic doesnt help that much. People are still going to drive down Northbourne. If people are going to west civic or east civic – can there be another way?

Personally i think a bike lane down the median strip would be good. A bus lane would be terrible – aesthically. But, also, all those people having to get to a bus stop in the middle of the road will have to use cross walks to get there. More people using the cross walks means either, or both (a) longer red light time or (b) more people getting run over

And whatever happened to that plan to make London Cct the main road with alternative (to Northbourne) routes for people to access it and then across the lake?

Keep the cycle lane! At least that way the lycra-clad brigade can be kept away from cars and buses. By all means upgrade the off-road paths, but don’t expect serious cyclists to use it rather than Northbourne Ave.

As to the bus lane or busway: other cities (Sydney, Brisbane, Adelaide) have proved that a dedicated busway can work and will attract more passengers. Don’t forget that the median of Northbourne Ave (among others) was intended by Griffin to have “street cars” so having a busway would still be in line with that plan.

A one-way tidal-flow busway (with minimal stops) along the median is the best compromise. It minimises the impact on the median while still providing a rapid transport solution. To work best, it would need traffic light priority so that the buses don’t need to stop at intersections or at least would not need to stop often. Using the inside lane as a contra-flow bus lane is just asking for trouble; much better to spend a little more money to get a superior solution.

Cyclists aren’t the problem here, the increase in traffic from Gungahlin to Civic with no infrastructure to compensate is where its all gone wrong. Limestone Ave is the only other option and has the same congestion issues.

Taking a lane will only increase frustrations however creating a fourth bus & T2 lane would be a good option except the trees would have to go … not something I’d like to see as they’re the only asthetically pleasing aspect of the trip.

The Greens with some intelligent ideas – who woulda thunk it?

First priority has to be the synchronisation of the traffic lights along Northbourne. My guess is that traffic flows could/should be able to improve by at least 20% if vehicles weren’t guaranteed of having to stop at every.. single.. traffic light.. all.. the way.. into.. town.

Secondly the pedestrian / cycle lane lights near Morphett St need to have their cycle modified, considerably lengthening the gaps between red lights for the motor vehicles. The length of the red light period is determined by the need for pedestrians & cyclists to cross the road – that much is not in question. The question is how frequently the lights need to change. This is the biggest cause of delays on the northern half of the road.

Thirdly, the idea of a park’n’ride at Mitchell is a really, really good one. However, it needs to have a dedicated express bus service, departing at 2 min intervals during peak hour with no more than 2 stops along the length of Northbourne Ave. The parking must be free – and must be guaranteed to remain free permanently. It’s never going to be ideal for everybody, but in a world where 90% of cars doing the peak hour crawl have only a single occupant it has to be able to take some of them off the road.

Finally, the idea of running the bike lane down the middle of the median strip is also a really good one. It separates the bikes from the cars & buses, which can only be good for the safety of the cyclists. Unlike a bus lane, it doesn’t require the destruction of 80% of the greenery down the middle of our ceremonial gateway. Cyclists wouldn’t have to worry about running into pedestrians either, as they’d remain on the footpaths on either side of the road.

The biggest problem is what to do with the cyclists at the intersections – Morphett St, Wakefield/Macarthur and Masson/Girrawheen. The latter two shouldn’t really be a problem – just install a set of lights specific to users of the bike path. The bike path lights go green when the north/south traffic lights on Northbourne are green, the bike path lights remain red whenever traffic is permitted to flow across the east/west link in the middle of the road (either for traffic going straight across, or traffic turning onto the east/west link roads). A little more thought might be required for the Morphett St link – maybe a bike overpass could be built?

Then again, the idea of getting cyclists to stop running the red lights might be a futile one, but let’s not go down that particular rabbit burrow.

Northbourne at the wrong time of morning can take up to 30 minutes – this is ridiculous for a 6km bit of road.

I like the idea of bikes/pedestrians in the median strip, but how would you deal with the intersections?

I would have a dedicated bus-lane for peak hour only, going in the wrong direction (eg = against the traffic). Kind of like the sydney harbour bridge lanes that can change direction according to traffic congestion on either side. Again I don’t know how the intersections would work though.

Or here is a radical plan – make Limestone Ave a single direction, and make nothbourne a single direction – like the streets in the centre of Hobart.

it’s a 6km strip of road…. in an absolute worst case scenario – buses, bikes, red lights – you may be delayed a couple of minutes. move to melbourne or sydney! getting stuck in peak hour there can delay you by more than an hour…

cyclists will cycle on the road, regardless. the bike paths make this safer. surely this is a good thing, for both cyclists and drivers?

Jim Jones said :

monorail … monorail … monorail … monorail …

Yes! Yes! Yes!

Trunking symbols said :

Does this mean the speed limit on Northbourne heading south will be put back to 70km/h? As someone who was pinged by that damn speed/red light camera at the Antill St intersection I – and a lot of other victims – can only hope so.

Victims?

BWA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

It’s the 21st century. Flying cars would solve all these problems. Where’s my flying car?

What about a mono bus, similar to the one they have in Xiamen, China? Then they won’t have to churn up the median strip.

““A broad, two-way path down the median strip would provide a pleasant, rapid and uninterrupted commute to and from Civic for people riding, and could also be used by people walking,” Caroline Le Couteur said.”

No thanks; I don’t want to send both a pedestrian and myself to hospital due to a collision at 40km/h.

Does this mean the speed limit on Northbourne heading south will be put back to 70km/h? As someone who was pinged by that damn speed/red light camera at the Antill St intersection I – and a lot of other victims – can only hope so.

It constricted traffic and reduced speed limits (which in turn reduces the number of cars that can transit in a given period of time).

While that seems “obvious” intuitively, it’s not necessarily correct. The variable speed limits on some Sydney roads, for example, exist in part because by lowering the speed limit, you allow vehicles to bunch up closer and brake less hard less often and this effect actually allows more traffic through than the higher speed limit. Obviously that effect doesn’t work for all possible reductions in speed limit (reducing it to 0 is hardly likely to improve traffic flow) but it’s an example of where what seems “obvious to everyone” isn’t actually the case. Not saying this effect occurred with the 10km/h drop on Northbourne, but I wouldn’t rule it out either.

How is getting busses and bikes off the 3 lane road, thereby freeing congestion for the cars, going to encourage people to use more busses and bikes?

Perhaps because riding a bike will no longer be a life-threatening duel with cars and catching a bus will bypass the remaining congestion? Not saying I like the idea of driving a lane through that lovely strip of grass down the middle, but to suggest it will discourage bus users is perhaps a bit disingenuous.

“this key arterial road is a bit congested” It’s hardly unusual for the main road in a city to be congested at times.

It’s about 6km from Dickson to Civic along Northbourne ave. Assuming an uniterrupted run, that is, you average the speed limit the enture way, which seems unlikely, it would take 6 minutes to travel this distance at 60KM/H (1KM/minute). At 70KM/h, is takes ~5.14 minutes (note, five point one-four, not 5 minutes, 14 seconds). Is less than a minute, in ideal conditions really so important that the speed limit should be increased?

Um, what was the speed limit along Northbourne before the cycle lanes? I find it hard to believe that the road between Civic and Southwell park would have been posted at anything other than 60km/h.

The speed limit used to be 70km/h.

I think destroying the median with a bus lane would be a travesty. It’s a very pleasant thing to have on the main road in/out of town. All that green space lost forever just to save a few minutes in the Canberra rush-half-hour? What a shame that would be.

Dumping a wide strip of concrete on the nature strip isn’t going to encourage cyclists off the road. Sounds like an impending train wreck ala the King St Cycleway in Melbs.

I say flip the ideas around – turn the outside lane into a dedicated busway and give bikes the median.

It’s not the bike paths that are causing the traffic to be constricted; if the bike paths come into it at all then it comes down to how road users react to the conditions. But I could go on for an entire blog about that.

What I believe the issues to be:
• The left lane gets slowed down by buses needing to stop constantly
• The right lane gets slowed down by the amount of possible turn offs
• The middle lane is no good for anyone that actually works in Civic

Giving busses their own lane is aviable option as it would remove some interference with normal traffic. Failing a dedicated lane then look at spacing out the bus stops more effectively. (What is the point of the one right near Maccas? Walk the extra few bloody metres to the interchange). Also perhaps look at the synchronisation and timing of the lights. Give those intersecting roads a little bit less time, synchronise the Northbourne lights so that you don’t get through one set only to be stopped at another.

Relocating the bike paths will do zip all.

Postalgeek is spot on as well so +1 or whatever it is I do to give him props.

monorail … monorail … monorail … monorail …

Classic Stanhope. You couldnt stuff things up more in this city if you tried.
I would catch the bus if there was a way that I could get the kids to and from care/school and make it to work. Its simply not possible. I caught the bus to and from work before that. With parental responsibilities, I cant. I dont think I am alone in this.

Cheers

Steve

Bike lane didn’t constrict traffic. 30 000+ people living in Gungahlin did that. And frankly, it really isn’t that bad.

A better idea would be to put the busses down the middle of Northbourne and turn the left hand lane into a dedicated bike lane. How is getting busses and bikes off the 3 lane road, thereby freeing congestion for the cars, going to encourage people to use more busses and bikes?

Um, what was the speed limit along Northbourne before the cycle lanes? I find it hard to believe that the road between Civic and Southwell park would have been posted at anything other than 60km/h.

Speaking as someone who catches the bus along that road, I’m well in favour of having a bus lane there between say 7:30am – 9am. If they’re not playing dodgems with the cars – and anyone driving along there with a brain doesn’t use the innermost lane anyway during rush hour – they’d undoubtedly flow a lot better (and so would the car traffic, without the idiot stuck between two buses having to do an “emergency” lane change).

I for one would prefer to use a decent bus service than drive a polluting vehicle that requires money to sit in a spot for 8+ hours before I merrily pollute my way back home again. Decent public transport is the marker of a world-class city – sure, Canberra has a small population, but dealing with the urban sprawl by constantly saying MORE CARS WILL FIX IT is a zero-sum game.

There used to be four lanes down Northbourne?

Hmmm….. I wonder if three Hummer’s will fit side by side down Northbourne Avenue? For that matter three Double D’s?

Yes, agree fully with Postalgeek @ #1. I don’t regularly ride on Northbourne, but when I do I’ll be on the road, I reckon.

I’m all for separating cyclists from traffic, but the suggestion of sticking them onto widened footpaths running parallel to a trunk road will double/triple the intersections a cyclist will have to negotiate, depending on how many side roads and driveways there are, and thereby double/triple the chance of an accident. Not exactly a brainiac solution. I suspect cyclists seeking a direct path and the right-of-way afforded to cars travelling along a trunk road will continue to use the road instead of the paths, but without the marginal safety of the on-road cycle paths.